The softening up has begun

[Citizen Journalist Foghorn 0]

[quote user="YankeeCanary"]

Despite the Crouch purchase yielding Southampton a good profit when he moved on, it didn''t seem to help them achieving any better results in maintaining league position superiority versus Norwich. Also, financially, they seem to be in worse shape than we are. They must be like a lot of other clubs ( like Norwich ) and not have conducted sufficient on-pitch investment. I wonder why when, according to some, it''s such a no brainer. When taking into account the 20 million pound + that Southampton yielded from the sale of Crouch, Theo Walcott and Kenwyne Jones alone, it almost makes Norwich look "saintly" in comparison.      

[/quote]Southampton were also in the difficult situation of having been relegated from the premiership after a long stint, much higher wages based on many years of Premiership income. rather than just a single season of failure like NCFC.  As for how well Crouch did, he was excellent for Southampton  16 goals in 24(9) games, hence why Liverpool paid 8 million for him, perhaps the striking department wasnt the main problem in their side.

[nutty nigel 7,533]

[quote user="GazzaTCC"]but Worthy''s "dream team" to get us promoted straight back was Louis-Jean, Colin, Jarrett, Hughes and Thorne, with Marney on loan.

Hardly inspiring is it?   

[/quote]

That''s the worst example of spin I have seen on here for sometime GazzaTCC. Those were players he bolted onto a squad which had kept Ashton, Charlton, Doherty, Drury, Fleming, Green, Huckerby, McKenzie, Safri and Shackell amongst others.

 

[GMF 738]

[quote user="nutty nigel"][quote user="GazzaTCC"]but Worthy''s "dream team" to get us promoted straight back was Louis-Jean, Colin, Jarrett, Hughes and Thorne, with Marney on loan.

Hardly inspiring is it?   

[/quote]

That''s the worst example of spin I have seen on here for sometime GazzaTCC. Those were players he bolted onto a squad which had kept Ashton, Charlton, Doherty, Drury, Fleming, Green, Huckerby, McKenzie, Safri and Shackell amongst others.

 

[/quote]

Hardly bolted ons! The Premeirship squad lost Edworthy, Holt, Brennan, Svennson and Francis. This excludes Helveg and Jonson (both of whom I never expected to last beyond the Premiership) and you''re ignoring the fact that Ashton had actually "thrown his toys out of the pram by the start of the season.

If you think they''re like for like replacements, then we''ll just have to agree to differ.

[nutty nigel 7,533]

Hardly fact!

Edworthy and Helveg were replaced by Colin and MLJ. Holt was spent and finished at this level and was replaced by Hughes. Brennan was still at the club and in fact made 21 appearances that season. Svennson got a wonderful offer from a club in his homeland and a contract that I don''t believe any English club would have matched, he was replaced by Thorne. I guess Jonson was replaced with Jarrett and Bentley with Marney. Of these Hughes and Jarrett proved to be poor signings. Injuries meant we never really found out about Thorne, MLJ and Marney. Different people have different views on Colin, my view is he was defensively better than Otsemebor but poorer going forward. It was Francis who threw his toys out of the pram after Worthy planned his midfield to include him, he was still playing for us a few days before the season started. Francis proved difficult to replace and we finally got Etuhu but he was never fit enough to do himself justice until the following season. Where as Ashton played 30 games for us that season scoring 11 goals.

I still maintain that the squad Worthy believed he had at his disposal at the start of 2005/6 was better than the one that won the Championship. Unfortunately things didn''t work out. And that''s the whole uncertainty of football, nobody can be sure how things will work out.

 

[Mello Yello 2,289]

And that''s the whole uncertainty of football, nobody can be sure how things will work out.

Is that an opinion......or a fact?

[nutty nigel 7,533]

What do you think Mello?

You''re cleverer than the rest with words. Can it be both?

Let''s try prove it together. I think Hull will win the play-offs are you sticking with Watford?

 

[Mello Yello 2,289]

[quote user="nutty nigel"]

What do you think Mello?

You''re cleverer than the rest with words. Can it be both?

Let''s try prove it together. I think Hull will win the play-offs are you sticking with Watford?

 

[/quote]

Yes, let''s.....I''ll give my opinion 2 minutes after the play-offs have finished.....and then it''ll be a ''fact''.....OK?

[nutty nigel 7,533]

I''ve changed my mind now anyway!

Who will get promoted first [:^)] Norwich [sn] or Leicester [sn][sn]

 

[Mello Yello 2,289]

[quote user="nutty nigel"]

I''ve changed my mind now anyway!

Who will get promoted first [:^)] Norwich [sn] or Leicester [sn][sn]

 

[/quote]

Er......Kings Lynn?[:|]

[Mason 47 1,379]

Im going to beat you both to it with a team of super llamas

All they need is work permits...

[nutty nigel 7,533]

[quote user="Mello Yello"][quote user="nutty nigel"]

I''ve changed my mind now anyway!

Who will get promoted first [:^)] Norwich [sn] or Leicester [sn][sn]

 

[/quote]

Er......Kings Lynn?[:|]

[/quote]

But Hull are cleverer than the rest........ [:-*]

 

[BlyBlyBabes 0]

[quote user="nutty nigel"][quote user="Mello Yello"][quote user="nutty nigel"]

I''ve changed my mind now anyway!

Who will get promoted first [:^)] Norwich [sn] or Leicester [sn][sn]

[/quote]

Er......Kings Lynn?[:|]

[/quote]

But Hull are cleverer than the rest........ [:-*]

[/quote]

Well, I don''t suppose you''re interested but I''m putting sixpence on Lowestoft; and risking thruppence on Gorleston since I hear that Jimmy Jones is still around. 

All bets are off though if the NCFC board resigns.[:^)]

OTBC

 

[Citizen Journalist Foghorn 0]

[quote user="nutty nigel"]

Hardly fact!

Edworthy and Helveg were replaced by Colin and MLJ. Holt was spent and finished at this level and was replaced by Hughes. Brennan was still at the club and in fact made 21 appearances that season. Svennson got a wonderful offer from a club in his homeland and a contract that I don''t believe any English club would have matched, he was replaced by Thorne. I guess Jonson was replaced with Jarrett and Bentley with Marney. Of these Hughes and Jarrett proved to be poor signings. Injuries meant we never really found out about Thorne, MLJ and Marney. Different people have different views on Colin, my view is he was defensively better than Otsemebor but poorer going forward. It was Francis who threw his toys out of the pram after Worthy planned his midfield to include him, he was still playing for us a few days before the season started. Francis proved difficult to replace and we finally got Etuhu but he was never fit enough to do himself justice until the following season. Where as Ashton played 30 games for us that season scoring 11 goals.

I still maintain that the squad Worthy believed he had at his disposal at the start of 2005/6 was better than the one that won the Championship. Unfortunately things didn''t work out. And that''s the whole uncertainty of football, nobody can be sure how things will work out.

 

[/quote]Hughes was no Holt.  Doherty was no Mackay, Shax has been poor generally, colin was no edworthy.  Drury 05/06 wasn''t a patch on Drury 03/04  Was right wing ever sorted?   As for Ashton he seemed to give up after QPR away.   Midfield and defense were a general shambles.  Colin was very poor to start off with, he improved second season and was just poor.

[nutty nigel 7,533]

[quote user="Citizen Journalist Foghorn"]

Hughes was no Holt.  Doherty was no Mackay, Shax has been poor generally, colin was no edworthy.  Drury 05/06 wasn''t a patch on Drury 03/04  Was right wing ever sorted?   As for Ashton he seemed to give up after QPR away.   Midfield and defense were a general shambles.  Colin was very poor to start off with, he improved second season and was just poor.
[/quote]

At the risk of repeating myself all I was saying was that I believe the squad that Worthy thought he had at his disposal in August 05/06 was better than that of 03/04. Your points about Drury playing worse or Ashton giving up just prove the point that nobody can be sure how things will work out. Did you expect those things to happen CJF? Weren''t you just a little bit surprised how they worked out? Did you predict it? I don''t think so and neither did the bookies who made us favourites to go back up.

 

[Mr.Carrow 376]

Also i believe we actually started that season with a central defender as first-choice central midfielder due to lack of numbers.  We sold Jonsson for £1m but never bothered to replace him with a proper right-winger and of course didn`t replace Ashton with a target man when he left.  To be fair our first-choice 11 that season was good enough for the play-offs but i said at the time that you have to expect and plan for lots of injuries in this league and we were virtually crippled once 3-4 were crocked.  If people actually think Worthy had more money but wouldn`t spend it, i would just remind them how the club struggled to raise £50k to sign Robinson.  Football has not been the priority in recent years and i really don`t know how much more evidence people need to wake up to the fact.

[nutty nigel 7,533]

[quote user="BlyBlyBabes"]

Well, I don''t suppose you''re interested

[/quote]

Truest words you have ever spoke Babes [:|]

 

[BlyBlyBabes 0]

[quote user="nutty nigel"]

[quote user="Citizen Journalist Foghorn"]

Hughes was no Holt.  Doherty was no Mackay, Shax has been poor generally, colin was no edworthy.  Drury 05/06 wasn''t a patch on Drury 03/04  Was right wing ever sorted?   As for Ashton he seemed to give up after QPR away.   Midfield and defense were a general shambles.  Colin was very poor to start off with, he improved second season and was just poor.
[/quote]

At the risk of repeating myself all I was saying was that I believe the squad that Worthy thought he had at his disposal in August 05/06 was better than that of 03/04. Your points about Drury playing worse or Ashton giving up just prove the point that nobody can be sure how things will work out. Did you expect those things to happen CJF? Weren''t you just a little bit surprised how they worked out? Did you predict it? I don''t think so and neither did the bookies who made us favourites to go back up.

[/quote]

But, as a spinner, you frequently repeat yourself.

So, there''s really no risk at all you see nigel.

OTBC

 

 

[BlyBlyBabes 0]

[quote user="nutty nigel"][quote user="BlyBlyBabes"]

Well, I don''t suppose you''re interested [/quote]

Truest words you have ever spoke Babes [:|]

[/quote]

So why do you always reply? Almost compulsively, one would say.

[:#][;)]

OTBC

 

 

 

[Citizen Journalist Foghorn 0]

[quote user="nutty nigel"]

At the risk of repeating myself all I was saying was that I believe the squad that Worthy thought he had at his disposal in August 05/06 was better than that of 03/04. Your points about Drury playing worse or Ashton giving up just prove the point that nobody can be sure how things will work out. Did you expect those things to happen CJF? Weren''t you just a little bit surprised how they worked out? Did you predict it? I don''t think so and neither did the bookies who made us favourites to go back up.

[/quote]

The bookies always make those teams that come down Favorites to go back up....  I thought we would do better than we did, I didn''t realise how much of a shambles Worthington had created.

[Citizen Journalist Foghorn 0]

But I do feel Worthington had his hands tied funds-wise.  (and signed incredibly poorly post promotion with cloggers like Hooves, Bobinson, Eboohoo, Jarrett, MLJ, Colin, the ageing Thorne, Charlton, Doherty, Jonson, Gallacher, Lisbie, Boyle, Stuart and co all failing for our club.

[Desi Rascall 0]

[quote user="Citizen Journalist Foghorn"]But I do feel Worthington had his hands tied funds-wise.  (and signed incredibly poorly post promotion with cloggers like Hooves, Bobinson, Eboohoo, Jarrett, MLJ, Colin, the ageing Thorne, Charlton, Doherty, Jonson, Gallacher, Lisbie, Boyle, Stuart and co all failing for our club.[/quote]

Correct me if i am wrong,CJF but wasn''t that the Season worthington delayed starting transfer activity until after his summer holiday? in retrospect we have been playing catch up ever since.

[Citizen Journalist Foghorn 0]

[quote user=" Desi Rascall"]

Correct me if i am wrong,CJF but wasn''t that the Season Worthington delayed starting transfer activity until after his summer holiday? in retrospect we have been playing catch up ever since.

[/quote]

I beleive so, the likes of Neil Warnock had already signed players like Right Winger Paul Ifill and forward Danny Webber before we had even started looking....

Lilian Nalis	Leicester	Free	17-05-2005
Paul Ifill	Millwall	£ 800000	20-05-2005
Danny Webber	Watford	£ 500000	01-06-2005

Craig Short	Blackburn	Free	29-06-2005
Gary Mulligan	Wolves	Free	03-07-2005
Karl Nix	Aston Villa	Free	05-07-2005
Neil Shipperley	C Palace	Free	20-07-2005
Keith Gillespie	Leicester	Free	05-08-2005
David Unsworth	Portsmouth	Free	22-08-2005

Look away now if you don''t want to read this short but painful list:

Jason Jarrett

Wigan

Free

21-06-2005

Matthieu Louis-Jean	Nottm Forest	Signed	27-06-2005
Peter Thorne	Cardiff	Signed	01-07-2005
Jurgen Colin	PSV Eindhoven	£ 250000	21-07-2005
Andy Hughes	Reading	£ 550000	21-07-2005

[nutty nigel 7,533]

[quote user="Citizen Journalist Foghorn"]But I do feel Worthington had his hands tied funds-wise.  (and signed incredibly poorly post promotion with cloggers like Hooves, Bobinson, Eboohoo, Jarrett, MLJ, Colin, the ageing Thorne, Charlton, Doherty, Jonson, Gallacher, Lisbie, Boyle, Stuart and co all failing for our club.[/quote]

Most of this stuff is with hindsight. Worthy had no choice with the departures of Svennson and Francis. Francis went only a few days before the season started. Worthy made poor choices with Hughes and Jarrett but was unlucky with the injuries. However we did have a habit of signing injured players in his time because Thorne and MLJ careers followed that of Neil Emblen. Questions are there to be answered in this respect.

You are crazy if you believe Doherty has failed for our club. That comment and your inability to ever recognise anything good about our club sums you up I''m afraid. If you put a quick search into the archives of this message board you will see that most posters were pleased with the business that Worthy did in the summer of 2005 especially after we secured the loan of Dean Marney. It''s interesting that players like Lisbie make your list where as players like Marney don''t. What did Marney do for us that Lisbie didn''t. The idea that Lisbie is a poor player also sums you up I''m afraid.

 

[Citizen Journalist Foghorn 0]

[quote user="nutty nigel"]

You are crazy if you believe Doherty has failed for our club. That comment and your inability to ever recognise anything good about our club sums you up I''m afraid. If you put a quick search into the archives of this message board you will see that most posters were pleased with the business that Worthy did in the summer of 2005 especially after we secured the loan of Dean Marney. It''s interesting that players like Lisbie make your list where as players like Marney don''t. What did Marney do for us that Lisbie didn''t. The idea that Lisbie is a poor player also sums you up I''m afraid.

[/quote]

At a cost of near a million I beleive he failed miserably for what he was signed for - the premiership. Having said that he has faired better in this division and has probably been the most impressive of an exceedingly poor defense since relegation - not that that is saying much. 

Did I say Lisbie was a poor player? he didn''t do anything to impress during his short spell here however. He certainly has done well at Colchester, and certainly wasted almost his entire career sitting on Charlton''s bench and in their reserves. Who would beleive he is 30 this year, what an idiot.  As for Marney, he looked ok then got injured.

Thorne''s career didnt go the way of Neil Emblem....  what an idiotic comment Nutty.

[nutty nigel 7,533]

[quote user="Citizen Journalist Foghorn"]

Thorne''s career didnt go the way of Neil Emblem....  what an idiotic comment Nutty.

[/quote]

His Norwich career did and the point I was trying to make, maybe poorly, was that if there was a problem with signing these players it''s entirely possible IMO that in the case of those two and possibly MLJ that there were problems injury wise before they signed.

 

[GMF 738]

[quote user="nutty nigel"]

Hardly fact!

Edworthy and Helveg were replaced by Colin and MLJ. Holt was spent and finished at this level and was replaced by Hughes. Brennan was still at the club and in fact made 21 appearances that season. Svennson got a wonderful offer from a club in his homeland and a contract that I don''t believe any English club would have matched, he was replaced by Thorne. I guess Jonson was replaced with Jarrett and Bentley with Marney. Of these Hughes and Jarrett proved to be poor signings. Injuries meant we never really found out about Thorne, MLJ and Marney. Different people have different views on Colin, my view is he was defensively better than Otsemebor but poorer going forward. It was Francis who threw his toys out of the pram after Worthy planned his midfield to include him, he was still playing for us a few days before the season started. Francis proved difficult to replace and we finally got Etuhu but he was never fit enough to do himself justice until the following season. Where as Ashton played 30 games for us that season scoring 11 goals.

I still maintain that the squad Worthy believed he had at his disposal at the start of 2005/6 was better than the one that won the Championship. Unfortunately things didn''t work out. And that''s the whole uncertainty of football, nobody can be sure how things will work out.

 

[/quote]

If Worthy really believed he had a better squad than our promotion season, having regard to recent signings, that proves he really had "lost the plot" and should have been sacked way before he actually was!

 

[nutty nigel 7,533]

[quote user="GazzaTCC"]

If Worthy really believed he had a better squad than our promotion season, having regard to recent signings, that proves he really had "lost the plot" and should have been sacked way before he actually was![/quote]

2003/4                                     2005/6

Green                                       Green

Crighton                                   Ward

                                                Gallacher

Edworthy                                 MLJ

Briggs                                      Colin

Drury                                       Drury

Brennan                                   Brennan

Fleming                                    Fleming

MacKay                                  Doherty

Shackell                                  Shackell

Sinclair                                    Charlton

Francis                                    Francis

Holt                                        Hughes

Mulryne                                  Safri

Easton                                     Jarrett

Rivers                                     Marney

Henderson                             Henderson

McVeigh                               McVeigh

Huckerby                              Huckerby

Roberts                                 Ashton

Svensson                              Thorne

McKenzie                            McKenzie

Jarvis                                    Jarvis

 

 

[lucky green trainers 0]

[quote user=" Desi Rascall"]

[quote user="Citizen Journalist Foghorn"]But I do feel Worthington had his hands tied funds-wise.  (and signed incredibly poorly post promotion with cloggers like Hooves, Bobinson, Eboohoo, Jarrett, MLJ, Colin, the ageing Thorne, Charlton, Doherty, Jonson, Gallacher, Lisbie, Boyle, Stuart and co all failing for our club.[/quote]

Correct me if i am wrong,CJF but wasn''t that the Season worthington delayed starting transfer activity until after his summer holiday? in retrospect we have been playing catch up ever since.

[/quote]in contrast coppell had already got lita and little in,  and unearthed a gem in doyle - completing his team jigsaw.  as had warnock at sheff utd.  earlier the better, if you have the money to spend.  certainly, hanging on until the last minute is not ideal for obvious reasons!!!

[lucky green trainers 0]

[quote user="nutty nigel"][quote user="GazzaTCC"]

If Worthy really believed he had a better squad than our promotion season, having regard to recent signings, that proves he really had "lost the plot" and should have been sacked way before he actually was![/quote]

2003/4                                     2005/6

Green                                       Green

Crighton                                   Ward

                                                Gallacher

Edworthy                                 MLJ

Briggs                                      Colin

Drury                                       Drury

Brennan                                   Brennan

Fleming                                    Fleming

MacKay                                  Doherty

Shackell                                  Shackell

Sinclair                                    Charlton

Francis                                    Francis

Holt                                        Hughes

Mulryne                                  Safri

Easton                                     Jarrett

Rivers                                     Marney

Henderson                             Henderson

McVeigh                               McVeigh

Huckerby                              Huckerby

Roberts                                 Ashton

Svensson                              Thorne

McKenzie                            McKenzie

Jarvis                                    Jarvis

 

 

[/quote]evening nutty - you''ve left out crouch and kept francis in.  also - probably fair to include the numerous loanees brought in by worthy in our first season back in the champs for balance.  but certainly, the midfield duo of francis and holt were simply a powerhouse in the promotion winning team.  as was the partnership of flem and malky.  by contrast, the dislocated pairings that followed in our season back, were just not consistent or good enough.  admittedly, the doc had a reasonable first season back, but flem was already losing it by then.  drury didn''t look the same, colin was no edworthy, it could be argued that doc was comparable to malky - but has he ever forged a commanding partnership with anyone??? while flem looked shot to bits 2nd time around - shell-shocked in the prem.  even greeno was a pale comparison to his champs season.  its tough at the top, and even tougher when you fall!!!

[GMF 738]

[quote user="nutty nigel"][quote user="GazzaTCC"]

If Worthy really believed he had a better squad than our promotion season, having regard to recent signings, that proves he really had "lost the plot" and should have been sacked way before he actually was![/quote]

2003/4                                     2005/6

Green                                       Green

Crighton                                   Ward

                                                Gallacher

Edworthy                                 MLJ

Briggs                                      Colin

Drury                                       Drury

Brennan                                   Brennan

Fleming                                    Fleming

MacKay                                  Doherty

Shackell                                  Shackell

Sinclair                                    Charlton

Francis                                    Francis

Holt                                        Hughes

Mulryne                                  Safri

Easton                                     Jarrett

Rivers                                     Marney

Henderson                             Henderson

McVeigh                               McVeigh

Huckerby                              Huckerby

Roberts                                 Ashton

Svensson                              Thorne

McKenzie                            McKenzie

Jarvis                                    Jarvis

 

 

[/quote]

Football is a game of opinions Nutty, but one squad did the business, the latter failed miserably!