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NMTD

Flags - the truth about Health and Safety

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Quote from Pinkun article :

At the most recent match at Watford on Saturday, and at the beam back of the same match to Carrow Road, hundreds of fans had unofficial promotion merchandise.

Last night, Hoy repeated warnings that fans could have certain items confiscated if they tried to bring them into Carrow Road or any other ground.

He said: "We can guarantee that every item sold by us has been checked to meet health and safety standards. Anything that doesn''t meet those standards could be confiscated."

In the absence of clear instructions regarding flags in particular I decided to do a little research.

I rang the Health & Safety Executive and got the response that they issue no standard for flags or their use in stadia - they suggested I rang the DTI regarding product safety regulations which I duly did, and again there were no regulations regarding flags. The DTI suggested I rang Trading Standards and following a third call, surprise surprise there are not even any manufacturing standards required for flags other than the most general standard that they have to be safe for consumer use.

Arsenal have been trying to encourage flags at the ground and issued the following statement regarding a recent ''flag day''.

''Due to health and safety regulations, the flags that fans bring into the ground can be no bigger than one metre square and the sticks no thicker than an average pencil.''

The ''unofficial'' Norwich flags sold at Watford are 90cm x 60cm - and the stick is thinner than a pencil.

By comparison - the official flags sold at the Millennium Stadium for the playoff final are 100cm x 70cm - and the stick is slightly thinker than the ones sold at Watford but still ''pencil like''.

So we should be ok then...

I then thought - hang on what about the MOTD flag and the Jarrold Stand flag - umm - so size doesn''t matter then - honestly girls it doesn''t :-)

Can our flags spontaneously ignite you may ask.

Well should you get quizzed re flammability say you''ve personally treated the cloth with this stuff http://www.fabricuk.com/fr/ and ask them to prove otherwise.

So unless you bring in an actively flaming rag the size of a yacht spinnaker fixed to a mast with a bayonet fitted to the end, what I have found is that there are NO SPECIFIC SAFETY REGULATIONS regarding flags - the clubs are just making it up and using H&S as an excuse to try and force you into thinking that you cannot take your non-official flag into the ground.

If you get challenged, ask Mr Hoy to produce documentation of the "health and safety standards" that means that you cannot take your flag into the ground - he won''t be able to - so just give him a cheery smile and carry on waving to your hearts content.

On the Ball City!

NMTD - Midday News - Hertfordshire

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Excellent Post,

While I am all for the club to protect brand identity and to make money through developing the brand what Mr. Hoy (and everyone else) should remember is that it is OUR club and if fans want to bring big flags etc to celebrate the return from the wilderness it is their decision. Likewise if we want to buy replica shirt that’s fine but if I want to wear a Stone Island top that is my decision. If someone however is selling fake merchandising then I can see why Mr. Hoy should get excited.

What I disliked was Mr. Hoy believing that we are all village idiots and that by quoting H&S law he can happily stop people celebrating the way they want. I think it is a clear breach of trust between the club and the fans and one that a board like this is right to highlight. As we move into the premiership and the much bigger commercial opportunities that lay ahead it is vital that the club remembers that the fundamental of success for NCFC is not between sponsors etc but that between club and fan.

Up the City!!

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NMTD. Did you manage to do this during work time? You must have a very understanding boss! Or did you tell him you were undertaking some Health and Safety research?

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Yes, well done on the research. I don''t like like to be ripped of by over-zealous marketing folk, I doubt you get many people in A+E with flag related injuries.

Although seeing as you have so much time on your hands could you sort out a parking ticket I got the other day, pesky Traffic Wardens? :]

p.s a note for the site monitors, can we get a selection of those little smiley faces to select from please like on football365''s message board? Cheers guys you''re doing a sterling job.

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You are right LC - thats exactly what they want.

You are quite correct in that they should be selling their merchadise on the basis that

a) its official
b) its good quality
c) profits to the club

If however people choose to buy unofficial merchadise because

a) it was produced first or
b) its cheaper

then thats their choice.

I dont care whether someone buys official or unofficial, it is after all personal choice, but I think that it is VERY petty of the club to say that the unofficial merchadise cannot be brought into the ground on Health & Safety grounds when that is just a pathetic scaremongering tactic to get people to buy official and no regulations or standards actually exist - other than ''safe for public use'' - particularly in the case of flags.

When we''ve forked out time and time again for our club, for merchadise (and face it - we spend 100''s times more on official than unofficial), shares, season tickets, away matches it is more than a little rich for the club to take this attitude. After all - we''re all going to do it again next season aren''t we?

It smacks a little of out and out greed by the club - if I were you City, I''d just promote your own merchadise and keep quiet about this ''one off'' situation. We''ve supported the club all the way and this argument is just plain poor PR by the club. Of course the club has the right to protect its trademarks etc but good grief - the more green and yellow there is around the better and ultimately it will lead to higher sales for the club anyway.

If you''ve got a HCUK T-shirt, a promotion T-shirt / flag from Watford, or a scarf knitted by your granny - wear them and wave them with pride - they really can''t stop you.

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Kathy

At the moment I am my own boss so to speak - as the computer software business I am a partner in is not doing so well.

Whilst this gives me plenty of time to post on here its not exactly doing the family finances much good.

It was quite funny when I rang H&S and DTI - they took me very seriously. For Trading Standards, I actually had to give my name/address and when asked why I was calling I said I was doing some journalistic research into Stadia regulations / sport merchadising - well I was!!

If anyone out there knows anyone who needs a top notch (Canary supporting!) Data Expert/ SQL Server consultant please let me know! Maybe I could sort out the tech probs on the msg board!

Hopefully my situation will be remedied shortly one way or the other - I have an interview tomorrow - wish me luck!

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However whilst I agree with the sentiments echoed above regarding the flags you also have to remember that the ground is the private property of the club and as such you can only go in with their permission. If they don''t want to let you in because you are carrying an unofficial flag then they can probably stop you from doing so (although they might have a riot on their hands!) just as they can stop you going into areas of the ground in the oppositions colours

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Excellent work NMTD it would appear Mr Hoy and the club are telling porkies. However, Jim has opened the door onto the murky worlds of contract law and occupier''s liability.

A contract is formed between you and the club when you buy a ticket. In return for your hard-earned you are granted access to watch the lads play subject to the Terms and Conditions on the ticket. I don''t have a ticket with me at the moment to verify these terms but Im sure one of you has. It would be interesting to know if there is anything concerning the steward''s right to confiscate offensive items (the stewards could argue this point about flags) or not affecting anyone else''s view of the pitch which a flag clearly would. There may be a general term that covers the issue.

The owner/occupier of any piece of land has a general duty of care towards anyone on that land (even Binners) to see that they do not come to any harm and probably to go so far as to ensure their time on the land is safe. The club could argue this point that everyone has a right to watch the match in physical safety but this is a tenuous point riding on whether a flag could be construed as a weapon. If a flag is a "weapon" then there should be no flags at all at the ground and this should be made clear at the turnstyles.

Then there are market forces. Naturally, as the street traders have fewer overheads they are able to offer cheaper merchandise than the club. People will always buy what they perceive as better value. In this case the club either did not stock the same products or theirs were more expensive. The club should not have a monopoly on Norwich City merchandise. They own the trademarks anyway so will always make money if there is a market by appealing to the quality end of the market with "official" products while the street traders deal in the cheaper end.

Im all for the club making money but I can understand why some people bought flags at Watford last week as they were caught in the moment and wanted to be part of something special. The club should stop being so petty over what is really only a small amount of money and not penalise those who are simply swept away by all the euphoria. Lets all stay one big happy family.

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Just bought an official "We Are Premier League" club flag for £5 to wave around like a fool on Saturday.

It''s only printed on one side, which is not so good. So I might check out the market to see if there are bigger and better ones. Anyone seen any decent unofficial flags in shops or market stalls?

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Dear God - this thread is way too heavy for me. Having said that I see no problem at all with the Club stating that they reserve the right to refuse certain articles being taken into the ground. Neither do I see a problem with the Club asking people only to buy "official" merchandise. Those who protest are probably the same people who copy CDs/DVDs rather than buy originals, and who buy skanky clothes rather than true branded items - still I guess it takes all sorts :-0]

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NMTD

mate, i nominate this as post of the year, you are brilliant, and i will be taking as much ''unofficial'' stuff in as i can

i will leave the official flag at home and take a watford one

i am the flammable one, stewards and H&S people, so don''t light my fire lol

on a serious note

for god''s sake, can we let this issue drop before our club turns into a laughing stock - what are they really worried about, the fact some of us bought unoffical merchandise - get real ncfc, why do you want to stop us celebrating, NMTD is right, what about that massive jarrolds flag, did that pass H&S regs?



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Oh dear me! I am in a right old state at this present time. Reason is, my great Aunt Paraphernalia has knitted me an absolutely divine Norwich City football scarf, made only from the finest parramatta fabric. It is unique, a splendid visual fashion statement, and my ultimate pride and joy! What is a supporter to do? If I were to have my 18 metres in total length, ''boa-contstrictor'' neckwear, confiscated by some fluorescent jacket wearing ''ruffian!'' whilst I am attempting to gain entry to the fabulous amphitheatre which is ''Carra Rud!''.

"Gadzook''s!" I realise that my scarf is sadly not of required "official merchandise issue," but it is non-flammable, as the 247 woodbine cigarette burns upon it, are testament to it''s fire retardent quality!
Am I to be denied and prohibited to adorn my gorgeous neck and torso with my Auntie''s manual dexterity created masterpiece?. Come, come, I am feeling despondent, why all this madness? Please someone in authority allow me some compassion! I will even soak the said banned woven work of art with my own bodily fluids before the game, to restrict it''s inadvertent ignition by generated static from my fellow supporter''s. Albeit, the aromatic stench will be somewhat ''strong'', but the fans around me will be comfortable and self-assured that I have taken the necessary steps to ensure that no careless combustion will occur.

But! in the event that those ruthless "Trojan''s of Terror!", who masquerade as supporter loving ''stewards'' feel the unwarranted desire to confiscate my beautiful scarf. I shall resort to "Plan B!" and therefore affix to my generous appendage, my ''Canary Cod-Piece!'' -see if the rotten blighter''s are able and brave enough to impound that from my personage!.............."Cheerio!" OTBC.

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Truly the best thread I''ve seen. Many congratulations NMTD. Through all of your sterling efforts during your research with H&S, DTI & Trading Standards, did you happen to see if they give a flammability rating, inherent flashpoint statement or corporate copyright ruling on an inflatable ''I Love Ewe'' sheep, bedecked with a city scarf, because thats what I''ll be taking with me for post match entertainment, if I can get her past the ''man in a jacket''
On the ball city!! Stumpy

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what about replica shirts, hardly the safest things to wear, what happens if someone next to me is smoking - have they passed the great H and s standards, i think we should be told

think i might stay at home - it''s safer - just the chance of setting the chip pan on fire then or tripping over the dog and falling through my back door (it''s glass)

or possibly answering the phone and being sold lots of double glazing

or a tree might fall on my house

i might get run over going to the shops

someone might mug me for my phone (or possibly my unofficial flag lol)

please, please, please, if anyone from the club can read this - just take a step back and remember what we are celebrating, we are there to cheer on our team, apparently the manager and the team rather like it, they don''t give a toss about what flag we have, what tops we wear or who we are

we are norwich, and proud of it, stop this petty official/unofficical flag stuff now, before you become arrogant

and then the world and the media will really know we have arrived in the premiership

we have bought bucket loads of stuff from the club shop - haven''t record sales been announced? So someone made up a few flags for watford, big deal, they were first, didn''t hear anyone complaining about them there, stop this two faced hypocrisy, oh suited ones and get a life

and you won''t get my flag off me when i come into the ground, not where i''ll be hiding it lol

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I would n''t spend five pounds of my own money on a flag which
probably cost 50 pence to manufacture -but hey that is entrepeurialism for you
all credit to those who stood outside vicerage road and sold them.

When we arrived in the ground just before three the view was breathtaking and the
flags no doubt added to the visage.

Someone gave me flag after we left - a late wedding present - it shredded after being hung out of the window all the way up the m11 but on closer inspection the way the bootleggers have avoided breaking copywright law is commendable

norwich - NOT NORWICH CITY
a canary - NOT A CANARY SITTING ON A BALL
premier division - NOT THE PREMIERSHIP



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Stumpy - your ok with your inflateable "I Love Ewe" plastic sheep as long as you wear "protection" for the post match celebrations"!

Whilst we''re on about copyright and official merchadise - here''s another little gem for you all.

Just ask the club when they started calling the mascot and selling merchandise as "Captain Canary", and then ask them if they think that they own the copyright.

Then, for those of you old enough that may still have a copy lying around, take a look at some of the "Never Mind The Danger" fanzines produced in the late 80''s and see if you can spot a certain cartoon character that I invented.....

Now I''m not saying I''d do anything about this "oversight" but....

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