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Herb

Re. Cullum, let's not forget...

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[quote user="nutty nigel"][quote user="WeAreYellows49"]

Whoever the CR PR people are need to be sacked, if something had been said after the PC debarcle, even a little snippet from the Board other than we want £56 mill & talks are terminated, then I am more than sure the fans anger would have subsided a little.  Some fans may be a little angry because the club have treated us shabbily.  What rights do we have to know what''s gone on?  Legally none, morally every right.

[/quote]

Sacking half the club is soooooooooooo last month [;)]

[/quote]

Thought you''d gone off to Sweden with the family, Nigel.

Or are you using iPass?[:)]

OTBC

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[quote user="Thorpe Stephen"]

But Towergate are not really known for thier car insurance are they????!!!????

[/quote]That matters little, what matters is insurance companies basically have a licence to print money, and not content with that they frequently abuse that position. Whether they''re insuring cars, cows or multinational companies, their form changes very little.They''re like bookies, except bookies very occasionally lose.I just think everyone is rather too quick to give 100% backing to a man we know very little about.

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[quote user="Herb"][quote user="Thorpe Stephen"]

But Towergate are not really known for thier car insurance are they????!!!????

[/quote]

That matters little, what matters is insurance companies basically have a licence to print money, and not content with that they frequently abuse that position. Whether they''re insuring cars, cows or multinational companies, their form changes very little.
They''re like bookies, except bookies very occasionally lose.

I just think everyone is rather too quick to give 100% backing to a man we know very little about.
[/quote]

Glad to see you said ''everyone''.....apart from your good self that is.

Insurance is a rip-off, that''s why the more unscrupilous in society, rip-off the insurance companies.....So, insurance companies then raise their prices.....etc, etc.

I have insurance for most of my assets, but I''ve not claimed on anything for as long as I can remember....I suppose I''m a fool.

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Hmmmm

Do you know what the Turners who Delia brought in for a poxy 2m LOAN do for a living?

Do you know who sponsers us?

Do you not think Delia has done quite well personaly through publicity from the club? { no im not suggesting shes been fiddling the club, just does well through the publicity}

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Herb ,

What do you mean we know very little about PC?

He is an extremely well known businessman with a very good reputation

He is extremely successful in a very competitive market.

His business record  is available for all to look at.

He also is well known as a philanthropist, giving freely to charity including Norfolk based charities.

I dont know what he offered S&J and I dont know what his strategy is, but I do know he has bought many companies including some much much bigger than NCFC.

I dont believe he wastes his time and I am sure he has not gone away.

My own view is that I dont care who owns the club, but we do need owners who can move the club forward, the current ones obviously cannot.

This is going to run on.

 

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[quote user="nutty nigel"][quote user="WeAreYellows49"]

Whoever the CR PR people are need to be sacked, if something had been said after the PC debarcle, even a little snippet from the Board other than we want £56 mill & talks are terminated, then I am more than sure the fans anger would have subsided a little.  Some fans may be a little angry because the club have treated us shabbily.  What rights do we have to know what''s gone on?  Legally none, morally every right.

[/quote]

Sacking half the club is soooooooooooo last month [;)]

 

[/quote]

LMAO so it is, I stand corrected good Sir [:D]

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[quote user="alykanas"]

Herb ,

What do you mean we know very little about PC?

He is an extremely well known businessman with a very good reputation

He is extremely successful in a very competitive market.

His business record  is available for all to look at.

He also is well known as a philanthropist, giving freely to charity including Norfolk based charities.

I dont know what he offered S&J and I dont know what his strategy is, but I do know he has bought many companies including some much much bigger than NCFC.

I dont believe he wastes his time and I am sure he has not gone away.

My own view is that I dont care who owns the club, but we do need owners who can move the club forward, the current ones obviously cannot.

This is going to run on.

 

[/quote]

Excellent post!

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[quote user="Arthur Whittle OBE"][quote user="alykanas"]

Herb ,

What do you mean we know very little about PC?

He is an extremely well known businessman with a very good reputation

He is extremely successful in a very competitive market.

His business record  is available for all to look at.

He also is well known as a philanthropist, giving freely to charity including Norfolk based charities.

I dont know what he offered S&J and I dont know what his strategy is, but I do know he has bought many companies including some much much bigger than NCFC.

I dont believe he wastes his time and I am sure he has not gone away.

My own view is that I dont care who owns the club, but we do need owners who can move the club forward, the current ones obviously cannot.

This is going to run on.

 

[/quote]

Excellent post!

[/quote]

Yep great post - I really really really hope though and pray to whatever being there may or may not be that PC does not turn around and say F*** it - which he has every right to do due to how he has been treated by the board. (I mean they have treated him like the lowest of the low - when they should have been encouraging people just like him)

The positive thing is that football supporting is in the blood not the brain so there may be hope yet.

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[quote user="Neil Cluckcaster"]

Classic "don''t rock the sinking boat" mentality. I think too many mainstream folk are now fed up with funding the cooks'' fantasies and are finally demanding something better for their money.

Additionally...some of us are less interested in Peter Cullum''s money than the direction and steel that a man of his business calibre would bring. No more flim flam of a giggly "has been" celebrity....and the sight of luvvie heads rolling.

 

[/quote]

Get some posts under your belt you newcomer [:D] sorry Cluck I couldn''t resist that ...arrdee.

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[quote user="Thorpe Stephen"][quote user="Arthur Whittle OBE"][quote user="alykanas"]

Herb ,

What do you mean we know very little about PC?

He is an extremely well known businessman with a very good reputation

He is extremely successful in a very competitive market.

His business record  is available for all to look at.

He also is well known as a philanthropist, giving freely to charity including Norfolk based charities.

I dont know what he offered S&J and I dont know what his strategy is, but I do know he has bought many companies including some much much bigger than NCFC.

I dont believe he wastes his time and I am sure he has not gone away.

My own view is that I dont care who owns the club, but we do need owners who can move the club forward, the current ones obviously cannot.

This is going to run on.

 

[/quote]

Excellent post!

[/quote]

Yep great post - I really really really hope though and pray to whatever being there may or may not be that PC does not turn around and say F*** it - which he has every right to do due to how he has been treated by the board. (I mean they have treated him like the lowest of the low - when they should have been encouraging people just like him)

The positive thing is that football supporting is in the blood not the brain so there may be hope yet.

[/quote]"lowest of the low"???? How melodramatic.I thought it was him that came along, announced to the press that he''d offered 20m even though he hasn''t and then sat back and watched the fireworks? The only person that''s "using" the "best fans in the world" right now is Mr P Cullum. Don''t fall for it.If he wants the club, he''ll get the club.

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In a sport where we have arms dealers, corrupt ex-world leaders, Russian oil billionaires, porn barons and Simon Jordan as club owners, I can''t really get too concerned about having an insurance man taking over.

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[quote user="no. 6"]In a sport where we have arms dealers, corrupt ex-world leaders, Russian oil billionaires, porn barons and Simon Jordan as club owners, I can''t really get too concerned about having an insurance man taking over.[/quote]

Really? Isn''t the insurance business set up in such a way to take in as much of their customers money as possible and then set up an infrastructure that prevents giving back any more than they have to? Isn''t that what some of the posters on here are claiming they are unhappy with in respect to the current majority owners?

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[quote user="arrdee"][quote user="Neil Cluckcaster"]

Classic "don''t rock the sinking boat" mentality. I think too many mainstream folk are now fed up with funding the cooks'' fantasies and are finally demanding something better for their money.

Additionally...some of us are less interested in Peter Cullum''s money than the direction and steel that a man of his business calibre would bring. No more flim flam of a giggly "has been" celebrity....and the sight of luvvie heads rolling.

 

[/quote]

Get some posts under your belt you newcomer [:D] sorry Cluck I couldn''t resist that ...arrdee.

[/quote]

You sure know how to hurt a guy don''t you arrdee?....and it was Cluckin Nora by the way.. ... [:)]

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[quote user="YankeeCanary"][quote user="Neil Cluckcaster"][quote user="Herb"][quote user="Neil Cluckcaster"]

Additionally...some of us are less interested in Peter Cullum''s money than the direction and steel that a man of his business calibre would bring.

[/quote]

Yeah, of course. I''m sure you didn''t even notice Cullum''s mention of 20m, you just started salivating at the direction and steel he''d bring.
Meanwhile, back on planet earth....

Theres a difference between wanting something better than the current board (which I think most fans would) and giving the club away to an insurance man no questions asked.
And no questions are being asked. Hence why despite not making an offer for control of the club, everyone seems to have decided that Delia wants 150 squillion quid in unmarked note dropping off at Stowmarket before she''ll even talk.

The more intelligent amonst us are reading between the lines and thinking "Whats his bloody game, then?"

[/quote]

My apologies.....

When my arse starts talking next I''ll try to communicate better with you......

[/quote]

I see. Well, Cluck, we have a few spare guided missiles sitting around so, if you will be good enough to provide your address, we''ll send you one gift wrapped. We won''t concern ourselves with which end of your anatomy we target as your output from either end is remarkably similar.

[/quote]

I''d save those missiles for your next invasion plans Yank....and being the male of the species I fear I''ll never have the right equipment to communicate with you........

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[quote user="YankeeCanary"] Really? Isn''t the insurance business set up in such a way to take in as much of their customers money as possible and then set up an infrastructure that prevents giving back any more than they have to? Isn''t that what some of the posters on here are claiming they are unhappy with in respect to the current majority owners?[/quote]

What you''ve said is true for pretty much every billionaire, no-one makes that amount of money being by giving back any more than they have to. My point is that as billionaires go, Peter Cullum is a fairly benign one.

Is Peter Cullum a ruthless businessman? Probably, but we''re not really in any position to be knocking back billionaires based on their morals. If his offer wasn''t up to scratch, then fair enough, but the board aren''t doing themselves any favours by keeping everyone in the dark.

There''s also an argument to be made (and indeed the new look Cluck is making it), that a ruthless businessman is exactly what we need to move upwards as a club.

Its all hypothetical at this point, maybe Cullum will takeover, rack up huge debts, sell all our players and asset strip, maybe he''ll give us a yearly transfer budget comparable to the GDP of Luxembourg, we just don''t know.

However, we know exactly what we''re going to get with our current board - no ambition, disapearing transfer profits, and poor football on show. Rightly or wrongly, some fans have had enough of this and just want someone else to have a go.

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Could not say it better no.6.

Even if you hate insurance people (thats half of the Norwich population) the current board are not going to get us where we all want to be....

So Delia supporters where do we go from here.....silence........

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[quote user="Neil Cluckcaster"][quote user="YankeeCanary"][quote user="Neil Cluckcaster"][quote user="Herb"][quote user="Neil Cluckcaster"]

Additionally...some of us are less interested in Peter Cullum''s money than the direction and steel that a man of his business calibre would bring.

[/quote]

Yeah, of course. I''m sure you didn''t even notice Cullum''s mention of 20m, you just started salivating at the direction and steel he''d bring.
Meanwhile, back on planet earth....

Theres a difference between wanting something better than the current board (which I think most fans would) and giving the club away to an insurance man no questions asked.
And no questions are being asked. Hence why despite not making an offer for control of the club, everyone seems to have decided that Delia wants 150 squillion quid in unmarked note dropping off at Stowmarket before she''ll even talk.

The more intelligent amonst us are reading between the lines and thinking "Whats his bloody game, then?"

[/quote]

My apologies.....

When my arse starts talking next I''ll try to communicate better with you......

[/quote]

I see. Well, Cluck, we have a few spare guided missiles sitting around so, if you will be good enough to provide your address, we''ll send you one gift wrapped. We won''t concern ourselves with which end of your anatomy we target as your output from either end is remarkably similar.

[/quote]

I''d save those missiles for your next invasion plans Yank....and being the male of the species I fear I''ll never have the right equipment to communicate with you........

[/quote]

Your early days as Nora had some of us confused. Then again, you may have been going through a confusing period yourself. I''m actually pleased for you that you seem to have found yourself now.

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[quote user="YankeeCanary"][quote user="Neil Cluckcaster"][quote user="YankeeCanary"][quote user="Neil Cluckcaster"][quote user="Herb"][quote user="Neil Cluckcaster"]

Additionally...some of us are less interested in Peter Cullum''s money than the direction and steel that a man of his business calibre would bring.

[/quote]

Yeah, of course. I''m sure you didn''t even notice Cullum''s mention of 20m, you just started salivating at the direction and steel he''d bring.
Meanwhile, back on planet earth....

Theres a difference between wanting something better than the current board (which I think most fans would) and giving the club away to an insurance man no questions asked.
And no questions are being asked. Hence why despite not making an offer for control of the club, everyone seems to have decided that Delia wants 150 squillion quid in unmarked note dropping off at Stowmarket before she''ll even talk.

The more intelligent amonst us are reading between the lines and thinking "Whats his bloody game, then?"

[/quote]

My apologies.....

When my arse starts talking next I''ll try to communicate better with you......

[/quote]

I see. Well, Cluck, we have a few spare guided missiles sitting around so, if you will be good enough to provide your address, we''ll send you one gift wrapped. We won''t concern ourselves with which end of your anatomy we target as your output from either end is remarkably similar.

[/quote]

I''d save those missiles for your next invasion plans Yank....and being the male of the species I fear I''ll never have the right equipment to communicate with you........

[/quote]

Your early days as Nora had some of us confused. Then again, you may have been going through a confusing period yourself. I''m actually pleased for you that you seem to have found yourself now.

[/quote]

I have indeed Yank...and so I have a number of nice dresses available for purchase....but being a Yank I guess a size 16 would be many sizes too small for you....eh fatty boy?

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[quote user="no. 6"][quote user="YankeeCanary"] Really? Isn''t the insurance business set up in such a way to take in as much of their customers money as possible and then set up an infrastructure that prevents giving back any more than they have to? Isn''t that what some of the posters on here are claiming they are unhappy with in respect to the current majority owners?[/quote]

What you''ve said is true for pretty much every billionaire, no-one makes that amount of money being by giving back any more than they have to. My point is that as billionaires go, Peter Cullum is a fairly benign one.

Is Peter Cullum a ruthless businessman? Probably, but we''re not really in any position to be knocking back billionaires based on their morals. If his offer wasn''t up to scratch, then fair enough, but the board aren''t doing themselves any favours by keeping everyone in the dark.

There''s also an argument to be made (and indeed the new look Cluck is making it), that a ruthless businessman is exactly what we need to move upwards as a club.

Its all hypothetical at this point, maybe Cullum will takeover, rack up huge debts, sell all our players and asset strip, maybe he''ll give us a yearly transfer budget comparable to the GDP of Luxembourg, we just don''t know.

However, we know exactly what we''re going to get with our current board - no ambition, disapearing transfer profits, and poor football on show. Rightly or wrongly, some fans have had enough of this and just want someone else to have a go.

[/quote]

 

Quite right no. 6, myself and my better half have had enough and want someone on the board to take our club forwards.

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[quote user="WeAreYellows49"][quote user="no. 6"][quote user="YankeeCanary"] Really? Isn''t the insurance business set up in such a way to take in as much of their customers money as possible and then set up an infrastructure that prevents giving back any more than they have to? Isn''t that what some of the posters on here are claiming they are unhappy with in respect to the current majority owners?[/quote]

What you''ve said is true for pretty much every billionaire, no-one makes that amount of money being by giving back any more than they have to. My point is that as billionaires go, Peter Cullum is a fairly benign one.

Is Peter Cullum a ruthless businessman? Probably, but we''re not really in any position to be knocking back billionaires based on their morals. If his offer wasn''t up to scratch, then fair enough, but the board aren''t doing themselves any favours by keeping everyone in the dark.

There''s also an argument to be made (and indeed the new look Cluck is making it), that a ruthless businessman is exactly what we need to move upwards as a club.

Its all hypothetical at this point, maybe Cullum will takeover, rack up huge debts, sell all our players and asset strip, maybe he''ll give us a yearly transfer budget comparable to the GDP of Luxembourg, we just don''t know.

However, we know exactly what we''re going to get with our current board - no ambition, disapearing transfer profits, and poor football on show. Rightly or wrongly, some fans have had enough of this and just want someone else to have a go.

[/quote]

 

Quite right no. 6, myself and my better half have had enough and want someone on the board to take our club forwards.

[/quote]

I agree with much of what you say no. 6 and would like to see us move forward. Like many others, I am patiently waiting to see what develops. More than a few posters have allowed their thinking to get sidetracked with thoughts like, "It doesn''t matter what Peter Cullum does, Delia does not want to sell." However, if you read the essence of what Herb has said at the outset of this thread then I believe those thoughts are the crux of the matter as far as Peter Cullum is concerned. If he chooses, he has a) the financial ability to make this deal happen right now or b) he has the ability to structure his offer in the right way both in the amount and in a way that most observers would regard as fair ( right now only some think the 20 million offer is fair ) and then, if he meets resistance, take his offer public and make it clear to any thinking person that he is not the obstacle to taking the club forward. This would, without a shadow of a doubt, put the current majority owners in a complete state of isolation if they truly do want to hold on to the club. But, as Herb points out,  Peter Cullum has not done that. Whether the difference he would have to anti up is 10 or 20 million ( it is clearly not 36 million ) this is small change for Peter if his mission is clear.

P.S: If you truly want us to move forward should your name not reflect that same kind of thinking, or do you have another favourite occupying the shirt?   

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[quote user="YankeeCanary"]

If he meets resistance, take his offer public and make it clear to any thinking person that he is not the obstacle to taking the club forward. This would, without a shadow of a doubt, put the current majority owners in a complete state of isolation if they truly do want to hold on to the club. But, as Herb points out,  Peter Cullum has not done that. Whether the difference he would have to anti up is 10 or 20 million ( it is clearly not 36 million ) this is small change for Peter if his mission is clear.

P.S: If you truly want us to move forward should your name not reflect that same kind of thinking, or do you have another favourite occupying the shirt?   

[/quote]

Personally I want Peter Cullum to do that - I am impatient and worried that he may not and just walk away - however, being honest I would rather he does it after we have made the signings we are planning on making - I could argue back to myselt that the £20m would make signings easier - but funds may not be able to move that quickly to take effect this transfer window even if an agreement of any sort could be made due to pressure or whatever.

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[quote user="milan marcus"]

"If Cullum wants this club, he should pay a fair price for whatever is required to gain control"    ha ha ha ha ha ha

[/quote]

seems reasonable

[quote user="milan marcus"]

Are you saying £20 million in cash is not enough for 51% of NCFC? whats your idea of a fair price did you go to school with Delia should it be £56 million for a club that is £16 million in debt?

[/quote]

How many times does it need to be said. PC admitted that £56 million was a fair valuation. Even if they sold him the club for the £20 Million where is the extra money for players?

[quote user="milan marcus"]

Mark my words Herb et al the day the club turned down PC offer was the day they betrayed us all.

[/quote]Childish emotive drivel, exactly what PC going the press was designed to evoke.

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[quote user="YankeeCanary"]
I agree with much of what you say no. 6 and would like to see us move forward. Like many others, I am patiently waiting to see what develops. More than a few posters have allowed their thinking to get sidetracked with thoughts like, "It doesn''t matter what Peter Cullum does, Delia does not want to sell." However, if you read the essence of what Herb has said at the outset of this thread then I believe those thoughts are the crux of the matter as far as Peter Cullum is concerned. If he chooses, he has a) the financial ability to make this deal happen right now or b) he has the ability to structure his offer in the right way both in the amount and in a way that most observers would regard as fair ( right now only some think the 20 million offer is fair ) and then, if he meets resistance, take his offer public and make it clear to any thinking person that he is not the obstacle to taking the club forward. This would, without a shadow of a doubt, put the current majority owners in a complete state of isolation if they truly do want to hold on to the club. But, as Herb points out,  Peter Cullum has not done that. Whether the difference he would have to anti up is 10 or 20 million ( it is clearly not 36 million ) this is small change for Peter if his mission is clear. [/quote]

It depends what you mean by fair here, after all, what the current shareholders see as a fair value, may not be in the best interests of the club. If Cullum has a set amount of his immense wealth available for football projects, then the more it costs him to buy Delia out, the less goes on football. I''m all for a fair comprimise, but I''m not going to lose any sleep if Delia doesn''t get her money back after all the various quotes from her that have been dredged up.

Some posters (not implying you) seem more concerned with Delia getting back what she put in, than in the wellbeing of the club.

Personally I''d like it if Cullum did exactly what you''ve said there, make a concrete offer and give the board nowhere to hide, but unfortunately, I don''t think that is his plan.

As a fan, he''s pretty much in a win/win situation, either his offer puts a rocket up the board''s arse and we go into next season all guns blazing and everyone is happy, or we continue in the vein of recent seasons, and the inevitable fan pressure leads to him getting the club for less than the quoted 56 million.

[quote]P.S: If you truly want us to move forward should your name not reflect that same kind of thinking, or do you have another favourite occupying the shirt?   [/quote]
More in reference to Patrick Mcgoohan than Darren Huckerby.

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SPat

Childish emotive drivel..... emotion is what drives real fans in supporting our clubs.  Grey non emotive people like you will never understand the passion real fans have for football. 

How many times do real fans have to tell people like you that PC did not and will not buy the whole football club. 

He wants to invest £20 million into the club for players in return he wants a minium of 51% of the club.  All Delia and the board had to do was to reduce her shares to 49%.

That 49% is worth far more with £20 million to spend on players than 100% of a club with no real money for transfers

We feel betrayed because Delia and the board did not take this offer to build a team to take us where we deserve to be.

I am sure you would rather £20 million be spent on new kitchens or hotels or Delia''s bank balance but we want it spent on players!!!

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20m makes players richer it does not generate extra cash for the shareholders if that is not the case then why don''t all the fans also just donate half their wealth - they don''t because they know it is not a good investment.

A minority is probably worthless as who would want to buy a minority interest in a football club - why do you think PC wanted control  - because that is where the value is. When you buy a business out you buy the exsisting shareholders out otherwise there money is trapped - its basic business like or not.

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T

fair post but still think you guys are very wrong

Hundreds of investment firms take minority stakes in various business infact thats how the investment markets work.  I don''t think the orginal minority shareholders of Google are saying they have no value in their shares......

Therefore what I want Delia and the existing shareholders to do is to become minority shareholders in the club at 49%.  I honestly beleive that the new 49% stake is worth far more with PC owning 51% and investing £20 million into the team then the current value of owning 100% of the club with no cash and no chance to compete for promotion.

Once PC controls the club I and many others believe he win install a new winning desire into the club. 

Lets argue that the £20 million gets us promoted (I reckon we would have a 40/50% as opposed to no chance now) how much value is 49% of a premiership club these days.  Do you really think its a worthless stake.

The logic of the above suggests Delia has let the greed and power of football get to her head - she wants control for contols sake

That is why I feel betrayed

I loved Delia and rate Doncaster however something has gone very wrong and the least we deserve is a detailed explanation of what happened.  No other clubs fans would take losing £20 million like we have however if the results go wrong then I feel the current board will been in very deep trouble.

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[quote user="milan marcus"]

The logic of the above suggests Delia has let the greed and power of football get to her head - she wants control for contols sake

That is why I feel betrayed

I loved Delia and rate Doncaster however something has gone very wrong and the least we deserve is a detailed explanation of what happened.  No other clubs fans would take losing £20 million like we have however if the results go wrong then I feel the current board will been in very deep trouble.

[/quote]

Ditto and unfortunately I cant see us being competitive and we are likely for a very messy few months which could ruin our season :-(

Bigger Gamble for Delia is to stay as we are IMO - but perhaps they are happy with the Status quo of occasionally having the chance of promotion if things fall in place, occasionally have the chance of relegation if things dont fall in place - but as likely as not be a mid table championship side for seasons and seasons to come.

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[quote user="milan marcus"]

SPat

Childish emotive drivel..... emotion is what drives real fans in supporting our clubs.  Grey non emotive people like you will never understand the passion real fans have for football. 

How many times do real fans have to tell people like you that PC did not and will not buy the whole football club. 

He wants to invest £20 million into the club for players in return he wants a minium of 51% of the club.  All Delia and the board had to do was to reduce her shares to 49%.

That 49% is worth far more with £20 million to spend on players than 100% of a club with no real money for transfers

We feel betrayed because Delia and the board did not take this offer to build a team to take us where we deserve to be.

I am sure you would rather £20 million be spent on new kitchens or hotels or Delia''s bank balance but we want it spent on players!!!

[/quote]Thanks for telling me how "real" passionate fans feel, very informativeSo Einstein, he want''s 51% of the club. So how much of the £20 million is for players then? I want £20 million to be spent on players, that means that PC has to offer more than that amount. Not that hard to grasp is it.You feel betrayed because you want to feel that way

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SPat my poor deluded Delia fan.....

Let me explain it very simply for you:

In return for PC investing £20 million in players the club give him 51% of the shares

If you or any other fans do not think £20 million is enough for control of the club then please explain why. 

Delia and the existing shareholders 49% stake is worth far more with a transfer kitty of £20 million for players than 100% of a club with no ablity to challenge for the top two postions and a very divided fan base

 

 

 

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