OT - 3000th Post - Special Debate

Camuldonum · August 1, 2008

BBC terribly easy to beat on the road. A joy, in fact.

"I don''t think we can say that."

Of course not.

Camuldonum · August 1, 2008

PS: They are nearly always the last to turn up at any major scene. Locally it will be a race between the EDP and/or Radio Norfolk and the local branch of ITN.

Samantha usually turns up later with: "Anyone know what''s going on? I''ve a piece to camera in 20 minutes."

Blesss...................

Desi Rascall · August 1, 2008

"I''m still interested in people''s thoughts, particularly on the issue of control through the media... "

George Bernard Shaw once remarked that the Newspapers are unable, seemingly to discriminate between a bicycle accident and the collapse of civilization.And whilst it may be true that on a slow news day, "BICYCLE CRASH" is delivered with the same gravitas as "WORLD ENDS",the Modern Spin Doctor recognises that given the choice between running with news of a major terrorist incident or dissapointing statistics on railway performance,most editors would lead with the former, which led Jo Moore, the then press secretary to Transport Minister Stephen Byers to declare (via e-mail) that September 11th 2001 to be a "Good day to bury bad news".

Evil you and most people reacing this far probally have read up on Alister Cambells Grid System,but for the benifit of the casual reader http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2007/may/11/pressandpublishing.politics1 ,

the grid was responsible for making sure David Blunket was available to give the sun an interview to announce new policies on immigration in during their week long campaign "Asylum Week". A week long campaign of scare stories about asylum seekers including the infamous "Swan Bake",culminating in a Exclusive Interview by the then home office minister with the paper to announce tougher mesures, including cutting off benefits. the interview was scheduled for thursday so the friday edition could include a glowing editorial for the Government for their quick response and willingness to listen to the papers readers. The Mail was to later leak the story in what one supposes might have been an injured sense of proprietary.

http://www.mailonsunday.co.uk/news/article-303867/How-Campbell-worked-spin.html

Then of course there was the "Sexed Up" claims in the Iraq WMD dossier

http://iraqdossier.com/

http://projects.publicintegrity.org/WarCard/Default.aspx?src=home&context=overview&id=945

Probally worth reading up on fisk and the culture of embeded reporting in which, reporters and their editors are encouraged to give up their Impartiality in return for a ride on a challenger tank, i''ll dig up a few articles later if your interested.

On the other side of the scale Justice Eady, the judge at the centre of the Max Mosely privacy row, has done more to protect the rich and the wealthy from proper scrutiny,so much so that Britain has become the Centre for Libel tourism, for those such as Sheikh Khaild bin Mahfouz

http://www.acdemocracy.org/article/invent_index.php?id=449

Finally Chris Ames runs a blogspot detailing spin and deception http://chrisames.blogspot.com/2008_01_01_archive.html

Desi Rascall · August 1, 2008

[quote user="camuldonum"]

PS: They are nearly always the last to turn up at any major scene. Locally it will be a race between the EDP and/or Radio Norfolk and the local branch of ITN.

Samantha usually turns up later with: "Anyone know what''s going on? I''ve a piece to camera in 20 minutes."

Blesss...................

[/quote]

Might appreciate this cam

http://www.theonion.com/content/video/reporter_in_helicopter_pretty

Camuldonum · August 1, 2008

Sounds about right.

The Butler · August 1, 2008

Belated congrats on 3000 that is stamina!!

NEWS came from the Romans placing information at crossroads for general consumption North east west south. (Not many people now that!)

We have always been drip fed whatever information governments want the populace to have. This has become more difficult with the widespread use of all forms of communication,from mobiles to the internet. It is now far more cunning to fool all of the people all of the time.Unfortunately once you put power into the hands of a "govenment" of whatever persuasion then you remove much of your own freedom of choice, (mummy knows best). All the media tends to do is reflect this depending on their own polital bias and that of their current editor. This applies not just to newspapers but the whole of the media in general. Over the years I have watched/listened to the BBC become far more PC left biased depending on the position of certain individuals within the beebs corridors of power.

Evil Monkey · August 1, 2008

Thanks again to everyone for their responses, and Desi Rascall - what a post, exactly

what I was looking for, I''ll take a look at those links when I''ve got a

bit more time. I don''t have any media training or knowledge at

all other than what I''ve learnt myself, which is why I came to you guys

and you didn''t let me down [:)]

I guess I''d better let you in on the reason for my asking all this, to

clarify what my thinking is. I''ve mentioned on here previously

about my plans to write a series of sci-fi stories, and part of the

second book (yes, its that big an idea) involves a future society not

unlike that of the Romans (in terms of politics and barbarism, not

technology obviously) which is why I found the Rome comments

interesting. I want to include some elements of populus control

through covert means such as the media, but wasn''t entirely sure

whether the concept on such a large scale was feasible. I''m now

thinking that it is and this whole thread has given me some good ideas

for moving the idea on and fleshing it all out, so thanks. I''d

give you all a contribution of the royalties, but I''m expecting the

whole thing to take about 10 years to write, so stay in touch! [;)]

Now that I''ve outed myself as a complete geek, what do people also

think about the distortion of history? They say that history is

written by the victors, but could media control and influence be used

to re-write history and would people buy it? (What about China, do they accept their government''s distortions?)

ncfcstar · August 1, 2008

As a history student, currently going into my third year I feel I am in a good position to debate this, while as like yourself Evil the other part of the thread was somethings I had learnt off my own back.

Without a doubt, history before the modern era was written by the victors, as Europe was the main contributor and was the centre of all world politics and discovery, the exception to this rule would have the be the Middle East, especially during the Crusades where valuable sources are available from both sides in the Holy Wars.

Modern history on the other hand is a far more ''objective'' source, and more often than not you will have information for both sides of the debate (I could go into the schools of thought throughout history, but that would be both boring and extensive). Therefore with an objective outlook, to say history is written by the victors is a fairly generalised opinion, especially as the contribution that these schools of thought have given to history has led to the re-thinking of many historical events, using both primary and contemporary sources.

Therefore in my opinion media control and influence could not be used to ''re-write'' history per se, as it is a worldwide study, and can not really be considered as the specialist study of a select few countries. In states like China it is remained to be seen as whether there controls have been used to distort historical events, but propaganda most certainly plays a part in the everyday role of their society.

Looking at China (and it''s supposed Communist State), the only forerunner is Soviet Russia, and therefore we can look at the lessons of this state to see if history can be re-written. After the fall of Stalin, it was up to Kruschev to admit that a ''Cult of Personality'' had developed around the control of the regime, and the events of the Stalin regime and to a much lesser extent Lenin''s control were glossed over. The losses in the GUlag''s probably amount to the same as the losses the SU faced during WWII, but many of the Soviet population didn''t know this. Propaganda was used so much during this period, that the tyrant that everyone knows Stalin was, was seen rather as the symbol of a ''great nation'' by his people, some who still want a return to his control even today. It obviously continued throughout the regimes, arguably ending with Glasnost, but the controls are, debatably, still existing even today under the new President.

The problem is, even though your own population may buy it, the rest of the world will always have their eyes set on important events, so an attempt to ''re-write'' history in the modern world is nigh-on impossible.

Beauseant · August 1, 2008

Evil Monkey wrote the following post at 01/08/2008 10:48 AM:

Thanks again to everyone for their responses, and Desi Rascall - what a post, exactly what I was looking for, I''ll take a look at those links when I''ve got a bit more time. I don''t have any media training or knowledge at all other than what I''ve learnt myself, which is why I came to you guys and you didn''t let me down Smile [:)]

I guess I''d better let you in on the reason for my asking all this, to clarify what my thinking is. I''ve mentioned on here previously about my plans to write a series of sci-fi stories, and part of the second book (yes, its that big an idea) involves a future society not unlike that of the Romans (in terms of politics and barbarism, not technology obviously) which is why I found the Rome comments interesting. I want to include some elements of populus control through covert means such as the media, but wasn''t entirely sure whether the concept on such a large scale was feasible. I''m now thinking that it is and this whole thread has given me some good ideas for moving the idea on and fleshing it all out, so thanks. I''d give you all a contribution of the royalties, but I''m expecting the whole thing to take about 10 years to write, so stay in touch! Wink [;)]

Now that I''ve outed myself as a complete geek, what do people also think about the distortion of history? They say that history is written by the victors, but could media control and influence be used to re-write history and would people buy it? (What about China, do they accept their government''s distortions?)

That sounds like a heck of a project,and I look forward to reading the results!

As to your new point,I think that the answer has to be yes,because its all about access to information.Think of the huge gap in our historical knowledge as a result of the burning down of the library of Alexandria,which may or may not have been a deliberate act by the nascent christian church to remove awkward information from public access.The suppression of the Dead Sea and Nag Hammadi scrolls is another example.If you can keep facts away from people,as the Chinese government has done sucessfully in the past,you can control them.Of course in the age of the internet and instant communication,that''s not so simple anymore,but when the majority couldn''t read and lived and died in their villages it was so much easier.

Good luck with the books mate!

ncfcstar · August 1, 2008

I''m not sure I agree Beauseant, historical events such as this apply more to religious doctrine and the control in the end of the Catholic Church. At the time it would lead to their obvious control, but now we can see look back on history and develop our own opinions, and hence the Catholic Church is now in turmoil.

Beauseant · August 1, 2008

The point that you make is perfectly valid,NCFC star,but the counter point that I would make is that until the development of newspapers, religious doctrine and "the media" were pretty much one and the same thing,I also agree with your previous point about control being localised and reevaluated with the benefit of historical perspective,but again I think we are not that far apart,in that we agree that its all about information being available in order for people to make informed judgements.However,my point that some information has been removed forever(Alexandria and the destruction of Greek texts by Sulla being just two examples) and that this has "rewritten " history still stands,although I accept that something similar could hardly happen in the modern world.

Good to hear from a fellow history student,although my third year was,sadly,long ago!!

Evil Monkey · August 1, 2008

Again, you''ve both stumbled across more aspects of the story I have in

mind - religion and the collapse of a civilisation... if the walls of

the great library are crumbling, will anyone rush to save the truth or

will history be allowed to crumble with it? I would say the truth

is out there, but I think its already been done...[:)]

Shaun Tilly Lace · August 1, 2008

I''ll be lucky to amass 1,000 posts the way the glitches in the Archant computer network manage to close my accounts. I''ve only lost two so far. It''s quite annoying when you see the message "invalid user credentials", then you try and retry but the damned system just won''t allow you to log in.

BlyBlyBabes · August 1, 2008

[quote user="camuldonum"]

PS: They are nearly always the last to turn up at any major scene. Locally it will be a race between the EDP and/or Radio Norfolk and the local branch of ITN.

Samantha usually turns up later with: "Anyone know what''s going on? I''ve a piece to camera in 20 minutes."

Blesss...................

[/quote]

I find it rather refreshing that the BBC and Samantha don''t rush around like a blue-arsed fly - ''ambulance chasing?''.

There''s a great deal to be said for taking a measured approach.

Well, bless my soul.

One love.

OTBC

macdougalls perm · August 1, 2008

[quote user="Evil Monkey"]Thanks again to everyone for their responses, and Desi Rascall - what a post, exactly what I was looking for, I''ll take a look at those links when I''ve got a bit more time. I don''t have any media training or knowledge at all other than what I''ve learnt myself, which is why I came to you guys and you didn''t let me down [:)]

I guess I''d better let you in on the reason for my asking all this, to clarify what my thinking is. I''ve mentioned on here previously about my plans to write a series of sci-fi stories, and part of the second book (yes, its that big an idea) involves a future society not unlike that of the Romans (in terms of politics and barbarism, not technology obviously) which is why I found the Rome comments interesting. I want to include some elements of populus control through covert means such as the media, but wasn''t entirely sure whether the concept on such a large scale was feasible. I''m now thinking that it is and this whole thread has given me some good ideas for moving the idea on and fleshing it all out, so thanks. I''d give you all a contribution of the royalties, but I''m expecting the whole thing to take about 10 years to write, so stay in touch! [;)]

Now that I''ve outed myself as a complete geek, what do people also think about the distortion of history? They say that history is written by the victors, but could media control and influence be used to re-write history and would people buy it? (What about China, do they accept their government''s distortions?)

[/quote]

Have you read Michel Foucault''s ''Discipline and Punish'', chapter 5 (I think it is) on Jeremy Bentham''s ''panopticon'' - he applies it as a kind of metaphor for the mechanisms of a surveillance society; ''you don''t have to be watched all the while as long as you think you are being'' - Orwellian/community self surveillance kind of thing. Some aspects of and verbal images in that chapter are pretty ''memorable'' and might suggest something for your Roman style civilisation. In other essays/books, also, he writes a lot about the ways in which architecture and the design of space is used as a control mechanism or conduit of power - that might be pretty suggestive.

macdougalls perm · August 1, 2008

What I mean is, EM, that he talks about technologies of power and control that don''t involve what we think of as modern ''technology''. Might be a good layout for the city or whatever environment you had in mind.

Desi Rascall · August 1, 2008

you might want to take a look at Asimovs Foundation series, as his inspiration for it was the rise and fall of the roman empire. His Dark age was shaped by Social Sciences rather than religion, Psychohistory being a mixture of psycoanalysis,mathematical probability and mass psycology.As the foundation series was written between the late forties and mid eighties Its interesting to see how Asimovs interpretation of psycohistory was a reflection of its times, from the early optimism in science and retionalism of the trueman era,though the control through fear of the mccarthy era, to a jaded disillusionment of the post vietnam era, to new age enviromental mysticalism of the mid eighties.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundation_series

Asimov also wrote a series of magazine essays for aspiring sci-fi writers which were later collected into Asimov Gold, which might be worth tracking down.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_(Asimov)

Evil Monkey · August 4, 2008

[quote user=" Desi Rascall"]

you might want to take a look at Asimovs

Foundation series, as his inspiration for it was the rise and fall of

the roman empire. His Dark age was shaped by Social Sciences rather

than religion, Psychohistory being a mixture of

psycoanalysis,mathematical probability and mass psycology.As the

foundation series was written between the late forties and mid eighties

Its interesting to see how Asimovs interpretation of psycohistory was a

reflection of its times, from the early optimism in science and

retionalism of the trueman era,though the control through fear of the

mccarthy era, to a jaded disillusionment of the post vietnam era, to

new age enviromental mysticalism of the mid

eighties.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundation_series

Asimov also wrote a series of magazine essays for aspiring sci-fi

writers which were later collected into Asimov Gold, which might be

worth tracking down.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_(Asimov)

[/quote]

Dude, Asimov is my favourite writer of all time, Foundation is my

favourite series of books of all time and those books have been at

least partially responsible for the "collapse of civilisation" theme

that will be adopted for the second book, and I take no shame in

admitting that for I''ll only ever be able to take inspiration from

rather than emulate his ideas or style... He is God.

Incidentally, there are plans afoot to adapt Foundation for the big screen, announced last week

(check out some of the user comments on that article - ahem). I''m

more than slightly concerned about how its handled - now I know what it

was like to be a Tolkien geek a few years ago! But it still excited me

so much I let out a little wee.... (not really, but I was very excited)

Anyway, back to topic, cheers MacDP, I''ll take a look if I get a

chance. I''m currently reading a book to research some of the

other themes I have planned so will add this to my list of essential

reading![Y]

Evil Monkey · August 4, 2008