FramCanary 0 Posted November 24, 2008 Smith & Jones employ Keith Harris to find a buyer as they now seem intent on selling. Harris (an expert in brokering deals involving sale & aquisition of football clubs) has stated that investors in clubs can expect a return on capital of between 5% & 10%, with no requirement to invest further sums:“I have been able to demonstrate that if you do it correctly, the club should generate sufficient cash to fund itself,” he said. “So having bought it you shouldn''t have to put more money in unless you choose to. And you can generate a return of 5-10% in the value of the club every year over a period of seven to 10 years.”This alone, tells you all you need to know about how badly our club is being run. They have employed Harris, who (in turn) has effectively confirmed that the club is simply not being run correctly from a financial viewpoint.How ironic! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
blinded by the story 0 Posted November 24, 2008 Isn''t this how the Glazers bought Moan U? Borrow huge sums against the assets and then the club pays it back. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ellis206 0 Posted November 24, 2008 [quote user="FramCanary"]Smith & Jones employ Keith Harris to find a buyer as they now seem intent on selling. Harris (an expert in brokering deals involving sale & aquisition of football clubs) has stated that investors in clubs can expect a return on capital of between 5% & 10%, with no requirement to invest further sums:“I have been able to demonstrate that if you do it correctly, the club should generate sufficient cash to fund itself,” he said. “So having bought it you shouldn''t have to put more money in unless you choose to. And you can generate a return of 5-10% in the value of the club every year over a period of seven to 10 years.”This alone, tells you all you need to know about how badly our club is being run. They have employed Harris, who (in turn) has effectively confirmed that the club is simply not being run correctly from a financial viewpoint.How ironic![/quote]Utter rubbish, Harris has only dealt with Premier league clubs, which should be generating profit due to the high income that they receive, the fact that Norwich are operating at a loss doesn''t mean we are a badly run club, due to the fact that EVERY club in this league is operating at a loss each season. There is no money in this league, the only way we could start making a profit, is if we freed up our wage bill. Wish people would stop taking pot shots at our board when they clearly no nothing! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FramCanary 0 Posted November 24, 2008 [quote user="ellis206"][quote user="FramCanary"]Smith & Jones employ Keith Harris to find a buyer as they now seem intent on selling. Harris (an expert in brokering deals involving sale & aquisition of football clubs) has stated that investors in clubs can expect a return on capital of between 5% & 10%, with no requirement to invest further sums:“I have been able to demonstrate that if you do it correctly, the club should generate sufficient cash to fund itself,” he said. “So having bought it you shouldn''t have to put more money in unless you choose to. And you can generate a return of 5-10% in the value of the club every year over a period of seven to 10 years.”This alone, tells you all you need to know about how badly our club is being run. They have employed Harris, who (in turn) has effectively confirmed that the club is simply not being run correctly from a financial viewpoint.How ironic![/quote]Utter rubbish, Harris has only dealt with Premier league clubs, which should be generating profit due to the high income that they receive, the fact that Norwich are operating at a loss doesn''t mean we are a badly run club, due to the fact that EVERY club in this league is operating at a loss each season. There is no money in this league, the only way we could start making a profit, is if we freed up our wage bill. Wish people would stop taking pot shots at our board when they clearly no nothing! [/quote]Perhaps you could have a stab at explaining to all of us where the £26m of parachute & transfer monies have gone. Being a shareholder, I fully study each years Accounts (for what they are worth) - do you?. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Syteanric 1 Posted November 24, 2008 [quote user="ellis206"][quote user="FramCanary"]Smith & Jones employ Keith Harris to find a buyer as they now seem intent on selling. Harris (an expert in brokering deals involving sale & aquisition of football clubs) has stated that investors in clubs can expect a return on capital of between 5% & 10%, with no requirement to invest further sums:“I have been able to demonstrate that if you do it correctly, the club should generate sufficient cash to fund itself,” he said. “So having bought it you shouldn''t have to put more money in unless you choose to. And you can generate a return of 5-10% in the value of the club every year over a period of seven to 10 years.”This alone, tells you all you need to know about how badly our club is being run. They have employed Harris, who (in turn) has effectively confirmed that the club is simply not being run correctly from a financial viewpoint.How ironic![/quote]Utter rubbish, Harris has only dealt with Premier league clubs[/quote]Hull City.. not in the premiership when Harris brokered their deal... face it ellis the board have Ballsed up this football club!jas :) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FramCanary 0 Posted November 24, 2008 [quote user="ellis206"][quote user="FramCanary"]Smith & Jones employ Keith Harris to find a buyer as they now seem intent on selling. Harris (an expert in brokering deals involving sale & aquisition of football clubs) has stated that investors in clubs can expect a return on capital of between 5% & 10%, with no requirement to invest further sums:“I have been able to demonstrate that if you do it correctly, the club should generate sufficient cash to fund itself,” he said. “So having bought it you shouldn''t have to put more money in unless you choose to. And you can generate a return of 5-10% in the value of the club every year over a period of seven to 10 years.”This alone, tells you all you need to know about how badly our club is being run. They have employed Harris, who (in turn) has effectively confirmed that the club is simply not being run correctly from a financial viewpoint.How ironic![/quote]Utter rubbish, Harris has only dealt with Premier league clubs, which should be generating profit due to the high income that they receive, the fact that Norwich are operating at a loss doesn''t mean we are a badly run club, due to the fact that EVERY club in this league is operating at a loss each season. There is no money in this league, the only way we could start making a profit, is if we freed up our wage bill. Wish people would stop taking pot shots at our board when they clearly no nothing! [/quote]If this were true (which it isn''t) - why would Smith & Jones employ someone who has little or no experience in finding a buyer for an ailing championship club?. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WeAreYellows49 0 Posted November 24, 2008 [quote user="ellis206"][quote user="FramCanary"]Smith & Jones employ Keith Harris to find a buyer as they now seem intent on selling. Harris (an expert in brokering deals involving sale & aquisition of football clubs) has stated that investors in clubs can expect a return on capital of between 5% & 10%, with no requirement to invest further sums:“I have been able to demonstrate that if you do it correctly, the club should generate sufficient cash to fund itself,” he said. “So having bought it you shouldn''t have to put more money in unless you choose to. And you can generate a return of 5-10% in the value of the club every year over a period of seven to 10 years.”This alone, tells you all you need to know about how badly our club is being run. They have employed Harris, who (in turn) has effectively confirmed that the club is simply not being run correctly from a financial viewpoint.How ironic![/quote]Utter rubbish, Harris has only dealt with Premier league clubs, which should be generating profit due to the high income that they receive, the fact that Norwich are operating at a loss doesn''t mean we are a badly run club, due to the fact that EVERY club in this league is operating at a loss each season. There is no money in this league, the only way we could start making a profit, is if we freed up our wage bill. Wish people would stop taking pot shots at our board when they clearly no nothing! [/quote]Nope the club is run really well, the board are all gods and have never made mistakes, the club are making huge profits...............then we woke up and realised things really are bad. [:S] Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The Fish Seller 0 Posted November 24, 2008 [quote user="ellis206"] the fact that Norwich are operating at a loss doesn''t mean we are a badly run club, due to the fact that EVERY club in this league is operating at a loss each season. [/quote]This is not true, I suggest you check your source. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ex-greenoschin 0 Posted November 24, 2008 If you read the whole article Fram he was speaking generally not specifically our club and the vast majority of his experience is with Premier League clubs.Again you are spinning a statement from the guy and twisting his comments to slag off the board and suit your own agenda - and no, I''m not a fan of the board per se , but I am a realist!! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ellis206 0 Posted November 24, 2008 Which clubs are not running at a loss in this league then? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
blahblahblah 2 Posted November 24, 2008 Fram, have you stumbled upon the eventual outcome of employing Harris ? In this climate, with few potential buyers, they could end up using his guidance to avoid having to put their own money in. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ellis206 0 Posted November 24, 2008 [quote user="FramCanary"][quote user="ellis206"][quote user="FramCanary"]Smith & Jones employ Keith Harris to find a buyer as they now seem intent on selling. Harris (an expert in brokering deals involving sale & aquisition of football clubs) has stated that investors in clubs can expect a return on capital of between 5% & 10%, with no requirement to invest further sums:“I have been able to demonstrate that if you do it correctly, the club should generate sufficient cash to fund itself,” he said. “So having bought it you shouldn''t have to put more money in unless you choose to. And you can generate a return of 5-10% in the value of the club every year over a period of seven to 10 years.”This alone, tells you all you need to know about how badly our club is being run. They have employed Harris, who (in turn) has effectively confirmed that the club is simply not being run correctly from a financial viewpoint.How ironic![/quote]Utter rubbish, Harris has only dealt with Premier league clubs, which should be generating profit due to the high income that they receive, the fact that Norwich are operating at a loss doesn''t mean we are a badly run club, due to the fact that EVERY club in this league is operating at a loss each season. There is no money in this league, the only way we could start making a profit, is if we freed up our wage bill. Wish people would stop taking pot shots at our board when they clearly no nothing! [/quote]Perhaps you could have a stab at explaining to all of us where the £26m of parachute & transfer monies have gone. Being a shareholder, I fully study each years Accounts (for what they are worth) - do you?.[/quote]Well the season we got relegated, we had the highest wage budget in the league, it has been reduced each season, and its now at £8.5 million, you do the sums, you noticed our nice new stands at Carrow Road as well? or did someone give them to us for free? And at the start of the 2003 season, didn''t we take out a £15 million loan to refinance our debts? and what state was the club in before promotion? ONE season in the premiership does not account for 13 in the Championship. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
blahblahblah 2 Posted November 24, 2008 [quote user="Fram Canary"]Perhaps you could have a stab at explaining to all of us where the £26m of parachute & transfer monies have gone. Being a shareholder, I fully study each years Accounts (for what they are worth) - do you?.[/quote]Your statement above implies that you don''t believe that reading the accounts tells you where that money has gone. Being a shareholder, and studying each years'' accounts, where do you think the money has gone ? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Syteanric 1 Posted November 24, 2008 [quote user="ellis206"]Which clubs are not running at a loss in this league then?[/quote]QPR are one....I would imagine Bristol city are another as well...next question ellis...jas :) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Joanna Grey 0 Posted November 24, 2008 I look forward to FramCanary''s answer with interest. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Joanna Grey 0 Posted November 24, 2008 ....and if we are cherry-picking statements from Harris; Of English football''s general health Harris said many Championship clubs have serious problems and are losing money, caused substantially by the "huge gulf in income" between the two leagues. He believes that the debts of the Premier League clubs are not at "high-risk level" ...There you go, it''s a different world. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FramCanary 0 Posted November 24, 2008 [quote user="Delia S. Tickers"]....and if we are cherry-picking statements from Harris; Of English football''s general health Harris said many Championship clubs have serious problems and are losing money, caused substantially by the "huge gulf in income" between the two leagues. He believes that the debts of the Premier League clubs are not at "high-risk level" ...There you go, it''s a different world.[/quote]Only, we have had the income...........We have also had the offer of financial assistance from a billionnaire city fan.............Still, let''s pay Harris a few grand to put together a portfolio of interested parties!!!!!!Perhaps I''m wrong & the club is in the best possible hands! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
blahblahblah 2 Posted November 24, 2008 [quote]Being a shareholder, and studying each years'' accounts, where do you think the money has gone ?[/quote]Did you miss this question Fram ? I''d be interested in your answer. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Joanna Grey 0 Posted November 24, 2008 [quote user="FramCanary"][quote user="Delia S. Tickers"] ....and if we are cherry-picking statements from Harris; Of English football''s general health Harris said many Championship clubs have serious problems and are losing money, caused substantially by the "huge gulf in income" between the two leagues. He believes that the debts of the Premier League clubs are not at "high-risk level" ...There you go, it''s a different world.[/quote]Only, we have had the income...........We have also had the offer of financial assistance from a billionnaire city fan.............Still, let''s pay Harris a few grand to put together a portfolio of interested parties!!!!!!Perhaps I''m wrong & the club is in the best possible hands![/quote]Well, you should know, you''re a shareholder with access to the Accounts, I''m not. Give us a quick run-down of where the money has been wasted over the years will you? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FramCanary 0 Posted November 24, 2008 [quote user="ellis206"][quote user="FramCanary"][quote user="ellis206"][quote user="FramCanary"] Smith & Jones employ Keith Harris to find a buyer as they now seem intent on selling. Harris (an expert in brokering deals involving sale & aquisition of football clubs) has stated that investors in clubs can expect a return on capital of between 5% & 10%, with no requirement to invest further sums:“I have been able to demonstrate that if you do it correctly, the club should generate sufficient cash to fund itself,” he said. “So having bought it you shouldn''t have to put more money in unless you choose to. And you can generate a return of 5-10% in the value of the club every year over a period of seven to 10 years.”This alone, tells you all you need to know about how badly our club is being run. They have employed Harris, who (in turn) has effectively confirmed that the club is simply not being run correctly from a financial viewpoint.How ironic![/quote]Utter rubbish, Harris has only dealt with Premier league clubs, which should be generating profit due to the high income that they receive, the fact that Norwich are operating at a loss doesn''t mean we are a badly run club, due to the fact that EVERY club in this league is operating at a loss each season. There is no money in this league, the only way we could start making a profit, is if we freed up our wage bill. Wish people would stop taking pot shots at our board when they clearly no nothing! [/quote]Perhaps you could have a stab at explaining to all of us where the £26m of parachute & transfer monies have gone. Being a shareholder, I fully study each years Accounts (for what they are worth) - do you?.[/quote]Well the season we got relegated, we had the highest wage budget in the league, it has been reduced each season, and its now at £8.5 million, you do the sums, you noticed our nice new stands at Carrow Road as well? or did someone give them to us for free? And at the start of the 2003 season, didn''t we take out a £15 million loan to refinance our debts? and what state was the club in before promotion? ONE season in the premiership does not account for 13 in the Championship.[/quote]Can we assume that (in your opinion) the squads employed by the club in recent years have been worthy of such excessive salaries?.We were told by the club (several times via ND) that the club had negotiated agreements with all of it''s first team squad, that their salaries would resort to their championship level if we were to suffer relegation from the premier league. Clearly this was not the case, as evidenced in the Accounts & touched on in your post. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FramCanary 0 Posted November 24, 2008 [quote user="Delia S. Tickers"][quote user="FramCanary"][quote user="Delia S. Tickers"] ....and if we are cherry-picking statements from Harris; Of English football''s general health Harris said many Championship clubs have serious problems and are losing money, caused substantially by the "huge gulf in income" between the two leagues. He believes that the debts of the Premier League clubs are not at "high-risk level" ...There you go, it''s a different world.[/quote]Only, we have had the income...........We have also had the offer of financial assistance from a billionnaire city fan.............Still, let''s pay Harris a few grand to put together a portfolio of interested parties!!!!!!Perhaps I''m wrong & the club is in the best possible hands![/quote]Well, you should know, you''re a shareholder with access to the Accounts, I''m not. Give us a quick run-down of where the money has been wasted over the years will you?[/quote]The Turner''s would be able to give you an extensive list, but the Accounts only include a ''non-statutory'' P&L a/c, therby making minimum declarations.I have no doubt that most/all expenditure has been verified via audit, but internally there has been a mis-management of resources & some costs (including wages) are out of control.ND continues with this ''wages have been a burden''. This will be the case if you allow the manager to ''reward'' his squad of players with excessive salaries. Why are we unable to move Lappin on? - because all clubs that have shown an interest in him have been put off by his wage level. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Joanna Grey 0 Posted November 24, 2008 [quote user="FramCanary"]Why are we unable to move Lappin on? - because all clubs that have shown an interest in him have been put off by his wage level. [/quote]And there was me thinking it was because he was crap. Never knew this before, it''s amazing what "facts" the Accounts throw up. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FramCanary 0 Posted November 24, 2008 [quote user="Delia S. Tickers"][quote user="FramCanary"] Why are we unable to move Lappin on? - because all clubs that have shown an interest in him have been put off by his wage level. [/quote]And there was me thinking it was because he was crap. Never knew this before, it''s amazing what "facts" the Accounts throw up.[/quote]Mark McGhee (Motherwell Manager) - 9/08 ''Someone like Simon Lappin, whom we had here on loan last year, was available from Norwich, but we can''t get anywhere near his wages'' Scotland on Sunday.I''ve made my point. I agree to disagree with you. You will never convince me that the current board are doing a good job, & I am unlikely to convince you of the opposite!. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
blahblahblah 2 Posted November 24, 2008 [quote]I have no doubt that most/all expenditure has been verified via audit,but internally there has been a mis-management of resources & somecosts (including wages) are out of control.[/quote]You mention this, and then you bring up Lappin. Surely it''s not the player wages that are the problem Fram ? If it were, wouldn''t you have to suggest that maybe the problems are not of the boards'' making, but of the managers that bought the players ? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The Fish Seller 0 Posted November 24, 2008 [quote user="ellis206"]Well the season we got relegated, we had the highest wage budget in the league, it has been reduced each season, and its now at £8.5 million, you do the sums.[/quote]I''ve done the sums Ellis206 and my calculator tells me something doesn''t add up.Neil Doncaster tells us that this years '' budget'' is the highest we''ve ever had in this league.But in the year 2003-2004 wages accounted for 87% of our turnover according to Deloitte linkNow turnover that year was 13.92m pounds so 87% of that equals 12.11m pounds.Neil Doncaster tells us that this years budget is 8.5 million pounds.8.5 is actually less than 12.11 not more.So we have a problem. Either the CE is telling porkies or we are not comparing like for like in which case the sums are pointless exercises.I think the reality is that the real player wage budget is around the 5m mark and has been for a while, maybe dropping from 6-6.5m over the last two years. I think any other figure bandied about is obfuscating the truth and the truth is that when this year ends we will have reduced the ''player'' wage bill to 5m (which it is and always was anyway but the spin will be that the club have saved us by cutting back on a ''fictional'' budget of 8.5m these cutbacks being achieved by releasing certain players in January). In short if we sold any/some of say Bell, Fozzy,Chadders and Russell in January the Board could ''ensure the future of the club'' for another year (I''m sure that''s how it will be presented) by telling us they managed to reduce the wage bill by 3.5m when in truth there never was a budget of 8.5m but we needed to release a few players simply to balance the books on the lower 5m budget. I really anticipate (and might not be alone) that January will see our team weakened further and the excuse being given that the budget has to be reduced to 5m blah, blah, blah.... Many fans will be content/fooled just to hear that Bell had to go to bring the wage bill down to an acceptable level etc. etc. This might sound complicated and far fetched but it is my explanation for the financial black hole that exists at the club. There are many people with mortgages in this Country who paid their 5-10% deposit by having the seller inflate the price to 105-110% of the asking price thus allowing the lender to borrow "only" 90% of the ''new'' price. Most of the big banks approved such vendor deposit schemes and look where that has left them. I think the club has publicly overinflated the stated budget knowing that come january players can be sold without so much anger from the fans if it can be done in such a way as appearing to be the only way to avoid a further 3.5m worth of debt. Whether we would incur that debt without selling players is purely speculative,only the board know the truth but I think we would not.Doing the maths as the loanees account for just 15% of the player budget this leaves enough money in the kitty to pay 25 players just under 6 grand a week each (289k pa) and looking at our squad I don''t think we have got the equivalent of 25 players on that kind of money, if we have then somebody needs sacked and quickly.. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DEB (never forgotten) 0 Posted November 24, 2008 [quote user="ellis206"][quote user="FramCanary"]Smith & Jones employ Keith Harris to find a buyer as they now seem intent on selling. Harris (an expert in brokering deals involving sale & aquisition of football clubs) has stated that investors in clubs can expect a return on capital of between 5% & 10%, with no requirement to invest further sums:“I have been able to demonstrate that if you do it correctly, the club should generate sufficient cash to fund itself,” he said. “So having bought it you shouldn''t have to put more money in unless you choose to. And you can generate a return of 5-10% in the value of the club every year over a period of seven to 10 years.”This alone, tells you all you need to know about how badly our club is being run. They have employed Harris, who (in turn) has effectively confirmed that the club is simply not being run correctly from a financial viewpoint.How ironic![/quote]Utter rubbish, Harris has only dealt with Premier league clubs, which should be generating profit due to the high income that they receive, the fact that Norwich are operating at a loss doesn''t mean we are a badly run club, due to the fact that EVERY club in this league is operating at a loss each season. There is no money in this league, the only way we could start making a profit, is if we freed up our wage bill. Wish people would stop taking pot shots at our board when they clearly no nothing! [/quote]The apologists are out in force today! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The Fish Seller 0 Posted November 24, 2008 [quote user="ellis206"]Well the season we got relegated, we had the highest wage budget in the league, it has been reduced each season, and its now at £8.5 million, you do the sums.[/quote]So are you calling our Chief Executive Mr Doncaster a liar now Ellis?[8-)]You say it has been reduced each season and Mr Doncaster says it''s the highest ever this year.So who''s right and who''s wrong?[:D] Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The Butler 0 Posted November 24, 2008 Quck question Prisoner, were do Hucks wages fit in this? Did Moores pay him direct or the club pay him and Moores payed the club.It would make a slight difference to wage figures. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The Fish Seller 0 Posted November 24, 2008 [quote user="The Butler"]Quck question Prisoner, were do Hucks wages fit in this? Did Moores pay him direct or the club pay him and Moores payed the club.It would make a slight difference to wage figures.[/quote]I don''t know, I was actually looking for the answer to exactly that question and can''t find it. There''s an article here link where ND is attributing Hux''s wages towards the high overall wage bill but obviously that was written some time back before we all became aware that Mr Moore was involved in the deal. ND is also citing Harpers and Crouches wages as being contributary factors but since they were short term loanees I''m not convinced they impacted as severely as he might have us believe. The only thing of which I am in doubt is that our CE in particular likes to mix and match the different wage bills at the club and will even include the transfer budget if it suits his purpose, and as a result (not helped by the lack of detailed breakdown in the a/c''s) it is so difficult to find a true like for like figure one might almost believe they were doing it on purpose. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The Fish Seller 0 Posted November 24, 2008 That should have read:The only thing of which I am in NO doubt is that our CE in particular......... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites