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PROTEST AGAINST DELIA AND THE BOARD

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For what it''s worth I believe that Mello Yellow has some valid thoughts.

All this "ambition with prudence" nonense from the Board is aload of rubbish. I''ve got ambition to do things but I probably won''t get to do them. I don''t feel the Board is open enough to the supporters with exactly HOW it will achieve such ambition. Whenever have you heard them say there''s a 3 year plan to get this club into the Premiership? Only Roeder has stated that recently. To me it seems GR & the Board are going off in separate directions. GR has the ambition, the Board want to stay in their cosy little comfort zone. After all Neil Doncaster wouldn''t have his place on the Board of the FA if he wasn''t sitting in Carrow Road Towers.

And where has all the money gone? Neil Doncaster has been quoted this morning that the Board have personally dipped into their own funds to pay for some of the players we have signed this summer. If that is the case where has GR''s budget gone to? Why should the Board have to stump up their own cash to fund transfers. Trust them? I trust no one.

But why should we give the Board credit for hiring Roeder when they were also the ones to hire Peter Grant and trust his judgement in the transfer market. They haven''t learnt about last year. For God''s sake we were that close to getting relegated and probably going into Administration ourselves.

Down Under, I think you are exaggerating somewhat!!. You quote that "50% of league clubs have gone into Administration", "Many clubs on Premiership relegation have slipped to League 1 or lower". There''s been lots of promises made by NCFC but when push comes to shove they have not materialised.

 

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[quote user="mr carra"][quote user="yellow hammer"]

The main point about trading shares publically is that it makes control easier to pass from one person to another, it doesn''t influence how that person exercises that control. There is absolutely no reason why Delia, or come to that Cullum or A.N. Other, could not turn Carrow Road into a block of flats regardless of how they gained control of the majority of the shares. What it takes is for the owner to act in the best interests of NCFC rather than in their own interests, and listing on Ofex neither increases nor decreases the likelihood of that happening.There is no guarantee that the majority shareholders of an unlisted company will not see the future in fixed assets rather than football. After all, isn''t this what many people said about Chase, are saying about Smith, and are now beginning to point the finger at Evans down the road? Being unlisted is no protection against those without the best interests of the club at heart.

I agree with you that listing is not going to happen, but not as you say because ''she is going to have less control over her money'' - in fact she will have more control over her money because she can move it in or out of the club more easily - but because ''she is going to have less control over the club'' - the distinction is important because it is the root cause of why many posters feel she will never let go of NCFC.

I kinda like the Arsenal model. They know the key to success is to have the best manager and then support him with the neccessary funds. Because they are in the top four, they attract money. Their new stadium was financed by Emirates money because they are successful, not the other way round. Would you rather be trading Tierry Henry for 16m to finance the new crop of talented European youngsters who actually want to play for the Gunners because they are one of the most successful clubs in the world(and therefore attract the best talent), or would you rather be flogging Lewis to Peterborough to pay the electricity bill?

[/quote]

Hard to know where to begin with this since it is so ridiculous.  Obviously there is no reason Delia could not turn Carrow Road into a block of flats except for the fact that she is a fan and therefore never would.  The protection that not being listed provides is that provided the club retains financial stability Delia can choose to sell when and to whom she pleases and as a fan would clearly have to satisfy herself that such a person also had the best interests of the club at heart - with a listing that control over the club''s future ownership vanishes.  You raise the issue of Evans dubious intentions and Ipswich not being listed as a demonstration that beung unlisted is no protection, but the reason Ipswich''s board had to sell to Evans was because their financial situation was so bad they were no longer in a position to say no to any offer.  They got in that situation by spending over their means (precisely what some people seem to believe this Board should do every year)

For all the arguments about Delia I cannot believe a single person really believes she does not have the best interests of the club at heart (different people obviously have different ideas about how to achieve that goal but let''s not doubt the we do all share a goal). 

Football is an ongoing concern (over 100 years for NCFC and counting) and the long-term future fortunes of this club are governed by far more than how much we spend on players in the next 6 months as some seem to believe

[/quote]Mr Carra - you just said exactly what I was going to say (though probably in less words!). I couldn''t agree more.

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"I''ve got ambition to do things but I probably won''t get to do them"

Why haven''t you then?  You criticise the Board for not having done things they have ambition to do and yet admit that the same is true of you!  The reason they haven''t is the same reason you haven''t - they have to operate in the real world.  Having ambition to do something doesn''t guarantee it happening (after all, if it wasn''t hard to achieve it wouldn''t be much of an ambition, would it?)

"And where has all the money gone?"

Yawn. The club publishes full accounts every year that answer this question.  The new ones will come out in a month or two and then you''ll get the answers.  Nothing is (or could be) covered up.

"For God''s sake we were that close to getting relegated and probably going into Administration ourselves."

Rubbish.  The difference in income between League One and the Championship is nowhere near as large as between the Prem and the Championship so even if we''d been relegated I think it is extremely unlikely we''d have gone into administration.

"But why should we give the Board credit for hiring Roeder when they were also the ones to hire Peter Grant and trust his judgement in the transfer market. They haven''t learnt about last year."

Yes, and they are the same board who appointed Nigel Worthington, who got us to a playoff final and then won the division title.  No Board gets all it''s decisions right, because every decision in football is a huge gamble.  There aren''t any certainties.  Good players/managers at one club do badly at another (Worthy in fact went from being able to do almost no wrong in his first 3/4 years in charge to one who could do almost no right in his last two).  You can''t predict stuff like that, it''s the nature of football.

 

 

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Oh goody goody another debate where people (Despite using the quote button) fail to read what the other poster actually writes but skim over it and assume they say something.

The good issues raised by yellow hammer and others are about the method of control, not claiming that anyone isn''t a fan, or that they are turning a football pitch into flats.

The truth of the matter is that a lot of people like power and the ability to control firstly their own destiny and then the destiny of what/whom they love.

Majority shareholders in large corporate entities may not fall into this but smaller concerns, whether they are family businesses or just businesses where the directors have invested a large chunk of their life will fit into it.  One of these is Norwich City plc.

Delia actually has split loyalties between City and the Delia brand, MWJ probably has as well, but to some extent he has tried to back off the Delia brand and obviously misses some of the buzz he got from a fully functioning Crane (his media business).  So their lives are dominated by City and running it.

They are not "football people" so they naturally moved into the business side (catering and publishing in particular) and because City had no expertise there they were able to stamp their mark.

It has become very much made in their image.

So we have to accept that they would find it difficult to let go of that "power" (quotes as it is overstated really).  They will one day as they have not found immortality and in all honesty despite all our concerns over them trying to extract money, can anyone say that they will not make a gesture like Geoffery Watling has done in the past?

So yes in a way I am a Delia fan, but I also would beg them to take on a wider spread of expertise, and consider how investment can be brought into the Club.

A Chief Executive appointed by a new major investor would be the ideal.

 

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Leftfootdad wrote the following post at 07/08/2008 8:28 AM:

''To me it seems GR & the Board are going off in separate directions. GR has the ambition, the Board want to stay in their cosy little comfort zone. After all Neil Doncaster wouldn''t have his place on the Board of the FA if he wasn''t sitting in Carrow Road Towers.''

-----------------

I understand your concerns, LFD, but although there''llbe a lot of ''spin'' talk, today''s EDP Doomcaster column at least tells us something about what''s going on. But don''t you think it''s too soon to say GR and the board are going in different directions? He couldn''t have depleted the squad so hugely without kowing he had the backing to replace it.

Whatever else I believe or don''t believe in Doomcaster''s column, I have no reason not to believe that they''ve been looking at a new squad since November - and that HAD to be done in the knowledge that Roeder had backing.

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[quote user="Leftfootdad"]

For what it''s worth I believe that Mello Yellow has some valid thoughts.

All this "ambition with prudence" nonense from the Board is aload of rubbish. I''ve got ambition to do things but I probably won''t get to do them. I don''t feel the Board is open enough to the supporters with exactly HOW it will achieve such ambition. Whenever have you heard them say there''s a 3 year plan to get this club into the Premiership? Only Roeder has stated that recently. To me it seems GR & the Board are going off in separate directions. GR has the ambition, the Board want to stay in their cosy little comfort zone. After all Neil Doncaster wouldn''t have his place on the Board of the FA if he wasn''t sitting in Carrow Road Towers.

And where has all the money gone? Neil Doncaster has been quoted this morning that the Board have personally dipped into their own funds to pay for some of the players we have signed this summer. If that is the case where has GR''s budget gone to? Why should the Board have to stump up their own cash to fund transfers. Trust them? I trust no one.

But why should we give the Board credit for hiring Roeder when they were also the ones to hire Peter Grant and trust his judgement in the transfer market. They haven''t learnt about last year. For God''s sake we were that close to getting relegated and probably going into Administration ourselves.

Down Under, I think you are exaggerating somewhat!!. You quote that "50% of league clubs have gone into Administration", "Many clubs on Premiership relegation have slipped to League 1 or lower". There''s been lots of promises made by NCFC but when push comes to shove they have not materialised.

 

[/quote]LeftFoot - where has all WHAT money gone? You do realise that you can''t build a competitive team these days on gate receipts alone? That you need off field investments to make a profit to augment the squad budgets? That loans cost money? If we are to criticise the board for hiring Grant (which we should, and I have) then we must also credit them for hiring Roeder. There is no evidence to suggest the board are going off in seperate directions, quite the contrary. They hired him after all. Why do you think the board are happy in a ''cosy little comfort zone''? Do you have ANY evidence to support such a claim?I would like to see better communication from the board, but you can''t claim they are closed. Two nights ago they were all in IOslington meeting the Capital Canaries. They have the SCG. You can email Doncaster, sometimes he will even call you up in repsonse. You can see Munby and Doncaster at each and every away game. Delia travels and sits with the fans regularly. What other football club board do half of that?40 teams have been in administration, the football league is made up out of 72 clubs. You do the maths. Look at Leicester, Leeds, Notts Forest, Oldham, Bradford, Barnsley,  all down to League One since their Premiership ''adventures''. Wimbledon don''t even exist anymore. What exactly am I exagerating?Also have a look at clubs who are now actively selling players despite still having parachute payments, look for example at Watford and Charlton. Southampton are in real trouble, and many people tip them to go down this season. In the context of all the above, are you still trying to tell me our board have done as disasterously as you suggest?

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[quote user="can u sit down please"]I have a feeling that money has been invested but we are not publicising it while rebuilding our squad. Makes sense to me! It would also link back to the Delia quote for the RNS "we are not like other clubs who talk about how much money they have!" Watch this space......[/quote]

I''ve only just noticed something. 

Delia in her comments is so often divisive.  Why say "not like other clubs"?  It''s superfluous.  Just say "we don''t talk about how much money we have".  "We''re better than them nana nanana".

And similarly "The best fans in the world".  It''s a meaningless phrase and isn''t "fantastic fans" or "marvellous fans" enough?  The "best" fans is not saying much if the rest are rubbish!

I''ve never known a club to be so deeply divided.  There has always been healthy disagreement but this isn''t healthy and it''s become embedded in our mentality now.  And I think I can see where it''s coming from. 

A lot of the pro-board arguments on here justify our club''s mismanagement on the grounds that "we''re not like club X".  That makes it all right then does it?

 

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[quote user="Leftfootdad"]

Down Under, I think you are exaggerating somewhat!!. You quote that "50% of league clubs have gone into Administration", "Many clubs on Premiership relegation have slipped to League 1 or lower". There''s been lots of promises made by NCFC but when push comes to shove they have not materialised.

[/quote]

This article from last year suggests that BDU is right, leftfootdad.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2007/jul/18/newsstory.leedsunited

[quote]To do so would require the League to make an exception in its insolvency policy for Leeds, after standing firm on all the other 41 clubs which have collapsed into insolvency since 1992.[/quote]

There were another 3 clubs who have gone into administration in the last season.

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[quote user="yellow hammer"]

[quote user="Big Down Under"]Then she would have even LESS control over her money!

I would be 100% opposed to listing as a publicly traded company. No sane board would do it now. There was a huge flurry of clubs doing it in the 90s, then the City fell out of love with football clubs and share prices crashed. Guess what? It was the directors of the listed companies that made all the money, and fans who lost out. Most clubs have now left the stockmarket.

Also, anybody could mount a bid. We would open ourselves up to the sharks out there. Those who would think nothing about turning the ground into a cinema / appartment mega complex thingy. You can''t stop it, you open up to hostile take overs. Gamble on a Championship club making the Premiership, never mind if they don''t make it they have great assets to sell.

Publicly traded companies have to make a profit, else share prices fall. Arsenal profit on transfers, something nobody likes to see at Norwich. They are in a position to run a huge academy and can afford the cream of the talent, something we could never ever compete with. Do you want to see us selling players just because it is the end of the financial year and we have to show profit? Newcastles share price fell when they *bought* Michael Owen, city investors thought he wasn''t worth so much - do you want the future of the club decided by people gambling on the stock market?

I know you want Delia out and Cullum / Other Investor in, but this is not the way. It would ruin the club.
[/quote]

The main point about trading shares publically is that it makes control easier to pass from one person to another, it doesn''t influence how that person exercises that control. There is absolutely no reason why Delia, or come to that Cullum or A.N. Other, could not turn Carrow Road into a block of flats regardless of how they gained control of the majority of the shares. What it takes is for the owner to act in the best interests of NCFC rather than in their own interests, and listing on Ofex neither increases nor decreases the likelihood of that happening.There is no guarantee that the majority shareholders of an unlisted company will not see the future in fixed assets rather than football. After all, isn''t this what many people said about Chase, are saying about Smith, and are now beginning to point the finger at Evans down the road? Being unlisted is no protection against those without the best interests of the club at heart.

I agree with you that listing is not going to happen, but not as you say because ''she is going to have less control over her money'' - in fact she will have more control over her money because she can move it in or out of the club more easily - but because ''she is going to have less control over the club'' - the distinction is important because it is the root cause of why many posters feel she will never let go of NCFC.

I kinda like the Arsenal model. They know the key to success is to have the best manager and then support him with the neccessary funds. Because they are in the top four, they attract money. Their new stadium was financed by Emirates money because they are successful, not the other way round. Would you rather be trading Tierry Henry for 16m to finance the new crop of talented European youngsters who actually want to play for the Gunners because they are one of the most successful clubs in the world(and therefore attract the best talent), or would you rather be flogging Lewis to Peterborough to pay the electricity bill?

 

[/quote]

Remember that Arsenal have a securitised loan, like us, but they pay £24M a per for the next 17 years before it''s cleared!

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[quote user="Fat Strawberry"]

[quote user="can u sit down please"]I have a feeling that money has been invested but we are not publicising it while rebuilding our squad. Makes sense to me! It would also link back to the Delia quote for the RNS "we are not like other clubs who talk about how much money they have!" Watch this space......[/quote]

I''ve only just noticed something. 

Delia in her comments is so often divisive.  Why say "not like other clubs"?  It''s superfluous.  Just say "we don''t talk about how much money we have".  "We''re better than them nana nanana".

And similarly "The best fans in the world".  It''s a meaningless phrase and isn''t "fantastic fans" or "marvellous fans" enough?  The "best" fans is not saying much if the rest are rubbish!

I''ve never known a club to be so deeply divided.  There has always been healthy disagreement but this isn''t healthy and it''s become embedded in our mentality now.  And I think I can see where it''s coming from. 

A lot of the pro-board arguments on here justify our club''s mismanagement on the grounds that "we''re not like club X".  That makes it all right then does it?

 [/quote]

You must be having a laugh. Delia was having a dig at Ipswich (something Bellamy is a hero for). Are you so desperate to criticise her you will pick her up on that?

I''m not pro-board. I''m pro Norwich City. But you have to put all the board''s mistakes into context, and you have to recognise what they have done well. How else can we learn? Many posters on here think our club is alone in the issues we face. How can you understand the board''s prudence unless you understand what they are worried about? Unless you know what happend at other clubs? Unless you can fully gauge the risks?

When you don''t, you end up seeing some of the rubbish that we have seen posted about our board and club recently. They are liars. They are power hungry ego maniacs. They have pocketed the club''s money. They don''t want to get promoted. They are only in it for the profit. They don''t care about the fans. You can blame them for hiring Grant but cant give them credit for hiring Roeder. Delia uses NCFC to prop up her fading career. They have no ambition. No other club has a hotel. No other club focusses so much on restaurants.

Every single fan making such statements has a lack of understanding about the current state of the game, about what is happening at other clubs. I haven''t seen one person justify any of it.

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[quote user="Fat Strawberry"]

[quote user="can u sit down please"]I have a feeling that money has been invested but we are not publicising it while rebuilding our squad. Makes sense to me! It would also link back to the Delia quote for the RNS "we are not like other clubs who talk about how much money they have!" Watch this space......[/quote]

I''ve only just noticed something. 

Delia in her comments is so often divisive.  Why say "not like other clubs"?  It''s superfluous.  Just say "we don''t talk about how much money we have".  "We''re better than them nana nanana".

And similarly "The best fans in the world".  It''s a meaningless phrase and isn''t "fantastic fans" or "marvellous fans" enough?  The "best" fans is not saying much if the rest are rubbish!

I''ve never known a club to be so deeply divided.  There has always been healthy disagreement but this isn''t healthy and it''s become embedded in our mentality now.  And I think I can see where it''s coming from. 

A lot of the pro-board arguments on here justify our club''s mismanagement on the grounds that "we''re not like club X".  That makes it all right then does it?

 

[/quote]

The ranters have no evidence of mismanagement, that''s the real problem.  We are not one of the 20 biggest or richest clubs in the country so not being in the Prem is not evidence of mismanagement (though some seem to claim it is)

We are not bankrupt or insolvent so that isn''t evidence of mismanagement.

The overwhelming majority of the protesters ore of the spoilt child variety.  "I want my club to spend millions and millions of pounds (i.e. other people''s money) on players every year and be an established glamourous Prem team so the media will fawn over us and someone must be to blame because I''m (somehow) entitled to it and I''m going to scream and scream until I''m sick if I don''t get it". 

All clubs and all fans want that, even the pro-Board ones.  But life isn''t that simple.  It isn''t in our or the Board''s control.  All you can do is your best and hope the footballing decisions (the manager you appoint and the players you buy) work out, which no-one can guarantee.  And that you get a bit of luck (refs decisions, injuries and all the rest of those crucial little factors that are a central part of something as unpredictable as football).  Our playing budget last year wasn''t any bigger than Hull''s, for example, and probably less than Bristol City''s.  Conversely when we won the title in 2003/4 we were the overachievers since plenty of teams who spent more money finished in our wake.

I haven''t seen any reasonable posts yet from the moaners suggesting what realistically could be done differently for clear benefit.

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Mr Carra wrote: The overwhelming majority of the protesters ore of the spoilt child variety.  "I want my club to spend millions and millions of pounds (i.e. other people''s money) on players every year and be an established glamourous Prem team so the media will fawn over us and someone must be to blame because I''m (somehow) entitled to it and I''m going to scream and scream until I''m sick if I don''t get it". 

Exactly correct Mr. Carra. They also want to scream and scream in the hope they can make more than enough others sick. The small minority on this message board have been screaming the same message for long enough now that they are probably incapable of a) realising their own sickness and b) comprehending that they are having no impact on the overall situation at all and, more importantly, never will.

In the old days the spoilt child, after failing to accept rationale explanation, would get a good whack on their bum and be sent to their room until they gradually learn how to behave. Unfortunately, some of these "older children" on this forum apparently did not benefit from such discipline.

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[quote user="face"]

Oh goody goody another debate where people (Despite using the quote button) fail to read what the other poster actually writes but skim over it and assume they say something.

The good issues raised by yellow hammer and others are about the method of control, not claiming that anyone isn''t a fan, or that they are turning a football pitch into flats.

The truth of the matter is that a lot of people like power and the ability to control firstly their own destiny and then the destiny of what/whom they love.

Majority shareholders in large corporate entities may not fall into this but smaller concerns, whether they are family businesses or just businesses where the directors have invested a large chunk of their life will fit into it.  One of these is Norwich City plc.

Delia actually has split loyalties between City and the Delia brand, MWJ probably has as well, but to some extent he has tried to back off the Delia brand and obviously misses some of the buzz he got from a fully functioning Crane (his media business).  So their lives are dominated by City and running it.

They are not "football people" so they naturally moved into the business side (catering and publishing in particular) and because City had no expertise there they were able to stamp their mark.

It has become very much made in their image.

So we have to accept that they would find it difficult to let go of that "power" (quotes as it is overstated really).  They will one day as they have not found immortality and in all honesty despite all our concerns over them trying to extract money, can anyone say that they will not make a gesture like Geoffery Watling has done in the past?

So yes in a way I am a Delia fan, but I also would beg them to take on a wider spread of expertise, and consider how investment can be brought into the Club.

A Chief Executive appointed by a new major investor would be the ideal.

 

[/quote]

I agree with a lot of this post face but the valid points you make about Delia and MWJ are really no different to the majority of club owners. Even the big wealthy scarey (some say to be avoided at all costs) foreign investors have no more credibility for running a football club than Smith and Jones. People like Abramovch, Al Fayed, Glazer, Lerner, Gillette and even Mandaric are not "football people" or certainly not "our football people". But, like our board they put a team in place  to run the various parts of the club. The most important of these is the football manager. If this appointment is wrong the club fails regardless of the other parts. Appointing a football manager is not an exact science and nearly every club gets it wrong more often than right.  I guess the difference is the wealthy owners can afford to continually tear it up and start over again when they make mistakes where as the mistakes at our club take longer to turn around.

Consider Mandarics record in English football. When he took over at Portsmouth they flirted with relegation from this league for 3 seasons under various managers finishing 18th, 20th and 17th as he continually tried to get the right football manager in. Finally he got Redknapp and it all came right. Redknapp took them to the Premiership and they exceeded all expectations until the pair fell out. Then he tried different managers again and nothing worked until he kissed and made up with ''arry. Moving to Leicester he was no instant success and he continually changed managers in an attempt to get it right. Despite his time in football he doesn''t have a clue how to get another ''arry and Leicester find themselves in League One.

I''m hoping Roeder turns out to be our boards ''arry. They can''t afford to "tear it up again" this season and even if they could it didn''t save Leicester. I believe Roeders appointment was the most important in my time. If they have got it wrong I think we will be relegated just like Leicester.

 

 

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[quote user="Big Down Under"][quote user="Fat Strawberry"]

[quote user="can u sit down please"]I have a feeling that money has been invested but we are not publicising it while rebuilding our squad. Makes sense to me! It would also link back to the Delia quote for the RNS "we are not like other clubs who talk about how much money they have!" Watch this space......[/quote]

I''ve only just noticed something. 

Delia in her comments is so often divisive.  Why say "not like other clubs"?  It''s superfluous.  Just say "we don''t talk about how much money we have".  "We''re better than them nana nanana".

And similarly "The best fans in the world".  It''s a meaningless phrase and isn''t "fantastic fans" or "marvellous fans" enough?  The "best" fans is not saying much if the rest are rubbish!

I''ve never known a club to be so deeply divided.  There has always been healthy disagreement but this isn''t healthy and it''s become embedded in our mentality now.  And I think I can see where it''s coming from. 

A lot of the pro-board arguments on here justify our club''s mismanagement on the grounds that "we''re not like club X".  That makes it all right then does it?

 [/quote]

You must be having a laugh. Delia was having a dig at Ipswich (something Bellamy is a hero for). Are you so desperate to criticise her you will pick her up on that?

I''m not pro-board. I''m pro Norwich City. But you have to put all the board''s mistakes into context, and you have to recognise what they have done well. How else can we learn? Many posters on here think our club is alone in the issues we face. How can you understand the board''s prudence unless you understand what they are worried about? Unless you know what happend at other clubs? Unless you can fully gauge the risks?

When you don''t, you end up seeing some of the rubbish that we have seen posted about our board and club recently. They are liars. They are power hungry ego maniacs. They have pocketed the club''s money. They don''t want to get promoted. They are only in it for the profit. They don''t care about the fans. You can blame them for hiring Grant but cant give them credit for hiring Roeder. Delia uses NCFC to prop up her fading career. They have no ambition. No other club has a hotel. No other club focusses so much on restaurants.

Every single fan making such statements has a lack of understanding about the current state of the game, about what is happening at other clubs. I haven''t seen one person justify any of it.

[/quote]

Grow up mate. I''m guessing you are 14 years old at most coming out with bilge like that......

No wonder this club is spiralling southwards at a pace.

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[quote]

Grow up mate. I''m guessing you are 14 years old at most coming out with bilge like that......

No wonder this club is spiralling southwards at a pace.[/quote]

You''re not a patch on the original cluck.

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[quote user="mr carra"][quote user="yellow hammer"]

The main point about trading shares publically is that it makes control easier to pass from one person to another, it doesn''t influence how that person exercises that control. There is absolutely no reason why Delia, or come to that Cullum or A.N. Other, could not turn Carrow Road into a block of flats regardless of how they gained control of the majority of the shares. What it takes is for the owner to act in the best interests of NCFC rather than in their own interests, and listing on Ofex neither increases nor decreases the likelihood of that happening.There is no guarantee that the majority shareholders of an unlisted company will not see the future in fixed assets rather than football. After all, isn''t this what many people said about Chase, are saying about Smith, and are now beginning to point the finger at Evans down the road? Being unlisted is no protection against those without the best interests of the club at heart.

I agree with you that listing is not going to happen, but not as you say because ''she is going to have less control over her money'' - in fact she will have more control over her money because she can move it in or out of the club more easily - but because ''she is going to have less control over the club'' - the distinction is important because it is the root cause of why many posters feel she will never let go of NCFC.

I kinda like the Arsenal model. They know the key to success is to have the best manager and then support him with the neccessary funds. Because they are in the top four, they attract money. Their new stadium was financed by Emirates money because they are successful, not the other way round. Would you rather be trading Tierry Henry for 16m to finance the new crop of talented European youngsters who actually want to play for the Gunners because they are one of the most successful clubs in the world(and therefore attract the best talent), or would you rather be flogging Lewis to Peterborough to pay the electricity bill?

[/quote]

Hard to know where to begin with this since it is so ridiculous.  Obviously there is no reason Delia could not turn Carrow Road into a block of flats except for the fact that she is a fan and therefore never wouldThe protection that not being listed provides is that provided the club retains financial stability Delia can choose to sell when and to whom she pleases and as a fan would clearly have to satisfy herself that such a person also had the best interests of the club at heart - with a listing that control over the club''s future ownership vanishes.  You raise the issue of Evans dubious intentions and Ipswich not being listed as a demonstration that beung unlisted is no protection, but the reason Ipswich''s board had to sell to Evans was because their financial situation was so bad they were no longer in a position to say no to any offer.  They got in that situation by spending over their means (precisely what some people seem to believe this Board should do every year)

For all the arguments about Delia I cannot believe a single person really believes she does not have the best interests of the club at heart (different people obviously have different ideas about how to achieve that goal but let''s not doubt the we do all share a goal). 

Football is an ongoing concern (over 100 years for NCFC and counting) and the long-term future fortunes of this club are governed by far more than how much we spend on players in the next 6 months as some seem to believe

[/quote]

You miss the point completely. If NCFC were listed, Delia could still maintain ownership of her shares for as long as she wished to hold onto them. Being listed does not force her to sell the shares at all, and she can still sell her shares to whomsoever she wishes.. What listing does do is allow minority shareholders to receive the market valuation for her shares. Now isn''t that exactly what all the pro-Delia have been saying - that Delia shouldn''t walk away from the club without getting hr money back? Well here is a way that allows all shareholders - and not just the majority shareholders to release the market value in their shareholding.

And does Delia have the best interest of the club at heart? I would say that was secondary to her own personal interests. Or would you suggest the order is reversed?

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The problem is that one season in the Premier League made a lot of people think we were awash with cash and would never look back. Something has happened over the last few years that seems to make many think that it''s just so easy with money, and that where there''s money, there''s more money and success. It''s just not like that.

What people forget is that it isn''t much fun watching your team spending millions and millions and only coming 14th in the Prem every year; hence the falling attendances across the middle/lower echelons of that league. West Ham spent a fortune last year and had one of the dullest seasons in their history. What''s it done for them? They hate the manager - who was a hero not twelve months ago - they boo their own players and spend all their time banging on about the players they sold in the past. (sounds familiar, actually..)

Now I''m not saying we''re better off in this league, because we''re not, but this kind of crazed idea that one season in the Premier League was the answer to all our problems is wrong. The board have made mistakes but it seems to me that - at last - we have an experienced manager to guide them. Remember that none of our previous managers up till Hamilton had ANY managerial experience, and it showed when it really mattered.

Things have changed, for the better, and we need to give it time.

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[quote user="blahblahblah"][quote]

Grow up mate. I''m guessing you are 14 years old at most coming out with bilge like that......

No wonder this club is spiralling southwards at a pace.[/quote]

You''re not a patch on the original cluck.

[/quote]

I''m thoroughly enjoying Cluckcaster''s lessons on growing up. And then hurling insults. Then telling poeple to grow up. Then hurling insults.. 

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[quote user="yellow hammer"][quote user="mr carra"]Hard to know where to begin with this since it is so ridiculous.  Obviously there is no reason Delia could not turn Carrow Road into a block of flats except for the fact that she is a fan and therefore never wouldThe protection that not being listed provides is that provided the club retains financial stability Delia can choose to sell when and to whom she pleases and as a fan would clearly have to satisfy herself that such a person also had the best interests of the club at heart - with a listing that control over the club''s future ownership vanishes.  You raise the issue of Evans dubious intentions and Ipswich not being listed as a demonstration that beung unlisted is no protection, but the reason Ipswich''s board had to sell to Evans was because their financial situation was so bad they were no longer in a position to say no to any offer.  They got in that situation by spending over their means (precisely what some people seem to believe this Board should do every year)

For all the arguments about Delia I cannot believe a single person really believes she does not have the best interests of the club at heart (different people obviously have different ideas about how to achieve that goal but let''s not doubt the we do all share a goal). 

Football is an ongoing concern (over 100 years for NCFC and counting) and the long-term future fortunes of this club are governed by far more than how much we spend on players in the next 6 months as some seem to believe

[/quote]

You miss the point completely. If NCFC were listed, Delia could still maintain ownership of her shares for as long as she wished to hold onto them. Being listed does not force her to sell the shares at all, and she can still sell her shares to whomsoever she wishes.. What listing does do is allow minority shareholders to receive the market valuation for her shares. Now isn''t that exactly what all the pro-Delia have been saying - that Delia shouldn''t walk away from the club without getting hr money back? Well here is a way that allows all shareholders - and not just the majority shareholders to release the market value in their shareholding.

And does Delia have the best interest of the club at heart? I would say that was secondary to her own personal interests. Or would you suggest the order is reversed?

[/quote]

Surely her own best interests would have been seved by never putting a penny into NCFC???  Your comment has no basis in any evidence whatsoever.

 

The problem with listing (which is an expensive business) is that who is going to buy shares in a  company that makes no money?  Football clubs are delisting, rather than listing, partly for that reason.  Would you really like us, as a club, to put paying dividneds to shareholders before funds for players?  The only ''value'' for investors in a football club like ours is control.  A minority share is pretty worthless.

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This ''what Delia is thinking'' stuff is old ground and will never be resolved. Some people seem to have a crystal ball that stares right into her heart, mind and soul that tells them she is some kind of witch who drains the blood of youth players in the boardroom while laughing, LAUGHING, LAUGHING at us idiot bumpkins as she plots to send us spiralling into the Conference.

 

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[quote user="nutty nigel"][quote user="face"]

Oh goody goody another debate where people (Despite using the quote button) fail to read what the other poster actually writes but skim over it and assume they say something.

The good issues raised by yellow hammer and others are about the method of control, not claiming that anyone isn''t a fan, or that they are turning a football pitch into flats.

The truth of the matter is that a lot of people like power and the ability to control firstly their own destiny and then the destiny of what/whom they love.

Majority shareholders in large corporate entities may not fall into this but smaller concerns, whether they are family businesses or just businesses where the directors have invested a large chunk of their life will fit into it.  One of these is Norwich City plc.

Delia actually has split loyalties between City and the Delia brand, MWJ probably has as well, but to some extent he has tried to back off the Delia brand and obviously misses some of the buzz he got from a fully functioning Crane (his media business).  So their lives are dominated by City and running it.

They are not "football people" so they naturally moved into the business side (catering and publishing in particular) and because City had no expertise there they were able to stamp their mark.

It has become very much made in their image.

So we have to accept that they would find it difficult to let go of that "power" (quotes as it is overstated really).  They will one day as they have not found immortality and in all honesty despite all our concerns over them trying to extract money, can anyone say that they will not make a gesture like Geoffery Watling has done in the past?

So yes in a way I am a Delia fan, but I also would beg them to take on a wider spread of expertise, and consider how investment can be brought into the Club.

A Chief Executive appointed by a new major investor would be the ideal.

 

[/quote]

I agree with a lot of this post face but the valid points you make about Delia and MWJ are really no different to the majority of club owners. Even the big wealthy scarey (some say to be avoided at all costs) foreign investors have no more credibility for running a football club than Smith and Jones. People like Abramovch, Al Fayed, Glazer, Lerner, Gillette and even Mandaric are not "football people" or certainly not "our football people". But, like our board they put a team in place  to run the various parts of the club. The most important of these is the football manager. If this appointment is wrong the club fails regardless of the other parts. Appointing a football manager is not an exact science and nearly every club gets it wrong more often than right.  I guess the difference is the wealthy owners can afford to continually tear it up and start over again when they make mistakes where as the mistakes at our club take longer to turn around.

Consider Mandarics record in English football. When he took over at Portsmouth they flirted with relegation from this league for 3 seasons under various managers finishing 18th, 20th and 17th as he continually tried to get the right football manager in. Finally he got Redknapp and it all came right. Redknapp took them to the Premiership and they exceeded all expectations until the pair fell out. Then he tried different managers again and nothing worked until he kissed and made up with ''arry. Moving to Leicester he was no instant success and he continually changed managers in an attempt to get it right. Despite his time in football he doesn''t have a clue how to get another ''arry and Leicester find themselves in League One.

I''m hoping Roeder turns out to be our boards ''arry. They can''t afford to "tear it up again" this season and even if they could it didn''t save Leicester. I believe Roeders appointment was the most important in my time. If they have got it wrong I think we will be relegated just like Leicester.

 

 

[/quote]

Nutty, I think you make a very good analysis of the situation. I''m sure a lot of people out there are terrified of the thought of some outsider coming in to take control of the club, as though the new owner might dig up the pitch and carry it off to Siberia or somewhere.

It is more about the manager, as you quite rightly point out. But when you have the right manager in place, and I believe we have the right manager for where we are now, then you have to back him with money if you want to progress.

Giving money to a poor manager is a waste, because he won''t be able to do anything with the players, but when you do hit lucky (and law of averages says once in a while you will), then you have to improve the squad and give him better quality players to work with. If you don''t then you set a ceiling on ambition and eventually the gaffer will be off. Unfortunately, this season''s funding looks to be following the pattern of the past few seasons. If we don''t back a manager who seems to be the real mccoy, then we simply never will.

 

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Shareholders can still sell their shares, via the Club''s stockbroker, on a match "sellers to buyers" basis, should they so wish. Not the same as a listed Company, but still an option.

However, whilst the Company still has Unallocated Shares for sale, purchasers are more likely to approach the Club direct and pay £30 a share, which has the advantage of new share captial being injected into the Club.

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I''m sure a lot of people out there are terrified of the thought of some

outsider coming in to take control of the club, as though the new owner

might dig up the pitch and carry it off to Siberia or somewhere.
Its easy to make fun YH, but it has happened several times. Sam Hamman sold the Wimbledon ground to Tescos, now the club doesn''t even exist. Similar stuff happened at York and Cambridge, and others.I know I keep banging on about this, but in general why do people invest in football clubs? Either because they love the club, or to make a profit. You only get decent profit in the premiership, so if the club doesn''t get up (and stay up), sell the assets. Whether you like it or not, whether you know about it or not, bad things happen to football clubs.You say our board should back the manager. Well, he has totally re-modelled the squad, and presuming you aren''t stupid enough to only look at transfer fees quoted and ignore the undisclosed fees, wages, agents fees, bonuses, you must agree he needed money to do this. On top of this we  bought in a whole new backroom staff as Roeder wanted. This all cost money, and plenty of it. Can you really say thats not backing him?

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[quote user="Match Day Pie"][quote user="blahblahblah"][quote]

Grow up mate. I''m guessing you are 14 years old at most coming out with bilge like that......

No wonder this club is spiralling southwards at a pace.[/quote]

You''re not a patch on the original cluck.

[/quote]

I''m thoroughly enjoying Cluckcaster''s lessons on growing up. And then hurling insults. Then telling poeple to grow up. Then hurling insults.. 

[/quote]

I''m glad someone on here is listening to my good sense and reason. It''s a tough job...but someone has got to do it.

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[quote user="Neil Cluckcaster"][quote user="Match Day Pie"][quote user="blahblahblah"][quote]

Grow up mate. I''m guessing you are 14 years old at most coming out with bilge like that......

No wonder this club is spiralling southwards at a pace.[/quote]

You''re not a patch on the original cluck.

[/quote]

I''m thoroughly enjoying Cluckcaster''s lessons on growing up. And then hurling insults. Then telling poeple to grow up. Then hurling insults.. 

[/quote]

I''m glad someone on here is listening to my good sense and reason. It''s a tough job...but someone has got to do it.

[/quote]

From what I''ve read of your input you don''t seem to make a lot of sense but possibly you come across better if one listens to you. How do I do that, do I click on your beak? I''ve stamped on it a few times in the past and didn''t get one intelligent response.

 

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[quote user="Big Down Under"]Mello sorry to say it but you write an awful load of emotional tosh. Fair enough, emotion is high as we love our club, but try and cut through it to look at what is actually going on.

You say they aren''t looking for outside investment - based on what? Where is your evidence?
You say they don''t want to get us promoted - based on what? Where is your evidence?
You talk about their loss of prestige being their major reason for not wanting to lose control - based on what? Where is your evidence?

If we are to blame them for the state of the club last November, which we must as it is their responsibility, we must also give them credit for what has happened before and since;
- Hiring a well respected Premiership manager
- Overseeing the clearout of the backroom staff
- Enabling Roeder to get the players he wants (his words, not mine)

We must also give them credit for their past achievements;
- The Worthy years of rebuild, competitiveness, winning the league and promotion
- The financial stability of the club, despite the mess it was in.
- The fact that they have achieved this stability without selling our major fixed assets (good, sound business acumen)

Why can''t you give them credit for the above? Because you don''t understand just what an achievement it all is. You seem to have very little idea of the financial environment they are working in. Over 50% of league clubs have gone into administration, but our board have avoided it. Many clubs on Premiership relegation have slipped to League 1, or lower, but our board have avoided it. Most clubs on relegation have to cut their wage bill and sell players, but you attack our board for doing it. Many clubs on relegation under perform, but you single out NCFC as the only club to have these problems.

Leicester was held up on here last summer as a club we should emulate. Get in an ambitious chairman! Spend more money! Thats the way to do it! Oh.
Southampton were held up on here last summer as a club we should emulate. They have an ambitious chairman! Spend more money! You can always sell the player ''assets'' to get your money back! Oh.

Have a look around Mello, Its not anywhere near as cut and dried as you think.
[/quote]

If you weren''t such a patronising, condescending, egotistical, arrogant and smug git.....I''d think you were a patronising, condescending, egotistical, arrogant and smug git.....

Model yourself on the Chief Exec, perchance?

Do you assume I also think that the world is flat? And, that if I ventured out of Norfolk - I''d fall off the edge into space? OOH ERR!

I don''t care for what you say concerning our board, I stated my opinion and perception on the role of our current board, and my personal opinion and belief, is that they''re not the group of people to take this club forward. Don''t lecture me chum, on the ways and wants or what I should be taking on board by listening to you, the self appointed wise old sage from Botany Bay. Your positives are the usual dirge spouted and spewed forth, and not dissimilar to what discharges with regularity from Butt-Kiss Boardists (and the Chief Exec) who defend the Directionless - whenever supposed unfair criticism is directed at them.

Where is your concrete ''evidence'' to back up your claims then? Which hold as much credence as my opinions that ''they'' aren''t actively pursuing outside investment, and that I think that they''re content and happy to trundle along until signs of tension or revolt start to stir, then they throw a few coins to the peasants to placate them.  It''s all about opinion on this forum, I stated my opinions, and remain unconvinced after ''monitoring'' the role and performance of those in the hierarchy who''ve ruled the roost for over the last decade.

Everything other than the fixed assets has been done on the cheapy thrifty......

Why not mention Gretna?........You forgot that one. You cheeky fuggin'' bratwurst.

 

    

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[quote user="Mello Yello"]

[quote user="Big Down Under"]Mello sorry to say it but you write an awful load of emotional tosh. Fair enough, emotion is high as we love our club, but try and cut through it to look at what is actually going on.You say they aren''t looking for outside investment - based on what? Where is your evidence?You say they don''t want to get us promoted - based on what? Where is your evidence?You talk about their loss of prestige being their major reason for not wanting to lose control - based on what? Where is your evidence?If we are to blame them for the state of the club last November, which we must as it is their responsibility, we must also give them credit for what has happened before and since;- Hiring a well respected Premiership manager- Overseeing the clearout of the backroom staff- Enabling Roeder to get the players he wants (his words, not mine)We must also give them credit for their past achievements;- The Worthy years of rebuild, competitiveness, winning the league and promotion- The financial stability of the club, despite the mess it was in. - The fact that they have achieved this stability without selling our major fixed assets (good, sound business acumen)Why can''t you give them credit for the above? Because you don''t understand just what an achievement it all is. You seem to have very little idea of the financial environment they are working in. Over 50% of league clubs have gone into administration, but our board have avoided it. Many clubs on Premiership relegation have slipped to League 1, or lower, but our board have avoided it. Most clubs on relegation have to cut their wage bill and sell players, but you attack our board for doing it. Many clubs on relegation under perform, but you single out NCFC as the only club to have these problems.Leicester was held up on here last summer as a club we should emulate. Get in an ambitious chairman! Spend more money! Thats the way to do it! Oh.Southampton were held up on here last summer as a club we should emulate. They have an ambitious chairman! Spend more money! You can always sell the player ''assets'' to get your money back! Oh.Have a look around Mello, Its not anywhere near as cut and dried as you think.[/quote]

If you weren''t such a patronising, condescending, egotistical, arrogant and smug git.....I''d think you were a patronising, condescending, egotistical, arrogant and smug git.....

Model yourself on the Chief Exec, perchance?

Do you assume I also think that the world is flat? And, that if I ventured out of Norfolk - I''d fall off the edge into space? OOH ERR!

I don''t care for what you say concerning our board, I stated my opinion and perception on the role of our current board, and my personal opinion and belief, is that they''re not the group of people to take this club forward. Don''t lecture me chum, on the ways and wants or what I should be taking on board by listening to you, the self appointed wise old sage from Botany Bay. Your positives are the usual dirge spouted and spewed forth, and not dissimilar to what discharges with regularity from Butt-Kiss Boardists (and the Chief Exec) who defend the Directionless - whenever supposed unfair criticism is directed at them.

Where is your concrete ''evidence'' to back up your claims then? Which hold as much credence as my opinions that ''they'' aren''t actively pursuing outside investment, and that I think that they''re content and happy to trundle along until signs of tension or revolt start to stir, then they throw a few coins to the peasants to placate them.  It''s all about opinion on this forum, I stated my opinions, and remain unconvinced after ''monitoring'' the role and performance of those in the hierarchy who''ve ruled the roost for over the last decade.

Everything other than the fixed assets has been done on the cheapy thrifty......

Why not mention Gretna?........You forgot that one. You cheeky fuggin'' bratwurst.

[/quote]

Pretty much what I was expecting in your response Mello, a personal attack and a load of over emotional guff. You are perfectly entitled to your opinions, but if you want to publish them you must expect them to be challenged. Shame you can''t actually back up a word of what you say. So much for the debate, hey?

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[quote user="Big Down Under"][quote user="Mello Yello"]

[quote user="Big Down Under"]Mello sorry to say it but you write an awful load of emotional tosh. Fair enough, emotion is high as we love our club, but try and cut through it to look at what is actually going on.

You say they aren''t looking for outside investment - based on what? Where is your evidence?
You say they don''t want to get us promoted - based on what? Where is your evidence?
You talk about their loss of prestige being their major reason for not wanting to lose control - based on what? Where is your evidence?

If we are to blame them for the state of the club last November, which we must as it is their responsibility, we must also give them credit for what has happened before and since;
- Hiring a well respected Premiership manager
- Overseeing the clearout of the backroom staff
- Enabling Roeder to get the players he wants (his words, not mine)

We must also give them credit for their past achievements;
- The Worthy years of rebuild, competitiveness, winning the league and promotion
- The financial stability of the club, despite the mess it was in.
- The fact that they have achieved this stability without selling our major fixed assets (good, sound business acumen)

Why can''t you give them credit for the above? Because you don''t understand just what an achievement it all is. You seem to have very little idea of the financial environment they are working in. Over 50% of league clubs have gone into administration, but our board have avoided it. Many clubs on Premiership relegation have slipped to League 1, or lower, but our board have avoided it. Most clubs on relegation have to cut their wage bill and sell players, but you attack our board for doing it. Many clubs on relegation under perform, but you single out NCFC as the only club to have these problems.

Leicester was held up on here last summer as a club we should emulate. Get in an ambitious chairman! Spend more money! Thats the way to do it! Oh.
Southampton were held up on here last summer as a club we should emulate. They have an ambitious chairman! Spend more money! You can always sell the player ''assets'' to get your money back! Oh.

Have a look around Mello, Its not anywhere near as cut and dried as you think.
[/quote]

If you weren''t such a patronising, condescending, egotistical, arrogant and smug git.....I''d think you were a patronising, condescending, egotistical, arrogant and smug git.....

Model yourself on the Chief Exec, perchance?

Do you assume I also think that the world is flat? And, that if I ventured out of Norfolk - I''d fall off the edge into space? OOH ERR!

I don''t care for what you say concerning our board, I stated my opinion and perception on the role of our current board, and my personal opinion and belief, is that they''re not the group of people to take this club forward. Don''t lecture me chum, on the ways and wants or what I should be taking on board by listening to you, the self appointed wise old sage from Botany Bay. Your positives are the usual dirge spouted and spewed forth, and not dissimilar to what discharges with regularity from Butt-Kiss Boardists (and the Chief Exec) who defend the Directionless - whenever supposed unfair criticism is directed at them.

Where is your concrete ''evidence'' to back up your claims then? Which hold as much credence as my opinions that ''they'' aren''t actively pursuing outside investment, and that I think that they''re content and happy to trundle along until signs of tension or revolt start to stir, then they throw a few coins to the peasants to placate them.  It''s all about opinion on this forum, I stated my opinions, and remain unconvinced after ''monitoring'' the role and performance of those in the hierarchy who''ve ruled the roost for over the last decade.

Everything other than the fixed assets has been done on the cheapy thrifty......

Why not mention Gretna?........You forgot that one. You cheeky fuggin'' bratwurst.

[/quote]

Pretty much what I was expecting in your response Mello, a personal attack and a load of over emotional guff. You are perfectly entitled to your opinions, but if you want to publish them you must expect them to be challenged. Shame you can''t actually back up a word of what you say. So much for the debate, hey?

[/quote]

oh and you can Big In The Balls Department???

Don''t make me laugh!!! [:O]

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Aaarrgghh!  Is someone trying to win a competition for "longest running thread"? 

It''s turning into the Undead, the Thing from the Black Lagoon.  Needs a stake through its heart pdq imo.

 

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