Loans (everybody does it )

xxxx · August 3, 2008

Barnsley - 0Birmingham -1Blackpool - 3Bristol City - 0Burnley - 0Cardiff - 1Charlton - 0Coventry - 0Palace - 0Derby - 2Doncaster - 0Ipswich - 0Norwich - 5Forest - 1Plymouth - 0Preston -1QPR - 3Reading - 0Sheff Utd - 2Sheff Wed - 1Southampton - 0Swansea - 0Watford - 0Wolves - 0 So its not strictly true that everybody uses the loan system as much as us , in fact we are way out in front with probably plenty more to come . Time for Norwich City to have their own squad of players , surely we are not the poorest club in this division .Wheres the money gone Delia ?

alex_ncfc · August 3, 2008

[quote user="Dictator Smith"]Barnsley - 0
Birmingham -1
Blackpool - 3
Bristol City - 0
Burnley - 0
Cardiff - 1
Charlton - 0
Coventry - 0
Palace - 0
Derby - 2
Doncaster - 0
Ipswich - 0
Norwich - 5
Forest - 1
Plymouth - 0
Preston -1
QPR - 3
Reading - 0
Sheff Utd - 2
Sheff Wed - 1
Southampton - 0
Swansea - 0
Watford - 0
Wolves - 0

So its not strictly true that everybody uses the loan system as much as us , in fact we are way out in front with probably plenty more to come . Time for Norwich City to have their own squad of players , surely we are not the poorest club in this division .Wheres the money gone Delia ?
[/quote]

Quite the fact that the "negative brigade" get hammered for "not letting the facts get in the way of a good moan", all we are hearing lately from the ultra-positive is that loans are a "fact of life" and that all Championship teams are using them. This post quite firmly puts that one out of the window...

TheCardinal · August 3, 2008

I bet that table will be significantly altered come this time next month.

TheCardinal · August 3, 2008

[quote user="alex_ncfc"]

[quote user="Dictator Smith"]Barnsley - 0Birmingham -1Blackpool - 3Bristol City - 0Burnley - 0Cardiff - 1Charlton - 0Coventry - 0Palace - 0Derby - 2Doncaster - 0Ipswich - 0Norwich - 5Forest - 1Plymouth - 0Preston -1QPR - 3Reading - 0Sheff Utd - 2Sheff Wed - 1Southampton - 0Swansea - 0Watford - 0Wolves - 0 So its not strictly true that everybody uses the loan system as much as us , in fact we are way out in front with probably plenty more to come . Time for Norwich City to have their own squad of players , surely we are not the poorest club in this division .Wheres the money gone Delia ? [/quote]

Quite the fact that the "negative brigade" get hammered for "not letting the facts get in the way of a good moan", all we are hearing lately from the ultra-positive is that loans are a "fact of life" and that all Championship teams are using them. This post quite firmly puts that one out of the window...

[/quote]Wrong. Many loans will be sorted between now and the end of the loan window. And as I''ve said, I bet everyone will by the start of the next transfer window have at least one loan.

alex_ncfc · August 3, 2008

[quote user="TheMarshmallowMonkey"]I bet that table will be significantly altered come this time next month.
[/quote]

We are not talking about next month, we are talking about now - and we appear to be a team building our squad on loans, whereas others have very few, some, none at all.

TheCardinal · August 3, 2008

[quote user="alex_ncfc"]

[quote user="TheMarshmallowMonkey"]I bet that table will be significantly altered come this time next month. [/quote]

We are not talking about next month, we are talking about now - and we appear to be a team building our squad on loans, whereas others have very few, some, none at all.

[/quote]No, we''re talking about the arguement that all Championships use loanees. There''s no time constraint on this arguement - you are merely twisting half baked facts to suit you. Fact is, that come the end of the loan window, all Championship clubs will have a loanee in their squad.

TheCardinal · August 3, 2008

[quote user="TheMarshmallowMonkey"][quote user="alex_ncfc"]

[quote user="TheMarshmallowMonkey"]I bet that table will be significantly altered come this time next month. [/quote]

We are not talking about next month, we are talking about now - and we appear to be a team building our squad on loans, whereas others have very few, some, none at all.

[/quote]No, we''re talking about the arguement that all Championship teams use loanees. There''s no time constraint on this arguement - you are merely twisting half baked facts to suit you. Fact is, that come the end of the loan window, all Championship clubs will have a loanee in their squad. [/quote]

Barclay_Boy · August 3, 2008

[quote user="Dictator Smith"]Barnsley - 0
Birmingham -1
Blackpool - 3
Bristol City - 0
Burnley - 0
Cardiff - 1
Charlton - 0
Coventry - 0
Palace - 0
Derby - 2
Doncaster - 0
Ipswich - 0
Norwich - 5
Forest - 1
Plymouth - 0
Preston -1
QPR - 3
Reading - 0
Sheff Utd - 2
Sheff Wed - 1
Southampton - 0
Swansea - 0
Watford - 0
Wolves - 0

So its not strictly true that everybody uses the loan system as much as us , in fact we are way out in front with probably plenty more to come . Time for Norwich City to have their own squad of players , surely we are not the poorest club in this division .Wheres the money gone Delia ?
[/quote]

Well done mate, we are not the poorest club in this division by a long way, but we are the tightest when it comes to parting with money for players. Would be interesting to see the size of each squad as well, I bet even with those 5 extra on loan we don''t compare too well with most of the others.

Felixfan · August 3, 2008

Worth bearing in mind that the loan clubs are often the most successfull ones,and that not all Premier clubs will trust Championship managers with their players, so on that basis we have done very well.

NCFC_Thain · August 3, 2008

And we''ve added more players than the vast majority of the division.

August 3, 2008

[quote user="alex_ncfc"]

[quote user="Dictator Smith"]Barnsley - 0
Birmingham -1
Blackpool - 3
Bristol City - 0
Burnley - 0
Cardiff - 1
Charlton - 0
Coventry - 0
Palace - 0
Derby - 2
Doncaster - 0
Ipswich - 0
Norwich - 5
Forest - 1
Plymouth - 0
Preston -1
QPR - 3
Reading - 0
Sheff Utd - 2
Sheff Wed - 1
Southampton - 0
Swansea - 0
Watford - 0
Wolves - 0

So its not strictly true that everybody uses the loan system as much as us , in fact we are way out in front with probably plenty more to come . Time for Norwich City to have their own squad of players , surely we are not the poorest club in this division .Wheres the money gone Delia ?
[/quote]

Quite the fact that the "negative brigade" get hammered for "not letting the facts get in the way of a good moan", all we are hearing lately from the ultra-positive is that loans are a "fact of life" and that all Championship teams are using them. This post quite firmly puts that one out of the window...

[/quote]

Excellent factual evidence Dictator Smith.......

Loans are a sure sign of desperation and a short term fix for a long term problem. The players coming here know it''s just for a short period and will duly dawdle around earning their lunch while waiting to go back "home"......

Anything worth having will be welcomed back to their clubs...anything resembling crap will be offered to us to buy. Simple logic dictates.

Paul Lamberts Disciple · August 3, 2008

[quote user="TheMarshmallowMonkey"]Fact is, that come the end of the loan window, all Championship clubs will have a loanee in their squad. [/quote]yes, and we will have one or two more as well. You seem to be struggling witht he concept of relativity. We as a club are significantly more dependent on loans than other teams in the division. If you cant appreciate that basic fact, nobody can help you.

TheCardinal · August 3, 2008

[quote user="Felixfan"]

Worth bearing in mind that the loan clubs are often the most successfull ones,and that not all Premier clubs will trust Championship managers with their players, so on that basis we have done very well.

[/quote]Yep, totally right [Y]Let''s take a look at last season''s table:1 West Brom - Had loanees (Moore)2 Stoke City - Had loanees (Shawcross)3 Hull City - Had loanees (Campbell)4 Bristol City - No loanees5 Crystal Palace - Had loans (Idrizaj)6 Watford - Had loanees (John)7 Wolves - Had loanees (Gibson)8 Ipswich Town - Had loanees (Kuqi)9 Sheffield United - Had loanees (Cahill)10 Plymouth Argyle - Had loanees (Russell, Teale)11 Charlton Athletic - Had loanees (Lita)12 Cardiff City - Had loanees (Enckleman)13 Burnley - Had loanees (Cole)14 QPR - Had loanees (Sahar)15 Preston NE - Had loanees (Beattie)16 Sheffield Wednesday - Had loanees (Kavanagh)17 NORWICH CITY - Had loanees18 Barnsley - Had loanees - (Steele, Nardiello, Macken etc)19 Blackpool - Had loanees (Dickov)20 Southampton - Had loanees (Wright)21 Coventry City - Had loanees (Schmeical)22 Leicester City - Had loanees (Hendrie)23 Scunthorpe - Had loanees (Cork)24 Colchester United - Had loanees (Virgo) So during last season, all sides except Bristol City, IIRC, had at least one loanee. I''m sorry but IMO that is conclusive proof.

Buncey · August 3, 2008

http://www.pinkun.com/cs/forums/1196996/ShowPost.aspxHave a look at that thread. In addition to that, I''ve just mucked around with some of the numbers and got this:

IN
Average T-half	3.666666667
Average Bottom	4.25

Average Promoted	5.333333333
Average relegated	5.333333333
Average Playoffs	2.75
Average 4 above releg	4.25

Hardly conclusive evidence that signing more loanees will result in a bad performance. The teams that loaned in the most players (at the time I did these records) Leicester and Stoke achieved very different results (leicester also loaned out 9 players). This leads me to believe that it''s not the number of loanees you bring in, but the quality of those loanees. Of course some managers are better at spotting talent than other, and some better at getting the right loanees in (Pulis and Roeder) and some not (Holloway). That leaves it to discussing whether Roeder is bringing in the right loan players, and on last years evidence it appears he does, so maybe aiming towards the stoke model is the right idea....

alex_ncfc · August 3, 2008

[quote user="TheMarshmallowMonkey"][quote user="alex_ncfc"]

[quote user="TheMarshmallowMonkey"]I bet that table will be significantly altered come this time next month.
[/quote]

We are not talking about next month, we are talking about now - and we appear to be a team building our squad on loans, whereas others have very few, some, none at all.

[/quote]

No, we''re talking about the arguement that all Championships use loanees. There''s no time constraint on this arguement - you are merely twisting half baked facts to suit you.

Fact is, that come the end of the loan window, all Championship clubs will have a loanee in their squad.
[/quote]

And you are twisting them to support you, because it is not yet a fact, it is an assumption.

TheCardinal · August 3, 2008

[quote user="Jim Duffy"][quote user="TheMarshmallowMonkey"]Fact is, that come the end of the loan window, all Championship clubs will have a loanee in their squad. [/quote]yes, and we will have one or two more as well. You seem to be struggling witht he concept of relativity. We as a club are significantly more dependent on loans than other teams in the division. If you cant appreciate that basic fact, nobody can help you.[/quote]I think it''s plainly obvious that we are more reliant on loans than many others and that''s plainly due to our lack of funds. However, this arguement is not about our reliance on loanees, it''s about Championship teams use of loans - and that everyone uses them.

TheCardinal · August 3, 2008

[quote user="alex_ncfc"][quote user="TheMarshmallowMonkey"][quote user="alex_ncfc"]

[quote user="TheMarshmallowMonkey"]I bet that table will be significantly altered come this time next month. [/quote]

We are not talking about next month, we are talking about now - and we appear to be a team building our squad on loans, whereas others have very few, some, none at all.

[/quote]No, we''re talking about the arguement that all Championships use loanees. There''s no time constraint on this arguement - you are merely twisting half baked facts to suit you. Fact is, that come the end of the loan window, all Championship clubs will have a loanee in their squad. [/quote]

And you are twisting them to support you, because it is not yet a fact, it is an assumption.

[/quote]I love it when people like you can''t argue with my posts so instead argue with the semantics.

Joanna Grey · August 3, 2008

[quote user="Neil Cluckcaster"]

Excellent factual evidence Dictator Smith.......

Loans are a sure sign of desperation and a short term fix for a long term problem. The players coming here know it''s just for a short period and will duly dawdle around earning their lunch while waiting to go back "home"......

Anything worth having will be welcomed back to their clubs...anything resembling crap will be offered to us to buy. Simple logic dictates.

[/quote]

Yep, like Taylor, Bates, Evans, Pearce, Bertrand, Gibbs..... born dawdlers, didn''t add anything to the squad last season.

alex_ncfc · August 3, 2008

[quote user="TheMarshmallowMonkey"][quote user="alex_ncfc"][quote user="TheMarshmallowMonkey"][quote user="alex_ncfc"]

[quote user="TheMarshmallowMonkey"]I bet that table will be significantly altered come this time next month.
[/quote]

We are not talking about next month, we are talking about now - and we appear to be a team building our squad on loans, whereas others have very few, some, none at all.

[/quote]

No, we''re talking about the arguement that all Championships use loanees. There''s no time constraint on this arguement - you are merely twisting half baked facts to suit you.

Fact is, that come the end of the loan window, all Championship clubs will have a loanee in their squad.
[/quote]

And you are twisting them to support you, because it is not yet a fact, it is an assumption.

[/quote]

I love it when people like you can''t argue with my posts so instead argue with the semantics.
[/quote]

You love it do you? Don''t get too excited...

And is that your posts under this ident or your other?

alex_ncfc · August 3, 2008

[quote user="bunny"][quote user="Neil Cluckcaster"]

Excellent factual evidence Dictator Smith.......

Loans are a sure sign of desperation and a short term fix for a long term problem. The players coming here know it''s just for a short period and will duly dawdle around earning their lunch while waiting to go back "home"......

Anything worth having will be welcomed back to their clubs...anything resembling crap will be offered to us to buy. Simple logic dictates.

[/quote]

Yep, like Taylor, Bates, Evans, Pearce, Bertrand, Gibbs..... born dawdlers, didn''t add anything to the squad last season.

[/quote]

And bar Bertrand, where are they now?

missing in action? · August 3, 2008

[quote user="alex_ncfc"][quote user="bunny"][quote user="Neil Cluckcaster"]

Excellent factual evidence Dictator Smith.......

Loans are a sure sign of desperation and a short term fix for a long term problem. The players coming here know it''s just for a short period and will duly dawdle around earning their lunch while waiting to go back "home"......

Anything worth having will be welcomed back to their clubs...anything resembling crap will be offered to us to buy. Simple logic dictates.

[/quote]

Yep, like Taylor, Bates, Evans, Pearce, Bertrand, Gibbs..... born dawdlers, didn''t add anything to the squad last season.

[/quote]

And bar Bertrand, where are they now?

[/quote]Bates: injured (knee)taylor: pushing for first team after mcleish said he liked him as a player.Evans: scoring goals for fun for wales and man citypearce: been playing international footy and is back at readingGibbs: just finished playing for England U19''S in euro championships...all rubbish arent they...what point were you trying to make?

The Fish Seller · August 3, 2008

[quote user="TheMarshmallowMonkey"][quote user="alex_ncfc"][quote user="TheMarshmallowMonkey"][quote user="alex_ncfc"]

[quote user="TheMarshmallowMonkey"]I bet that table will be significantly altered come this time next month. [/quote]

We are not talking about next month, we are talking about now - and we appear to be a team building our squad on loans, whereas others have very few, some, none at all.

[/quote]No, we''re talking about the arguement that all Championships use loanees. There''s no time constraint on this arguement - you are merely twisting half baked facts to suit you. Fact is, that come the end of the loan window, all Championship clubs will have a loanee in their squad. [/quote]

And you are twisting them to support you, because it is not yet a fact, it is an assumption.

[/quote]I love it when people like you can''t argue with my posts so instead argue with the semantics. [/quote]Alex is quite correect to assert that you are stating an assumpton as fact, it''s not a question of semantics, Alex and the OP are talking about the present, you have chosen to talk about the past and the future but singularly have failed to acknowledge the point made which concerns the present.You also state as fact that all Champ Clubs will have loanees in their squads at the end of the transfer window based on historical evidence.You have failed to take into account that each Prem team will be fielding two extra substitutes this year by virtue of the new ruling and therefore for each Prem match a further four players will be required. This means approximately 50 Prem players per week will be involved in their own teams action. Prem teams will have the luxury now of not only fielding second choice players but also third choice players in certain positions. This represents a significant drop in volume in the number of players available to the loan system and is the inherent flaw in your argument that because last year saw "x" number of loans that the same will be true this year.

The Fish Seller · August 3, 2008

(whoops should have read)Alex is quite correect to assert that you are stating an assumpton as

fact, it''s not a question of semantics, Alex and the OP are talking

about the present, you have chosen to talk about the past and the

future but singularly have failed to acknowledge the point made which

concerns the present.You also state as fact that all Champ Clubs

will have loanees in their squads at the end of the transfer window

based on historical evidence.You have failed to take into account

that each Prem team will be fielding two extra substitutes this year by

virtue of the new ruling and therefore for each Prem match a further

four players will be required. This means approximately 50 MORE Prem players

per week will be involved in their own teams action. Prem teams will

have the luxury now of not only fielding second choice players but also

third choice players in certain positions. This represents a

significant drop in volume in the number of players available to the

loan system and is the inherent flaw in your argument that because last

year saw "x" number of loans that the same will be true this year.

xxxx · August 3, 2008

[quote user="jay kay"][quote user="alex_ncfc"][quote user="bunny"][quote user="Neil Cluckcaster"]

Excellent factual evidence Dictator Smith.......

Loans are a sure sign of desperation and a short term fix for a long term problem. The players coming here know it''s just for a short period and will duly dawdle around earning their lunch while waiting to go back "home"......

Anything worth having will be welcomed back to their clubs...anything resembling crap will be offered to us to buy. Simple logic dictates.

[/quote]

Yep, like Taylor, Bates, Evans, Pearce, Bertrand, Gibbs..... born dawdlers, didn''t add anything to the squad last season.

[/quote]

And bar Bertrand, where are they now?

[/quote]Bates: injured (knee)taylor: pushing for first team after mcleish said he liked him as a player.Evans: scoring goals for fun for wales and man citypearce: been playing international footy and is back at readingGibbs: just finished playing for England U19''S in euro championships...all rubbish arent they...what point were you trying to make?[/quote]I think the point he is trying to make is that they are not here now , sign your own players and they tend to be around for a while , next summer this 2nd batch will have all returned to their own clubs and we are back to square one again .

canary cherub · August 3, 2008

[quote user="jay kay"][quote user="alex_ncfc"][quote user="bunny"][quote user="Neil Cluckcaster"]

Excellent factual evidence Dictator Smith.......

Loans are a sure sign of desperation and a short term fix for a long term problem. The players coming here know it''s just for a short period and will duly dawdle around earning their lunch while waiting to go back "home"......

Anything worth having will be welcomed back to their clubs...anything resembling crap will be offered to us to buy. Simple logic dictates.

[/quote]

Yep, like Taylor, Bates, Evans, Pearce, Bertrand, Gibbs..... born dawdlers, didn''t add anything to the squad last season.

[/quote]

And bar Bertrand, where are they now?

[/quote]
Bates: injured (knee)
taylor: pushing for first team after mcleish said he liked him as a player.
Evans: scoring goals for fun for wales and man city
pearce: been playing international footy and is back at reading
Gibbs: just finished playing for England U19''S in euro championships...

all rubbish arent they...what point were you trying to make?
[/quote]

The point jay is that they are no longer here.

Excessive reliance on loanees was acceptable last season (just about) as a short term fix to keep us up, but as a long term strategy it''s a non starter if we have any ambition at all to build a promotion challenging team again.

missing in action? · August 3, 2008

[quote user="Fat Strawberry"][quote user="jay kay"][quote user="alex_ncfc"][quote user="bunny"][quote user="Neil Cluckcaster"]

Excellent factual evidence Dictator Smith.......

Loans are a sure sign of desperation and a short term fix for a long term problem. The players coming here know it''s just for a short period and will duly dawdle around earning their lunch while waiting to go back "home"......

Anything worth having will be welcomed back to their clubs...anything resembling crap will be offered to us to buy. Simple logic dictates.

[/quote]

Yep, like Taylor, Bates, Evans, Pearce, Bertrand, Gibbs..... born dawdlers, didn''t add anything to the squad last season.

[/quote]

And bar Bertrand, where are they now?

[/quote]Bates: injured (knee)taylor: pushing for first team after mcleish said he liked him as a player.Evans: scoring goals for fun for wales and man citypearce: been playing international footy and is back at readingGibbs: just finished playing for England U19''S in euro championships...all rubbish arent they...what point were you trying to make?[/quote]

The point jay is that they are no longer here.

Excessive reliance on loanees was acceptable last season (just about) as a short term fix to keep us up, but as a long term strategy it''s a non starter if we have any ambition at all to build a promotion challenging team again.

[/quote]i understand that, but i dont agree that its a non starter, because, a good season with the loanee''s can get us a good league position which brings in money or even promotion. or even if you sign one of these loanees permanently (which i think we will) then in the end its good business sense. im not saying it would happen but you never know what to expect with this bloody club!

2Cakes · August 3, 2008

I really don''t understand people''s negativity towards loans.I think it is great that we seem to be able to exploit this

system better than other teams in the division. This must give us an

advantage.Loans seem a great way of getting near premiership quality players into the team. For the most part we wouldn''t be able to buy this standard of player, regardless of finances, because they are not for sale. For example, how much do we think it would have cost to persuade Man City to permanently part with Ched last year? True they aren''t going to stay around for ever, but no player with true premiership potential is going to stay with a championship side long term even if they are permanent. They move onwards and upwards. If we had managed to buy Ched last year, would we have been able to hold onto him over the summer? I doubt it.

can u sit down please · August 3, 2008

Bloody hell you bunch of moaners! We released alot of players (17 i think) we simply cannot afford to buy new ones so we are plugging the gap to have a SQUAD! FFS ppl, its not rocket science. I suppose QPR are skint paupers too with there 3, soon to be 4 loans.....

That boy Tevez......he''s on loan aint he? They are not a bad thing!

TheCardinal · August 3, 2008

[quote user="Roedy Cant Fail"](whoops should have read)Alex is quite correect to assert that you are stating an assumpton as