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Robert Ketts Yellow Army

The BBC debate

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If I don''t pay my licence fee, I receive a nasty letter from the licensing authority threatening me with legal action.
So I pay and in return I expect full and free use of the BBC and all its services.
Not so, as everyone on this site will know. If you want to listen to BBC Norfolk''s coverage of NCFC games you have to pay a third party. I resent this and don''t accept their rubbish excuse for me having to pay TWICE for a BBC service that I have already paid for.
I complained to the corporation. Here is their patronising response. Tw*ts.

-----Original Message-----

>{Date:}             14/04/2008
>{Feedback Type:}    Complaint
>
>{Title:}           
>{First Name:}
>{Last Name:}        Ginns
>
>
>{Email:}          
>{Phone:}           
>{Postcode:}        
>{Country:}          England
>
>{About:}            General
>{Network:}           Other BBC
>
>
>
>
>
>{Programme Name:}  
>{Transmission Date:}
>
>{Comments:}
>Dear Sir/Madam,
>
>Please clarify your reasons for me not being able to listen to Norwich City FC football matches online from my home in Kent.
>
>The BBC website explains that it is a rights issue, affecting high profile Premiership matches, that stops it broadcasting games to a wider area.
>
>To me, and I''m sure many more like me, Norwich games do not qualify as "high profile" events.
>
>I pay my license fee and am not prepared to pay for a subscription to a private company to listen to coverage that I have already subsidised.
>
>Why should I pay twice? I am not happy with this situation and strongly believe that it goes against your public service remit.
>
>I look forward to hearing from you.
>
>Yours sincerely,

 

 

BBC Complaints [T2008041400HAS010Z3497047]Thursday, April 17, 2008 2:03 PM
From: "complaintresponse@bbc.co.uk" <complaintresponse@bbc.co.uk>Add sender to Contacts To:

Dear

Thank you for your e-mail regarding the broadcast of local football on bbc.co.uk .

I appreciate you are unhappy a recent Norwich City FC match was not available to listen to on the bbc.co.uk website. If I  may explain the BBC only has the rights to broadcast local matches via the radio waves. This does not give us the rights to broadcast the coverage online - which has to be negotiated separately.

In this case the rights to broadcast the game live via the internet were secured by another organisation. I acknowledge you are unhappy the BBC did not secure the rights and be assured your complaint has been registered on our audience log. This is the internal report of audience feedback which we compile daily for all programme makers and commissioning executives within the BBC, and also their senior management. It ensures that your points, and all other comments we receive, are circulated and considered across the BBC.

I hope this information helps to clarify the situation and thank you again for contacting the BBC.

Regards

Tony Brown
BBC Complaints
__________________________________________

 

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[quote user="b ginns"]

If I don''t pay my licence fee, I receive a nasty letter from the licensing authority threatening me with legal action.
So I pay and in return I expect full and free use of the BBC and all its services.

 

[/quote]

do you see whats wrong with your second sentence?

jas :)

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It''s incredibly annoying ( I live in nottm) but surely the BBC reply answers your question. The BBC do not own the rights to broadcast over the internet. So you haven''t paid twice. That''s like saying I can hear Glastonbury on radio 1 so surely that gives me the right to get into the festival. Sadly not, two different things. Essentially, as the BBC won''t get any more money than the license fee, they probably can''t offer much for the rights, wheres the shower that do own the rights obviously make a pretty penny from it.  Gets on my t*ts too.

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I can see your point but at the end of the day Canaries World is only £3 a month and you get the extended highlights and various other videos too so I think it''s worth the money.

When World works that is!

Premium TV are a crap company and I think you''ll find most clubs are doing their own websites once their contracts are expiring with PTV.

Most Premier League clubs do their own websites and look at Southampton''s or Hereford''s for lower league examples, they seem much better and easier on the eye.

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to be honest guys I have little sympathy if they dont have the rights they dont have the rights, it''s an online issue.  They can''t provide you with content they don''t have.  It is two seperate rights, the online rights and the local radio rights. one belongs to bcc one belongs to premium tv. I''m sure the bbc would love to provide the content but they''ve been sold down the river with the rights going to premium tv.I don''t like but the bbc are as much a victim of premium tv''s uselessness as we are.

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[quote user="SPat"]It''s incredibly annoying ( I live in nottm) but surely the BBC reply answers your question. The BBC do not own the rights to broadcast over the internet. So you haven''t paid twice. That''s like saying I can hear Glastonbury on radio 1 so surely that gives me the right to get into the festival. Sadly not, two different things. Essentially, as the BBC won''t get any more money than the license fee, they probably can''t offer much for the rights, wheres the shower that do own the rights obviously make a pretty penny from it.  Gets on my t*ts too.
[/quote]

 

Ok, but it is my licence fee - and everyone else''s - that pays for the BBC to be able to broadcast the match. So why should I pay extra to be able to listen to it?

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[quote user="jas the barclay king"][quote user="b ginns"]

If I don''t pay my licence fee, I receive a nasty letter from the licensing authority threatening me with legal action.
So I pay and in return I expect full and free use of the BBC and all its services.

 

[/quote]

do you see whats wrong with your second sentence?

jas :)

[/quote]

 

no?

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[quote user="anothatracksuitmanager"]to be honest guys I have little sympathy if they dont have the rights they dont have the rights, it''s an online issue.  They can''t provide you with content they don''t have.  It is two seperate rights, the online rights and the local radio rights. one belongs to bcc one belongs to premium tv. I''m sure the bbc would love to provide the content but they''ve been sold down the river with the rights going to premium tv.

I don''t like but the bbc are as much a victim of premium tv''s uselessness as we are.


[/quote]

however the bbc are quite happy to take the service (Radio Norfolk) we''ve subsidised as licence fee payers and sell it on to Premium TV....the bbc wins both ways it gets money from the broadvast internet rights without coughing out for the rights themselves

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[quote user="jas the barclay king"][quote user="b ginns"]

If I don''t pay my licence fee, I receive a nasty letter from the licensing authority threatening me with legal action.
So I pay and in return I expect full and free use of the BBC and all its services.

 

[/quote]

do you see whats wrong with your second sentence?

jas :)

[/quote]

Jas he uses the term ''free use'' not in a not having to pay sense but a having the services in there entirety at his disposal 24/7 sense

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[quote user="still holding out for new heroes"]

[quote user="anothatracksuitmanager"]to be honest guys I have little sympathy if they dont have the rights they dont have the rights, it''s an online issue.  They can''t provide you with content they don''t have.  It is two seperate rights, the online rights and the local radio rights. one belongs to bcc one belongs to premium tv. I''m sure the bbc would love to provide the content but they''ve been sold down the river with the rights going to premium tv.

I don''t like but the bbc are as much a victim of premium tv''s uselessness as we are.


[/quote]

however the bbc are quite happy to take the service (Radio Norfolk) we''ve subsidised as licence fee payers and sell it on to Premium TV....the bbc wins both ways it gets money from the broadvast internet rights without coughing out for the rights themselves

[/quote]

I don''t really agree with the BBC bashing - it may be a stipulation of the local radio contract that the commentary is made available to whoever wins the internet broadcast bid.

Of course if the BBC are selling the commentary I can''t think of any reason why that isn''t reasonable also - they can''t broadcast over the internet anyway and they already have a crew in place commentating for local radio. Selling on the commentary would actually subsidise the license fee, rather than the other way around.

While not having internet broadcasting is deeply irritating (I spent the last six years in Durham so I know the pain) the license fee has to cover a huge variety of areas so the overall benefit to the BBC of bidding for this may not be good value for money.

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[quote user="anothatracksuitmanager"]to be honest guys I have little sympathy if they dont have the rights they dont have the rights, it''s an online issue.  They can''t provide you with content they don''t have.  It is two seperate rights, the online rights and the local radio rights. one belongs to bcc one belongs to premium tv. I''m sure the bbc would love to provide the content but they''ve been sold down the river with the rights going to premium tv.I don''t like but the bbc are as much a victim of premium tv''s uselessness as we are.

[/quote]they should bid more of my license fee to get the bloody rights!

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[quote user="london Canary"][quote user="anothatracksuitmanager"]to be honest guys I have little sympathy if they dont have the rights they dont have the rights, it''s an online issue.  They can''t provide you with content they don''t have.  It is two seperate rights, the online rights and the local radio rights. one belongs to bcc one belongs to premium tv. I''m sure the bbc would love to provide the content but they''ve been sold down the river with the rights going to premium tv.I don''t like but the bbc are as much a victim of premium tv''s uselessness as we are.

[/quote]they should bid more of my license fee to get the bloody rights![/quote]Would you be willing to pay more for them to do it?Like £3 a month more? Like - the cost of canaries world?

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[quote user="Tickers"][quote user="still holding out for new heroes"]

[quote user="anothatracksuitmanager"]to be honest guys I have little sympathy if they dont have the rights they dont have the rights, it''s an online issue.  They can''t provide you with content they don''t have.  It is two seperate rights, the online rights and the local radio rights. one belongs to bcc one belongs to premium tv. I''m sure the bbc would love to provide the content but they''ve been sold down the river with the rights going to premium tv.

I don''t like but the bbc are as much a victim of premium tv''s uselessness as we are.


[/quote]

however the bbc are quite happy to take the service (Radio Norfolk) we''ve subsidised as licence fee payers and sell it on to Premium TV....the bbc wins both ways it gets money from the broadvast internet rights without coughing out for the rights themselves

[/quote] I don''t really agree with the BBC bashing - it may be a stipulation of the local radio contract that the commentary is made available to whoever wins the internet broadcast bid. Of course if the BBC are selling the commentary I can''t think of any reason why that isn''t reasonable also - they can''t broadcast over the internet anyway and they already have a crew in place commentating for local radio. Selling on the commentary would actually subsidise the license fee, rather than the other way around. While not having internet broadcasting is deeply irritating (I spent the last six years in Durham so I know the pain) the license fee has to cover a huge variety of areas so the overall benefit to the BBC of bidding for this may not be good value for money.[/quote]

 

But they can broadcast it over the internet. I suspect they wanted to operate their commercial imperative (even though as a 100 per cent publicly funded body they have no commercial risk) and make a quick buck by selling the internet rights to a third party who then sells to us what we have already paid for through our licence fee. This is not BBC bashing; this is a consumer questioning why he must pay for something twice

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It is BBC bashing since the claim has been made that the BBC are selling on the local radio services and making money out of this deal against the interests of license payers. I fail to see how accusing the BBC of trying to ''make a quick buck'' is not BBC bashing.

They cannot broadcast over the internet unless they pay money to do so to the football league. Since Premium TV won those rights the BBC have to terminate internet broadcasting.

There are then two reasons why the radio commentary is streamed via Premium TV. Either the contact the BBC signs for the local coverage forces them to make it available or the BBC sells the commentary on. If it is the first then the BBC has no choice and if it is the latter I can''t see why recouping some of the cost of covering the games on local radio is a bad move, since the BBC have to terminate the internet stream at that point anyway. I would suspect it is the former though, since without commentary guaranteed Premium TV would need to station commentators across the country which would drastically drive up the price of the service (thus stiffing the internet user even more).

Internet streams and radio streams are different things, even if they sound the same. You aren''t paying twice for one product because as far as the football league are concerned they are selling two different products (radio broadcast and internet broadcast), and the BBC has only paid for one of those.

It''s annoying, it really is as for ages I had to deal with live text updates from the BBC website which was like a very long and painful version of Championship Manager 1, but the BBC isn''t really stiffing anyone.

Andy

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[quote user="ob1"][quote user="london Canary"][quote user="anothatracksuitmanager"]to be honest guys I have little sympathy if they dont have the rights they dont have the rights, it''s an online issue.  They can''t provide you with content they don''t have.  It is two seperate rights, the online rights and the local radio rights. one belongs to bcc one belongs to premium tv. I''m sure the bbc would love to provide the content but they''ve been sold down the river with the rights going to premium tv.

I don''t like but the bbc are as much a victim of premium tv''s uselessness as we are.


[/quote]

they should bid more of my license fee to get the bloody rights!
[/quote]

Would you be willing to pay more for them to do it?

Like £3 a month more? Like - the cost of canaries world?
[/quote]

 

No i''m not paying anymore i pay enough as it is.....like i''m not paying setanta money just so i can watch a few extra games.

The point being that becuase i don''t live in norfolk i can''t hear the norwich games, It would be like paying sky 40 a month but because i don''t live in norfolk i can''t get any snooker games for example. Radio norfolk is broadcast over the internet so i should be able to as i lisence payer to be able to hear EVERYTHING that radio norfolk broadcasts

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who pays adams, goram and waller to commentate  ? us via our licence fee  so we should be able to listen to them by whatever means is available to us

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For heavens sake, the BBC have given a response which says they only have the rights to broadcast on the radio waves, and lost the rights for internet broadcasts.

Are you really so stupid to not see the logic in this simple reply?

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Would there be anything stopping an independent internet broadcast from the club? Or maybe we could get a fan to commentate over MSN Messenger or something of that ilk at games!

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[quote user="b ginns"][quote user="jas the barclay king"][quote user="b ginns"]

If I don''t pay my licence fee, I receive a nasty letter from the licensing authority threatening me with legal action.
So I pay and in return I expect full and free use of the BBC and all its services.

 

[/quote]

do you see whats wrong with your second sentence?

jas :)

[/quote]

 

no?

[/quote]

you dont get free BBC Service.. the TV liscence pays for BBC 1, BBC 2, the crap free view channels, all local and National BBC Radio Services and the BBC I Player and Website....

 If they ran adverts every 10 minutes you wouldnt need a liscence.

Its like Sky.. nothing but a cash cow.. why pay monthly for something which has 200 channels of Adverts which pay for the service.. your paying for nothing by having sky or Cable instead of some fat cats wages in a posh office somewhere.

 Howe many sky/Virgin media channels are commercial based? Nearly all of them... how much does it cost to advertise?  a fortune!.... Its siceking that your paying for what should, (perhaps by law.. i dont know) be a free service.

jas :)

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Alex,

I would assume that the club would not be able to independently broadcast match commentary over the internet, as they have (via the football league) sold those rights. I presume they receive some revenue from the sale of the rights and perhaps some extra money per suscriber to the service, so setting up something else would be a breach of the contract.

Tickers

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[quote user="Tickers"]It is BBC bashing since the claim has been made that the BBC are selling on the local radio services and making money out of this deal against the interests of license payers. I fail to see how accusing the BBC of trying to ''make a quick buck'' is not BBC bashing. They cannot broadcast over the internet unless they pay money to do so to the football league. Since Premium TV won those rights the BBC have to terminate internet broadcasting. There are then two reasons why the radio commentary is streamed via Premium TV. Either the contact the BBC signs for the local coverage forces them to make it available or the BBC sells the commentary on. If it is the first then the BBC has no choice and if it is the latter I can''t see why recouping some of the cost of covering the games on local radio is a bad move, since the BBC have to terminate the internet stream at that point anyway. I would suspect it is the former though, since without commentary guaranteed Premium TV would need to station commentators across the country which would drastically drive up the price of the service (thus stiffing the internet user even more). Internet streams and radio streams are different things, even if they sound the same. You aren''t paying twice for one product because as far as the football league are concerned they are selling two different products (radio broadcast and internet broadcast), and the BBC has only paid for one of those. It''s annoying, it really is as for ages I had to deal with live text updates from the BBC website which was like a very long and painful version of Championship Manager 1, but the BBC isn''t really stiffing anyone. Andy[/quote]

 

But the content is the same so I would be paying twice for the same product! There''s the rub. The licence fee payer is the loser because he or she is not able to access all of the BBC''s services.

From the Beeb''s website:

The BBC is paid for directly through each household TV licence. This allows it to run a wide range of popular public services for everyone, free of adverts and independent of advertisers, shareholders or political interests. The BBC provides 8 interactive TV channels, 10 radio networks, more than 50 local TV and radio services, the BBC''s website bbc.co.uk, and the on-demand TV and radio service, BBC iPlayer.

We pay for all of the above. The unjustice is in our inability to access it all.

The BBC should expect a bit of bashing now and again - it''s publicly funded and so should be open to scrutiny and challenge in order to be as fully responsive as possible to the needs of the British public.

 

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I agree with Ginns on this.  As a licence payer I should be able to listen to Radio Norfolk 24/7 through my internet connection if I so wish...To be fobbed off with licencing rights bull is a complete cop out.

But then lets be brutally honest here, the BBC is a pretty poor excuse for a state funded television network.  My take on it is the arrival of digital television has forced the BBC to seriously dilute their resources.  Perhaps if they concentrated on making top quality broadcasts for their 2 main TV channels and main radio stations instead of diverisfying with 1extra, bbc 3 & 4 plus all the other crap channels they offer then they could afford the rights to broadcast said football.

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[quote user="Carlos Valderrama"]

I agree with Ginns on this.  As a licence payer I should be able to listen to Radio Norfolk 24/7 through my internet connection if I so wish...To be fobbed off with licencing rights bull is a complete cop out.

But then lets be brutally honest here, the BBC is a pretty poor excuse for a state funded television network.  My take on it is the arrival of digital television has forced the BBC to seriously dilute their resources.  Perhaps if they concentrated on making top quality broadcasts for their 2 main TV channels and main radio stations instead of diverisfying with 1extra, bbc 3 & 4 plus all the other crap channels they offer then they could afford the rights to broadcast said football.

[/quote]

And sack Jonathan £18m Ross...

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[quote user="ncfcstar"]For heavens sake, the BBC have given a response which says they only have the rights to broadcast on the radio waves, and lost the rights for internet broadcasts. Are you really so stupid to not see the logic in this simple reply?[/quote]

are you chairman of the bbc or something  ? can`t think of any other reason for getting your knickers in a twist on their behalf

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If you telephone somebody who is listening to Radio norfolk you will probably hear the live commentary. If you have a phone package where calls <one hour are free at evenings and weekends it''ll probably cost you nothing.

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ditch the tv license -get out more- be more positive -see how many licence reminders you get-watch tv at friends  -listen free on iplayer-don''t watch  any tv-listen to radio 4-volunteer for 2012

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usually i''m against all large organisations, but i actually think the bbc is really good one. 

Granted,  they could have won tried harder to win the rights to broadcast the football commentary over the internet, but would it really be fair use of licence payers money... I mean there are a lot of people that want to listen to their side on a saturday afternoon, but it is only a tiny proportion. It would be great if BBC were able to offer that service, but they can only spend the money they have and if Premium TV really want it, and are willing to bid anything, how can the BBC compete? And should they compete.... Would they then have to increase the licence fee? The altenative is fans can listen for a small subscription elsewhere. I spent 15 years living away from Norwich before the internet really existed so I spent a lot of time glued to teletext and listening to radio 5 for pathetic one line norwich updates so honestly, I''d have been delighted to have a service that i could buy (during the war..... haha).

BBC don''t have the rights to broadcast over the radio. The football league wanted more money for those rights. Premium TV wanted to pay the most. It''s the same deal with Sky owning rights to the Premiership, and whatever else. The beeb try to get as much sport etc as they can, but as a non-commercial channel, they struggle to compete.

I can kind of see the arguement saying that they shouldn''t be allowed to sell their commentary on to a third party - should Premium TV be allowed to profit from a service that the licence fee provides? I''m not sure that it should. But equally, it allows the BBC to invest more money into programming and winning rights elsewhere, so on that front, it makes sense. Ideally though, the BBC or someone else would be allowed to offer it as a free, commercial service (i.e. advert based)...

John

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