Decline of our dream

[Arthur Whittle 0]

After a poor display all round in the derby game sunday and a distinct lack of passion, I think it emphacises the importance that this board needs to seriously consider there options if if they are not prepared to give Roeder funds this summer. Too many loan players, only equals one thing. They have no long term future with the club so dont put in as much effort as the contrated players. The likes of Gibbs are poor short term soloutions. Delia and co have let us down for 4 seasons running now and if its not to become a 5th then this is there last chance to get it right. The defeat underlined how much this team is lacking The board have sold off all the players of any value, and selling to raise funds is no longer an option. We have slipped fom a premiership team to a team struggling at the bottom of the chapionship and its the same as any business, the buck stops at the top. If they cant invest then they sould sell up. We all appreciate their efforts but the possibility of a 5th season in decline is simply not acceptable. The great Geoffry Watling said "the club were asset rich, but cash poor" it seems nothing has changed under Delia and co since the Chase era and they have not learned a thing from their mistakes, and this claim is backed up by the teams poor position. The Turners "investment" was supposed to prevent player sales and allow us to spend, but yet again the assests were sold and replaced on the cheap, what is the point of the Turners? their role seems to be non existent. How long are the supporters of our great club going to be content on sitting on comfy seats in a wonderful stadium whilst less supoorted clubs with worse facilities continually play us off the park and flourish in the league?-and yes i include our friends in Suffolk!

 

[Carlos Valderrama 0]

I agree.  While I may not be quite as anti-board as you I also think this is the make or break summer.

I think the board now have a man they can trust to spend big money and he needs it.  I am happy to accept that we spent nothing in January through choice, I dont necessarily agree it was the right thing to do but I can accept it.  We can''t afford to do the same this summer.

So roll on June, then we can see the true worth of the Turners and Delia can start to go some way to redeeming herself.

First things first though, we have got to stay up yet!! 

[Show Me What You Gooot! 0]

If the Turners are being affected by the credit crunch (which they are) then surely they should be concentrating on sorting their own affairs out first before occupying seats on the board of another company. I''m grateful for the loan which I''m sure has helped out somewhere, the trouble is its another loan. We''ve got enough debt as it is.

We''ve at long last managed to pick ourselves the best manager a club in our current position can get. Lets please back him with proper money. PG was given a decent kitty and he squandered it (even holding some of it back too). Glenn has a good eye for players (in most cases anyway) so give him the funds and he will find us a winning team.

[blahblahblah 2]

[quote]Too many loan players, only equals one thing. They have no long term future with the club so dont put in as much effort as the contrated players. The likes of Gibbs are poor short term soloutions.[/quote]

Loans - as fellas pointed out in his excellent post here, loans are a fact of life at this level now.  I''ve had a quick scan through fellas figures, and counted 92 loans in this division, that''s about 4 loans per club.  The thing is that there seems to be 3 types of player available to championship clubs :

• 25 year old + players, solid club professionals, who for whatever reason, probably a lack of pace, will never play in the Premiership, tend not to move clubs very often.
• Younger players who have yet to prove themselves for their Premiership team, and go out to championship clubs on loan to get experience.
• Rough diamonds from league 1 and lower.  Competition is high for these players - hence 20k a week for Luke Varney, and our failed 2 million pound bid for Billy Sharp.  Both players were purchased by teams with parachute payments.  Between them they have scored about 10 goals in the league this season.

Anyone who has had 15 seconds of fame on Sky Sports News now resides in a Premiership squad - why ?  Because the financial gap is now so large between Premiership and Championship, and there are no limits on squad sizes, which means that there are better squads turning out for some Premiership reserve matches than Championship matches. 

As an example of this - David Cotterill cost Wigan 2 million pounds last season, he has played 18 matches for them, and scored 1 goal.  He''s now on loan to Sheffield United because he can''t get into Wigans'' first team (hmm, 12 games, no goals while at Sheff U, lucky escape for us ? ).  That''s just how it is now.

The fact is that the loans were brought in January as a pragmatic solution, taken by the manager, who said he was completely happy with the support the board gave him, to a short term problem. You seem to have forgotten how badly adrift we were before Roeder arrived.  Roeders average of about 1.5 points per game is a play-off contention average.    Once we get to the close-season break, Roeder can look to build a squad, but there was no point spending a lot of cash in January in a sellers'' market, when Scunthorpes'' striker was valued at 5 million pounds, to build a team for a mid-table finish.

[quote]The board sold off players of any value[/quote]

No - they left of their own accord.  You fail to recognise that players have the upper hand in any negotiations in the modern era.

 

[Citizen Journalist Foghorn 0]

[quote user="blahblahblah"]

[quote]Too many loan players, only equals one thing. They have no long term future with the club so dont put in as much effort as the contrated players. The likes of Gibbs are poor short term soloutions.[/quote]

The fact is that the loans were brought in January as a pragmatic solution, taken by the manager, who said he was completely happy with the support the board gave him, to a short term problem. You seem to have forgotten how badly adrift we were before Roeder arrived.  Roeders average of about 1.5 points per game is a play-off contention average.    Once we get to the close-season break, Roeder can look to build a squad, but there was no point spending a lot of cash in January in a sellers'' market, when Scunthorpes'' striker was valued at 5 million pounds, to build a team for a mid-table finish.

[/quote]

The problem with loans is next season Premiership benches will be seven strong.  This will severely deplete the availability and quality of loan players with potentially 40 current loan players still needed by their clubs...

As for the championship generally, as you say, any player with even a hint of ability is snapped up by the premiership clubs.  There aint much quality left in the lower leagues.  I''m not sure how much a big budget is going to help in future.  Just looking at the top scorers chart these days, how many of them would do a job in the premiership now..

[YellowIce 0]

[quote user="blahblahblah"]

    Once we get to the close-season break, Roeder can look to build a squad, but there was no point spending a lot of cash in January in a sellers'' market, when Scunthorpes'' striker was valued at 5 million pounds, to build a team for a mid-table finish.

[/quote]

Billy Sharp was sold for a high price when Scunny were coming up -  i wonder how much we will bid for Pattison now they are going down? also will the player / club give us preferential interest if we match the highest bid dur to our ongoing interest?

[Salopian 1]

We need money to buy some good players, and we need several players. Loan players are not enough - some do really try, like Ched or Bertrand,  because they want to make an impact and promotion at their home clubs, but they lack experience.I think that it will be a long process yet, even if we do survive relegation. I can''t see the board finding enough money to build another team quickly from scratch, and while there will be Bowmans sometime these disappoint (Brellier). Worthington, and to a lesser extent Grant, spent enormous sums, but we have been in decline.Our present plight is disturbing. The only slight ray of hope is that at last the youth set-up seems to be producing the goods - we have two highly promising young goalkeepers, and Daley, Renton and Lathrope are all highly thought of. If only Martin and Spillane could get their act together and come good, we could have a local nucleus to be reinforced by imported players. But perhaps I am whistling in the wind?

[blahblahblah 2]

[quote]We need money to buy some good players, and we need several players. Loan players are not enough - some do really try, like Ched or Bertrand,  because they want to make an impact and promotion at their home clubs, but they lack experience.[/quote]

Where do these experienced players come from ? 

Probably not from the Premiership, as if they''re good enough to be on the fringes of the first team they will generally try to fight for their place.

Almost certainly not from the Championship, unless they''ve had personal issues with the manager, or unless we offer them huge sums of cash, e.g. David Norris money.

Maybe we can find another Dublin / Hucks / Cureton or 2, but players with the footballing brain and mental toughness of Dublin are few and far between, and older players tend to have less time fully match fit.

I guess the best hope is to import players from abroad, as in Velasco ?  Even then we''re still just a stepping stone to a Premiership contract...

 

[Charles 0]

Excellent  post Arthur. It is high time the board back Roeder with an acceptable transfer kitty in the summer to start competing in the top half of the league and push for next years play offs. I''m not naive enough to think we will compete with some teams financially within the league, however with the facilities, fan base and assets this club has, backing the manager is a must!!! I''m also wondering what input the Turners are going to make...its all very well joining the board and waxing lyrical with Delia and co but if they aren''t going to spend some of their millions ( and not continual loans) then they might aswell leave!!!

[Shack Attack 0]

I don''t agree that there''s a lack of passion or that the loan players don''t put in as much effort as the ones who are here long term. If you do that you get a reputation as a trouble maker and you risk your career. I''ve seen games where players haven''t been 100% committed and they''re very easy to spot. Thankfully it''s a rarity but I think sometimes fans use it when they can''t explain why their team is underperforming, it''s almost an easy way out. Our problem is not alack of passion, more a lack of ability.One thing for certain is that there will be loan players here again next season, just as there will be at every other Championship club. Fellas started a very interesting thread a couple of weeks ago where the use of loan players was debated. I said then that I don''t think you should look at them as loans these days as they''re more like short term transfers, and I stand by that. I don''t think Roeder will be looking to get as many loan players in as we have now but I wouldn''t be surprised if we got three or four again. After that the hard work starts and we''ll find out just how much money the board are backing Roeder with. My suspicion is that it won''t be the huge amounts some are demanding but that you might be pleasantly surprised and find out just "what is the point of the Turners?".I''ve got a problem with this part of your post Arthur [quote user="Arthur Whittle"]

How long are the supporters of our great club going to be content on sitting on comfy seats in a wonderful stadium whilst less supoorted clubs with worse facilities continually play us off the park and flourish in the league?-and yes i include our friends in Suffolk!

 

[/quote]You want the board to abandon their off field spending and concentrate on team building but then use the facilities of other teams to determine whether you think we should be finishing above them.

[Arthur Whittle 0]

[quote user="Shack Attack"]I don''t agree that there''s a lack of passion or that the loan players don''t put in as much effort as the ones who are here long term. If you do that you get a reputation as a trouble maker and you risk your career. I''ve seen games where players haven''t been 100% committed and they''re very easy to spot. Thankfully it''s a rarity but I think sometimes fans use it when they can''t explain why their team is underperforming, it''s almost an easy way out. Our problem is not alack of passion, more a lack of ability.

One thing for certain is that there will be loan players here again next season, just as there will be at every other Championship club. Fellas started a very interesting thread a couple of weeks ago where the use of loan players was debated. I said then that I don''t think you should look at them as loans these days as they''re more like short term transfers, and I stand by that. I don''t think Roeder will be looking to get as many loan players in as we have now but I wouldn''t be surprised if we got three or four again. After that the hard work starts and we''ll find out just how much money the board are backing Roeder with. My suspicion is that it won''t be the huge amounts some are demanding but that you might be pleasantly surprised and find out just "what is the point of the Turners?".

I''ve got a problem with this part of your post Arthur

[quote user="Arthur Whittle"]

How long are the supporters of our great club going to be content on sitting on comfy seats in a wonderful stadium whilst less supoorted clubs with worse facilities continually play us off the park and flourish in the league?-and yes i include our friends in Suffolk!

 

[/quote]

You want the board to abandon their off field spending and concentrate on team building but then use the facilities of other teams to determine whether you think we should be finishing above them.
[/quote]

Its as much of a dig at the likes of yourself for continuanally supporting the board and nothing to do with other clubs facilities. The hole point i''m making is the fact the football side of things dont count for jack at CR. I''d be more than happy watching my FOOTBALL at the likes of a ram-shackle ground like Aston gate if it meant we were in there position.

[Dizzy Rascal 0]

[quote user="blahblahblah"]Younger players who have yet to prove themselves for their Premiership team, and go out to championship clubs on loan to get experience.[/quote]I don''t mind Roeder loaning in some good players, but I think the current crop are a too young and inexperienced. It''s ok to have one, maybe two young bloods on loan, but remember in 2003-2004 we got Peter Crouch, Matthias Svensson and of course Darren Huckerby on loan. All were mid to late 20s and all contributed greatly to our success. I''d like to see more loan deals of this ilk, of course we have Mo Camara (who is likely to sign permanently?), but it would be great to get more potentially hidden gems on loan next season.

[Shack Attack 0]

[quote user="Arthur Whittle"]

Its as much of a dig at the likes of yourself for continuanally supporting the board and nothing to do with other clubs facilities. The hole point i''m making is the fact the football side of things dont count for jack at CR. I''d be more than happy watching my FOOTBALL at the likes of a ram-shackle ground like Aston gate if it meant we were in there position.

[/quote]

Fair enough Arthur it didn''t read like that to me but I see what you mean. I don''t know where you''ve got the idea that I''m "continually supporting the board" though. Then again spotting the grey areas of any argument has never been your strong point.

[Citizen Journalist Foghorn 0]

As I wrote on another thread I don''t think passion and motivation was the problem, across the middle the likes of Huckerby, Cureton, russell and Pattisson are passionate players.  IMO an inadequate system didnt help, with Cureton doing nothing at right wing meaning it was more like 10 versus 11.  Apart from that with no ball player in midfield we resorted to hoofing it up the pitch.  With no central midfielder making themselves available for the ball the full backs repeatedly got caught dallying with noone to pass too.

On top of the poor squad selection, individual players had nightmares. Bertrand had his worst game in the shirt, Semi was not much better, Cureton didnt get a touch, Pearce was torn apart, Pattison and Russell proved once again they CANNOT play together in the centre, and Dion was dreadful.  Hucks seemed quicker to go to ground than attempt to cross or beat a man....

All in all a dreadful day at the office from manager and squad alike.

[renegade tootsie 0]

Er, didn''t we lose 2-1 with an own goal the difference?  You make it sound like we got stuffed 10-0.

[quote user="Citizen Journalist Foghorn"]

As I wrote on another thread I don''t think passion and motivation was the problem, across the middle the likes of Huckerby, Cureton, russell and Pattisson are passionate players.  IMO an inadequate system didnt help, with Cureton doing nothing at right wing meaning it was more like 10 versus 11.  Apart from that with no ball player in midfield we resorted to hoofing it up the pitch.  With no central midfielder making themselves available for the ball the full backs repeatedly got caught dallying with noone to pass too.

On top of the poor squad selection, individual players had nightmares. Bertrand had his worst game in the shirt, Semi was not much better, Cureton didnt get a touch, Pearce was torn apart, Pattison and Russell proved once again they CANNOT play together in the centre, and Dion was dreadful.  Hucks seemed quicker to go to ground than attempt to cross or beat a man....

All in all a dreadful day at the office from manager and squad alike.

[/quote]

[Citizen Journalist Foghorn 0]

[quote user="JC"]

Er, didn''t we lose 2-1 with an own goal the difference?  You make it sound like we got stuffed 10-0

[/quote]

I take it you didn''t go....

[Tumbleweed 106]

Regarding facilities I think the investment has been sensible as the ground is a decent place to watch football now, has a higher capacity and in the long term generates more revenue. I think its one reason why its so full every week- many people are not happy to watch from a dilapidated stand and wouldn''t come back. So I think that money has been well spent.

I agree this summer will be critical. Roeder has a lot of rebuilding to do and one wonders how he is going to achieve it all by August. I don''t think we have ever seen a situation like this before at CR. The big worry is that it ends up being arepeat of the NW season after relegation when squad members were virtually introducing themselves as they ran out onto the pitch. Generally evolution works better than revolution.

The other priority to me is to get the youth system producing more, in the past we have had a good blend of experienced pros and younger players who can be blooded from the youth team. Over recent years however only Robert Green has come through is a big way. If we can''t compete with clubs which have benefactors we must plough resource, coaches and time into the academy and generate our own pipeline of quality youngsters with the right attitude. they will supplement the senior squad and potentially become saleable assets.

[Mr.Carrow 394]

[quote user="Salopian"]We need money to buy some good players, and we need several players. Loan players are not enough - some do really try, like Ched or Bertrand,  because they want to make an impact and promotion at their home clubs, but they lack experience.

I think that it will be a long process yet, even if we do survive relegation. I can''t see the board finding enough money to build another team quickly from scratch, and while there will be Bowmans sometime these disappoint (Brellier). Worthington, and to a lesser extent Grant, spent enormous sums, but we have been in decline.

Our present plight is disturbing. The only slight ray of hope is that at last the youth set-up seems to be producing the goods - we have two highly promising young goalkeepers, and Daley, Renton and Lathrope are all highly thought of. If only Martin and Spillane could get their act together and come good, we could have a local nucleus to be reinforced by imported players. But perhaps I am whistling in the wind?
[/quote]

If Worthington and Grant spent "enormous sums" how is it that we started this season with a squad which cost about the same as that which got to the play-off final and promotion?  And that`s after two seasons in which the club received £14.2m parachute payments and £18m in player sales.  And the board told us "all money received in transfers is available to be re-invested".  Can we please lay this ridiculous myth to rest,  the team has been used as a cash-cow to pay for various off-pitch projects since relegation and it is still ongoing.