Watford vs Norwich - Player ratings

[Bovril 264]

just got back from the match and normally as an exile i like to look at other peoples player ratings as it helps you get a better idea of the match, so here''s my pennys worth

Marshall - 7 - made a good save from ellington before the goal and was not really at fault for the goal from shittu but really needs to learn to command his defence, still a real worry

Camara - 5 - and this is being generous, he was frankly awful and if he was carrying an injury it showed, constantly out of position and losing his marker in the first halve

Pearce - 6 - didnt make any glaring mistakes and made some good tackles but like most in the first halve, was simply not tighter enough to henderson and ellington

Doherty - 8 - the best in a very poor bunch in the first halve, and commanding second halve to match, won most headers against a very tall, phsyical watford side, read the game better then pearce as you would expect with the 2 varying experience levels

Valesco - 7 - a mixed bag, in the first halve once more was found wanting for pace from a not especially quick mcanuff and at times seemed reluctant to make the tackle with no support for croft, second halve much better though, linked better with croft and made over-lapping runs and generally defended better

Plastic - 7 - i was looking forward to seeing him for the first time after mainly rave reviews on here, and he pretty much had the same game as valesco, some sloppy passes and ineffective tackle in the first halve, but showed his quality in the second with some great link up touches and kept that side of watford quiet in the second

Fozzy - 7 - once again, we had no midfield in the first halve, the game seemed to bypass them, but did his usual and got stuck in but for me sat well too deep, practially on top of peace and doherty, made better runs though in the second

Patterson - 6 - i really would like to see this bloke succedd, but everytime ive seen him play (about 5 times now) the bloke just cannot seem to even make the simpliest of passes to his team-mates, yes his work-rate was good and like most he did improve as the game went on, but on tonite display would not be in the team for too long

Croft - 4/8 - another complete jekyll and hyde performance from croft, in the first he might as well not have been on the pitch, i dont even think he touched the ball more then a few times....he must have got a personal talking to at half-time, because in the second was a complete revelation, he inspired the team and fans with some great surging runs, attacking the core of the watford defence and set up cureton for the goal..just wish he could do it for 90 mins!

Dublin - 5 - i see the pinkun have sung his plaudits in the report, but i am marking him for his role in which he was placed today, a striker. He''s been brilliant this season, and yes did win some vital headers in defence, but upfront his passes were worse then pattersons and he simply couldnt get going bar one half-effort in the first, didnt really link well with evans either

Evans - 6 - this player clearly has class and will go on to better things but still at the learning stage at the moment, he threatens to be a real-class player but at the moment is making the wrong decisions when in good, match-changing positions..up against a very good shittu tonite and it showed, but still showed plenty of effort

Subs:

Shackell - 7 - not sure why he came on for pearce, but done his job well and kept watford at bay

Cureton - 8 - for the little time he was on the pitch, he was a great player to bring on, helped carry our attacking threat with evans, croft and bertrand..and took his goal extremely well, just on the edge of the area, first time shot past lee..clearly beginning to get his confidence back

semmy - 6 - didnt really have much impact on the game

On a side note, watford as everyone knows are a strong, phsyical side...but i feel sorry for their fans as literally every attacking oppurtunity arose from a long hoof up field, getting the free-kick and then attacking from set-pieces, effective in this division it is but should they go up to the premier will get ripped apart once more

[Philipo87 0]

I think that is a very fair reflection on the game. Agree with Dublin getting a poor mark, yes he made some good clearences towards the end of the game but that was pretty much it. Dublin was marking shittu on corners by the looks of it and didnt get anywer close to him for the goal!!!!!! I will take some responsibility for the goal though as about 5 seconds before it went in i did say ''shittu looks massive and will be hard to deal with from corners''.

 

[Syteanric 1]

[quote user="The Lord"]

just got back from the match and normally as an exile i like to look at other peoples player ratings as it helps you get a better idea of the match, so here''s my pennys worth

Marshall - 7 - made a good save from ellington before the goal and was not really at fault for the goal from shittu but really needs to learn to command his defence, still a real worry

[/quote]

A goal conceded in the 6 yard box is the goalkeepers fault im afraid....

Neil Adams and Chris Goreham both said on Radio Naaaarfolk last night that Marshall should be coming for balls in the 6 yard area... which lets face it is true... if he cant command even his 6 yard box then he shouldnt be in goal...

He''s an awful goalkeeper! its about time people woke up to this....He''s been found out countless times this season and to say "he wasnt at fault for the goal" when his dithering and positioning let him down is just trying to make excuses for him in my opinion.. he has had some good games for us this season but on the whole has cost us lots of goals... you cant have a flapper at the back and thats what he is...

jas :)

[Trent Canary 0]

Cheers for the ratings. Good to see Velasco did well, was worried in his debut in English football he might struggle but sounds like he played well.

Any reason why we improved so much in the second half? Wind? Formation?

[Graham Humphrey 13]

[quote user="jas the barclay king"]

He''s an awful goalkeeper![/quote]

He''s not awful. Don''t be so silly. He has been pretty inconsistent of late, however.

[Matt Juler 208]

Think you''re a little harsh on Croft, he didn''t do anything in the first half as City never got the ball to him. A few times he was available wide right but we tried to play through the middle.

[Ian 1,211]

So, what''s your opinion on Marshall''s save from Dublin then Jas? Or the other couple of quality saves he made that night?The guy is 22, and we all know most keepers don''t peak until their late 20s/early 30s. The potential is there, and I agree he needs to work on certain aspects of the game, but he has pulled off some absolutely incredible saves this season. To call him an awful goalkeeper... well, that''s stupidity beyond belief.Do you think you could point out where he has "cost us goals", and perhaps compare it to where he has "saved us goals with outstanding saves"? I''m fairly certain the latter column would be just a little greater... and besides all that, isn''t he in the top three keepers this league according to the OPTA stats?

[Pete Raven 276]

Dublin has already held his hand up for the Watford goal.

[Yellow Rages 0]

Dublin lost Shittu in the crowd of players and as a result he had a free header but at the same time, Marshall should have really got something on the cross. Other than that Marshall made a couple of great saves. Dublin was out muscled all night by Shittu and struggled against him. He tried to take Shittu out of the frame by pulling wide a few times to allow some gaps through the Centre but Shittu wasn''t buying in and overall had a good game.

 

[still holding out for new heroes 0]

from someone who was actually at the game the goal was down to Dion, Shittu, their main target at set pieces was allowed to run from the edge of the box unchallenged, little Marshall could do...a fabulous save from the Dion flick to help earn us a point.

[YellowIce 0]

[quote user="I. Shurmer"]So, what''s your opinion on Marshall''s save from Dublin then Jas? Or the other couple of quality saves he made that night?

The guy is 22, and we all know most keepers don''t peak until their late 20s/early 30s. The potential is there, and I agree he needs to work on certain aspects of the game, but he has pulled off some absolutely incredible saves this season. To call him an awful goalkeeper... well, that''s stupidity beyond belief.

Do you think you could point out where he has "cost us goals", and perhaps compare it to where he has "saved us goals with outstanding saves"? I''m fairly certain the latter column would be just a little greater... and besides all that, isn''t he in the top three keepers this league according to the OPTA stats?
[/quote]

 

I agree - Marshall has saved our bacon so many times (a couple that spring to mind - penatly away to barnsley, one on one vs preston late on). He is our best asset at this club by a long way imo.

[Syteanric 1]

[quote user="I. Shurmer"]So, what''s your opinion on Marshall''s save from Dublin then Jas? Or the other couple of quality saves he made that night?

The guy is 22, and we all know most keepers don''t peak until their late 20s/early 30s. The potential is there, and I agree he needs to work on certain aspects of the game, but he has pulled off some absolutely incredible saves this season. To call him an awful goalkeeper... well, that''s stupidity beyond belief.

Do you think you could point out where he has "cost us goals", and perhaps compare it to where he has "saved us goals with outstanding saves"? I''m fairly certain the latter column would be just a little greater... and besides all that, isn''t he in the top three keepers this league according to the OPTA stats?
[/quote]

 

and OPTA go to EVERY game and watch EVERY player do they? his run into the opta top 3 co incided with our 13 game unbeaten run... im of the opinoin they base their "stats" purely on results... I doubt they have people at every game counting every single possible statistic... how many people would they need to hire to do that?

 Ok so he is a good shot stopper.. thats never been in doubt.. but then find me a keeper that isnt... He doesnt command his area, his distribution consists of a 1 dimensional punt forwards, he doesnt come from crosses, he''s slow off his line, he doesnt put a man on the frint post at corners (how many have we conceded this season in that way?) i could go on but wont..

Also, he was 3rd or 4th choice at Celtic for the most part.. have a think as to why....

jas :)

[Yellow Rages 0]

[quote user="jas the barclay king"]

[quote user="I. Shurmer"]So, what''s your opinion on Marshall''s save from Dublin then Jas? Or the other couple of quality saves he made that night?

The guy is 22, and we all know most keepers don''t peak until their late 20s/early 30s. The potential is there, and I agree he needs to work on certain aspects of the game, but he has pulled off some absolutely incredible saves this season. To call him an awful goalkeeper... well, that''s stupidity beyond belief.

Do you think you could point out where he has "cost us goals", and perhaps compare it to where he has "saved us goals with outstanding saves"? I''m fairly certain the latter column would be just a little greater... and besides all that, isn''t he in the top three keepers this league according to the OPTA stats?
[/quote]

 

and OPTA go to EVERY game and watch EVERY player do they? his run into the opta top 3 co incided with our 13 game unbeaten run... im of the opinoin they base their "stats" purely on results... I doubt they have people at every game counting every single possible statistic... how many people would they need to hire to do that?

 Ok so he is a good shot stopper.. thats never been in doubt.. but then find me a keeper that isnt... He doesnt command his area, his distribution consists of a 1 dimensional punt forwards, he doesnt come from crosses, he''s slow off his line, he doesnt put a man on the frint post at corners (how many have we conceded this season in that way?) i could go on but wont..

Also, he was 3rd or 4th choice at Celtic for the most part.. have a think as to why....

jas :)

[/quote]

He had a man on the front post for all of their corners last night.

[king canary 8,754]

[quote user="jas the barclay king"]

[quote user="I. Shurmer"]So, what''s your opinion on Marshall''s save from Dublin then Jas? Or the other couple of quality saves he made that night?

The guy is 22, and we all know most keepers don''t peak until their late 20s/early 30s. The potential is there, and I agree he needs to work on certain aspects of the game, but he has pulled off some absolutely incredible saves this season. To call him an awful goalkeeper... well, that''s stupidity beyond belief.

Do you think you could point out where he has "cost us goals", and perhaps compare it to where he has "saved us goals with outstanding saves"? I''m fairly certain the latter column would be just a little greater... and besides all that, isn''t he in the top three keepers this league according to the OPTA stats?
[/quote]

 

and OPTA go to EVERY game and watch EVERY player do they? his run into the opta top 3 co incided with our 13 game unbeaten run... im of the opinoin they base their "stats" purely on results... I doubt they have people at every game counting every single possible statistic... how many people would they need to hire to do that?

 Ok so he is a good shot stopper.. thats never been in doubt.. but then find me a keeper that isnt... He doesnt command his area, his distribution consists of a 1 dimensional punt forwards, he doesnt come from crosses, he''s slow off his line, he doesnt put a man on the frint post at corners (how many have we conceded this season in that way?) i could go on but wont..

Also, he was 3rd or 4th choice at Celtic for the most part.. have a think as to why....

jas :)

[/quote]

 

Cos Celtic are in the Champions League maybe? Marshall is a top keeper, it took green time to learn how to command his area and Marsh will get better. I dont think there has been a game at Carrow where he has not made a fantastic save and usually come out on top in most 1 on 1 situations.

[Bovril 264]

 

Wasn''t he number 2 for the majority of time, only behind to arthur boruc, who lets face it could easily play for the big boys in europe, so no mean thing to play second fiddle to him

Yes Marshall does have his faults like any young pro, such as the points youve made about him not commanding his area, but he is also a top goalie on his day and the fact that his rise up those stupid rankings has ''coincidded'' with our good run is not pure coincidence now is it?

I personally think doherty has had alot to with our recent good defence (bar leicester) got alot of stick earlier in the season, myself included but under glenn roeder for the majority has playd really well

[Trent Canary 0]

[quote user="jas the barclay king"]

[quote user="I. Shurmer"]So, what''s your opinion on Marshall''s save from Dublin then Jas? Or the other couple of quality saves he made that night?

The guy is 22, and we all know most keepers don''t peak until their late 20s/early 30s. The potential is there, and I agree he needs to work on certain aspects of the game, but he has pulled off some absolutely incredible saves this season. To call him an awful goalkeeper... well, that''s stupidity beyond belief.

Do you think you could point out where he has "cost us goals", and perhaps compare it to where he has "saved us goals with outstanding saves"? I''m fairly certain the latter column would be just a little greater... and besides all that, isn''t he in the top three keepers this league according to the OPTA stats?
[/quote]

 

and OPTA go to EVERY game and watch EVERY player do they? his run into the opta top 3 co incided with our 13 game unbeaten run... im of the opinoin they base their "stats" purely on results... I doubt they have people at every game counting every single possible statistic... how many people would they need to hire to do that?

[/quote]

No but they provide an objective set of results where each player faces the same criteria. For the goalkeeping criteria our Dave is second ranked in the league. Obviously they cant check everything, but its objective. And surely if the stats are based purely on results why is a keeper for a bottom half club ranked second? Surely you just contradicted yourself?

[Ian 1,211]

I don''t even know where to start with your post Jas, but here goes...Firstly, I won''t comment on the OPTA stats because I don''t know enough about them. Suffice to say I don''t really think OPTA could draw any meaningful conclusions simply based on results.Secondly, you''ve now gone from "awful goalkeeper" to "good shot stopper". I would go so far as to say he''s a brilliant shot stopper.  Nobody is denying he has made mistakes and certainly has areas of his game to work on, but name me one keeper who is brilliant in all aspects, and has never made a few wrong decisions over the course of the season. If you can do that, then name me one that plays in the Championship.Thirdly, I''m guessing by your name that you go to home matches and actually watch the guy. I can''t really understand your comments about his distribution to be honest. Whenever he gets the ball he is looking to throw it out to the wings, and his throwing is actually very good at times. Sure he''s had a few weak kicks at times, but again, name me a keeper who hasn''t.I would love you to "go on" about his weaknesses, but if you could back them up with some incidents then it would actually carry some weight, rather than being the usual evidence-less, blinkered rants which are frequent on these boards.Finally, as for being 3rd/4th choice at Celtic for the most part, I actually think he was 2nd behind Boruc for most of his senior career there before he came to us, so that''s probably another inaccuracy from you. And let''s not forget that Celtic have put in some good performances in the Champions League. In fact, I believe Marshall has not only kept a clean sheet against Barcelona but also saved a Ronaldinho penalty... for a 23 year old (today, ironically) that''s not bad, so why don''t you have a think as to why...?

[Binky 0]

Personally I didn''t think any one player stood out - they all ran around, especially in the second half - but there was little smooth or defence-splitting passing and the ball was in the air far too much. We seem to be becoming a "kick and rush" side. Has Marshall been ordered to boot the ball as far as he can rather than pass it out through the defence? We lost possession immediately more often than not.

Thought Pattison did a better job than of late and was more effective than Fotheringham with his passing. The one rating I would diagree with is perhaps Velasco. He looks as if he has (or had) quality in him but he was just far too slow especially in getting back - he was skinned too often and going forward seems to prefer passing square. If he''s to stay then he needs to be quicker. Funny how we all see a different game. (Dublin surely deserves credit - and more seriously, Marshall too - for nearly the best own goal ever?!). Great strike by Cureton though - but did we ever look like scoring apart from that? Wonder if Lappin will play tonight....

[Syteanric 1]

[quote user="I. Shurmer"]I don''t even know where to start with your post Jas, but here goes...

Firstly, I won''t comment on the OPTA stats because I don''t know enough about them. Suffice to say I don''t really think OPTA could draw any meaningful conclusions simply based on results.

Secondly, you''ve now gone from "awful goalkeeper" to "good shot stopper". I would go so far as to say he''s a brilliant shot stopper.  Nobody is denying he has made mistakes and certainly has areas of his game to work on, but name me one keeper who is brilliant in all aspects, and has never made a few wrong decisions over the course of the season. If you can do that, then name me one that plays in the Championship.

Thirdly, I''m guessing by your name that you go to home matches and actually watch the guy. I can''t really understand your comments about his distribution to be honest. Whenever he gets the ball he is looking to throw it out to the wings, and his throwing is actually very good at times. Sure he''s had a few weak kicks at times, but again, name me a keeper who hasn''t.

I would love you to "go on" about his weaknesses, but if you could back them up with some incidents then it would actually carry some weight, rather than being the usual evidence-less, blinkered rants which are frequent on these boards.

Finally, as for being 3rd/4th choice at Celtic for the most part, I actually think he was 2nd behind Boruc for most of his senior career there before he came to us, so that''s probably another inaccuracy from you. And let''s not forget that Celtic have put in some good performances in the Champions League. In fact, I believe Marshall has not only kept a clean sheet against Barcelona but also saved a Ronaldinho penalty... for a 23 year old (today, ironically) that''s not bad, so why don''t you have a think as to why...?
[/quote]

 

is that the same Barca game Celtic lost 3-1? youtube it...

ok.. his Mistake against southampton at home where the ball went through his legs.. Pushing Otsemobor away from the front post Vs Cardiff allowing them to score.... Not wearing a cap and then ballsing it up against blackpool in the sun last week despite some in the barclay telling him to stick a hat on!, Leaving a goal bound shot away at Molineux as he thought it was going wide....

Im not sure all the videos exist online.. but the end of season DVD will back up these (and some others too)

Matthew Gilks has been a first choice 40 game a season goalkeeper since the age of 17.... He''s played more games, and has more experiance than Marhsall.... its Experiance that will take us places...

jas :)

[Ian 1,211]

[quote user="jas the barclay king"]

is that the same Barca game Celtic lost 3-1? youtube it...

[/quote]No, I was talking about the clean sheet he kept in the UEFA cup. Here''s a link for you so you don''t have to Google it - scroll down to the bottom of the page:http://www.geocities.com/colosseum/field/2592/uefa_i_03-04.html[quote user="jas the barclay king"]

ok.. his Mistake against southampton at home where the ball went through his legs.. Pushing Otsemobor away from the front post Vs Cardiff allowing them to score....*snip*

Im not sure all the videos exist online.. but the end of season DVD will back up these (and some others too)[/quote]Okay, so Marhsall has made mistakes, some of which have cost us goals. I counter that by saying he has made some saves which I doubt many other keepers in this league would have the ability to. Goals conceded has NOT been our problem this season - end of story.

[quote user="jas the barclay king"]

Matthew Gilks has been a first choice 40 game a season goalkeeper since the age of 17.... He''s played more games, and has more experiance than Marhsall.... its Experiance that will take us places...[/quote]You''ve got to be taking the pee? Now without slighting Gilksy, as I''ve not seen him play before, and don''t want to draw any ignorant conclusions - but Rochdale are a league two outfit who I don''t think have ever risen above that level. No disrespect to them (they outplayed us in the LC by all accounts), but are you seriously suggesting that because he played 170+ times for them, and has lots of experience in the bottom tier of the Football League, he should walk into a Championship side over a keeper who has played a blinder against one of the top teams in world football?I know of plenty of 35 year old veterans who have played hundreds of games in my local village team - shall I give them a call? I''m sure they could give those inexperienced Bertrand and Evans guys a run for their money! Lest we forget Marshall is a couple of years younger than Gilks, which would go some way to explaining why he has 100 or so less appearences too.

By all means, I''d love to see Gilks given a chance, but you talk as if he is superior to Marshall, and I''m not sure that''s been proven. Roeder''s turned this team around, and he still picks Marshall over Gilks, so I think his expertise will do for me.

As an aside, we have (I think) the 5th most impotent attack in the league, but our defence is much better than that. However, you''re still praising Cureton but saying Marshall is terrible... something doesn''t add up does it?!

[Trent Canary 0]

Id compare to Marshall to another goalkeeper of the same name you may remember from a few years back. Fantastic shot stopper, not too hot on crosses, and made a few too many mistakes. The first marshall ended up being our player of the season one year lets not forget. And if David carries on like this Im sure he will be in the running for this years prize.

And as has been mentioned, he is still inexperienced and only 22, in a few years time I wouldnt be surprised to see him in the premiership. I remember in the pre-season friendly against west ham he made three of the best saves ive ever seen at carrow read.

As for whether he was 2nd, 3rd, 4th choice at celtic. I checked wikipedia and last season when he was at celtic and not with us he was always on the bench behind Boruc. So second choice...

[Wings 0]

Jas: Of course Marshall isn''t a top class keeper, but he is a very good keeper at this level; his mistakes are few compared to the vast number of times he''s saved our bacon and it is why he will continue to be our number one for years to come despite your opinions.

As for your point on experience, Marshall now has about a years worth of experience as a Championship keeper. How much experience in this division does Matty Gilks have?

He''s got lots to improve on but he has time on his side and has clear and obvious potential. Calling him a terrible keeper shows your naivity.

[LeedsYellow 0]

A cracking post I.Shurmer.  I can barely wait to read the next instalment. 

I was also surprised to hear such strong opinions on last night''s goal keeping performance from someone who wasn''t at the game.

[Syteanric 1]

a striker only scores goals if he gets Service Shurmer... as Chedwyn and Cureton are proving... Jamie hasnt played so well before hitting this purple patch and wasnt scoring.. but then think back to the darker days in the season when we at places like QPR away and failing to get a single shot on target...

 

we could have Ronaldinho in the team but what good would he be if he never got the ball?

jas :)

[Boyo 0]

[quote user="The Lord"]

 

Plastic - 7 - i was looking forward to seeing him for the first time after mainly rave reviews on here, and he pretty much had the same game as valesco, some sloppy passes and ineffective tackle in the first halve, but showed his quality in the second with some great link up touches and kept that side of watford quiet in the second

 

[/quote]

Who is this plastic fella??

 

[Pete Raven 276]

Bertrand, as in Plastic Bertrand:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plastic_Bertrand

[Boyo 0]

Oh right cheers Pete!

[Joanna Grey 0]

[quote user="jas the barclay king"]

[quote user="I. Shurmer"]So, what''s your opinion on Marshall''s save from Dublin then Jas? Or the other couple of quality saves he made that night?

The guy is 22, and we all know most keepers don''t peak until their late 20s/early 30s. The potential is there, and I agree he needs to work on certain aspects of the game, but he has pulled off some absolutely incredible saves this season. To call him an awful goalkeeper... well, that''s stupidity beyond belief.

Do you think you could point out where he has "cost us goals", and perhaps compare it to where he has "saved us goals with outstanding saves"? I''m fairly certain the latter column would be just a little greater... and besides all that, isn''t he in the top three keepers this league according to the OPTA stats?
[/quote]

 

and OPTA go to EVERY game and watch EVERY player do they? his run into the opta top 3 co incided with our 13 game unbeaten run... im of the opinoin they base their "stats" purely on results... I doubt they have people at every game counting every single possible statistic... how many people would they need to hire to do that?

 Ok so he is a good shot stopper.. thats never been in doubt.. but then find me a keeper that isnt... He doesnt command his area, his distribution consists of a 1 dimensional punt forwards, he doesnt come from crosses, he''s slow off his line, he doesnt put a man on the frint post at corners (how many have we conceded this season in that way?) i could go on but wont..

Also, he was 3rd or 4th choice at Celtic for the most part.. have a think as to why....

jas :)

[/quote]

jas - FYI, OPTA analyse the video for each match and mark each player with positive or negative marks depending on the action performed ( eg: a goal scores high, a red card would generate a negative score ). They have a huge amount of operatives who take 5-6 hours to analyse one match, they are highly trained and you must remember that there is only one ball to follow. OPTA are a huge company, they don''t make things up.....

[Punting Canary 0]

Regarding the goalkeeping situation I am led to believe by someone close to the situation that Roeder does not really fancy Marshall for the position long term and that we are likely to be looking for another keeper in the closed season.  It does rather beg the question what on earth we have done selling Joe Lewis who has just scooped the player of the month award and is likely to be hot-footing it to the premiership before to long with Norwich receiving a % of an underinflated transfer fee as the Ferguson family pull off a coup at Norwich''s expense. 

[lucky green trainers 0]

[quote user="Trent Canary"]

Cheers for the ratings. Good to see Velasco did well, was worried in his debut in English football he might struggle but sounds like he played well.

Any reason why we improved so much in the second half? Wind? Formation?

[/quote]sound like a blast of hot air from roeder at half-time did the trick trent!!!