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Match Day Pie

PROTEST AGAINST DELIA AND THE BOARD

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"We''ve had thousands of posts on the subject and without raking over old ground too much, can we agree that the main problem lies with the board? Short term problems can be placed at players, at coaching staff or at the manager, but over a longer period of time, when players, coaching staff and managers have all come and gone and the problems still exist, then would you agree with me that we have to start looking at the board as the main root cause of our present troubles? Given that many of the issues relate to the balance of investment between fixed assets and the playing squad, this has to be evidence that we should be looking at the board. And finally, the absolute level of investment is determined more by the private wealth of the board members than by the fan''s contribution via season tickets, merchandising etc."

 

I don''t think we can agree on that at all.  There is no evidence that the club has spent too much on fixed assets.  The club is a long-term ongoing entity that has existed for over 100 years and we all hope will continue to do so.  That means the long-term infrastructure has to be maintained.

I would have more fun next week if I spent money on a holiday rather than redecorating my house, but if I do that all the time eventually my house will become dilapidated.  Similarly, while we might enjoy the next season more if we spend all our money on players if, as remains the most likely outcome, we still don''t get promoted then that money will have gone down the drain and the club will never see it again (remember Southampton taking Safri off us last year because, unlike us, they were prepared to offer him £10k per week - look where that got them!).  Fixed assets, however, continue to generate income for the club to spend on players year after year.

It is by maintaining the infrastructure that the board have ensured that this is a financially fairly stable club in what is a fantastically difficult economic environment for Championship football clubs (that, incidentally is where the real blame lies).

Yes, a much richer owner will be required to enable this club to ever establish itself in the Premiership (where pretty much all the clubs lose money even with their vast TV income).  But any such owner will reap the benefits of the quality infrastructure that the current owners have given us and should reimburse them appropriately on taking over. 

If Cullum had offered £20m for a seat on the Board I''m sure it would have been accepted, but he wanted control.  People may say it is natural that he wants to retain control of his money which is, of course, fair enough.  But he was not offering to buy out Delia''s shares which means the money she has invested in the club over the years would still be tied up in it.  Since I''m betting the money she has invested is a larger share of her wealth than £20m is of Cullum''s then surely she is also at least as justified in wanting to retain control.

You can''t easily have two people in control (it is a recipe for disaster) so the only real solution is for Cullum to buy out Delia''s shares.  So far he has apparently not offered to do so, but hopefully down the line when he has generated more liquid funds from his investments he will be in a position to do it.

 

 

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[quote user="yellow hammer"][quote user="Big Down Under"][quote user="Mr.Carrow"]

MDP and BDU, no-one other than maybe a few text-speak idiots has ever posted anything like that about Delia.  By the same token i could post that both of you are bewitched by a fading celebrity who you view as a saint who can do no wrong, but it`s a bit silly really isn`t it?

There is plenty of evidence backing up MDU`s statement regarding Delias over-sensitivity, from her "I saved the club" outbursts at any criticism, to my friend who asked difficult questions at the AGM being invited to meet her to "explain what your problem is with me".  She seems to view criticism of the club as criticism of herself and i think that in some peoples minds the two things have ceased to be seperate entities.

Now, as we are all NCFC supporters why don`t we start putting as much thought and effort into what is best for the CLUB as a whole, rather than one individual who happens to be running it at the moment?

[/quote]
Thats not actually true is it? You yourself bang on about how she has lied to us (despite the fact that you need to read ''abridged'' versions of her quotes to back up the view). Cluck and others regularly state their views about her being a third rate celebrity, how she ''likes a drink'', how she is only in it for a profit or to help her sell books.

Also I have critised her plenty, but its funny how this gets overlooked.  Her hiring of Grant, the state of the Academy,  the whole seeming mindset about the club, all signs that things haven''t been all rosy and all things I have mentioned on various threads. I am also uneasy about some of the off field investments, but can''t criticise too hard on this as I don''t understand the full plans or potential of these investments. Those who bang on about hotels and restaurants just don''t understand that we NEED these activities, to help fund the team. Selling out the ground each week doesn''t make us a rich club anymore. But failing to criticise her over everything gets you branded as being ''bewitched'' by her, or Doncaster, or a relative of a board member. Utter and total crap.

Before some posters can think of what is best for the club as a whole, you included, you need to get over this whole Delia thing and actually look at what she has done well, as well as what she has done badly, and what environment she is working in (by this I mean the economic realities of running a modern Championship football club). But you won''t. You will use your dislike of her to try and heap more pressure on the club, which is exactly what they don''t need right now.
[/quote]

BDU (and MDP), I am a little perplexed to understand what conclusion you reach as to the way forward for the Club, as what you are saying about the malaise at the Club (highlighted in bold) is not so very different to my own analysis of the issues facing NCFC.

Since we all seem to agree there are problems, the first thing is to ask - do we want to raise these issues and perhaps do what we can to resolve them, or should we just ignore them and hope the issues will just go away? As you are thoughtful posters, I assume you would rather the former than the later, even if what we can acheive as fans is not so much as other parties can acheive. At the very least we can bring public opinion to bear upon the principals.

So if we do not bury our head in the sand, surely the next thing we have to do after realising we have a problem is to identify where the problems lay. We''ve had thousands of posts on the subject and without raking over old ground too much, can we agree that the main problem lies with the board? Short term problems can be placed at players, at coaching staff or at the manager, but over a longer period of time, when players, coaching staff and managers have all come and gone and the problems still exist, then would you agree with me that we have to start looking at the board as the main root cause of our present troubles? Given that many of the issues relate to the balance of investment between fixed assets and the playing squad, this has to be evidence that we should be looking at the board. And finally, the absolute level of investment is determined more by the private wealth of the board members than by the fan''s contribution via season tickets, merchandising etc.

My next point is that if we have identified the root cause of the problem, shouldn''t we then be working out how to fix the problem? I would like to know what you guys see as the solution? Do think we should do nothing? Hope that Glen gets it right? Hope that we''re lucky with injuries? Wait until less-well-run clubs have gone bankrupt?

I believe the current board has taken the club as far as they can given the funds available to them, and the funds that they seem willing to invest. Even if by some miracle we were to be promoted this season, I believe the fundamental problems will remain, because on historical evidence Premiership income will once again go into off-field activities. I would love to be proved wrong but I see no evidence why I would be proved wrong. BDU, you mention that we have to look outside our club and see that we are not alone in our problems, the root cause being that - despite English football having more money than it has ever done in its history - most clubs are in poor financial condition.

Given this, I arrive at a conclusion. The solution is, NCFC needs new investment and it has to be spent on the squad. Other than the FA/Football League/Premier League agreeing to redistribute football''s wealth more evenly throughout the divisions (to which they will never willingly agree), the only way I can see us getting anywhere the new investment we require is through a wealthy benefactor. Do you guys see another way to getting, say 20 million quid, to spend on quality players?

If it means the current board has to step down, then so be it. If it means the CEO being replaced by another suit, then that''s the price that has to be paid. There will be pain for some but the best interests of the club have to be put before any one individual.

So BDU, MDP, and Yankee too, this is how I want to go from where we are now to where we want to be - how do you guys envisage making the journey from today''s starting point to the Premiership?

[/quote]   

Yellow Hammer, I don''t have much time now as I am on my way out, but I liked the tone of your message ( even though much of what you state is similar in content to critics of the Board ) so I decided to give a quick comment and will take a look later to see how others have responded.

In essence, I agree, if we are to see a step up from where we are then it seems that we do need an owner that has greater financial resources than is currently the case. There is little merit, however, in re-stating the Peter Cullum situation as that has been well covered already. I will respond later in the day to your question. 

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Walking around the stadium this week, it occured to me how professional it all looks. It''s not bursting at the seems with extra curricualr activities like some clubs who have higher than realistic opinions of themselves.

We must realise that if we don''t keep the stadium and Colney to a standard expected of modern football, players won''t come here and neither will the fans.

We have spent money on the things that actually enhance the community feel of the club, and relatively little at that. What''s wrong with that?

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100% agree our ground is something to be proud of, but what good is that when what was played on pitch last season was mediocre to say the least.  I would sooner we had a good promotion pushing team on the pitch, rather than money being spent on restaurants and land TBH.

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It would be very interesting if someone has access to the accounts and the time, say for the last 5 years to see just how much was spent on off pitch activites and how much was spent on the playing squad?

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[quote user="Match Day Pie"]As I said, we''ve spent relatively little compared to the playing side.[/quote]

I''d just like to wish you good luck as you try to defend this statement MDP. However, for what it''s worth, I agree with you.

 

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[quote user="nutty nigel"]

[quote user="Match Day Pie"]As I said, we''ve spent relatively little compared to the playing side.[/quote]

I''d just like to wish you good luck as you try to defend this statement MDP. However, for what it''s worth, I agree with you.

 

[/quote]

Ta!

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[quote user="Match Day Pie"]As I said, we''ve spent relatively little compared to the playing side.[/quote]

Can you expand on that and give us your reasons for thinking this please?

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[quote user="mr carra"]

"We''ve had thousands of posts on the subject and without raking over old ground too much, can we agree that the main problem lies with the board? Short term problems can be placed at players, at coaching staff or at the manager, but over a longer period of time, when players, coaching staff and managers have all come and gone and the problems still exist, then would you agree with me that we have to start looking at the board as the main root cause of our present troubles? Given that many of the issues relate to the balance of investment between fixed assets and the playing squad, this has to be evidence that we should be looking at the board. And finally, the absolute level of investment is determined more by the private wealth of the board members than by the fan''s contribution via season tickets, merchandising etc."

 

I don''t think we can agree on that at all.  There is no evidence that the club has spent too much on fixed assets.  The club is a long-term ongoing entity that has existed for over 100 years and we all hope will continue to do so.  That means the long-term infrastructure has to be maintained.

I would have more fun next week if I spent money on a holiday rather than redecorating my house, but if I do that all the time eventually my house will become dilapidated.  Similarly, while we might enjoy the next season more if we spend all our money on players if, as remains the most likely outcome, we still don''t get promoted then that money will have gone down the drain and the club will never see it again (remember Southampton taking Safri off us last year because, unlike us, they were prepared to offer him £10k per week - look where that got them!).  Fixed assets, however, continue to generate income for the club to spend on players year after year.

It is by maintaining the infrastructure that the board have ensured that this is a financially fairly stable club in what is a fantastically difficult economic environment for Championship football clubs (that, incidentally is where the real blame lies).

Yes, a much richer owner will be required to enable this club to ever establish itself in the Premiership (where pretty much all the clubs lose money even with their vast TV income).  But any such owner will reap the benefits of the quality infrastructure that the current owners have given us and should reimburse them appropriately on taking over. 

If Cullum had offered £20m for a seat on the Board I''m sure it would have been accepted, but he wanted control.  People may say it is natural that he wants to retain control of his money which is, of course, fair enough.  But he was not offering to buy out Delia''s shares which means the money she has invested in the club over the years would still be tied up in it.  Since I''m betting the money she has invested is a larger share of her wealth than £20m is of Cullum''s then surely she is also at least as justified in wanting to retain control.

You can''t easily have two people in control (it is a recipe for disaster) so the only real solution is for Cullum to buy out Delia''s shares.  So far he has apparently not offered to do so, but hopefully down the line when he has generated more liquid funds from his investments he will be in a position to do it.

 

 

[/quote]agreed, this all makes perfect sense on the real economic world.  but, in the fantesy economics of the footy world, the current model is to generate speculate investment to buy success via entry to the prem league...we don''t have to like it, but thats the fact...even with our ''top3'' sell out gates, NCFC is more than likely a bottom half club in terms of spending on the team.  the boards decision to spend on assets to generate income for the team looked ''cleverer'' 3-4 years ago - but got superceeded our relegation year by the huge prem TV deal, which raised it to the worlds top footy league in the meantime.  bad time to call it wrong,,,but call it the wrong the NCFC board had - yep, delia and the rest believed the prem was set to bust and opted for the ''prudence with ambition, charlton yo-yo'' model...rather than have a real go,,,the rest is history - the prem ascent and NCFC''s decline has been in equal measure...certainly, the way stoke and hull are spending on their teams, just as pompey did, they are trying to stay in the prem - never mind the state of their grounds...look luck to ''emimo - more of the same from delia and co isn''t good enough, they are a busted flush and if they really cared about NCFC would be looking to ''let go of the reins''<?>

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[quote user="yellow hammer"]

BDU (and MDP), I am a little perplexed to understand what conclusion you reach as to the way forward for the Club, as what you are saying about the malaise at the Club (highlighted in bold) is not so very different to my own analysis of the issues facing NCFC.

Since we all seem to agree there are problems, the first thing is to ask - do we want to raise these issues and perhaps do what we can to resolve them, or should we just ignore them and hope the issues will just go away? As you are thoughtful posters, I assume you would rather the former than the later, even if what we can acheive as fans is not so much as other parties can acheive. At the very least we can bring public opinion to bear upon the principals.

So if we do not bury our head in the sand, surely the next thing we have to do after realising we have a problem is to identify where the problems lay. We''ve had thousands of posts on the subject and without raking over old ground too much, can we agree that the main problem lies with the board? Short term problems can be placed at players, at coaching staff or at the manager, but over a longer period of time, when players, coaching staff and managers have all come and gone and the problems still exist, then would you agree with me that we have to start looking at the board as the main root cause of our present troubles? Given that many of the issues relate to the balance of investment between fixed assets and the playing squad, this has to be evidence that we should be looking at the board. And finally, the absolute level of investment is determined more by the private wealth of the board members than by the fan''s contribution via season tickets, merchandising etc.

My next point is that if we have identified the root cause of the problem, shouldn''t we then be working out how to fix the problem? I would like to know what you guys see as the solution? Do think we should do nothing? Hope that Glen gets it right? Hope that we''re lucky with injuries? Wait until less-well-run clubs have gone bankrupt?

I believe the current board has taken the club as far as they can given the funds available to them, and the funds that they seem willing to invest. Even if by some miracle we were to be promoted this season, I believe the fundamental problems will remain, because on historical evidence Premiership income will once again go into off-field activities. I would love to be proved wrong but I see no evidence why I would be proved wrong. BDU, you mention that we have to look outside our club and see that we are not alone in our problems, the root cause being that - despite English football having more money than it has ever done in its history - most clubs are in poor financial condition.

Given this, I arrive at a conclusion. The solution is, NCFC needs new investment and it has to be spent on the squad. Other than the FA/Football League/Premier League agreeing to redistribute football''s wealth more evenly throughout the divisions (to which they will never willingly agree), the only way I can see us getting anywhere the new investment we require is through a wealthy benefactor. Do you guys see another way to getting, say 20 million quid, to spend on quality players?

If it means the current board has to step down, then so be it. If it means the CEO being replaced by another suit, then that''s the price that has to be paid. There will be pain for some but the best interests of the club have to be put before any one individual.

So BDU, MDP, and Yankee too, this is how I want to go from where we are now to where we want to be - how do you guys envisage making the journey from today''s starting point to the Premiership?

[/quote]Firstly, we have to balance the mistakes they have made against the good they have done. The club was in a total financial mess when they took over, they have come through this with the club in a healthy financial position. The fact that we still own our ground, have excellent training facilities etc, is a real achievement. Many of the off field investments return a profit. The ones that haven''t yet, such as the land deals, presumably will at some point. Without knowing the full business case of say the land deal, its difficult to be to critical (although it makes me uneasy). If they sell the land tomorrow and generate 5m for the squad, nobody of a right mind would complain. We have a large debt, but we also have the ability to repay it. Our club is viewed around the country as a well run, community focused club and the board need to be applauded for this. Its not all bad.The board can''t just step down without anybody replacing them. Its also obvious they won''t go without getting their money back (and why should they). They still have an important role to play. Roeder has taken the club by the scruff of the neck, and is sorting out some of the aspects the board should of. The holiday camp atmosphere is on the way out, the academy is getting a reshuffle, the scouting has also been addressed. To my mind he has started assembling a squad that that can, in time (he will need three years or so to rebuild) challenge for promotion. For a club in our financial position, we need an exceptional manager and I believe Roeder is. If we get promotion it won''t be a miracle, but damn good management (and a fair amount of luck with injuries, as all teams need). The young, talented, hungry players he is signing are the right way to go. This isn''t just hoping he gets it right, this is expecting him to do the job of an exceptional manager Do we need Cullum''s money? To get promoted with Roeder no, to get promoted with a lesser manager maybe, to become an established Premiership team yes, but we will also need a damn sight more the the 20m he promised for that. But he hasn''t gone away for ever. If he honestly loves the club as much as he said, he will be back when he has liquidated enough money. I would welcome him to make a formal offer that enables Delia and all to retire with their money back. I don''t see them refusing such an offer from Cullum. Until then, the present team (of which Roeder is key) get my full support.

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[quote user="lucky green trainers"]agreed, this all makes perfect sense on the real economic world.  but, in the fantesy economics of the footy world, the current model is to generate speculate investment to buy success via entry to the prem league...we don''t have to like it, but thats the fact...even with our ''top3'' sell out gates, NCFC is more than likely a bottom half club in terms of spending on the team.  the boards decision to spend on assets to generate income for the team looked ''cleverer'' 3-4 years ago - but got superceeded our relegation year by the huge prem TV deal, which raised it to the worlds top footy league in the meantime.  bad time to call it wrong,,,but call it the wrong the NCFC board had - yep, delia and the rest believed the prem was set to bust and opted for the ''prudence with ambition, charlton yo-yo'' model...rather than have a real go,,,the rest is history - the prem ascent and NCFC''s decline has been in equal measure...certainly, the way stoke and hull are spending on their teams, just as pompey did, they are trying to stay in the prem - never mind the state of their grounds...look luck to ''emimo - more of the same from delia and co isn''t good enough, they are a busted flush and if they really cared about NCFC would be looking to ''let go of the reins''<?>[/quote]Stoke have a rich chairman, and are spending big. Hull don''t (as far as I know) and haven''t spent much (free transfers and loans - where is their ambition ;-)Look at Watford now, didn''t seem to spend much in the Prem but are definitely a selling club now. If all other relegated teams bounced straight back up your point would be stronger, but they don''t and for many the slide is much worse than ours.

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You yourself describe the current footballing model as ''fantasy economics''.  Enough said.

Last year Hull didn''t spend that much on their team and got promoted.  Leicester spent loads and got relegated.

This league is too tight to make gambling with money particul;arly sensible.  Anyone worth a lot of money will be in the Prem so having money in this league doesn''t get you very much (ask the three newly-relegated teams with £10m parachute payments last season - Watford, Sheff U and Charlton), mainly overpriced castoffs.

What counts more is a decent manager making dceent footballing decisions.  Hopefully we have that now.

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I think Mr Carra you have ended this thread on a good point. Peter Cullum will be back when he can afford to come back..... he does have to buy out all the shareholders and not just Delia''s shareholding, he does have the credit crunch to contend with at the moment and the declining value of NCFC''s declining property values. Roeder is building a big enough team to make the team reasonably successful this season. Lets all sit back and enjoy our football at Carrow Road and see where we all are shareholders, season ticket holders, fans and players in 2009.

On the ball City!

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[quote user="Canary Nut"]

[quote user="Match Day Pie"]As I said, we''ve spent relatively little compared to the playing side.[/quote]

£7m to £9m on non critical fixed assets from and including 2004/2005 season. 

I hope you enjoy watching these assets.

[/quote]Or enjoyed watching the game whilst sitting in those ''non critical'' fixed assets.

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[quote user="Canary Nut"]

[quote user="Match Day Pie"]As I said, we''ve spent relatively little compared to the playing side.[/quote]

£7m to £9m on non critical fixed assets from and including 2004/2005 season. 

I hope you enjoy watching these assets.

[/quote]

Depends what you count as ''non critical''. Last tax year, £500,000 was put into the ''spaces for sport'' project at Carrow Park. Are you saying that isn''t necessary? Would you rather the kids of Norwich were hanging about causing trouble rather than playing footie?

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[quote user="Big Down Under"][quote user="lucky green trainers"]agreed, this all makes perfect sense on the real economic world.  but, in the fantesy economics of the footy world, the current model is to generate speculate investment to buy success via entry to the prem league...we don''t have to like it, but thats the fact...even with our ''top3'' sell out gates, NCFC is more than likely a bottom half club in terms of spending on the team.  the boards decision to spend on assets to generate income for the team looked ''cleverer'' 3-4 years ago - but got superceeded our relegation year by the huge prem TV deal, which raised it to the worlds top footy league in the meantime.  bad time to call it wrong,,,but call it the wrong the NCFC board had - yep, delia and the rest believed the prem was set to bust and opted for the ''prudence with ambition, charlton yo-yo'' model...rather than have a real go,,,the rest is history - the prem ascent and NCFC''s decline has been in equal measure...certainly, the way stoke and hull are spending on their teams, just as pompey did, they are trying to stay in the prem - never mind the state of their grounds...look luck to ''emimo - more of the same from delia and co isn''t good enough, they are a busted flush and if they really cared about NCFC would be looking to ''let go of the reins''<?>[/quote]Stoke have a rich chairman, and are spending big. Hull don''t (as far as I know) and haven''t spent much (free transfers and loans - where is their ambition ;-)Look at Watford now, didn''t seem to spend much in the Prem but are definitely a selling club now. If all other relegated teams bounced straight back up your point would be stronger, but they don''t and for many the slide is much worse than ours.[/quote]both stoke and hull have rich directors prepared to speculate with certainty of return. they''ve been succesful in gaining promotion and i''d say they are having a good go at staying up...check out the hull first team squad for this season:-

Boaz Myhill

Goalkeeper

 

2

Nathan Doyle

Midfielder

 

3

Andy Dawson

Defender

 

4

Ian Ashbee

Midfielder

 

6

Michael Turner

Defender

 

8

Nick Barmby

Midfielder

 

9

Dean Windass

Striker

 

11

Bryan Hughes

Midfielder

 

12

Matt Duke

Goalkeeper

 

13

Ryan France

Midfielder

 

14

Richard Garcia

Striker

 

15

Wayne Brown

Defender

 

17

Michael Bridges

Striker

 

18

Caleb Folan

Striker

 

19

John Welsh

Midfielder

 

20

Henrik Pedersen

Striker

 

21

Samuel Ricketts

Defender

 

22

Dean Marney

Midfielder

 

26

Tom Woodhead

Goalkeeper

 

27

Nicky Featherstone

Midfielder

 

29

Matt Plummer

Defender

 

31

Will Atkinson

Midfielder

 

32

James Bennett

Midfielder

 

37

Liam Cooper

Defender

 

44

Jay-Jay Okocha

Midfielder

 

George Boateng

Midfielder

 

Craig Fagan

Striker

 

Deiberson Geovanni

Midfielder

 
they''ve just signed gardener on loan from spurs and bid £2m for boltons davies...i''d say the tigers are showing decent ambition for a little ole club of their size in fairness???  good luck to ''em./,as for watford - its clear the directors are not speculating, and the squad is suffering - and rationally their chances of gaining promotion are less.  relegated teams will of course find it difficult to get back up if they try to balance the books, simply because there are plenty of rivals in the champs who are prepared to spend big to get up...the big prem 4 are the big prem 4 - cos they spend the most each season - although it could be argued this season that spurs will outspend arsenal, and have a decent chance of replacing them???

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[quote user="mr carra"]

You yourself describe the current footballing model as ''fantasy economics''.  Enough said.

Last year Hull didn''t spend that much on their team and got promoted.  Leicester spent loads and got relegated.

This league is too tight to make gambling with money particul;arly sensible.  Anyone worth a lot of money will be in the Prem so having money in this league doesn''t get you very much (ask the three newly-relegated teams with £10m parachute payments last season - Watford, Sheff U and Charlton), mainly overpriced castoffs.

What counts more is a decent manager making dceent footballing decisions.  Hopefully we have that now.

[/quote]yes, i did describe the current footballing model as ''fantasy economics''.  i don''t like it, but its true and in this model, different rules apply than the normal business norm.  so what do we do about it???  imo, unless NCFC is prepared to engage fully in this strange speculative model,  we will decline year on year, cos imply we cannot compete.  its death by slow financial strangulation...or do we sit tight for 4 or more years, and try to stay in this league, waiting for the bubble to burst???  re hull - they clearly spent plenty on their squad last season and before - check out their club website.  they didn''t fluke it - they just went on a great run, but deservedly so...for a club of their size, they showed great ambition and were rewarded...as for leciester - they brought in so many players (and managers) they couldn''t gell - on paper they should never have gone down.  its a freak result for them, just as when watford got promoted to the prem.  a new manager with a few old heads and talented homegrown young''uns gelled and overperformed to gain promotion.  sure - anything is possible - and i agree that a decent manager, backroom staff and support is as vital as spending the dosh - but ultimately - the more you spend, the better your chances of success, because as long as you have a decent manager who can get the squad to perform to the level of ability and beyond, you will be adequately rewarded.  an underperforming quality side (like charlton last season) will finish mid-table.  an underperforming average side, stands a chance of getting relegated (like us last season) whereas, if they overperfrom and stay injury free, they will have a chance of a top8, or play-off finish.  so i disagree - what counts is having a budget that will buy you a squad with a credible chance of top6 or even promoion, and then having a manager that can get these players to perform to the level of their ability...imo anything less than that unambitious, unless we define ambition as surviving in this league...and if thats our ambition this season, just how far have NCFC sunk???

  

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[quote user="lucky green trainers"][quote user="mr carra"]

You yourself describe the current footballing model as ''fantasy economics''.  Enough said.

Last year Hull didn''t spend that much on their team and got promoted.  Leicester spent loads and got relegated.

This league is too tight to make gambling with money particul;arly sensible.  Anyone worth a lot of money will be in the Prem so having money in this league doesn''t get you very much (ask the three newly-relegated teams with £10m parachute payments last season - Watford, Sheff U and Charlton), mainly overpriced castoffs.

What counts more is a decent manager making dceent footballing decisions.  Hopefully we have that now.

[/quote]

yes, i did describe the current footballing model as ''fantasy economics''.  i don''t like it, but its true and in this model, different rules apply than the normal business norm.  so what do we do about it???  imo, unless NCFC is prepared to engage fully in this strange speculative model,  we will decline year on year, cos imply we cannot compete.  its death by slow financial strangulation...or do we sit tight for 4 or more years, and try to stay in this league, waiting for the bubble to burst??? 

re hull - they clearly spent plenty on their squad last season and before - check out their club website.  they didn''t fluke it - they just went on a great run, but deservedly so...for a club of their size, they showed great ambition and were rewarded...

as for leciester - they brought in so many players (and managers) they couldn''t gell - on paper they should never have gone down.  its a freak result for them, just as when watford got promoted to the prem.  a new manager with a few old heads and talented homegrown young''uns gelled and overperformed to gain promotion. 

sure - anything is possible - and i agree that a decent manager, backroom staff and support is as vital as spending the dosh - but ultimately - the more you spend, the better your chances of success, because as long as you have a decent manager who can get the squad to perform to the level of ability and beyond, you will be adequately rewarded.  an underperforming quality side (like charlton last season) will finish mid-table. 

an underperforming average side, stands a chance of getting relegated (like us last season) whereas, if they overperfrom and stay injury free, they will have a chance of a top8, or play-off finish. 

so i disagree - what counts is having a budget that will buy you a squad with a credible chance of top6 or even promoion, and then having a manager that can get these players to perform to the level of their ability...imo anything less than that unambitious, unless we define ambition as surviving in this league...and if thats our ambition this season, just how far have NCFC sunk???



  
[/quote]

Good stuff LGT.....

Nothing wrong with showing ambition and it''s about time we demanded it en masse. That however is my fear and it appears that mediocrity is now the norm for NCFC.

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LGT, Its all very well throwing out words like ''unambitious'' but where the hell is the money to come from? TV revenue is now negligible for a Champs team, gate receipts do not fund spending in the way you state. So we are left with having a rich board who put their own money into the team (but we know our Board aren''t rich enough) or gambling with money we don''t have. Presumably you mean the latter, have you seen what happens to teams who do this and fail? You admit that you need luck as well as skill to get promoted, but are you seriously suggesting we gamble on getting that luck? Losing that gamble could well see us into administration, the calling in of the loan, relegation to league one, and with all of that perhaps selling the ground and training facilities to make ends meet. This is where your ''ambition'' could get you. You mention the top 4. The only club in the last 10 years to seriously threaten the top 4 was Leeds. Look where their ''ambition'' got them.We are clearly not suffering any form of death by slow strangulation, season ticket sales are up on last year and there is a waiting list for them again. We can repay our loans. We are filling our squad with exciting, young, ambitious players (although I realise that last point will be proven or disproven over the coming season).I will do my homework on Hull - but they have only definately spent 1.7m so far, with one ''undisclosed'', one loan, and three frees http://www.skysports.com/football/transfers/0,20367,11660,00.html I was under the impresion they had built wisely without spending huge figures. But if they have gambled, presumably it is with the board''s money not the clubs.If not, when they do get relegated they will be in all manner of trouble. Plenty of example clubs to chose from there.So ''ambition'' actually means gambling with the club''s future, or gambling with a rich man''s spare cash. We don''t have the latter, do you really want the former? Really?

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Nothing wrong with showing ambition and it''s about time we demanded it en masse. That however is my fear and it appears that mediocrity is now the norm for NCFC.

Well if posters on this forum are accepting you as the real Cluck, maybe you have a point for once.

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[quote user="Neil Cluckcaster"][quote user="lucky green trainers"][quote user="mr carra"]

You yourself describe the current footballing model as ''fantasy economics''.  Enough said.

Last year Hull didn''t spend that much on their team and got promoted.  Leicester spent loads and got relegated.

This league is too tight to make gambling with money particul;arly sensible.  Anyone worth a lot of money will be in the Prem so having money in this league doesn''t get you very much (ask the three newly-relegated teams with £10m parachute payments last season - Watford, Sheff U and Charlton), mainly overpriced castoffs.

What counts more is a decent manager making dceent footballing decisions.  Hopefully we have that now.

[/quote]

yes, i did describe the current footballing model as ''fantasy economics''.  i don''t like it, but its true and in this model, different rules apply than the normal business norm.  so what do we do about it???  imo, unless NCFC is prepared to engage fully in this strange speculative model,  we will decline year on year, cos imply we cannot compete.  its death by slow financial strangulation...or do we sit tight for 4 or more years, and try to stay in this league, waiting for the bubble to burst??? 

re hull - they clearly spent plenty on their squad last season and before - check out their club website.  they didn''t fluke it - they just went on a great run, but deservedly so...for a club of their size, they showed great ambition and were rewarded...

as for leciester - they brought in so many players (and managers) they couldn''t gell - on paper they should never have gone down.  its a freak result for them, just as when watford got promoted to the prem.  a new manager with a few old heads and talented homegrown young''uns gelled and overperformed to gain promotion. 

sure - anything is possible - and i agree that a decent manager, backroom staff and support is as vital as spending the dosh - but ultimately - the more you spend, the better your chances of success, because as long as you have a decent manager who can get the squad to perform to the level of ability and beyond, you will be adequately rewarded.  an underperforming quality side (like charlton last season) will finish mid-table. 

an underperforming average side, stands a chance of getting relegated (like us last season) whereas, if they overperfrom and stay injury free, they will have a chance of a top8, or play-off finish. 

so i disagree - what counts is having a budget that will buy you a squad with a credible chance of top6 or even promoion, and then having a manager that can get these players to perform to the level of their ability...imo anything less than that unambitious, unless we define ambition as surviving in this league...and if thats our ambition this season, just how far have NCFC sunk???



  
[/quote]

Good stuff LGT.....

Nothing wrong with showing ambition and it''s about time we demanded it en masse. That however is my fear and it appears that mediocrity is now the norm for NCFC.

[/quote]

Agreed here too guys. NC that is exactly my fear also, you only have to look at the where do you think we will finish thread to see that a lot of posters will be happy with us finishing mid table in the Championship this year

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[quote user="yellow hammer"][quote user="Big Down Under"][quote user="Mr.Carrow"]

MDP and BDU, no-one other than maybe a few text-speak idiots has ever posted anything like that about Delia.  By the same token i could post that both of you are bewitched by a fading celebrity who you view as a saint who can do no wrong, but it`s a bit silly really isn`t it?

There is plenty of evidence backing up MDU`s statement regarding Delias over-sensitivity, from her "I saved the club" outbursts at any criticism, to my friend who asked difficult questions at the AGM being invited to meet her to "explain what your problem is with me".  She seems to view criticism of the club as criticism of herself and i think that in some peoples minds the two things have ceased to be seperate entities.

Now, as we are all NCFC supporters why don`t we start putting as much thought and effort into what is best for the CLUB as a whole, rather than one individual who happens to be running it at the moment?

[/quote]
Thats not actually true is it? You yourself bang on about how she has lied to us (despite the fact that you need to read ''abridged'' versions of her quotes to back up the view). Cluck and others regularly state their views about her being a third rate celebrity, how she ''likes a drink'', how she is only in it for a profit or to help her sell books.

Also I have critised her plenty, but its funny how this gets overlooked.  Her hiring of Grant, the state of the Academy,  the whole seeming mindset about the club, all signs that things haven''t been all rosy and all things I have mentioned on various threads. I am also uneasy about some of the off field investments, but can''t criticise too hard on this as I don''t understand the full plans or potential of these investments. Those who bang on about hotels and restaurants just don''t understand that we NEED these activities, to help fund the team. Selling out the ground each week doesn''t make us a rich club anymore. But failing to criticise her over everything gets you branded as being ''bewitched'' by her, or Doncaster, or a relative of a board member. Utter and total crap.

Before some posters can think of what is best for the club as a whole, you included, you need to get over this whole Delia thing and actually look at what she has done well, as well as what she has done badly, and what environment she is working in (by this I mean the economic realities of running a modern Championship football club). But you won''t. You will use your dislike of her to try and heap more pressure on the club, which is exactly what they don''t need right now.
[/quote]

BDU (and MDP), I am a little perplexed to understand what conclusion you reach as to the way forward for the Club, as what you are saying about the malaise at the Club (highlighted in bold) is not so very different to my own analysis of the issues facing NCFC.

Since we all seem to agree there are problems, the first thing is to ask - do we want to raise these issues and perhaps do what we can to resolve them, or should we just ignore them and hope the issues will just go away? As you are thoughtful posters, I assume you would rather the former than the later, even if what we can acheive as fans is not so much as other parties can acheive. At the very least we can bring public opinion to bear upon the principals.

So if we do not bury our head in the sand, surely the next thing we have to do after realising we have a problem is to identify where the problems lay. We''ve had thousands of posts on the subject and without raking over old ground too much, can we agree that the main problem lies with the board? Short term problems can be placed at players, at coaching staff or at the manager, but over a longer period of time, when players, coaching staff and managers have all come and gone and the problems still exist, then would you agree with me that we have to start looking at the board as the main root cause of our present troubles? Given that many of the issues relate to the balance of investment between fixed assets and the playing squad, this has to be evidence that we should be looking at the board. And finally, the absolute level of investment is determined more by the private wealth of the board members than by the fan''s contribution via season tickets, merchandising etc.

My next point is that if we have identified the root cause of the problem, shouldn''t we then be working out how to fix the problem? I would like to know what you guys see as the solution? Do think we should do nothing? Hope that Glen gets it right? Hope that we''re lucky with injuries? Wait until less-well-run clubs have gone bankrupt?

I believe the current board has taken the club as far as they can given the funds available to them, and the funds that they seem willing to invest. Even if by some miracle we were to be promoted this season, I believe the fundamental problems will remain, because on historical evidence Premiership income will once again go into off-field activities. I would love to be proved wrong but I see no evidence why I would be proved wrong. BDU, you mention that we have to look outside our club and see that we are not alone in our problems, the root cause being that - despite English football having more money than it has ever done in its history - most clubs are in poor financial condition.

Given this, I arrive at a conclusion. The solution is, NCFC needs new investment and it has to be spent on the squad. Other than the FA/Football League/Premier League agreeing to redistribute football''s wealth more evenly throughout the divisions (to which they will never willingly agree), the only way I can see us getting anywhere the new investment we require is through a wealthy benefactor. Do you guys see another way to getting, say 20 million quid, to spend on quality players?

If it means the current board has to step down, then so be it. If it means the CEO being replaced by another suit, then that''s the price that has to be paid. There will be pain for some but the best interests of the club have to be put before any one individual.

So BDU, MDP, and Yankee too, this is how I want to go from where we are now to where we want to be - how do you guys envisage making the journey from today''s starting point to the Premiership?

[/quote]

Yellow Hammer, working with an assumption that most Norwich fans want to see us a) get back into the Premiership  and b) maintain that level, at least for a sustained period of several years, this is what I see as the most likely options available to Norwich City as to the path to achieve that objective.

Quick ( or quicker ) Route ( new owner/s):

To accelerate the timing of pursuing sustained Premiership participation we obviously need major investment from Peter Cullum or someone similar. It should now be fairly clear to all that this investor will need to pay to acquire control of the club as well as injecting significant investment into acquiring Premiership calibre players. It is also essential that such a new owner will not "blink" at the first sign of trouble on the pitch or performance level of high cost/high salary players not meeting expectation, and the need to put even more money in to acquire talent should problems occur. The latter point is no small issue and any owner with a modicum of common sense is going to be reluctant to sink additional large amounts of money into something that is not delivering the required  results.

Slower Route ( current owners ):

I believe the current strategy is more positive than what many critics of the Board would like us to believe. No owner "wants" to stick their head in the sand and stand still or go backwards. I believe the current majority owners, in their painfully slow manner for many,  have a desire to continue to build the club support base towards 30,000 attendance. I know that would be my plan. Whether you are a critic or not ( or whether you like it or not ) the club has been successful in building a support base of 25,000 even when things have not gone well in team performance. They have also probably done far better than many other Championship clubs in building towards other sources of income. 

As the owners move towards capacity expansion then there more than likely will need to be a meeting of the minds between club and fans. This will be true under the current or any new owner that emerges. If the fans want a sustained crack at Premiership football then they are going to have to pay for it. The average Premiership season ticket cost at virtually 600 pounds is almost double the average of what Norwich fans currently pay. This means that, to even consider the possibility of sustaining Premiership participation, the income from fans would need to increase the revenue to the club by approximately 10 million pounds per season versus current income  ( assuming 30,000 crowds inthe future ). Of course, I realise that the revenue from the fans alone is not going to get the job done but, if Premiership is what we want, then we have to demonstrate willingness to move to that average level paid in the Premiership. This is obviously no small issue, attested to by some of the problems being encountered by the lesser lights in the Premiership who have already had to roll back prices in order to balance the need to get crowds into the ground. On a survey of Premiership clubs healthy percentages of fans of the majority of clubs have stated they will not renew their season tickets if prices are increased. Whether this proves to be the case or, if there are numbers to fill in behind the dropouts, remains to be seen. It will be interesting to see whether Norwich fans are willing to pay those kind of numbers.

Additionally, we have to resurrect the ability to develop and groom talent from an Academy approach, even if this only serves to have the occasional star player who can be sold off for large profit to aid the greater cause. 

Obviously, the issues identified under the current owners would also likely be incorporated by any new owner. The only difference between the two is speed of implementation if a new owner was willing to take on the cost of acquisition and significant capital investment for players. To date, nobody has exercised that willingness.  

Finally, while many appear to feel that we are entitled to our time in the sun, I like to compare us to Sunderland, a bigger club without doubt and a greater fan support base over time. An unwillingness of their fans to pay high costs and, in many respects a community club similar to Norwich. Despite their pedigree and size compared to Norwich Sunderland has struggled for a long time to attain the objective that Yellow Hammer ( and others ) allude to as the objective for Norwich. I don''t mean this as a negative but it''s a useful comparison to give us perspective.

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[quote user="YankeeCanary"][quote user="yellow hammer"][quote user="Big Down Under"][quote user="Mr.Carrow"]

MDP and BDU, no-one other than maybe a few text-speak idiots has ever posted anything like that about Delia.  By the same token i could post that both of you are bewitched by a fading celebrity who you view as a saint who can do no wrong, but it`s a bit silly really isn`t it?

There is plenty of evidence backing up MDU`s statement regarding Delias over-sensitivity, from her "I saved the club" outbursts at any criticism, to my friend who asked difficult questions at the AGM being invited to meet her to "explain what your problem is with me".  She seems to view criticism of the club as criticism of herself and i think that in some peoples minds the two things have ceased to be seperate entities.

Now, as we are all NCFC supporters why don`t we start putting as much thought and effort into what is best for the CLUB as a whole, rather than one individual who happens to be running it at the moment?

[/quote]
Thats not actually true is it? You yourself bang on about how she has lied to us (despite the fact that you need to read ''abridged'' versions of her quotes to back up the view). Cluck and others regularly state their views about her being a third rate celebrity, how she ''likes a drink'', how she is only in it for a profit or to help her sell books.

Also I have critised her plenty, but its funny how this gets overlooked.  Her hiring of Grant, the state of the Academy,  the whole seeming mindset about the club, all signs that things haven''t been all rosy and all things I have mentioned on various threads. I am also uneasy about some of the off field investments, but can''t criticise too hard on this as I don''t understand the full plans or potential of these investments. Those who bang on about hotels and restaurants just don''t understand that we NEED these activities, to help fund the team. Selling out the ground each week doesn''t make us a rich club anymore. But failing to criticise her over everything gets you branded as being ''bewitched'' by her, or Doncaster, or a relative of a board member. Utter and total crap.

Before some posters can think of what is best for the club as a whole, you included, you need to get over this whole Delia thing and actually look at what she has done well, as well as what she has done badly, and what environment she is working in (by this I mean the economic realities of running a modern Championship football club). But you won''t. You will use your dislike of her to try and heap more pressure on the club, which is exactly what they don''t need right now.
[/quote]

BDU (and MDP), I am a little perplexed to understand what conclusion you reach as to the way forward for the Club, as what you are saying about the malaise at the Club (highlighted in bold) is not so very different to my own analysis of the issues facing NCFC.

Since we all seem to agree there are problems, the first thing is to ask - do we want to raise these issues and perhaps do what we can to resolve them, or should we just ignore them and hope the issues will just go away? As you are thoughtful posters, I assume you would rather the former than the later, even if what we can acheive as fans is not so much as other parties can acheive. At the very least we can bring public opinion to bear upon the principals.

So if we do not bury our head in the sand, surely the next thing we have to do after realising we have a problem is to identify where the problems lay. We''ve had thousands of posts on the subject and without raking over old ground too much, can we agree that the main problem lies with the board? Short term problems can be placed at players, at coaching staff or at the manager, but over a longer period of time, when players, coaching staff and managers have all come and gone and the problems still exist, then would you agree with me that we have to start looking at the board as the main root cause of our present troubles? Given that many of the issues relate to the balance of investment between fixed assets and the playing squad, this has to be evidence that we should be looking at the board. And finally, the absolute level of investment is determined more by the private wealth of the board members than by the fan''s contribution via season tickets, merchandising etc.

My next point is that if we have identified the root cause of the problem, shouldn''t we then be working out how to fix the problem? I would like to know what you guys see as the solution? Do think we should do nothing? Hope that Glen gets it right? Hope that we''re lucky with injuries? Wait until less-well-run clubs have gone bankrupt?

I believe the current board has taken the club as far as they can given the funds available to them, and the funds that they seem willing to invest. Even if by some miracle we were to be promoted this season, I believe the fundamental problems will remain, because on historical evidence Premiership income will once again go into off-field activities. I would love to be proved wrong but I see no evidence why I would be proved wrong. BDU, you mention that we have to look outside our club and see that we are not alone in our problems, the root cause being that - despite English football having more money than it has ever done in its history - most clubs are in poor financial condition.

Given this, I arrive at a conclusion. The solution is, NCFC needs new investment and it has to be spent on the squad. Other than the FA/Football League/Premier League agreeing to redistribute football''s wealth more evenly throughout the divisions (to which they will never willingly agree), the only way I can see us getting anywhere the new investment we require is through a wealthy benefactor. Do you guys see another way to getting, say 20 million quid, to spend on quality players?

If it means the current board has to step down, then so be it. If it means the CEO being replaced by another suit, then that''s the price that has to be paid. There will be pain for some but the best interests of the club have to be put before any one individual.

So BDU, MDP, and Yankee too, this is how I want to go from where we are now to where we want to be - how do you guys envisage making the journey from today''s starting point to the Premiership?

[/quote]

Yellow Hammer, working with an assumption that most Norwich fans want to see us a) get back into the Premiership  and b) maintain that level, at least for a sustained period of several years, this is what I see as the most likely options available to Norwich City as to the path to achieve that objective.

Quick ( or quicker ) Route ( new owner/s):

To accelerate the timing of pursuing sustained Premiership participation we obviously need major investment from Peter Cullum or someone similar. It should now be fairly clear to all that this investor will need to pay to acquire control of the club as well as injecting significant investment into acquiring Premiership calibre players. It is also essential that such a new owner will not "blink" at the first sign of trouble on the pitch or performance level of high cost/high salary players not meeting expectation, and the need to put even more money in to acquire talent should problems occur. The latter point is no small issue and any owner with a modicum of common sense is going to be reluctant to sink additional large amounts of money into something that is not delivering the required  results.

Slower Route ( current owners ):

I believe the current strategy is more positive than what many critics of the Board would like us to believe. No owner "wants" to stick their head in the sand and stand still or go backwards. I believe the current majority owners, in their painfully slow manner for many,  have a desire to continue to build the club support base towards 30,000 attendance. I know that would be my plan. Whether you are a critic or not ( or whether you like it or not ) the club has been successful in building a support base of 25,000 even when things have not gone well in team performance. They have also probably done far better than many other Championship clubs in building towards other sources of income. 

As the owners move towards capacity expansion then there more than likely will need to be a meeting of the minds between club and fans. This will be true under the current or any new owner that emerges. If the fans want a sustained crack at Premiership football then they are going to have to pay for it. The average Premiership season ticket cost at virtually 600 pounds is almost double the average of what Norwich fans currently pay. This means that, to even consider the possibility of sustaining Premiership participation, the income from fans would need to increase the revenue to the club by approximately 10 million pounds per season versus current income  ( assuming 30,000 crowds inthe future ). Of course, I realise that the revenue from the fans alone is not going to get the job done but, if Premiership is what we want, then we have to demonstrate willingness to move to that average level paid in the Premiership. This is obviously no small issue, attested to by some of the problems being encountered by the lesser lights in the Premiership who have already had to roll back prices in order to balance the need to get crowds into the ground. On a survey of Premiership clubs healthy percentages of fans of the majority of clubs have stated they will not renew their season tickets if prices are increased. Whether this proves to be the case or, if there are numbers to fill in behind the dropouts, remains to be seen. It will be interesting to see whether Norwich fans are willing to pay those kind of numbers.

Additionally, we have to resurrect the ability to develop and groom talent from an Academy approach, even if this only serves to have the occasional star player who can be sold off for large profit to aid the greater cause. 

Obviously, the issues identified under the current owners would also likely be incorporated by any new owner. The only difference between the two is speed of implementation if a new owner was willing to take on the cost of acquisition and significant capital investment for players. To date, nobody has exercised that willingness.  

Finally, while many appear to feel that we are entitled to our time in the sun, I like to compare us to Sunderland, a bigger club without doubt and a greater fan support base over time. An unwillingness of their fans to pay high costs and, in many respects a community club similar to Norwich. Despite their pedigree and size compared to Norwich Sunderland has struggled for a long time to attain the objective that Yellow Hammer ( and others ) allude to as the objective for Norwich. I don''t mean this as a negative but it''s a useful comparison to give us perspective.

[/quote]

Yankee, thank you for taking the time to put together a well-constructed post.

I have to agree with you that the way forward has to be with a big injection of new investment. Perhaps in the way that the manager is scouring the country looking for new talent, so the club should be doing the same in looking for a new benefactor. I think the board has over-done it with their strict set of criteria as to who would be a suitable investor for NCFC. We can surely filter out the asset-strippers and we''re in good enough shape not to have to prostitute ourselves to the first wealthiest opportunist a la our Suffolk "friends"; however, if they are prepared to be involved in the long term and are prepared to put the interests of the club before personal interests, then I don''t see why we can''t open up the board to, say, a foreign investor. Also, it should be a pro-active task, the board should be actively seeking new investment rather than hoping someone might turn up. For sure we don''t know everything that goes on behind the scenes, but the board should be trying to convince us that they are looking for new investment.

Your second point is an interesting one. We have built up an admirable base of 25,000 supporters, and the club has done well with various ticketing and pricing schemes to acheive this. It''s a $64,000 dollar question (excuse the pun) whether that fan base would remain if ticket prices were significantly increased. Despite the poor performances of the past few seasons, fans expectations remain high, and I think this is why our support still holds up well.  Again it is a question whether expectations would continue in the long-term if fans do not see evidence of improvement on the pitch on a Saturday afternoon. You might be able persuade fans to pay more, but it will be a difficult one to crack. Fans in the Premiership are turning away from the lesser-lights probably because thse clubs have reached the ceiling of their expectations and cannot offer more than a middle-table finish. NCFC are not yet in that position.

It''s a chicken vs. egg situation. The club needs money to buy quality players and then fans will come to the game and give the club their money. But if the fans are not there at the beginning there isn''t the money to buy quality and attract the fans. Something has to drive this, and I think it has to start with good football.

Glenn Roeder may turn out to be a good manager for NCFC who can get the best of of his players. But each player has a limit to his abilities and even the best manager in the world cannot get players to perform beyond their abilities. So once we have the good manager in place ( and I think it looks as if we have one of the better managers in the Championship), we then have to supply him with good quality players, which in the long-term, and allowing for loanees etc, will cost more than poor quality players. I''m sceptical that players will come to City because we have a great ground, they are primarily motivated by their wages and whether they''ll be picked for the first team.

Sunderland is a good case in point and it is the kind of club with which we should be comparing ourselves. I don''t have details of their struggles over the past decade so I''ll leave it to the better informed to comment.

 

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[quote user="yellow hammer"]

Yankee, thank you for taking the time to put together a well-constructed post.

I have to agree with you that the way forward has to be with a big injection of new investment. Perhaps in the way that the manager is scouring the country looking for new talent, so the club should be doing the same in looking for a new benefactor. I think the board has over-done it with their strict set of criteria as to who would be a suitable investor for NCFC. We can surely filter out the asset-strippers and we''re in good enough shape not to have to prostitute ourselves to the first wealthiest opportunist a la our Suffolk "friends"; however, if they are prepared to be involved in the long term and are prepared to put the interests of the club before personal interests, then I don''t see why we can''t open up the board to, say, a foreign investor. Also, it should be a pro-active task, the board should be actively seeking new investment rather than hoping someone might turn up. For sure we don''t know everything that goes on behind the scenes, but the board should be trying to convince us that they are looking for new investment.

Your second point is an interesting one. We have built up an admirable base of 25,000 supporters, and the club has done well with various ticketing and pricing schemes to acheive this. It''s a $64,000 dollar question (excuse the pun) whether that fan base would remain if ticket prices were significantly increased. Despite the poor performances of the past few seasons, fans expectations remain high, and I think this is why our support still holds up well.  Again it is a question whether expectations would continue in the long-term if fans do not see evidence of improvement on the pitch on a Saturday afternoon. You might be able persuade fans to pay more, but it will be a difficult one to crack. Fans in the Premiership are turning away from the lesser-lights probably because thse clubs have reached the ceiling of their expectations and cannot offer more than a middle-table finish. NCFC are not yet in that position.

It''s a chicken vs. egg situation. The club needs money to buy quality players and then fans will come to the game and give the club their money. But if the fans are not there at the beginning there isn''t the money to buy quality and attract the fans. Something has to drive this, and I think it has to start with good football.

Glenn Roeder may turn out to be a good manager for NCFC who can get the best of of his players. But each player has a limit to his abilities and even the best manager in the world cannot get players to perform beyond their abilities. So once we have the good manager in place ( and I think it looks as if we have one of the better managers in the Championship), we then have to supply him with good quality players, which in the long-term, and allowing for loanees etc, will cost more than poor quality players. I''m sceptical that players will come to City because we have a great ground, they are primarily motivated by their wages and whether they''ll be picked for the first team.

Sunderland is a good case in point and it is the kind of club with which we should be comparing ourselves. I don''t have details of their struggles over the past decade so I''ll leave it to the better informed to comment.

 

[/quote]I think the first highlighted section demonstrates a huge naivity in respect of human nature. You are expecting someone to turn up with a SPARE £50m (at least) which they are prepared to gamble on an investment to which they have no emotional attachment. First ask yourself this question: what fraction of my personal wealth would I be prepared to gamble under these circumstances? 10%? 5%? ....1%? Remember, this is something you have been offered purely as a financial investment. I would ask you to really, seriously think about this question.I would suggest that Peter Cullum is quite possibly the only person who comes anywhere near fitting the requirements, & even he, with his (apparent) attachment to the club was not prepared to put up the 3% or so of his net worth in order to secure control of the club & provide £20m for investment in players. Incidentally, are you sure £20m worth of players would guarantee promotion? I''m not.As for the second highlighted section, I remember Notts Forest under a certain Mr.Clough!

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I have to agree with you that the way forward has to be with a big

injection of new investment. Perhaps in the way that the manager is

scouring the country looking for new talent, so the club should be

doing the same in looking for a new benefactor. I think the board has

over-done it with their strict set of criteria as to who would be a

suitable investor for NCFC. We can surely filter out the

asset-strippers and we''re in good enough shape not to have to

prostitute ourselves to the first wealthiest opportunist a la our

Suffolk "friends"; however, if they are prepared to be involved in the

long term and are prepared to put the interests of the club before

personal interests
, then I don''t see why we can''t open up the board to,

say, a foreign investor. Also, it should be a pro-active task, the

board should be actively seeking new investment rather than hoping

someone might turn up. For sure we don''t know everything that goes on

behind the scenes, but the board should be trying to convince us that

they are looking for new investment.
So we need someone prepared to put millions of pounds into the club, putting their own interests second... who exactly is going to do this? People ''invest'' in football clubs because they either want to profit from it, or they do it because they love the club. Who is going to put money into a club they don''t care about without taking care of it as an investment? I would say nobody. Where exactly do you suggest the club start looking for an investor as you describe?

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[quote user="Mr.Carrow"]

[quote user="Match Day Pie"]As I said, we''ve spent relatively little compared to the playing side.[/quote]

Can you expand on that and give us your reasons for thinking this please?

[/quote]

????

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[quote user="ron obvious"][quote user="yellow hammer"]

Yankee, thank you for taking the time to put together a well-constructed post.

I have to agree with you that the way forward has to be with a big injection of new investment. Perhaps in the way that the manager is scouring the country looking for new talent, so the club should be doing the same in looking for a new benefactor. I think the board has over-done it with their strict set of criteria as to who would be a suitable investor for NCFC. We can surely filter out the asset-strippers and we''re in good enough shape not to have to prostitute ourselves to the first wealthiest opportunist a la our Suffolk "friends"; however, if they are prepared to be involved in the long term and are prepared to put the interests of the club before personal interests, then I don''t see why we can''t open up the board to, say, a foreign investor. Also, it should be a pro-active task, the board should be actively seeking new investment rather than hoping someone might turn up. For sure we don''t know everything that goes on behind the scenes, but the board should be trying to convince us that they are looking for new investment.

Your second point is an interesting one. We have built up an admirable base of 25,000 supporters, and the club has done well with various ticketing and pricing schemes to acheive this. It''s a $64,000 dollar question (excuse the pun) whether that fan base would remain if ticket prices were significantly increased. Despite the poor performances of the past few seasons, fans expectations remain high, and I think this is why our support still holds up well.  Again it is a question whether expectations would continue in the long-term if fans do not see evidence of improvement on the pitch on a Saturday afternoon. You might be able persuade fans to pay more, but it will be a difficult one to crack. Fans in the Premiership are turning away from the lesser-lights probably because thse clubs have reached the ceiling of their expectations and cannot offer more than a middle-table finish. NCFC are not yet in that position.

It''s a chicken vs. egg situation. The club needs money to buy quality players and then fans will come to the game and give the club their money. But if the fans are not there at the beginning there isn''t the money to buy quality and attract the fans. Something has to drive this, and I think it has to start with good football.

Glenn Roeder may turn out to be a good manager for NCFC who can get the best of of his players. But each player has a limit to his abilities and even the best manager in the world cannot get players to perform beyond their abilities. So once we have the good manager in place ( and I think it looks as if we have one of the better managers in the Championship), we then have to supply him with good quality players, which in the long-term, and allowing for loanees etc, will cost more than poor quality players. I''m sceptical that players will come to City because we have a great ground, they are primarily motivated by their wages and whether they''ll be picked for the first team.

Sunderland is a good case in point and it is the kind of club with which we should be comparing ourselves. I don''t have details of their struggles over the past decade so I''ll leave it to the better informed to comment.

 

[/quote]

I think the first highlighted section demonstrates a huge naivity in respect of human nature. You are expecting someone to turn up with a SPARE £50m (at least) which they are prepared to gamble on an investment to which they have no emotional attachment.
First ask yourself this question: what fraction of my personal wealth would I be prepared to gamble under these circumstances? 10%? 5%? ....1%? Remember, this is something you have been offered purely as a financial investment. I would ask you to really, seriously think about this question.
I would suggest that Peter Cullum is quite possibly the only person who comes anywhere near fitting the requirements, & even he, with his (apparent) attachment to the club was not prepared to put up the 3% or so of his net worth in order to secure control of the club & provide £20m for investment in players. Incidentally, are you sure £20m worth of players would guarantee promotion? I''m not.

As for the second highlighted section, I remember Notts Forest under a certain Mr.Clough!


[/quote]

Ron, so as to be clear, my own thinking is closely aligned with what you and BDU express. However, Yellow Hammer asked for opinions on how we see the way forward to achieving the objective. I believe it''s necessary for some posters on this forum to understand the size of the task of achieving such an objective explained to them in a positive sense and, even then, I''m not sure it will sink in.

I totally agree that some posters express their "wants" in the form of how they perceive it can be serviced from someone else''s  bottomless well of cash resources. The type of individuals who have significant financial resources did not get to that position by being foolhardy in splashing the cash around on an emotional basis.

Finally, I take your point regarding Mr. Clough, however, managers like that come around once in a blue moon and, also, the attitude of players if anything is more difficult to deal with now than when Clough was ruling the roost. 

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