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Morph

Why don't the fans buy Delia out?

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Radical suggestion but why don''t the fans buy out Delia? Set up a club ownership along the lines of Barcelona.This is lifted from another site but it would be interesting to know what the actual details of club ownership are.[quote]FC Barcelona''s ownership structure is revered across the world and regarded as a model of the ideal football club.

A group of Liverpool supporters plan to buy the troubled Anfield club

from its American owners and run it using a system similar to that of

the Catalan giants.

Barca is owned by its ever-growing membership of 156,366 ''socis''

(members), who pay 150euros each year and are represented by a

randomly-selected group who meet with the board and vote on major

decisions.

These representatives have a major say on significant issues such as

sponsorship, finances and sporting affairs, while the president of the

club is elected in four-yearly polls.

The achievements of the illustrious club since its founding in 1899 are

testament to the ongoing success of the structure, as is the fact many

clubs have attempted to copy the model over the years.

So why does Barca''s system work so well?

All adult members are eligible to vote in the presidential elections every four years.

Club members selected randomly by computer and age, and 25 chosen by

the board, join the directors, former presidents and other officials at

the annual delegates assembly to discuss key issues, approve the annual

report and forthcoming projects.

Only members can buy season tickets, with membership fees contributing to the overall price of the ticket.

Fiscal rewards for membership include discounted tickets for the club''s

various sports teams including football, basketball, handball and

hockey as well as club magazines, e-mail updates, sporting and cultural

activities and free entry to the Nou Camp tour and museum.

Ultimately, though, it is not the material rewards which make the Barca membership structure so prestigious.

In a modern game spoiled by disaffected supporters and unaccountable

owners, it is FC Barcelona''s utopian democracy which justifies its

famous slogan ''More than a Club''.[/quote]And please don''t rathole on what the Liverpool supporters are trying to do.Could it work at City?If so, how and what''s the investment needed to replace the current ownership with the Barcelona style ownership?

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[quote user="Thirst Wizard"]There''s not must point in attempting to start a serious debate on here anymore.  You get better responses from talking squit [/quote]*much

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I''ve long admired the Barca model,not just the way in which the club is run by the fans,but also its refreshing approach to sponsorship.For many years Barca wore no sponsors name,and when the club agreed to put Unicef on its shirts,It paid Unicef,rather than vice versa!

Having said that I think it would be very difficult to replicate elsewhere,not least because of the size of Barca''s membership,but also because the fierce pride in its Catalonian identity  creates a sort of siege mentality that makes it unique.Mes que un club,indeed.

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A cracking idea, however just a pipe dream.  Most people are really feeling the credit crunch right now, some just about able to pay bills and shop for a week, and quite a few wondering where their next meal is coming from.

 

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whilst a good idea, doing the maths,

if for example we got 20,000 supporters to buy into this....with delias quoted 56 million buyout price, every supporter would need to chip in 2,800 quid each, which i cant really see happening

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[quote user="one-pint"]

whilst a good idea, doing the maths,

if for example we got 20,000 supporters to buy into this....with delias quoted 56 million buyout price, every supporter would need to chip in 2,800 quid each, which i cant really see happening

[/quote]Didn''t that £56M price tag include paying off the £20M debt?

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If you think all the cr*p that the City Kitty guy has taken,do you realy want to put yourself through that!

Never get off the ground or buy the ground. We can''t agree on what day it is usually what chance on agreeing on anything trivial like expenditure[:D]

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Maybe we could ask Shell, to buy out the club, they get in excess of 46 billion in profits a year and they have a gas terminal in norfolk, which i work at. They sponsor the local Criket team, why don''t they sponsor Norwich City by buying it? Then we would be the richest club in the world.

 

Or my idea is just stupied and won''t ever happen.

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[quote user="Belaugh Yellow"]

 

Maybe we could ask Shell, to buy out the club, they get in excess of 46 billion in profits a year and they have a gas terminal in norfolk, which i work at. They sponsor the local Criket team, why don''t they sponsor Norwich City by buying it? Then we would be the richest club in the world.

 

Or my idea is just stupied and won''t ever happen.

[/quote]

 

Write them a nice letter and see what they say [:D]

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[quote user="jacktungate"]take out the £20m and it is still £1800 each![/quote]

......it also included £20m for the team.

Now we are down to £800.

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Everyone keeps on going on about credit crunches etc but in all honesty are fans so skint we can''t afford £1 a week?

Even if this was the case and you guys can''t afford that why wouldn''t you visit a website that converts the traffic into cash for the team?

If the fans are so skint, they could try saving money on utilities available at the Kitty which pays a commission to the Kitty.

You could just use the page to search google..

There''s no excuses not to use the Kitty even if it is to save the homepage and use the link to the pink un.

One thing is sure though The Kitty is going Nowhere it''s hosting is paid for 5 YEARS and we will not give up.

Which is enough time to see us into another Boom.

Visit us Today

 

 

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[quote user="Beauseant"]

I''ve long admired the Barca model,not just the way in which the club is run by the fans,but also its refreshing approach to sponsorship.For many years Barca wore no sponsors name,and when the club agreed to put Unicef on its shirts,It paid Unicef,rather than vice versa!

Having said that I think it would be very difficult to replicate elsewhere,not least because of the size of Barca''s membership,but also because the fierce pride in its Catalonian identity  creates a sort of siege mentality that makes it unique.Mes que un club,indeed.

[/quote]

this is a good post! unfortunately it shows why fan ownership wont ever take place anywhere else... Barca are a 1 off... the club are not sponsored by anyone, the fans vote on everything from Ticket prices to who the next manager is going to be...

i''d love to see it in the english game but Barca have been fan run since their inception... its too late for an established club to do this i feel.

jas :)

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[quote user="Cannycanary"]

Everyone keeps on going on about credit crunches etc but in all honesty are fans so skint we can''t afford £1 a week?

Even if this was the case and you guys can''t afford that why wouldn''t you visit a website that converts the traffic into cash for the team?

If the fans are so skint, they could try saving money on utilities available at the Kitty which pays a commission to the Kitty.

You could just use the page to search google..

There''s no excuses not to use the Kitty even if it is to save the homepage and use the link to the pink un.

One thing is sure though The Kitty is going Nowhere it''s hosting is paid for 5 YEARS and we will not give up.

Which is enough time to see us into another Boom.

Visit us Today

 

 

[/quote]

 

To be fair that pound a week could go towards a loaf or a bottle of milk.  It''s all about cutting your cloth accordingly, believe me not too many years ago every little penny for me did count, that was a pound towards something else.

I however do always pop on the kitty page a couple of times a week minimum.

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[quote user="jas the barclay king"]

this is a good post! unfortunately it shows why fan ownership wont ever take place anywhere else... Barca are a 1 off... the club are not sponsored by anyone, the fans vote on everything from Ticket prices to who the next manager is going to be...

i''d love to see it in the english game but Barca have been fan run since their inception... its too late for an established club to do this i feel.

jas :)

[/quote]jas:), why do you think it''s too late for this to happen at City?A follow up question for all. What''s the fan base, worldwide for City? 30,000? 40,000? 100,000 even?The calculations other posters have done on the £56M valuation have been based on 20,000. That''s your normal home crowd. But surely the fan base is broader than that. XXXL, YankeeCanary, newyorkcanary, all give the impression that they''re Canary supporters outside of the fan base that regularly attend City home games.A further follow up question, which perhaps somebody can look up in their copy of the club accounts. What''s the number of shares out there? Remember there are ''A'' shares and ''B'' shares (I know ''cos I have some of each). Delia and MWJs 61% holding is made up of what? All A? All B? Or a mix?Here''s another thought. What about a share issue to season ticket holders only? All proceeds go directly into the transfer kitty. And don''t say that your season ticket payments should be going there already. Perhaps they should, but chances are that a good portion of season ticket revenues go towards paying for existing playing staff - another reason to moan when the players don''t perform.

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[quote user="Morph"][quote user="one-pint"]

whilst a good idea, doing the maths,

if for example we got 20,000 supporters to buy into this....with delias quoted 56 million buyout price, every supporter would need to chip in 2,800 quid each, which i cant really see happening

[/quote]

Didn''t that £56M price tag include paying off the £20M debt?
[/quote]

And apart from that, didn''t a fan try to buy her out not so long ago, Cullum was his name,she won''t sell her little dolls house for someone else to play with, so you will have to hire a hit man me thinks  

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[quote user="Morph"][quote user="jas the barclay king"]

this is a good post! unfortunately it shows why fan ownership wont ever take place anywhere else... Barca are a 1 off... the club are not sponsored by anyone, the fans vote on everything from Ticket prices to who the next manager is going to be...

i''d love to see it in the english game but Barca have been fan run since their inception... its too late for an established club to do this i feel.

jas :)

[/quote]

jas:), why do you think it''s too late for this to happen at City?

A follow up question for all. What''s the fan base, worldwide for City? 30,000? 40,000? 100,000 even?

The calculations other posters have done on the £56M valuation have been based on 20,000. That''s your normal home crowd. But surely the fan base is broader than that. XXXL, YankeeCanary, newyorkcanary, all give the impression that they''re Canary supporters outside of the fan base that regularly attend City home games.

A further follow up question, which perhaps somebody can look up in their copy of the club accounts. What''s the number of shares out there? Remember there are ''A'' shares and ''B'' shares (I know ''cos I have some of each). Delia and MWJs 61% holding is made up of what? All A? All B? Or a mix?

Here''s another thought. What about a share issue to season ticket holders only? All proceeds go directly into the transfer kitty.

And don''t say that your season ticket payments should be going there already. Perhaps they should, but chances are that a good portion of season ticket revenues go towards paying for existing playing staff - another reason to moan when the players don''t perform.
[/quote]

Morph - The idea is a good one but shares would be a one hit wonder like last time. We all know that the club has trouble direction 100% of sell on fees into new transfers so why would it be any different with a share offer? We have nearly finished the Norwich City Kitty ( Stage1) why don''t get behind this initative which is designed to generate funds to be used for transfer fees only. This is a long term solution to attract regular finance spearheaded at the part of the club we all most interested in.

We are looking for good people to help us, and i''m sure we could find something for you to do, lol

 

 

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[quote user="Cannycanary"][quote user="Morph"][quote user="jas the barclay king"]

this is a good post! unfortunately it shows why fan ownership wont ever take place anywhere else... Barca are a 1 off... the club are not sponsored by anyone, the fans vote on everything from Ticket prices to who the next manager is going to be...

i''d love to see it in the english game but Barca have been fan run since their inception... its too late for an established club to do this i feel.

jas :)

[/quote]

jas:), why do you think it''s too late for this to happen at City?

A follow up question for all. What''s the fan base, worldwide for City? 30,000? 40,000? 100,000 even?

The calculations other posters have done on the £56M valuation have been based on 20,000. That''s your normal home crowd. But surely the fan base is broader than that. XXXL, YankeeCanary, newyorkcanary, all give the impression that they''re Canary supporters outside of the fan base that regularly attend City home games.

A further follow up question, which perhaps somebody can look up in their copy of the club accounts. What''s the number of shares out there? Remember there are ''A'' shares and ''B'' shares (I know ''cos I have some of each). Delia and MWJs 61% holding is made up of what? All A? All B? Or a mix?

Here''s another thought. What about a share issue to season ticket holders only? All proceeds go directly into the transfer kitty.

And don''t say that your season ticket payments should be going there already. Perhaps they should, but chances are that a good portion of season ticket revenues go towards paying for existing playing staff - another reason to moan when the players don''t perform.
[/quote]

Morph - The idea is a good one but shares would be a one hit wonder like last time. We all know that the club has trouble direction 100% of sell on fees into new transfers so why would it be any different with a share offer? We have nearly finished the Norwich City Kitty ( Stage1) why don''t get behind this initative which is designed to generate funds to be used for transfer fees only. This is a long term solution to attract regular finance spearheaded at the part of the club we all most interested in.

We are looking for good people to help us, and i''m sure we could find something for you to do, lol

 

 

[/quote]

doo you trust this board with ANY Money made from the kitty?

Infact do you trust this board at all? I know what was said in meetings about the Kitty with the club but what they say and then wwhat actually happens is 2 different things.... Id still trad very carefully Kitty organisers... and get set for massive disapointment if the club say no....

jas :)

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Jas - I hope you realise that we are no mugs - our interest is in the team and the football we watch. What you have to understand Jas is that if the fans get behind this ( he signs are very good so far) and we do our job of attracting serious investment the kitty will be of long term financial benefit to the team. New funds over and above what the club produces directed to be used by the manager - if the manager gets it wrong what happens? the fans get him out, right!! It is always the managers that are key to the teams success unless the board starves him of cash. What the supporters should want is renewable finance for the team so that even if the manager did get it wrong we will have the ability to help a new one to put it right. Or we have to rely on and trust the board which i know you are so passionate about.

As for the other senario that you keep mentioning about the clubs acceptance of the kitty... We have had approval, There have no reason to reject funds from the kitty.. and the last thing they would want is for the supporters to amass enough cash to do what this thread about.

As i have said the Kitty is going Nowhere and the publicity and marketing has not even started yet.

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So the Norwich City Kitty thing raises money by people going to its website does it? I didn''t know that and I come on here practically every day. Perhaps a bit more advertising of this is required. Why not get webteam Pete to put a Sticky on here for a while to explain all about it. I dont even know the web address for the site.

My biggest concern if I were running the Kitty is that it would generate a load of money for buying players. And when you hand that money over to the club, say £1m, and they could then spend all of that money on a player or players as required by the Kitty. However, nothing is there to then stop them from reducing their own part of the transfer budget by £1m and using that to pay off some debt for example. Has anyone thought about that? I think perhaps a different approach may be necessary. How about the Kitty being used to purchase shares until a controlling interest is obtained by the fans (possibly Barcelona style as suggested in this thread). That way you could make sure that all money within the club is allocated appropriately.

I dont know a whole lot about this Kitty thing so maybe I am completely off the mark with my comments so dont bite my head off if I have missed the point somewhat.

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To follow up on a post earlier in this thread about running the club. In the Barcelona scheme of things the members/shareholders don''t run the club. I think the ownership allows them to elect the clubs governing body - they elect the club president for example.This is lifted from a Guardian article written about the Barcelona club ownership in 2006:[quote]"The fans truly own this club," Ferran Seriano, one of the club''s

vicepresidents, says. "They control its destiny and can decide how it

will be managed. This is totally different from Arsenal [two-thirds

owned by ITV, businessmen Danny Fiszman and David Dein, and Lady Nina

and Sir Charles Bracewell-Smith] or Chelsea, owned by one guy who could

one day withdraw his investment."...

The Camp Nou way

142,000 Barcelona members or socios

4 Major shareholders in Arsenal

£69 Cheapest adult season ticket at the Camp Nou

£885 Cheapest at the Emirates Stadium

£579 Most expensive adult season ticket at the Camp Nou

£1,825 Most expensive at the Emirates Stadium

£84m Barça''s income in 2002-03, before Joan Laporta took over

£163m Barça''s income in 2005-6

2 Maximum number of four-year terms a Barça president may serve

[/quote]And this lifted from an article in the Sydney Morning Herald:[quote]

At Barca, the directors are elected to the board on four-year

terms because of their vision, not because they''re the mates of a

rich chairman. At Barca, vision requires football knowledge and

understanding to convince the football-savvy socios that the club

will maintain and improve on its guiding principles and

direction.

Thus the membership decides what are the overriding

imperatives.

The members, of course, have also forged the Barca spirit - and

a pride in the club''s badge - that has resisted having a sponsor''s

name or logo placed on their shirt.

Their symbol is considered too important to be soiled with such

base commercial motives. Indeed, last season Barca paid

UNICEF for the right to use its name.

[/quote]

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Hi Captncanary, I never bite lol. The Kitty will be launched this month with a full explaination, but the main thing what supporters should understand is support for it is the most important factor, The club is not silly and they couldn''t be seen to invest less in the team than what the supporters raise. Infact I believe that this would encourage the opposite.

Lets imagine the senario fans raised £1m, what would supporters do if directors didn''t match the ambitions of the fans.

If we bought shares the funds can be spent anywhere in the club, knowing the club we would soon acquire replacement kitchens.

Put it this way, what will carry more weight, a place on the board or to gain respect and trust of the fans backed by a money making website that supports their team.

The fans are the reason for the clubs existence and we support the team.

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[quote user="Cannycanary"]

Hi Captncanary, I never bite lol. The Kitty will be launched this month with a full explaination, but the main thing what supporters should understand is support for it is the most important factor, The club is not silly and they couldn''t be seen to invest less in the team than what the supporters raise. Infact I believe that this would encourage the opposite.

Lets imagine the senario fans raised £1m, what would supporters do if directors didn''t match the ambitions of the fans.

If we bought shares the funds can be spent anywhere in the club, knowing the club we would soon acquire replacement kitchens.

Put it this way, what will carry more weight, a place on the board or to gain respect and trust of the fans backed by a money making website that supports their team.

The fans are the reason for the clubs existence and we support the team.

[/quote]

if a player is sold will the club pay the funds into the kitty or use the money to build another tier ontop of th City Stand??? We all know which the most likely answer is dont we!?

jas :)

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Jas, i know you are going to take some convincing about the whole thing we have discussed this many times on here, I have a question for you "do you actually support this club?"

We have a great stadium and facilities, the club is trying to make extra money through different channels and the fan base you have to admit has to amongst the most loyal in the country. All this didn''t happen because the board didn''t give a damn about the club, Lack of finance will effect the team and as everyone keeps reminding me, do you think the club is excluded from the credit crunch?

What do you think would happen if the Kitty bought a player and that player was sold to extend a part of the stadium without replacing him? You have to remember the club has to fill it !!! If they replaced him and extended the ground with the profits and that earns extra money for the club how can that be a bad thing?

What you are doing is worrying yourself about details that we will use legal representation (also city fans) for, believe me the best senario for the fans will be achieved. If not, i''m sure you guys will vote me off at the next AGM. Also when the Kitty gets properly established we won''t be in the position we now find ourselve in right now, we would have a choice as fans to help the manager with funds for possible targets, or should we continue as we are and hope?

We have a business plan to raise money seperate from donations made, all we need is the support of the fans, which brings me back to the beginning do you actually support the club or don''t you, if you do then you would also embrace what we are trying to achieve.

 

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Great idea, although I''m sure we''ve had this discussion before. It''s not surprising Barcelona, being the home of anarcho-syndicalism, run their football club like a co-op. It would be good if we could do the same, but it''ll take a hell of a lot of bottom-up organising.

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And how would you ever fund transfers?  I can''t see this working, sadly.  Nice idea.  Plus we''re always being told Delia and MWJ don''t want to sell.

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[quote user="Cannycanary"]

Jas, i know you are going to take some convincing about the whole thing we have discussed this many times on here, I have a question for you "do you actually support this club?"

We have a great stadium and facilities, the club is trying to make extra money through different channels and the fan base you have to admit has to amongst the most loyal in the country. All this didn''t happen because the board didn''t give a damn about the club, Lack of finance will effect the team and as everyone keeps reminding me, do you think the club is excluded from the credit crunch?

What do you think would happen if the Kitty bought a player and that player was sold to extend a part of the stadium without replacing him? You have to remember the club has to fill it !!! If they replaced him and extended the ground with the profits and that earns extra money for the club how can that be a bad thing?

What you are doing is worrying yourself about details that we will use legal representation (also city fans) for, believe me the best senario for the fans will be achieved. If not, i''m sure you guys will vote me off at the next AGM. Also when the Kitty gets properly established we won''t be in the position we now find ourselve in right now, we would have a choice as fans to help the manager with funds for possible targets, or should we continue as we are and hope?

We have a business plan to raise money seperate from donations made, all we need is the support of the fans, which brings me back to the beginning do you actually support the club or don''t you, if you do then you would also embrace what we are trying to achieve.

 

[/quote]I think what you''re trying to do here is superb. What funds have you managed to generate so far as it doesn''t say on the site

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