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Rossi

why i hate being right so far

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I cant remember what game it was last season, but collectively as a family we all went home after another depressingperfomance, looked at each other and commented if the pain was really all worth it.i hated the decision we came too, despite faith that GR would keep us up, NCFC would need to look up on their waiting list for 4 new season ticket holders.i know i''ll gt stick for not apparently being yellow and green through and through, and it wasnt 100% a financial decision is was the reality that Delia and the rest of the board, for all of her good things, can no longer finance the club in the way that it needs and was far too ensconsed in her financially shaping the club to make new investment nigh on impossible. we''ve have a good season and two good half seasons in her tenure and throughout we''ve (bar Ashton) shopped at Primark on the provisio of being ''prudent'' I''ve argued all the way through that yes you have to be sensible, but equally you have to gamble - and that this football club just cannot handle any form of expectation. I came to the end of my tether about being patronised - i dont need telling how great the fans were and are, i dont need to be lied to and have roger mumbles claim the realistic aim of the club is european football. i dont want to be told about revenue streams. We''re quite happy to buy parcels of land and wait for price raises and sell off for developments - but we aint flamin happy to spend money on an up and coming player and then sell them on for a profit and have the benefit of at least wtching some talent on the pitch as opposed to views off Romford when the footballs rubbish and the mind wonders. We seem to have lost the reality that the the best revenue stream in a world of inflating player prices and everything else that we moan about is academy players and by buying good players and selling them on - we seem to have lost the plot when it comes to players - we only seem to want to buy players that wont leave us unless we want them to. The problem with that is if a better club doesnt want your players, its because they are not good enough. The best business we''ve done ona player is when we paid the going rate - whether you liked ashton or not, fact is we made good money on him, and he gave us some great moments.its not rocket science to work out that there are a few must have''s to get out of this division and a tall striker is as important as as important gets. NCFC seem to think that other clubs are thick and they don''t realise how in demand a tall striker is. Time and time again we''ve been told someone is too expensive and so on. The reality is if you wont pay it someone else will and if you dont take the risk and end up dropping a division the financial scenario becomes a whole lot worse.So many times last season without Dion as an outlet we had no plan b, it was clear that we needed a second striker in his mould to take the pressure off him and be able to stand in when his legs needed resting. every single person in the ground new dion was going to go on forever, indeed he saidmonths in advance it woul dbe his last season,yet the club still did nothing about finding money for a replacement. We''ve heard the need for competition of places, but if we ever get a tall striker, he''ll be the only one. One of the most important positions in any championship club is the tall striker, surely we need to be able to cover loss of form,suspensions, injuries and so on.The board, as i thought, have learnt absolutely no lessons at all from last year - whilst the squad may have more depth and marginal more quality we still dont have anyone to be able to head the ball in the top half of the field, to hold the ball up, take the pressure off the defence, especially when we are playing away. This game aint flamin skating or gymnastics, there aint any points for artistic interpretation. Knock the ball around the pitch nicely is all well and good but its the ball in the back of the net that puts 3 points on the board. Yes we can moan about missed chances, but all teams miss chances, and if they miss too many, they are not good enough, pure and simple. remember the ashton quote, any striker that cannot score from 12 yards (ie a penalty) isnt doing his job, wonder what he would have thought about missing the target completely?And whilst i''m still on my soapbox, what the heck have the turners brought to the party? Get out the lot of ya before you put any more money into assets off the pitch to protect yourselves from a buy out - come up with ideas on how to bring in new investment not in how to come up with ideas on why we should say no. i may not be at FCR, but it breaks my heart. Andy Cullen is no mug, hes done all he can and now he sees the writing on the wall - relegation orf another bad season and there will be many more empty seats (that will no doubt be blamed on the credit crunch) In MK Dons he''s going to what is one of the clubs going somewhere at the moment. If we were knocking on the door of the play offs and or the prem would he being going, would he heck. He sees a downward slide ahead and a career move needs to be made.Rant Over. {Please accept my apologies)

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Entitled to your opinion, but IMO you haven''t been "right" so far at all. 

IMO the performance yesterday was as good as any in the last 2-3 seasons, simple as that.  One more decent striker and similar performance levels and we will be laughing, but clearly not with you in the ground! 

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[quote user="Branston Pickle"]

Entitled to your opinion, but IMO you haven''t been "right" so far at all. 

IMO the performance yesterday was as good as any in the last 2-3 seasons, simple as that.  One more decent striker and similar performance levels and we will be laughing, but clearly not with you in the ground! 

[/quote]That sums up the past few seasons branston - thats my point. its always we just need that final piece, we dont need a final piece, we need money to buy the final piece, and to be in control of our destiny by having a settled squad one that we prodominantly own not loan.

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No, you''re right. If the team does eventually start getting results and some serious points on the board I certainly won be thanking the board. It will be all down to Roeder. That man deserves a medal for what he is achieving here. The sad thing is alot of people will misenterpret such success as having a successful board and of course the board will lord it up as they always do when results go the right way. The board are PATHETIC.

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I completely understand where you''re coming from.  I made the same decision two seasons ago and I''ve hated being right ever since.

Loyalty is a two way process, and in exchange for shelling out for season tickets we have a right to expect the club to do everything humanly possible to ensure that we punch our weight as a football club.  If they don''t keep their side of the bargain the deal is off as far as I''m concerned.  And they haven''t.  Instead they have done everything humanly possible to get us to accept "poor little Norwich".

It won''t have escaped your notice that we have yet to take the lead in any of our five games this season.  We have clawed back three draws after going behind, and the manager and players deserve every credit for doing so.  But we can''t keep doing that, and it''s a sure sign of an understrength squad.  Very reminiscent of our season in the Prem in fact.  But this isn''t the Prem, and we have a right to expect better and so does Glenn Roeder.

Your instinct in refusing to accept mediocrity is spot on Rossi.  More power to your elbow. 

 

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Rossi - This football club has always "shopped at Primark". It''s not this last few seasons and not just this board. It''s kind of written on the tin when you buy your season ticket that we will sell players for top prices and replace them from the bargain basement. We sold our first player for 1m in 1980. Since then we have sold over 20 players for over 1m and bought just 4 for 1m+ that I can remember. 3 of those 4 have been in the last 4 seasons.

You probably need to find another club.

 

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A great post Rossi and must have been difficult to make that decision. I made a similar one much earlier on in the Delia reign when she got rid of Mike Walker. I didn''t make that decision lightly and tormented myself for it, and eventually came back hoping things had changed. On the pitch they did for a time, but at the top I tend to agree with you, not much has changed fundamentally with the boards'' attitude.

The football yesterday was fantastic - the first half so good it could make you weep and for me the mere fact that we could be even better for the sake of a bit more investment (and the board continually bleating about no money while turning down the opportunity of investment cuts no ice with me) and a bit more guile and ambition we could have a side to get something special out of this season. The philosophy of Mr Roeder is great and good, but he can''t do it all alone, I don''t have the faith in the board that they will back him. They will say we have no money, but still not tell us why they turned down the prospect of some serious investment.

I don''t want to leave as I love my football and the prospect of not going I can''t consider at the moment, we all have our breaking points, and I completely respect that you have reached yours. No, you are not a fickle or half baked fan, though some may call you that. There is a world of difference between yourself and several others on here who say they don''t go for the same reasons as you, but continually snipe at the club for any reason whatsoever. Your reasons seem to me anyway well thought out and well articulated.

I feel sorry for you and your family. I feel sorry for the present manager who is working under these constraints and performing small miracles. He''s not God, he''s made mistakes but he''s proving he can create a half decent team, but not complete the jigsaw without some money and crucial backing from the board. Will we get that? It remains to be seen.

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[quote user="nutty nigel"]

Rossi - This football club has always "shopped at Primark". It''s not this last few seasons and not just this board. It''s kind of written on the tin when you buy your season ticket that we will sell players for top prices and replace them from the bargain basement.

You probably need to find another club.

 

[/quote]i accept what you say nutty but i feel we''velost the ability to spot a player and then sell them for good money - i dont mind that and would rather we did that than buy land for example.quite frankly your suggetion about finding another club is pathetic and nonsical, but does follwo our clubs pr rush over the past few years, you''re either with us or against us, just looks like you''ve been brainwashed - poor chap

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[quote user="thecanaryfan"]No, you''re right. If the team does eventually start getting results and some serious points on the board I certainly won be thanking the board. It will be all down to Roeder. That man deserves a medal for what he is achieving here. The sad thing is alot of people will misenterpret such success as having a successful board and of course the board will lord it up as they always do when results go the right way. The board are PATHETIC.[/quote]

Thank you TCF, you have hit the nail squarly on the head. The underlying truth is that out of those players who did so well for us on the pitch yesterday, Lupoli/Bertrand/Kennedy don''t belong to us and neither did OJ and Troy what''s his name on the bench. The very worst problem for the realists amongst us is that we want the team to win, but every win helps to prop up the current Board and they will no doubt milk any success as much as possible. And then you ge the complete looney''s who will rush to post garbage such as "where are the Board haters now" ala yesterday. For the miilionth time being anti the current Board is not anti NCFC, it''s sticking up for NCFC against the very people who have failed to come up with enough cash to get us a decent strikeforce, and even now, it looks like we''re going to have to sell (again) before we buy.

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[quote user="Rossi"][quote user="nutty nigel"]

Rossi - This football club has always "shopped at Primark". It''s not this last few seasons and not just this board. It''s kind of written on the tin when you buy your season ticket that we will sell players for top prices and replace them from the bargain basement.

You probably need to find another club.

 

[/quote]

i accept what you say nutty but i feel we''velost the ability to spot a player and then sell them for good money - i dont mind that and would rather we did that than buy land for example.
quite frankly your suggetion about finding another club is pathetic and nonsical, but does follwo our clubs pr rush over the past few years, you''re either with us or against us, just looks like you''ve been brainwashed - poor chap
[/quote]

No.. it''s because football has changed and it doesn''t work like that any more. When we used to spot a player and sell them for good money was when Manchester United brought players like Steve Bruce and Mickey Phelan.

I rather suggest it''s you that has been brainwashed. It''s not a case of being for or against, it''s more a case of looking a bit deeper than the initial reaction to disappointment.

I was wrong about you finding another club, maybe you need to find a time machine.

I accept your point about the forward we need but it''s not as though one has signed for anyone else is it?

 

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I''ve hardley missed a game since the late 70''s and I could never not go, because it aint about who''s in charge or who''s playing or where we are in the league, sure i''ll feel elated at times and i''ll feel dejected at times but I support Norwich City cause I got yellow and green blood end of story

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sorry nigel you''ve lost me....you say we have to accept buying bargain basement and selling them on......and i agree, then when i say we havent done it often enough or for a while you say footballs changed. i agree with you again, transfers are far more worldwide and top clubs buy from abroad or foreign players the majority of the time.....but the notion of buying a player and selling them on is still  prevelant, maybe more so than ever, its just that the pond of available talent is that much bigger. With players moving on so quickly in todays footballing climate, the sheer number of transfers is more than ever. My point remains, if we are able to spot, play and sell on then brilliant, and the fact that we havent really had enough recently thats come and set the place alight isnt a symptom of buying cheap players, or of a changing way of football, its a lack of willingness to pay the going rate for a player showing promise. instead we''ve opted for far too long on journeymen and players that havent shown that they are on their way up. we;ve bought the ones to a certain extent that clubs just want rid off, the type of players you get at knock down rates, summer and winter sales.Roeder was told as he has stated in a press interview that when he went for the norwich job if he kept us up he could have as much money as he wanted. ok even if its a bit tongue in cheek, the board havent made it possible so far for him to go and and buy the type of player we need to move forwards....and he''s also said its because we dont have the money. Roeder has done enough to convince the vast majority that he''s a good judge of player. if we cant move forwards until we spend money and we cant spend until we move forwards, then its upto the board to put up or get out, or at least make it more possible for investment to be able to be introduced to the club.

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The last two posts summed up what I was going to say...There have been worse times at this club with the board etc. since I first got a season ticket in 1981!

Secondly, football has changed in that clubs never used to loan out players (or very very rarely). Now there are so many players in the squad that in order for them to put on a pair of boots on a Saturday, they have to go out on loan and clubs such as ours will benefit from these deals.

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[quote user="yellow blood"]

The last two posts summed up what I was going to say...There have been worse times at this club with the board etc. since I first got a season ticket in 1981!

Secondly, football has changed in that clubs never used to loan out players (or very very rarely). Now there are so many players in the squad that in order for them to put on a pair of boots on a Saturday, they have to go out on loan and clubs such as ours will benefit from these deals.

[/quote]

Damn..too slow typing Nutty Nigel''s and Foggo''s posts I meant!

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[quote user="Barclay_Boy"]

[quote user="thecanaryfan"]No, you''re right. If the team does eventually start getting results and some serious points on the board I certainly won be thanking the board. It will be all down to Roeder. That man deserves a medal for what he is achieving here. The sad thing is alot of people will misenterpret such success as having a successful board and of course the board will lord it up as they always do when results go the right way. The board are PATHETIC.[/quote]

Thank you TCF, you have hit the nail squarly on the head. The underlying truth is that out of those players who did so well for us on the pitch yesterday, Lupoli/Bertrand/Kennedy don''t belong to us and neither did OJ and Troy what''s his name on the bench. The very worst problem for the realists amongst us is that we want the team to win, but every win helps to prop up the current Board and they will no doubt milk any success as much as possible. And then you ge the complete looney''s who will rush to post garbage such as "where are the Board haters now" ala yesterday. For the miilionth time being anti the current Board is not anti NCFC, it''s sticking up for NCFC against the very people who have failed to come up with enough cash to get us a decent strikeforce, and even now, it looks like we''re going to have to sell (again) before we buy.

[/quote]

A well worn cliche is this "nail being hit squarely on the head." Unfortunately, the lack of common sense that often accompanies the expression leaves one wondering if the poster using it has any idea what a hammer and a nail even look like. Take a look at our last promotion season. We were in a very similar position after the first few games as we are this season. The loan players we secured then, Huckerby, Crouch and Harper, began to move the club up the table starting in mid-September with a string of unbeaten games. Despite that experience, Barclay_Boy, you point to our current loanees as a complete negative, when according to many, they are showing a lot of promise. Why? Additionally, if we add a striker tomorrow ( or by way of another loan during the next week or so ) who''s to say we won''t start a similar run that the team did in 2003/04.

The comment about "winning would be the worst problem for the realists as it would prop up the Board" sounds to me like a nail being hit in crooked and the hammer being used to get the nail back out.   

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of course Yankee, the other thing it highlights is what two good wingers and a target man can do for you when they posses quality

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[quote user="Rossi"]of course Yankee, the other thing it highlights is what two good wingers and a target man can do for you when they posses quality
[/quote]

Rossi, you may be right although it reminded me of that quote by Harry Redknapp when he was a West Ham player: "Even when we had Moore, Hurst and Peters, West Ham''s average finish was about 17th. It just shows how crap the other 8 of us were."

 

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I thought the bit about Ashton saying if a striker can''t hit a target from 12 yards then he is no good and what would he have thought about Cureton hitting it wide, is this the same Ashton that did exactly the same thing against Reading?

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I always thought that under Delia we had a medium term plan (call it Charltonesque, if you like), building up a team over a few seasons.This policy disappeared when we were suddenly promoted - lashed out some real money on Hux, which made all the difference. Once promoted prudence set in, it was clear that our squad was never going to be good enough, even if at the end one more good performance would have achieved it.Now it seems to be prudence all the way, and Roeder seems to be operating on a small budget, (although loans are not without high expense!)What concerns me is that our accumulated debt seems to have frozen nearly all ambition. What happened to medium term building? Why have we not invested in players with potential from non-league or lower divisions, - are we trying to reach the promised land too quickly? Loan players fill a gap, and perhaps are cheaper in the short run, but they return to their clubs and are not replaced by permanent signings.Or is it, as I would hope the case, that it has taken so long to get rid of all the deadwood from the Worthy and Grant years? The squad now does seem to have more talent than for a few years, even if we are toothless up front. There is some optimism, if Roeder remains but.....

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Norwich has allways been a selling club ,yes we have had some real crap around in recenct years ,but things are getting better ,saturday was the first game i have been to in a long while that i walked away with a smile and cannt wait for more ,saying about the board ,rather be in our postion then southamtons,watfords at the momment wwhere has gambling got them,yes i want to see us win each week ,but in 5 years time i still  want our club to be round ,some people have  to wake up and smell the coffe ,we have never been a big club and unless mr branston or that outher bloke we will stay this way

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Whatever Roeder may say he accepted the job and the financial constraints ''cos he was without full-time work. He will persevere as if it goes well he gets the credit and if it doesn''t he will get paid off and can exaggerate the financial constraints.

 

The key questions are "Is he good enuff ?" and "Is he best manager we could have gotten ?"

The answer to both is "no" and for that reason , slightly different to Rossi''s , "I''m out".

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[quote user="Salopian"]I always thought that under Delia we had a medium term plan (call it Charltonesque, if you like), building up a team over a few seasons.This policy disappeared when we were suddenly promoted - lashed out some real money on Hux, which made all the difference. Once promoted prudence set in, it was clear that our squad was never going to be good enough, even if at the end one more good performance would have achieved it.Now it seems to be prudence all the way, and Roeder seems to be operating on a small budget, (although loans are not without high expense!)What concerns me is that our accumulated debt seems to have frozen nearly all ambition. What happened to medium term building? Why have we not invested in players with potential from non-league or lower divisions, - are we trying to reach the promised land too quickly? Loan players fill a gap, and perhaps are cheaper in the short run, but they return to their clubs and are not replaced by permanent signings.Or is it, as I would hope the case, that it has taken so long to get rid of all the deadwood from the Worthy and Grant years? The squad now does seem to have more talent than for a few years, even if we are toothless up front. There is some optimism, if Roeder remains but.....[/quote]I have a suspicion that this is Delia''s last shot. I have the feeling that she''s a bit fed up& weary with all the sniping & knowing that she doesn''t really have enough cash to give the fans what they want.I think there is a 3 year plan from when Glenn arrived & if it doesn''t work NCFC will be up for grabs.It''s not over yet, though.

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[quote user="thecanaryfan"]No, you''re right. If the team does eventually start getting results and some serious points on the board I certainly won be thanking the board. It will be all down to Roeder. That man deserves a medal for what he is achieving here. The sad thing is alot of people will misenterpret such success as having a successful board and of course the board will lord it up as they always do when results go the right way. The board are PATHETIC.[/quote]

 

just one question canaryfan who appointed roeder ?

 

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[quote user="xyz"]Norwich has allways been a selling club ,yes we have had some real crap around in recenct years ,but things are getting better ,saturday was the first game i have been to in a long while that i walked away with a smile and cannt wait for more ,saying about the board ,rather be in our postion then southamtons,watfords at the momment wwhere has gambling got them,yes i want to see us win each week ,but in 5 years time i still  want our club to be round ,some people have  to wake up and smell the coffe ,we have never been a big club and unless mr branston or that outher bloke we will stay this way[/quote]Xyz, I sympathise with a lot of what you say, but I would be worried that if Mr Branston did buy the club we''d just end up in a pickle!

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[quote user="king of latvia"]

[quote user="thecanaryfan"]No, you''re right. If the team does eventually start getting results and some serious points on the board I certainly won be thanking the board. It will be all down to Roeder. That man deserves a medal for what he is achieving here. The sad thing is alot of people will misenterpret such success as having a successful board and of course the board will lord it up as they always do when results go the right way. The board are PATHETIC.[/quote]

 

just one question canaryfan who appointed roeder ?

 

[/quote]

two more questions, who appointed Grant? and who didn''t even speak to Peter Cullum, or make the fans aware that he had made contact last October?

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The club quite rightly haven''t interferred ( as far as we know) with player purchases and have stepped back and say they''ve backed the manager with as much funds as possible. Whilst they are busy making sure as much cack doesnt stick as possible they forget that financial backing = support. Dont blame the manager for wasting money, blame the people that allow him persistently buy duds. Say, sorry chap, prove what you''ve brought so far warrants extra cash, and if you cant there''s the door. Yes, not every player will be a success, but are ratio of duds is bang up there. People whimper about how much money it would cost to get rid of a manager, but we forget the sums of money the players pick up every week anf that a 3yr contract on £6k a week will cost us like it or not nigh on £1m.

Prudence is not a test of how little money you can survive in this league on, it s finding the right manager and investing in him and constantly reviewing those investments.

Hindsight maybe an exact science but if we''ve wasted an unbelieveable amount of money on journeymen and flop loans in the past few years and no there is none. The board are absolutely to blame - they are the ones ultimately responsible.

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The idea of Delia having had enough of all the sniping and doing the off is unlikely to me.  I saw her close up on Saturday (as in I stood next to her - and no I didnt ask any questions or dish out abuse as I was stood on the pitch for a presentation at halftime) and she was away with the fairies.

She reminded me of Judy Finnigan on a bad day so I doubt if any of the debate that rages on this board even penetrates her conciousness. 

I havent seen anyone looking that vacant since I gave up going to raves.  My guess is that in her bubble we are her loyal and loving subjects and she is universally loved by all.

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