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Syteanric

interesting comment on MOTD re target man.

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Lawro asked the question "why does Michael Owen score so many headers?"

Lineker, a striker, an not the tallest one answered for him

"Because of his movement in the box and his positioning, You dont have to be 6ft 3 to win it in the air".

this got me thinking.. is a target man really what we need? if we had a couple of decent wingers who could put the ball in the right place, with intelligent strikers who know where to run and when we could avoide the need for a target man (and thus rule out hoofball) in the future.

 Manchester utd do this with Ronaldo, Rooney and Tevez.. all 3 are not target men.. yet score their fare share of eaders (Ronaldo particularly is good in the air, possesing a good hang time). Newcastle have Owen.. who has scored with his head for both Newcastle and England...

Are our strikers smart enough to find the space? Possibly with Lupoli who has trained in Italy.... are English forwards that tactically aware? Owens played in spain, Ronaldo and Tevez are Imports.. Rooney is training with the best in the world...

Is it down to coaching? or are our players tactically naive? do the wingers put in decent enough balls? Discuss?

jas :)

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Rumor..........

Norwich City
 

Norwich eye deal for Icelandic forward

08:35 August, 24, 2008

Heidar Helguson is being lined up to fill the target man void at Carrow Road

Mail The FansFC Editor

Send This Article To A Friend

Post Your View on The Msg Board

The former Watford man is on the fringes of the Bolton Wanderers side

at present and is attracting plenty of interest from the Championship.

A striker currently with the Canaries, Arturo Lupoli, was the hero on Saturday with two goals to earn a point at Cardiff.

"It was a very strong finish by us and I would have fancied ourselves

to score the next goal, but on the balance of play we have to be

satisfied with a point," said Glenn Roeder afterwards.

"We needed to do something after going two behind and I''m very glad that we managed to do that thanks to Arturo.

"The boys need a pat on the back for keeping going and we are a super-fit side, so today it has all paid off."

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[quote user="jas the barclay king"]

Lawro asked the question "why does Michael Owen score so many headers?"

Lineker, a striker, an not the tallest one answered for him

"Because of his movement in the box and his positioning, You dont have to be 6ft 3 to win it in the air".

this got me thinking.. is a target man really what we need? if we had a couple of decent wingers who could put the ball in the right place, with intelligent strikers who know where to run and when we could avoide the need for a target man (and thus rule out hoofball) in the future.

 Manchester utd do this with Ronaldo, Rooney and Tevez.. all 3 are not target men.. yet score their fare share of eaders (Ronaldo particularly is good in the air, possesing a good hang time). Newcastle have Owen.. who has scored with his head for both Newcastle and England...

Are our strikers smart enough to find the space? Possibly with Lupoli who has trained in Italy.... are English forwards that tactically aware? Owens played in spain, Ronaldo and Tevez are Imports.. Rooney is training with the best in the world...

Is it down to coaching? or are our players tactically naive? do the wingers put in decent enough balls? Discuss?

jas :)

[/quote]

Quite right Jas , this is what I said in my thread about Ken Foggo , for a small man he was good in the air and the positions he took up in the box were sublime....arrdee.

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Watching ''The Championship'' on ITV, seeing Earnshaw really reminds me of what we miss.  He just looks as if he is going to score given half the chance. 

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[quote user="ncfc_chris"]

the problem is the strikers not being able to hold the ball up in the opposition half enabling us to create chances, makes me wonder whether some people have been watching us lately

[/quote]

Yes that has been a problem Chris. But a striker doesn''t have to be tall to hold the ball up. Nobody can hold the ball up with their head. It''s about strength and awareness, think Dickov, he can do it.

 

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[quote user="nutty nigel"][quote user="ncfc_chris"]

the problem is the strikers not being able to hold the ball up in the opposition half enabling us to create chances, makes me wonder whether some people have been watching us lately

[/quote]

Yes that has been a problem Chris. But a striker doesn''t have to be tall to hold the ball up. Nobody can hold the ball up with their head. It''s about strength and awareness, think Dickov, he can do it.

 [/quote]

Frustrating though to see our keeper and the centre backs hoofing it up to Cureton and Lupoli, when we know it''s coming straight back in our direction from their centre backs.  Someone who can win headers and flick ons from long kicks would be nice (without wanting to sound all AFC Wimbledon).  Roberts was excellent at this, keeping possession from kick outs etc. 

That said, Stefanovic looks like he wants to play it out of defence which is encouraging.

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you don''t have to have a tall man but it gives you more options if you at least have a couple in the squad,sometimes it,s handy to play the direct route.Only the best teams in europe can play without a big man and, whilst i hate to admit it, we are not one of the best teams in europe.If we had strikers of the calibre you suggest they would be plying their trade at the highest level.We are a championship team with championship players.with all the training in the world you cannot teach a poodle to be a greyhound

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I think we are short of big physical type players all over the pitch so a big striker will certainly help us and give us other options. Considering Roeder said we lacked physical presence last season he doesn''t seem to have signed many brick outhouse type players.

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Do people not know what a target man is? The ability to score with a header in the box is beside the point. Lupoli did so yesterday with a header at shin height.What we need is a target man. In other words, a striker who is adept at playing with his back to goal, so that, if there is not the option to play through midfield, we can play the ball up to him and he can either flick it on through heading ability, or bring it down, hold off the centre half through decent control and strength, before bringing in one of our seven wide players. (If only the pitch was octagonal...).More from Football 101 later.

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[quote user="Robert N. LiM"]Do people not know what a target man is? The ability to score with a header in the box is beside the point. Lupoli did so yesterday with a header at shin height.

What we need is a target man. In other words, a striker who is adept at playing with his back to goal, so that, if there is not the option to play through midfield, we can play the ball up to him and he can either flick it on through heading ability, or bring it down, hold off the centre half through decent control and strength, before bringing in one of our seven wide players. (If only the pitch was octagonal...).

More from Football 101 later.
[/quote]

exactly, we''ve been playing pretty football only to lose it up top because we''ve got no physical presence to keep hold of it

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[quote user="nutty nigel"][quote user="ncfc_chris"]

the problem is the strikers not being able to hold the ball up in the opposition half enabling us to create chances, makes me wonder whether some people have been watching us lately

[/quote]

Yes that has been a problem Chris. But a striker doesn''t have to be tall to hold the ball up. Nobody can hold the ball up with their head. It''s about strength and awareness, think Dickov, he can do it.

 

[/quote]

with chris and NN on this;  but the only problem is that people equate a target man with being 6''2";  up front we are missing pace, an ability to hold the ball up to releive pressure on the defence (from keeper or defence) and an aeriel threat from set pieces and open play as well as an ability to score.   The scoring is what we all want but the other key role is the ability to hold the ball up.

Having said that helgusson would be a good signing  

 

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[quote user="AndyJR"]Watching ''The Championship'' on ITV, seeing Earnshaw really reminds me of what we miss.  He just looks as if he is going to score given half the chance. 
[/quote]

Agreed, I thought the same. I hope he is (moderately) successful at Forest, just because it would really piss Derby off!

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Unfortunately I have to respectfully disagree on some points in this thread.Personally the main problem we have (which seems to be the reason we are struggling to create chances/score chances) is the lack of this big man. Now this for a few reasons. Firstly (and primarily) due to the lack of variation in our forward line up. Playing similar players together often doesn''t work because too often they both rely upon the same service, and if that service doesn''t work.... well... that''s the position we find ourselves in now. The big problem is, is that our midfield doesn''t like passing forwards, or even moving forwards... Very often the pass is square and the movement is to and fro and with strikers upfront that like the ball in the channel, this causes problems. If anything (I''ll use cureton as the example but I''m sure this applies to more than just him), the midfield needs to be running or at least moving towards the defence. That enables Cureton to run off the back of the defender and give the defender an option, stop the midfielder''s run or track jamie (of course this is all theory and well... I don''t need to saything else...). The trouble is, none of our midfield do this. Fozzy doesn''t realise you can cross the half-way line. Clingan is a typical defensive midfielder, patty doesn''t do this either. The closest we have is hoolahan, but being soo one footed it makes it a difficult move to pull off for him. I feel that a player able to hold the ball up could change this. Of course that''s a big could. Theoretically, having a player holding the ball will enable to midfield to come and attack the ball and get it off the target man. It would give our attacks forward momentum, and get us past the game line (something we really struggle to do, and have done in a long long time). However we need those midfielders looking to attack the ball. I can only see Russell doing this so maybe we need to get the midfield to be a bit more adventurous and get this forward who is able to hold the play up in, preferrable asap.

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Good post Fellas. I think I''m a little more optimistic - I think a decent target man would turn this into a pretty good side. But you''re absolutely right to say it''s not just about goals, it''s about giving us lots more options.

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[quote user="Fellas"]Unfortunately I have to respectfully disagree on some points in this thread.

Personally the main problem we have (which seems to be the reason we are struggling to create chances/score chances) is the lack of this big man. Now this for a few reasons. Firstly (and primarily) due to the lack of variation in our forward line up. Playing similar players together often doesn''t work because too often they both rely upon the same service, and if that service doesn''t work.... well... that''s the position we find ourselves in now.

The big problem is, is that our midfield doesn''t like passing forwards, or even moving forwards... Very often the pass is square and the movement is to and fro and with strikers upfront that like the ball in the channel, this causes problems. If anything (I''ll use cureton as the example but I''m sure this applies to more than just him), the midfield needs to be running or at least moving towards the defence. That enables Cureton to run off the back of the defender and give the defender an option, stop the midfielder''s run or track jamie (of course this is all theory and well... I don''t need to saything else...). The trouble is, none of our midfield do this. Fozzy doesn''t realise you can cross the half-way line. Clingan is a typical defensive midfielder, patty doesn''t do this either. The closest we have is hoolahan, but being soo one footed it makes it a difficult move to pull off for him. I feel that a player able to hold the ball up could change this.

Of course that''s a big could. Theoretically, having a player holding the ball will enable to midfield to come and attack the ball and get it off the target man. It would give our attacks forward momentum, and get us past the game line (something we really struggle to do, and have done in a long long time). However we need those midfielders looking to attack the ball. I can only see Russell doing this so maybe we need to get the midfield to be a bit more adventurous and get this forward who is able to hold the play up in, preferrable asap.
[/quote]

Fellas- you are spot on. May I be the first to nominate you as the next NCFC manager.[Y]

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Definitely true - we certainly need a ''target man'', and Roeder + the squad clearly agree from the comments they have been making.  IMO we don''t need this guy just to score goals, indeed, such players often don''t score as many as they provide assists for.  We just need someone to provide a threat to the opposition be it for holding the ball up and bringing others into play at clearances, or to provide a threat at set pieces.  Someone like Iversen definitely fits the bill (as do others), but imo whoever we get doesn''t have to be a giant, he just needs to be someone with a physical presence who is good in the air (eg Helgusson, who is meant to be a great header of the ball). 

I guess we will have to wait and see what the next week or so brings us.

 

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Jas, you raise an interesting point and you are right that he doesn''t have to be huge.  Winning headers in the box is related to to things clever balls in a clever movement in the box.  I see Holahan as the type of player who will play a clever ball rather than a wayward cross, so then it''s a case of do we have that clever movement, well Lupoli can be that man, but cureton isn''t strong in the air.  It''s hard to say with Koroma because I have seen so little of him, but he is the biggest of the strikers that we have.  As for your example with Man United they have world class players and Ronlado is 6ft so he is hardly tiny.  We also need someone who is strong and can hold the ball up, but he doesn''t have to be 6''5 I am more interested in the quality of players than his height.  As for Helguson well I remember him being good in the air, so who knows.

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[quote user="nutty nigel"][quote user="ncfc_chris"]

the problem is the strikers not being able to hold the ball up in the opposition half enabling us to create chances, makes me wonder whether some people have been watching us lately

[/quote]

Yes that has been a problem Chris. But a striker doesn''t have to be tall to hold the ball up. Nobody can hold the ball up with their head. It''s about strength and awareness, think Dickov, he can do it.

 

[/quote]

Kevin Phillips too... he is an intelligent player who makes smart runs and uses his strength to the advantage.

you could say Leon McKenzie is the closest we have had to this kind of Target man in recent years.. good in the air and a clever mover.... yet physically strong so could bring others in with his hold up play

jas :)

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[quote user="Robert N. LiM"]I don''t think I ever saw Leon hold the ball up.

I would nominate Svensson. And Ashton, of course.
[/quote]

Leon didnt need to hold it up with his back to goal and wait, like Iwan Roberts.. he would run to the positions he knew he could then use the ball in.. thsi equates to holding up too...

 Take Kevin Phillips, and watch him closely next week, watch how he will, if isolated pull either the full back or center back out of position whilst someone runs into the middle for the return ball.. Phillips will use his strength to hold off the defender and his intelligence to pick his run before passing it....

 the intelligence of the run after the pass will see him into the box for a chance too...

 Our strikers just do not possess this on filed "intelligence"... good players, and skilful, but no technical footballers.... same can be said of the defence and the number of penalties given away thus far.. we aren good players but we aren''t techincally astute

jas :)

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indeed if it was all about height we''d field a team of basketball players.  Take Dickov I remember him scoring a header against us,  some said ''wtf he''s about 5ft f*** all'' Simple he was a clever player

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[quote user="jas the barclay king"]

Lawro asked the question "why does Michael Owen score so many headers?"

Lineker, a striker, an not the tallest one answered for him

"Because of his movement in the box and his positioning, You dont have to be 6ft 3 to win it in the air".

this got me thinking.. is a target man really what we need? if we had a couple of decent wingers who could put the ball in the right place, with intelligent strikers who know where to run and when we could avoide the need for a target man (and thus rule out hoofball) in the future.

 Manchester utd do this with Ronaldo, Rooney and Tevez.. all 3 are not target men.. yet score their fare share of eaders (Ronaldo particularly is good in the air, possesing a good hang time). Newcastle have Owen.. who has scored with his head for both Newcastle and England...

Are our strikers smart enough to find the space? Possibly with Lupoli who has trained in Italy.... are English forwards that tactically aware? Owens played in spain, Ronaldo and Tevez are Imports.. Rooney is training with the best in the world...

Is it down to coaching? or are our players tactically naive? do the wingers put in decent enough balls? Discuss?

jas :)

[/quote]

Yup would work with loads of money in the thord of the Premiership. other examples?

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[quote user="Mister Chops"][quote user="nutty nigel"][quote user="ncfc_chris"]

the problem is the strikers not being able to hold the ball up in the opposition half enabling us to create chances, makes me wonder whether some people have been watching us lately

[/quote]

Yes that has been a problem Chris. But a striker doesn''t have to be tall to hold the ball up. Nobody can hold the ball up with their head. It''s about strength and awareness, think Dickov, he can do it.

 [/quote]

Frustrating though to see our keeper and the centre backs hoofing it up to Cureton and Lupoli, when we know it''s coming straight back in our direction from their centre backs.  Someone who can win headers and flick ons from long kicks would be nice (without wanting to sound all AFC Wimbledon).  Roberts was excellent at this, keeping possession from kick outs etc. 

That said, Stefanovic looks like he wants to play it out of defence which is encouraging.
[/quote]

I''m not sure I would agree, at the minute I think we need a Sutton or a Iwan, type of player, big with physical strength who cannot be hustled off the ball, can hold it up and allow others to join the attack. That''s what we appear to be missing for me.

 

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[quote user="norfolkbroadslim"]We still need a targetman, doesn''t have to be tall but a targetman.  Just because a player isn''t tall doesn''t mean they can''t be a targetman.[/quote]

Quite right imo people take the phrase targetman to mean someone 6ft 2+ to hoof the ball at. All he needs to be is someone who can work himself into a position where he can receive the ball, shield it form the CB and redistribute it.

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Lineker was very correct, afterall he was one hell of a striker and not the tallest!

 

I''ve said all along although a big player with good aeriel ability would be advantagious, we are lacking wingers who come up with the goods consistently and our general attitiude to attacking is not direct enough. Croft on Saturday actually produced the goods for a change and put in some decent crosses which led to Lupolis great 2nd goal but he doesn''t do that enough. Also we are playing nice football in front of the opposition but aren''t putting them under pressure by getting behind them. We need more consistancy from croft and hope that Bells as good as what some are saying but we still miss that winger who can regularly run at defenses and put in good crosses, assists and score goals!

 

Ah but I remember we released one such player at the end of last season whos now plying his trade for the Earthquakes in the USA!

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