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dylanisabaddog

Axa - a clue to the failed takeover

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The EDP reports today that "One of the big stumbling blocks is the club''s existing £15m debt.  Whilst Cullum was confident he could simply renegiotiate the deal and take it on, it is believed that Axa, which financed £12m of that sum, would insist on complete repayment of its share at any chamge of club ownership."

There are many people on this message board who trust Peter Cullum.  It would appear that Axa share the view of the Board of Directors, who clearly do not.n can there be for Axa to refuse to lend money to NCFC under the control of Cullum?  The only logical explanation I can think of is that they are worried that they might not get their money back.  This is probably because of the way that Cullum intends to introduce the promised £20m transfer kitty into the club.  It has been suggested that this would be by means of a share issue, which is unlikely as it would result in the value of the shares as a whole being devalued, thus resulting in Cullum losing his money.  He is unlikely to simply gift the money to the club, businessmen simply don''t operate that way.  What has probably worried Axa is that Cullum intended to loan the £20m, leaving the club owing £15m on the existing debt, another £20m to him and £4m to the current directors.  What''s more, the club would be spending the money on players (and their wages) who could be worthless in 3 years when they walk away from their contracts.  A debt of £39m may, in some people''s opinion, be bearable if we got promoted and stayed in the Premier League, but Axa, like me, are clearly not prepared to gamble on it.  Perhaps they are worried that rather than ger promoted, we get relegated.  A debt of £35m in League 1 could kill the club.

I have read several messages suggesting that we protest against the Board.  Can I suggest that we wait until the full facts are known?  If it turns out that a good offer has been made then I agree we should all push for it to be accepted.  At the moment, however, all we know is that an independent company that was prepared to lend the club money under the current regime is not prepared to do so with Cullum in charge.  Perhaps we should all stop, think and wonder why.

 

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From what I read it was Cullum''s ''representatives'' saying "£20mil take it or leave it" whenever the board tried to come up with alternative methods to get the deal sorted, that messed the whole thing up.But then again I can''t read.

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[quote user="Fozzie"]From what I read it was Cullum''s ''representatives'' saying "£20mil take it or leave it" whenever the board tried to come up with alternative methods to get the deal sorted, that messed the whole thing up.

But then again I can''t read.
[/quote]now stop it...im in tears.....

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[quote user="city-till-i-die"][quote user="Fozzie"]From what I read it was Cullum''s ''representatives'' saying "£20mil take it or leave it" whenever the board tried to come up with alternative methods to get the deal sorted, that messed the whole thing up.But then again I can''t read.[/quote]now stop it...im in tears.....[/quote]*puts onion and knife down*

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[quote user="Fozzie"][quote user="city-till-i-die"][quote user="Fozzie"]From what I read it was Cullum''s ''representatives'' saying "£20mil take it or leave it" whenever the board tried to come up with alternative methods to get the deal sorted, that messed the whole thing up.

But then again I can''t read.
[/quote]now stop it...im in tears.....[/quote]

*puts onion and knife down*
[/quote]tfft...thnk f**k for that...lol

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[quote user="dylanisabaddog"]

The EDP reports today that "One of the big stumbling blocks is the club''s existing £15m debt.  Whilst Cullum was confident he could simply renegiotiate the deal and take it on, it is believed that Axa, which financed £12m of that sum, would insist on complete repayment of its share at any chamge of club ownership."

There are many people on this message board who trust Peter Cullum.  It would appear that Axa share the view of the Board of Directors, who clearly do not.n can there be for Axa to refuse to lend money to NCFC under the control of Cullum?  The only logical explanation I can think of is that they are worried that they might not get their money back.  This is probably because of the way that Cullum intends to introduce the promised £20m transfer kitty into the club.  It has been suggested that this would be by means of a share issue, which is unlikely as it would result in the value of the shares as a whole being devalued, thus resulting in Cullum losing his money.  He is unlikely to simply gift the money to the club, businessmen simply don''t operate that way.  What has probably worried Axa is that Cullum intended to loan the £20m, leaving the club owing £15m on the existing debt, another £20m to him and £4m to the current directors.  What''s more, the club would be spending the money on players (and their wages) who could be worthless in 3 years when they walk away from their contracts.  A debt of £39m may, in some people''s opinion, be bearable if we got promoted and stayed in the Premier League, but Axa, like me, are clearly not prepared to gamble on it.  Perhaps they are worried that rather than ger promoted, we get relegated.  A debt of £35m in League 1 could kill the club.

I have read several messages suggesting that we protest against the Board.  Can I suggest that we wait until the full facts are known?  If it turns out that a good offer has been made then I agree we should all push for it to be accepted.  At the moment, however, all we know is that an independent company that was prepared to lend the club money under the current regime is not prepared to do so with Cullum in charge.  Perhaps we should all stop, think and wonder why.

 

[/quote]

Mr Cullum is a Billion £ player in the Insurance business. Are you telling me he does not have a tie up or contact with AXA who are an insurance company not a bank.... you must be joking. Cullum knows them all thats what the club dont like, Delia feels vulnerable and does not want to let go of her toy. The club have not told the truth about this weeks negotiations, there was none... they put impossible conditions on Cullum before they would meet with him, instead of inviting him in to discuss issues face to face. There was NO MEETING the club are lying, you watch the press next week and you will see what really happened.

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Cullum is a 1.7 BILLION quid insurance bigwig, AXA would have bent over backwards to have him responsible for the debt as opposed to "WHER R U?!" Drunken Delia.The reason this has gone south is simple, Delia doesnt want to sell.

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[quote user="Canary Wundaboy"]Cullum is a 1.7 BILLION quid insurance bigwig, AXA would have bent over backwards to have him responsible for the debt as opposed to "WHER R U?!" Drunken Delia.
The reason this has gone south is simple, Delia doesnt want to sell.
[/quote]the next step... 4 THE FANS IS PROTEST PROTEST AND OH YER PROTEST...WE GOT CHASE OUT SO WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE???

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Ok I know this is my first post but please give a moment. I don''t knw what it is about this post but I think I can see soemthings your missing:[quote user="dylanisabaddog"] It would appear that Axa share the view of the Board of Directors, who clearly do not.n can there be for Axa to refuse to lend money to NCFC under the control of Cullum?  The only logical explanation I can think of is that they are worried that they might not get their money back.  [/quote]I can think of some more, when the Board took the loan out banks were dishing loans out like no bodies business. Then about a year ago things started to go pear shaped in America and people couldn''t pay back these loans and banks lost money making them loose money the knock on affect is the Credit Crunch. Now people that have had mortgages before can''t get new ones, same could go for loans. There''s also other things that could come to mind like Recession and Economic Slowdown. While I believe you are partially right in the fact they believe they won''t get their money back I personally think this could be down to more than just the fact it''s Cullum. Think about it if the UK goes into recession some people won''t be able to afford to go see their team alot causing knock on affects to the clubs finances even with a billionaire in control. At a time when people are having to tighten their belts due to rising prices in fuel, gas, food etc what type of things are going to suffer? Luxuries and a thing like going to watch live football everyweek is a luxury. Also let''s face it lending money to football clubs doesn''t mean a guaranteed return on the money you put in and the examples are glaringly obvious in recent history. All thouse things together wouldn''t you insist that if a football club changed hands you get your money back?Now let''s consider who owns the debt. It''s a NCFC debt to Axa. NCFC is a Plc which means if it folds (I sincerely hope it doesn''t but this is purely an example) Delia et al. won''t have to pay a penny, sure they''ll loose their investment but they''ll only loose what they have already put into the club. Now if PC did take over the club it would either remain a Plc or he could change it to a Ltd company. If the loan was renegotiated the debt still be against NCFC and not PC''s £1.7 billion so what would Axa gain by renegotiating the loan? Nothing and in the current climate they may not want to loan any more money to either the current board or renegotiate the loan with anyone.[quote user="dylanisabaddog"]This is probably because of the way that

Cullum intends to introduce the promised £20m transfer kitty into the

club.  It has been suggested that this would be by means of a share

issue, which is unlikely as it would result in the value of the shares

as a whole being devalued, thus resulting in Cullum losing his money. 

[/quote]This like my above statement  is pure conjecture and opinion. While I agree it seems PC wanted into the club via a share issue we haven''t seen facts to confirm this because apart from the "20 million for players in exchange for control" we don''t know how he was hoping to do this. As for loosing money, there''s masses of money in football but very little profit for clubs, sure you might get lucky once and make a killing (Mandric at Pompey) but 9/10 times or more you loose money and as someone who obviously does have a very good business brain why would he put money into football to make profit?[quote user="dylanisabaddog"] He is unlikely to simply gift the money

to the club, businessmen simply don''t operate that way. [/quote]Does PC not own a charity? Has he not Given 10 million to the college he went to in London? As for gifting the money to the club, would you give £20 million over and say I want this invested in the team and simply trust people to what you asked them to with no way of ever proving it was spent how you wanted it to be spent? You can say check the yearly accounts but accountants are clever and know how to make unsuccessful companies look successful even if it is only for a year or two, who is to say they can''t do that and then say two years down the line "oh sorry it''s gone but look we paid £3.5 million for Ameobi" PC would then of seen his money wasted with no come back as it was a "gift". I don''t blame him for not gifting the money I know I wouldn''t as I would want some way of knowing it was spent on what I wanted it to be spent on. It wouldn''t matter to me if it was Delia I was giving the money to or PC at the end of the day I would want to make sure that money was spent on what I gave it to the club for. [quote user="dylanisabaddog"]What has probably worried Axa is that

Cullum intended to loan the £20m, leaving the club owing £15m on the

existing debt, another £20m to him and £4m to the current directors. 

What''s more, the club would be spending the money on players (and their

wages) who could be worthless in 3 years when they walk away from their

contracts.  A debt of £39m may, in some people''s opinion, be bearable

if we got promoted and stayed in the Premier League, but Axa, like me,

are clearly not prepared to gamble on it. [/quote]Again it''s that word "probably" which to me means your speculating just like I was before. I have no problem with this everyone is entitled to an opinion but until I see the facts and/or reasons why Axa insist on full repayment whether it is because PC intened to loan the money or there are larger economical factors involved I''m inclined to believe it''s to do with the credit crunch etc. purely because I know this is happening.[quote user="dylanisabaddog"]I have read several messages suggesting

that we protest against the Board.  Can I suggest that we wait until

the full facts are known?  If it turns out that a good offer has been

made then I agree we should all push for it to be accepted.  At the

moment, however, all we know is that an independent company that was

prepared to lend the club money under the current regime is not

prepared to do so with Cullum in charge.  Perhaps we should all stop,

think and wonder why.[/quote]Now this I completly agree with this bit I would like to hear the story from the board and from PC and then try and find the truth in the middle but I seriously that will ever happen. I don''t think protest is the way to go just yet as you never know what might happen in a few months time I just hope that if someting does happen it''s not already too late.Davo

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i wouldnt take part in any protest now tbh...

the Worthy out ones left me feeling very drained....

A few bad results next season and things will speak for themselves anyway

jas :)

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[quote user="jas the barclay king"]

i wouldnt take part in any protest now tbh...

the Worthy out ones left me feeling very drained....

A few bad results next season and things will speak for themselves anyway

jas :)

[/quote]

Still at least they gave us the success you promised! Thanks.

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[quote user="Badger"][quote user="jas the barclay king"]

i wouldnt take part in any protest now tbh...

the Worthy out ones left me feeling very drained....

A few bad results next season and things will speak for themselves anyway

jas :)

[/quote]

Still at least they gave us the success you promised! Thanks.

[/quote]

i idnt promise anything!? when was this?

jas :)

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[quote user="Canary Wundaboy"]Cullum is a 1.7 BILLION quid insurance bigwig, AXA would have bent over backwards to have him responsible for the debt as opposed to "WHER R U?!" Drunken Delia.
The reason this has gone south is simple, Delia doesnt want to sell.
[/quote]

Not necessarily.  For starters AXA and Towergate are competitors.  Secondly we are in the midst of a credit crunch with the spectre of recession looming, consider that AXA would like to just get out of football all together and put their money somewhere safer.

IMO the reason this has gone south is because Cullum wanted the club for nothing and Delia wanted a little too much.

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[quote user="Badger"]Davo - I don''t think NCFC is a PLC is it?[/quote]Google is your friend here :) The point is that whether they are a Limited Company ot a Public Limited Company if Axa decided to pull the plug then Delia will only loose the money she''s already put into the club. Same would go for Peter Cullum his fortune would be safe because of a thing called Limited liability. Again google is your friend here.Davo

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Davo - my point is that as a PLC our shares would be publicly tradeable and therefore much more easily available for someone like Callum to obtain a significant stake if he wanted.

The other point is that ltd companies do have limited liability but sometimes loans etc can be personally guaranteed meaning that the bank would be able to call on the personal assets of the guarantor.

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[quote user="Badger"]

Davo - my point is that as a PLC our shares would be publicly tradeable and therefore much more easily available for someone like Callum to obtain a significant stake if he wanted.[/quote]

Whole NCFC is a PLC the shares aren''t on the stock market and there''s only a certain amount. For him to get the kind of percentage to take control he needs to buy the shares off the very people that aren''t selling them to him like the board. If people don''t sell or there isn''t an issue of new shares he can''t buy simple as.

Davo

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My understanding is that PLC shares have to traded publicly - if not on the Stcok Exchange, other finacial markets (the AIM?). The Smiths own (according to others on the website - I don''t know) 61% of shares.

If Cullam were to buy a significant proportion of the rest he would have to be in a much stronger position to push for an issue of new shares. If the board refused a new issue even loyalists like me would begin to wonder.

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[quote user="Badger"]

My understanding is that PLC shares have to traded publicly - if not on the Stcok Exchange, other finacial markets (the AIM?). The Smiths own (according to others on the website - I don''t know) 61% of shares.

If Cullam were to buy a significant proportion of the rest he would have to be in a much stronger position to push for an issue of new shares. If the board refused a new issue even loyalists like me would begin to wonder.

[/quote]

My understanding, is Cullam can do what he bloody well likes......It''s what Cullum does - is my major concern.

Regarding Dahlia Spliff and Michael Won Ton Junes? I think they need to return to the negotiating table.

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[quote user="Mello Yello"][quote user="Badger"]

My understanding is that PLC shares have to traded publicly - if not on the Stcok Exchange, other finacial markets (the AIM?). The Smiths own (according to others on the website - I don''t know) 61% of shares.

If Cullam were to buy a significant proportion of the rest he would have to be in a much stronger position to push for an issue of new shares. If the board refused a new issue even loyalists like me would begin to wonder.

[/quote]

My understanding, is Cullam can do what he bloody well likes......It''s what Cullum does - is my major concern.

Regarding Dahlia Spliff and Michael Won Ton Junes? I think they need to return to the negotiating table.

[/quote]

But Callum is the power behind the throne!

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[quote user="Badger"]

My understanding is that PLC shares have to traded publicly - if not on the Stcok Exchange, other finacial markets (the AIM?). The Smiths own (according to others on the website - I don''t know) 61% of shares.

If Cullam were to buy a significant proportion of the rest he would have to be in a much stronger position to push for an issue of new shares. If the board refused a new issue even loyalists like me would begin to wonder.

[/quote]Basically if you wanted to buy shares you can. To buy enough shares to have influence on the board you would need to purchase the shares off someone but off of who? I have shares but they really mean diddly squat whether that''s my vote at the AGM or my dividend cheques I''ve never bothered cashing because I don''t have enough. Will enough fans sell their shares to give Cullum the influence? Even if they did as The Smiths are majority share holders what they say goes in the end really.Davo

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