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CambridgeCanary

Leadership - A conversation with a sage

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There is a little bit of a backstory so please bear with me.

On Thursday, I was working at a company where I am company secretary.   Part of the business is executive and leadership coaching.  For anyone unfamiliar with this , it is a process of working with a leader or group of leaders such as a  board to help that person to achieve more in their chosen field.  I emailed Neil Doncaster the day Peter Grant resigned to suggest that Peter get some coaching to help him cope.  I was too late.

I was talking to one of our leading consultants.  He is a sage who has published a number of books on leadership and especially on developing your strengths.  He coaches chief executives of some of the biggest names in business and also some of the biggest names in English football manangement.  Clients pay him/us thousands a day for his services.  I was talking to him about City and I thought his comments sufficiently interesting to share.   I guess if you don''t care, you would have stopped reading by now anyway.

The Sage - How''s it going?

CC- We are starting look good and have signed Sibierski.

S- You won''t achieve anyhting under Roeder.  He turns things round well but can''t sustain them.  He was the wrong appointment.  What Norwich needed was a good number 2 looking to step up.   I got straight on to.....(names number 2 at top  Prem Club) and told him to apply.  He didn''t make the shortlist.   That was a mistake.

CC- You have to remember that we had just had Peter Grant so we were unlikely to appoint another number 2.

S- Fair enough but Grant was a coach who was not suited to management.  That was always clear.  Other number twos  are and Norwich needed fresh ideas and enthusiasm.

CC- Glenn has developed a USP by bringing in a lot of loans so we have a high quality playing squad through talented Prem youngsters.

S- That could work but you need leaders in the team because the youngsters will have the ability but will lack the experience when things get pressured.  Without support from experienced players they are unlikely to succeed

CC- Well last season we had Dion who has retired but Glenn did sign Stefanovic

S- He is just what you need he is a born leader who will take charge of things and could make all the difference.

CC- He''s not the captain though.

S- Doesn''t matter, he will take charge because of his personality anyway.  He is someone who knows what needs doing and will do it.   Remember leaderhip is not about titles but actions and he is a good leader.   Leaders come forward.   They do not wait to be appointed.    Who is the captain?

CC- Fotheringham (gives background)

S- Stefanovic will take control whether or not he is captain..  With him or someone as good as him around, the plan could work.   I still think Roeder is the wrong appointment for your club though.

CC - Well I hope you are wrong

We will all have our views on Glenn but  the Sage knows some top managers as well as anyone other than their wives so he has insight.   That may be of interest but his opinions on leadership are expert.   There were signs against Blackpool that Sef is taking charge and I am confident that he will be a huge influence.  His play against Birmingham was class.

Signs are really good on this front and I think Glenn has pulled a masterstroke in signing him.

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Thanks Cambridge;  v interesting and restates what I felt about the promotion side;  we had leaders through the team (not captains,  but players who inspire through their actions as well as their words) with Green, Malky, Holt and  Iwan - like stefanovic they were organisers and cajolers;  and that ability has been missing since promotion.  Leadership is unlike captaincy,  and good leadership is not about appoirtioning blame (eg flems main fault)

Stef looks the part;  we do need one in midfield and would hope that sibierski can add that up front and we may get there.

If this sage is so knowledgeable perhaps next time city need a manager they should pay for his services to help assess the candidates and create a winnig shortlist?  Ultimately though the applicant has to create a link with the employer which says we can work together. 

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I agree Zipper.  I wonder how many senior management jobs with salaries that can run into millions are appointed on the basis of an interview or two without expert assessment of personal history and qualities.   For most senior posts in commerce there psycological, psycometric and personality assessments.   There are tests for reactions to stress, unforeseen events and many other circumstances.

If someone has a drink problem, personality defects or is unstable, tests can show this.  

For football it is an interview about who you played for, what you won and what your plans for the team are.  There are more support resources coming like the Sage and another of our coaches who works with northern Prem and Champ team.   Management is still a lonely job for which few candidates are equipped.  There are a number who are reputed to be alcoholics.

Is it any wonder that so many managers fail?

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Excellent post CC, very interesting :) We could do with an experience midfielder now, we clearly know Stefanovic can marshall that defense blindfolded with his hands behind his back, Sibierski will indeed bring a greatly needed amount of experience and skill up front, perfect to help Loops mature as a striker, this leaves the midfield... all FAIRLY youngish to be capable of having captaincy... I wonder what David Bell would be like as a captain... in fact, i wonder what David Bell would be like in general... :)

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Oh Booger! Why didn''t you ask the ''Sage'' what he thought of our CE Mr Doncaster? I''d be very interested.......as I do think he''s parsley sell-by date.....and thyme he was shown the door.

Your name isn''t Rosemary, perchance?[:|]

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[quote user="CambridgeCanary"]

S- You won''t achieve anyhting under Roeder.  He turns things round well but can''t sustain them.  He was the wrong appointment.  What Norwich needed was a good number 2 looking to step up.   I got straight on to.....(names number 2 at top  Prem Club) and told him to apply.  He didn''t make the shortlist.   That was a mistake.

[/quote]It''s very interesting, but you have to think that the mystery number 2 is a client of the Sage (because he got straight on to him) whereas maybe he doesn''t know Roeder at all except by reputation, so he may be a bit biased. The evidence we''ve seen points to him being held in quite high regard by his former players, though no doubt there are disaffected ones out there. All this rumouring that Roeder''s not good enough, without any evidence, is getting me down. He failed at West Ham due to the arsehole players there, and due to his illness, and at NUFC because of the arsehole players (some of which are now at WHU). It''s interesting that both those clubs are now without a manager after serial instability since GR left - that rather points to something seriously wrong deep in those clubs (which have both also changed owners since he left), rather than the manager being to blame. Why can we never defend our own, but always look to undermine them?

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[quote user="Mello Yello"]

Oh Booger! Why didn''t you ask the ''Sage'' what he thought of our CE Mr Doncaster? I''d be very interested.......as I do think he''s parsley sell-by date.....and thyme he was shown the door.

Your name isn''t Rosemary, perchance?[:|]

[/quote]

No nor Basil!  Please don''t chive me any further.

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Has this ''Sage'' actually met these people who''s personalities he appears to have formed opinions about?

If not he''s no more qualified to talk about their leadership qualities or lack thereof than any member of this forum.

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[quote user="keyser Soze"]very interesting post ........ sounds like corporate bollox to me![/quote]

I thought everything ''corporate'' was bollox.....and pretentious, gratuitous back slappin (and stabbin'') to boot?

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[8-|][quote user="CambridgeCanary"]

There is a little bit of a backstory so please bear with me.

On Thursday, I was working at a company where I am company secretary.   Part of the business is executive and leadership coaching.  For anyone unfamiliar with this , it is a process of working with a leader or group of leaders such as a  board to help that person to achieve more in their chosen field.  I emailed Neil Doncaster the day Peter Grant resigned to suggest that Peter get some coaching to help him cope.  I was too late.

I was talking to one of our leading consultants.  He is a sage who has published a number of books on leadership and especially on developing your strengths.  He coaches chief executives of some of the biggest names in business and also some of the biggest names in English football manangement.  Clients pay him/us thousands a day for his services.  I was talking to him about City and I thought his comments sufficiently interesting to share.   I guess if you don''t care, you would have stopped reading by now anyway.

The Sage - How''s it going?

CC- We are starting look good and have signed Sibierski.

S- You won''t achieve anyhting under Roeder.  He turns things round well but can''t sustain them.  He was the wrong appointment.  What Norwich needed was a good number 2 looking to step up.   I got straight on to.....(names number 2 at top  Prem Club) and told him to apply.  He didn''t make the shortlist.   That was a mistake.

CC- You have to remember that we had just had Peter Grant so we were unlikely to appoint another number 2.

S- Fair enough but Grant was a coach who was not suited to management.  That was always clear.  Other number twos  are and Norwich needed fresh ideas and enthusiasm.

CC- Glenn has developed a USP by bringing in a lot of loans so we have a high quality playing squad through talented Prem youngsters.

S- That could work but you need leaders in the team because the youngsters will have the ability but will lack the experience when things get pressured.  Without support from experienced players they are unlikely to succeed

CC- Well last season we had Dion who has retired but Glenn did sign Stefanovic

S- He is just what you need he is a born leader who will take charge of things and could make all the difference.

CC- He''s not the captain though.

S- Doesn''t matter, he will take charge because of his personality anyway.  He is someone who knows what needs doing and will do it.   Remember leaderhip is not about titles but actions and he is a good leader.   Leaders come forward.   They do not wait to be appointed.    Who is the captain?

CC- Fotheringham (gives background)

S- Stefanovic will take control whether or not he is captain..  With him or someone as good as him around, the plan could work.   I still think Roeder is the wrong appointment for your club though.

CC - Well I hope you are wrong

We will all have our views on Glenn but  the Sage knows some top managers as well as anyone other than their wives so he has insight.   That may be of interest but his opinions on leadership are expert.   There were signs against Blackpool that Sef is taking charge and I am confident that he will be a huge influence.  His play against Birmingham was class.

Signs are really good on this front and I think Glenn has pulled a masterstroke in signing him.

[/quote]

 

The trouble with all this analysis is that it takes no account of when it hits the post and comes out and when it hits the post and goes in.

Like footballers it usually leaves analysist''s completely ***** unless they know better of course.

I''ve touched a ball on to a post and seen it come out.  I''ve touched a ball on to a post and seen it go in.

But I''ve had a lot  more fun destroying corporate careers and hope to destroy more in the future, if they give me the chance that is.

A very well known Minister is currently shagging away from home.  Some of us are working jolly hard on this and it seems a lot more fun than analysis whether football or politics.

[:P]

Whatever turns you on/rocks boats etc.

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Thanks, ''Sage''.  Good blue sky thinking.  Maybe if we incentivised the other players we could achieve real wall-climbing growth in key slices of the pie.

Good to know the Charlatans are still making an...honest...living, anyway.

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A good story but I would question part of your sage''s thinking - a good deputy does not necessarily make the leap into being the best in the top job. There are several well known assistant managers within football who are extremely well respected for their abilities/skills/leadership who recognise this and have stayed in that position - the best example is Terry McDermott at Newcastle although with green and yellow specs Mark Bowen, Ian Crook and Mike Phelan all seem to fall into that category.

I also believe that from the way that Glenn is tackling the role at Norwich he has learnt from what has happened in his previous clubs and the "second season crisis" will not happen here. 

Perhaps the Sage could consider the position that the management/leadership at Norwich were in at the time of his appointment - having waited too long to ask a man with no more ideas to move on they had had their fingers burnt by experimenting with an untried number 2 who was at least honourable enough to know that it had failed. At this stage the Board needed a manager rather than a leader - and an experienced, disciplinarian not afraid to speak his mind at that to build empathy with the fans. To that extent Glenn fitted the bill perfectly.

The reason why the Sage and his company exists is because Leaders have to learn to manage (as they tend to have a dream but no knowledge/interest in the detail) and Managers need to know how to lead (as they have a plan but no interest in inspiring/driving the team) and there is a need for balance. To this extent what I have seen so far in the two home games this season we now have that balance. The team is not built around one/two prima donnas any more and the approach of the management with Glenn only on the touchline in the second half works as it allows fresh ideas to be injected and plans B, C and D to be developed if needed. At the moment we have no heroes but they will emerge - Hux made an instant impact and I think the latest players will slowly win the confidence of the fans and become legends in their own right and that too helps develop the team.

I appreciate the sage was simply in conversation rather than analysis but I think that the club is getting there - if he is paid "thousands" for his services he will be worth loadsamoney - perhaps he has a spare £1.5m that he can loan for a live management experiment?[:)]

 

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S- You won''t achieve anyhting under Roeder.  He turns things round well but can''t sustain them.  He was the wrong appointment.  What Norwich needed was a good number 2 looking to step up.   I got straight on to.....(names number 2 at top  Prem Club) and told him to apply.  He didn''t make the shortlist.   That was a mistake.

Lee Clark

 

S- That could work but you need leaders in the team because the youngsters will have the ability but will lack the experience when things get pressured.  Without support from experienced players they are unlikely to succeed

Stefanovic, Cureton, Rusty, even the Doc... all experienced players who can nuture the youngsters through.

 

S- Doesn''t matter, he will take charge because of his personality anyway.  He is someone who knows what needs doing and will do it.   Remember leaderhip is not about titles but actions and he is a good leader.   Leaders come forward.   They do not wait to be appointed.    Who is the captain?

- SPot on!

 

Couple of things i agree with but the 1st 2 points make it clear that "the sage" doesnt know a great deal about the club....

jas :)

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[quote user="jas the barclay king"]

 

S- You won''t achieve anyhting under Roeder.  He turns things round well but can''t sustain them.  He was the wrong appointment.  What Norwich needed was a good number 2 looking to step up.   I got straight on to.....(names number 2 at top  Prem Club) and told him to apply.  He didn''t make the shortlist.   That was a mistake.

Lee Clark

 

S- That could work but you need leaders in the team because the youngsters will have the ability but will lack the experience when things get pressured.  Without support from experienced players they are unlikely to succeed

Stefanovic, Cureton, Rusty, even the Doc... all experienced players who can nuture the youngsters through.

 

S- Doesn''t matter, he will take charge because of his personality anyway.  He is someone who knows what needs doing and will do it.   Remember leaderhip is not about titles but actions and he is a good leader.   Leaders come forward.   They do not wait to be appointed.    Who is the captain?

- SPot on!

 

Couple of things i agree with but the 1st 2 points make it clear that "the sage" doesnt know a great deal about the club....

jas :)

[/quote]

Consultants? Pah - waste of space. I''ve known consultants recommend a site for a new factory because it was next to a whorehouse.

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I returned to this thread because of the leaders thread and found ALL the posts very interesting in view of where we are now (apart from Mello''s customary interjection which would be the same irrespective!!).

Roeder failed as predicted and against my expectations at that time.

More crucially, the lack of leadership once Stef was injured is obvious.  The younger players have looked lost, the more experienced players have not taken charge (sorry Jas but I can see why you said it - they should have done!!) and the captain has failed and gone.

If ever leadership off the pitch is essential it is now.  I do not know enough about the management team to know who or whether.  Perhaps our biggest loss is Lee Clark.

But, for those who casll for the youth players to get a chance, there has to be a balance and we need older players to balance and influence the young.

Zipper and I have been banging on about this for ages but the real issue remains leadership.  Napoleon used to ask about a general "Is he lucky?". 

For all new players, the question should be "Can he lead?"

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