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arrdee

Oh for a Jimmy Hill

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What would you give for a Jimmy Hill  Ricardo ? A midfield player with that killer pass ? I can hear the crowd roaring now every time Jimmy picked up the ball , the dropping of the shoulder , the swivel of the hips , the killer ball threaded through the defence , wonderful ,how many times did he do that Ricardo during a match ? not once but countless times  , I think we could have scored playing alongside Jimmy , how many goals did he set up for Bly and Allcock ?

He was the first player that I ever saw that did  the drag back with the ball , I couldn''t believe my eyes , I remember trying to do that all the next day with little success , I could do it while nearly stationary but Jimmy was doing it at speed , I can well remember him teasing and tantalising defences and the number of times the two defenders who were supposed to be marking him would collide with one another as they were bewildered trying to work out which way Jimmy was going and of course then came that killer pass of his. 

Of course there were hatchet men sent out to stop Jimmy playing , players didn''t get the protection then that they have today , Jimmy always had the ability to ride those  tackles , he was hardly ever injured .

Do you think Ricardo we will ever see his like again ? Those misty days , those hazy days so long ago ,those days I will remember for the rest of my life , the days when I saw the best player ever to pull on a City shirt , Jimmy Hill .arrdee.

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He was my very favourite player during those golden days arrdee. To think when it was all happening with the squad Archie assembled we were in the third division. In today''s world I could not see any team operating one division below us holding on to someone with Jimmy Hill''s quality for as long as we did. The world has changed my friend.

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[quote user="arrdee"]

What would you give for a Jimmy Hill  Ricardo ? A midfield player with that killer pass ? I can hear the crowd roaring now every time Jimmy picked up the ball , the dropping of the shoulder , the swivel of the hips , the killer ball threaded through the defence , wonderful ,how many times did he do that Ricardo during a match ? not once but countless times  , I think we could have scored playing alongside Jimmy , how many goals did he set up for Bly and Allcock ?

He was the first player that I ever saw that did  the drag back with the ball , I couldn''t believe my eyes , I remember trying to do that all the next day with little success , I could do it while nearly stationary but Jimmy was doing it at speed , I can well remember him teasing and tantalising defences and the number of times the two defenders who were supposed to be marking him would collide with one another as they were bewildered trying to work out which way Jimmy was going and of course then came that killer pass of his. 

Of course there were hatchet men sent out to stop Jimmy playing , players didn''t get the protection then that they have today , Jimmy always had the ability to ride those  tackles , he was hardly ever injured .

Do you think Ricardo we will ever see his like again ? Those misty days , those hazy days so long ago ,those days I will remember for the rest of my life , the days when I saw the best player ever to pull on a City shirt , Jimmy Hill .arrdee.

[/quote]

Well Ray, to start with I have to agree with you about Jimmy Hill. He was as good a ball player as I have ever seen in City colours. I know the game has changed a lot since those days but we just don''t seem to have his type of footballer any more. Someone who can put their foot on the ball and beat an opponent with just a slight movement of the shoulders. Jimmy wasn''t that quick but he was just magic with the ball at his feet. He just seemed to have the knack of showing the ball to a defender but being somewhere else when the tackle came in.Where are the players of his type today? The Stanley Matthews, Johnny Haynes, Alan Hudsons, Johnny Giles types seem to be gone from the game.

I remember when he was having a blinder there would be a collective gasp from the crowd everytime he recieved the ball because you just knew you were going to see something memorable. The nearest thing we have had to that in recent years has been when Darren Huckerby was at his best. They both had that ability to excite the crowd. I would say that Darren was quicker than Jimmy but Jimmy had the greater ball control and vision for a pass.

I''m glad you remember and respect Jimmy the same way I do Ray. The young ''uns today think it''s all about pace and athletic ability because that seems to be the direction the modern game is taking. I''m just thankful that I was around to witness players like Jimmy Hill because I don''t see their type anymore in the modern game.

Great player and great memories Ray

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[quote user="YankeeCanary"]He was my very favourite player during those golden days arrdee. To think when it was all happening with the squad Archie assembled we were in the third division. In today''s world I could not see any team operating one division below us holding on to someone with Jimmy Hill''s quality for as long as we did. The world has changed my friend.[/quote]

The world has indeed changed Yankee. The game is much quicker and more physical than it was in those glorious long gone days of boys from ''59.

It''s a great pity that we don''t have any film of Jimmy in action. I don''t think people today would believe what a top notch player he was. The guy had such grace and balance on the ball, it was just magical watch him when he was really on song. Those brought up on the modern game probably think we are exagerating but you, Ray and I saw him with our own eyes and we know that kind of skill is sadly lacking nowadays.

He was a wonderfully creative player but also a goalscorer. A lot of people don''t realise that he is equal in the all time scoring charts with Ron Davies and Ted McDougal on 66 goals in 195 appearances. How much would someone like that cost today?

 

 

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Cheers Ray, Yankee and Ricardo. Fascinating stuff.

If you had to choose one player from modern day world football who was most like Jimmy Hill who would it be? Or are there really no players who are comparable. When I first read Ray''s description I immediately thought of Messi, am i close?

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I thought you meant a moaning pundit (with or without the big chin), and I was about to point out that we have plenty of them on this board.

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Thanks for sharing your memories Arrdee, Yankee and Ricardo. Of course i am waaaaaayyyyyy too young to remember players from so long ago. Here''s a link with a picture http://nifootball.blogspot.com/2006/12/jimmy-hill.html But Ricardo''s right unfortunately there''s unlikely to be any film of the great man in action. Unless you can pick him out from this bad memory. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CCwSvHST5bA

 

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[quote user="Shack Attack"]

Cheers Ray, Yankee and Ricardo. Fascinating stuff.

If you had to choose one player from modern day world football who was most like Jimmy Hill who would it be? Or are there really no players who are comparable. When I first read Ray''s description I immediately thought of Messi, am i close?

[/quote]

Thanks Shack, I am sure we are all glad to share our memories of those great players of the past.

It is very difficult to compare players from fifty years ago with the players of today because so much has changed. To start with I think we were still playing with the old lace up leather ball in those days. Anybody who played then will no doubt remember how heavy it used to get in wet weather. I remember once in a school game heading the ball on a wet day. It was like heading a medicine ball.

If you ever watch a film of a game from the fifties you will be struck by how much slower it was than nowadays. All the top sides today seem to have six footers in every position. In the old days you had a big guy at centre forward and centre half but quite often you had short guys who were either very quick wingers or good ball playing inside forwards. Typical examples of this from my early days were Errol Crossan and Tommy Bryceland.

Forwards attacked, defenders defended and inside forwards did the fetching and carrying in midfield. That style of play meant that the midfield was less congested than today. A good player could beat his marker and be free to look up and deliver his pass. Nowadays any creative player seems to have someone constantly in his face. I think the great players of old would have found it much harder in the modern game. It''s the same with any sport, it''s very hard to compare the skills of players from different era''s because conditions are so different now compared with fifty years ago.

I consider myself fortunate to have seen so many of City''s famous names over the past 50 plus years. Jimmy Hill, Bobby Brennan, Martin Peters, Colin Suggett, Ron Davies, Kevin Reeves just to mention a few. They were all fine players in their own era''s but how they would compare with players from the present day is something you could argue about forever without coming to a conclusion that we would all agree with.

 

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Ricardo the balls had just changed to the "non" lace type as Archie Macauly gave me an old training one. The first I had seen without bladder and lace. The pride of our local recreation ground. "My ball I''m going to be.........". Don''t forget that Jimmy Hill had the magnificent Bobby Brennan outside him and a very fast Errol Crossan. That team of the late 50''s could probably still do a job now (if we could bring them forward in time). They stayed at little Norwich as there was still a max wage so they could not earn more anywhere else. The days of soccer rattles and very full houses. YES PLEASE

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[quote user="The Butler"]Ricardo the balls had just changed to the "non" lace type as Archie Macauly gave me an old training one. The first I had seen without bladder and lace. The pride of our local recreation ground. "My ball I''m going to be.........". Don''t forget that Jimmy Hill had the magnificent Bobby Brennan outside him and a very fast Errol Crossan. That team of the late 50''s could probably still do a job now (if we could bring them forward in time). They stayed at little Norwich as there was still a max wage so they could not earn more anywhere else. The days of soccer rattles and very full houses. YES PLEASE[/quote]

Yes Butler, I think you are right about that and no, I haven''t forgotten Brennan and Crossan. How could we ever forget that great side of ''59.

The maximum wage during the late 50''s was about £17 a week and I think the bonus''s were £4 a win and £2 a draw. I well remember when Jimmy Hill (not our Jimmy, the one with the chin and beard) was the head of the Footballers union and was fighting to get rid of the maximum wage. Funny how things go full circle, now people are talking about a salary cap in order to make things more competitive.

I wouldn''t want to see footballers made slaves again but it would be nice to see the talent spread more evenly as it was in the old days.

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They got a very minimum wage (if any) out of season and most of thme supplemented with other work to make ends meet. My mates Dad was the manager os a tally shop at the top of Surry st. and was an ex pro footballer himself. They all used to dissappear into Taffy''s place for a bevvy or two when they wanted to get out of the way.Down to earth, thourghly nice blokes the lot of them, and they still are.Can you see this lot of pro''s mixing and working as they did.

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Does my memory deceive me or did we not have the wonderful Jimmy Hill in tandem with another of my greatest City stars, Tommy Bryceland? I am surre I remember the two playing together and giving the whole place a lesson in the beautiful game. I met TB in the Number 10 cafe near the station, he and Phil Kelly were playing on the pinball machines. They were up for a chat, good guys and no ''star'' attitudes about them.

Pace and athletiscism are all very well but they are no substitute for sheer class. It is why, despite being City since forever and for ever, I can appreciate watching the skills or Man Utd and the passing brilliance of the Arsenal.

 

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[quote user="nutty nigel"]

Thanks for sharing your memories Arrdee, Yankee and Ricardo. Of course i am waaaaaayyyyyy too young to remember players from so long ago. Here''s a link with a picture http://nifootball.blogspot.com/2006/12/jimmy-hill.html But Ricardo''s right unfortunately there''s unlikely to be any film of the great man in action. Unless you can pick him out from this bad memory. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CCwSvHST5bA

 

[/quote]

Thanks for that Nutty. That game still brings a lump to my throat.

One thing that struck me was that we used to play in Black shorts with 2 yellow stripes up the side.

I think it was well into the 60''s before we changed to green shorts.

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[quote user="Warminster Yellow"]

Does my memory deceive me or did we not have the wonderful Jimmy Hill in tandem with another of my greatest City stars, Tommy Bryceland? I am surre I remember the two playing together and giving the whole place a lesson in the beautiful game. I met TB in the Number 10 cafe near the station, he and Phil Kelly were playing on the pinball machines. They were up for a chat, good guys and no ''star'' attitudes about them.

Pace and athletiscism are all very well but they are no substitute for sheer class. It is why, despite being City since forever and for ever, I can appreciate watching the skills or Man Utd and the passing brilliance of the Arsenal.

 

[/quote]

Your memory is indeed correct Warminster. They played together for part of the 62/63 season.

 

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[quote user="ricardo"]

[quote user="YankeeCanary"]He was my very favourite player during those golden days arrdee. To think when it was all happening with the squad Archie assembled we were in the third division. In today''s world I could not see any team operating one division below us holding on to someone with Jimmy Hill''s quality for as long as we did. The world has changed my friend.[/quote]

The world has indeed changed Yankee. The game is much quicker and more physical than it was in those glorious long gone days of boys from ''59.

It''s a great pity that we don''t have any film of Jimmy in action. I don''t think people today would believe what a top notch player he was. The guy had such grace and balance on the ball, it was just magical watch him when he was really on song. Those brought up on the modern game probably think we are exagerating but you, Ray and I saw him with our own eyes and we know that kind of skill is sadly lacking nowadays.

He was a wonderfully creative player but also a goalscorer. A lot of people don''t realise that he is equal in the all time scoring charts with Ron Davies and Ted McDougal on 66 goals in 195 appearances. How much would someone like that cost today?

 

 

[/quote]

Yes I think you have it right Ricardo and Yankee ,the words I was looking for in my poor attempt to describe Jimmy was grace , yes grace and balance . There was always that magic about him ,that something that set him apart , as soon as he touched the ball you sensed that something extra . Its hard to describe to people that never saw Jimmy play but for us who saw him with our own eyes there was that extra talent . then there was the fact of his goal scoring,  the shot on him was awesome he could tank a ball with either foot I might add .If only I could turn back the time so some of the younger fans could have seem him play .If only , yes If only . arrdee .

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[quote user="Shack Attack"]

Cheers Ray, Yankee and Ricardo. Fascinating stuff.

If you had to choose one player from modern day world football who was most like Jimmy Hill who would it be? Or are there really no players who are comparable. When I first read Ray''s description I immediately thought of Messi, am i close?

[/quote]

Andy you ask me to choose a player from the modern game to compare with Jimmy Hill well as you suggest Messi , a very good player indeed but I think there is a big difference ( i am tapping my head with my finger ) intelligence , I think that sums it up .Remember I am biased though . arrdee.

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[quote user="ricardo"]

He was a wonderfully creative player but also a goalscorer. A lot of people don''t realise that he is equal in the all time scoring charts with Ron Davies and Ted McDougal on 66 goals in 195 appearances. How much would someone like that cost today?

 [/quote]

Is this a midfield player in a 3-2-5 formation (one of the two) or a deep sitting forward?  If he is one of the two then, in the modern game, you would be looking for a full back/defensive midfielder who scores 1 in 3.  I don''t think such a player exists!If he is a deep sitting forward, who would now play in midfield then Liam Larwence has a similar strike rate currently.  He was signed by stoke for £500k, but didn''t have that strike rate then.  The same is true of £350k Patrick Agyeman and £150k Walters (scum).   Silvan Ebanks-Blake had a similar strike rate and cost £1.5m.

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Thanks again to Ricardo and Ray. I appreciate that it''s very difficult to compare players from different eras and I must admit I did have an ulterior motive for mentioning Lionel Messi.

I read an interesting article on Monday regarding the export of young Argentinian players. As is quite usual with these things the comments left by bloggers were mainly focused on the difference in styles between young Argentinian players and young English players. I was basically just wondering whether we used to produce more so called ''flair players'' in the days of Jimmy Hill than we do today, as it would tie in nicely with a couple of theories I have.

I''ll post the article and a couple of other pieces in a new thread when I get the chance (probably tomorrow), cue howls of derision from the "What''s this got to do with Norwich" brigade [;)] .

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I''m amazed that I need to point this out, but there is action footage of Jinking Jimmy actually scoring a hat-trick against Sunderland (one aided by a vicious deflection) in  a 4-2 victory (from 1-2 down) at Carrow Road in the ''On The Ball City!'' DVD.Also show a sublime inside the full back pass from Tommy Bryceland that even that master of the technique Johnny Haynes would have been proud of!

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[quote user="Bernard Futter"]I''m amazed that I need to point this out, but there is action footage of Jinking Jimmy actually scoring a hat-trick against Sunderland (one aided by a vicious deflection) in  a 4-2 victory (from 1-2 down) at Carrow Road in the ''On The Ball City!'' DVD.
Also show a sublime inside the full back pass from Tommy Bryceland that even that master of the technique Johnny Haynes would have been proud of!

[/quote]

Bernard, you triggered my memory to a fleeting thought that I was at Carrow Road watching Johnny Haynes  back in the early 60''s. I remember being amazed at how he could so accurately pass the ball over such great distance. What my memory is foggy on was whether or not it was an England game was being played or Fulham because the colours were the same. I''m almost certain it was an England game. What do you remember? 

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I never saw Johnny Haynes at Carrow Road, but as a southern-based product of Norfolk parents, saw a lot of him at Craven Cottage, albeit during the latter part of his illustrious career.Great players generally have a skill/technique unique to them* and I was astounded at how Haynes was adept at running diagonally across the pitch and this is the amazing bit, seemingly without looking up, hit an inch perfect pass out to the winger on the opposite side of the pitch.As well as spectators being unable to anticipate such a play, his collegues couldn''t either and mere mortal team mates such as Graham Leggatt would get the full on Haynes glare when the ball ran out of play. * I used to watch Martin Peters at City and his unbelievable positional play/reading of the game which was all about, at that stage of his career, husbanding resources and only putting effort in when it really mattered.

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Thanks Bernard. I concur, obviously, on the inch perfect passes. I will wait to see if Ricardo can answer my question because I feel sure I''m right that Haynes played in an England shirt at Carrow Road.

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And now presenting the man himself (albeit in rather stilted prose):

 

Jimmy Hill

Appearances: 195
Goals: 66
Born: Carrickfergus, October 31, 1935.
Debut: Norwich City 3 Newport County 0 (August 23, 1958).
Final appearance: Walsall 3 Norwich City 1 (May 14, 1963).
Great moments: Despite a weak right ankle, Hill, who cost a mere £3000, was to give five years’ outstanding service to City, helping them reach the semi-finals of the FA Cup, gain promotion to the Second Division and firmly establish themselves in their new lofty surroundings.
Hill scored 13 goals in his first season, including two early in the famous FA Cup run in which he was an ever-present, and maintained those standards over the next four seasons, never failing to get into double figures. His best campaign was concerned was 1959-60, when his 16 goals helped City return to Division Two.
He moved to Everton during the summer of 1963 for £25,000 – a considerable sum in those days – but was unable to repeat his successes at Carrow Road and eventually dropped down to play for Stanley Matthews at Port Vale before seeing out his career in Northern Ireland.

You know 66 goals in 195 appearances from a ''scheming'' inside forward is a remarkable return.

And oddly enough my abiding memory of Jimmy Hill is watching from the old Barclay when he scored with an unexpected rocket from all of 40 yards at the River End - I think it might have been in a 5 goal hammering of a rather hapless Mansfield Town or Port Vale, but I could be wrong. Timing was the name of his game, power - never heard of it!

 

and now from a Northern Ireland perspective:

NIFG

Northern Ireland’s Footballing Greats

Jimmy Hill

Name: Matthew James Hill

Born: 31 October 1935, Carrickfergus

Height: 5.08 ft

Weight: 11.00 st

Position: Inside/Outside-Left

.

Representative Honours: Northern Ireland: 7 Full Caps (1959-1963), 2 ‘B’ Caps (1957-1960), Amateur; Irish League: 6 Caps (1956-1968).

Club Honours: (with Linfield) Irish League Champion; (with Norwich) Football League Division Three Runner-Up 1959/60 (promoted); Football League Cup Winner 1961/62; (with Derry) Irish Cup Runner-Up 1970/71.

.

Club Career:

Carrickfergus YMCA; Carrick Rangers (Irish Intermediate League); Linfield (Irish League) 1953/54-1956/57; Newcastle United (Football League) 1957/58 (11/2 League); Norwich City (Football League) 1958/59-1962/63 (161/55 League, 34/11 Cup); Everton (Football League) 1963/64-1965/66 (7/1 League); Port Vale (Football League) 1965/66-1967/68 (63/8 League, 9 Cup games); Derry City player-manager (Irish League) 1968/69-1970/71; Linfield player-manager 1971/72 (0(1)/0 Europe).

.

Biography:

Jimmy Hill was a goalscoring winger who caught the eye with hometown club Carrick Rangers before joining Linfield in the mid-1950s. At Windsor Park he picked up a League title as well as Inter-League honours, prompting Newcastle to sign him in part-exchange for Jackie Milburn in 1957. They were big boots to fill at St James’ Park, and perhaps unsurprisingly, Hill failed to impress the Magpies’ faithful.

It was at Norwich City that Hill’s Football League career really took off. In 1959 he was the creative force (along with former Irish international forward Bobby Brennan) in the team that reached the FA Cup semi-final, despite their Third Division status; and the following season he top-scored with 16 goals as the club finished as runners-up and clinched promotion to the Second Division. In 1962 Hill was part of the Norwich team that won their first major honour, scoring in the 4-0 aggregate win over Rochdale in the League Cup Final. With 66 goals he still ranks amongst the Canaries’ top goalscorers.

With Billy Bingham’s Everton career drawing to a close, Harry Catterick was perhaps excited by the prospect of replacing one Irish winger with another and consequently stumped up £25,000 for Hill’s signature in the summer of 1963. Once again Hill failed to make an impact on the English top-flight, and hampered by injury, he made just seven appearances in two seasons. Early in the 1965/66 season Hill left Goodison for Port Vale, once again attempting to fill in where Bingham had left off.

Jimmy Hill returned to the Irish League as player-manager of Derry City in 1968, guiding them to runners-up spot in the City Cup and Irish League in his first season and to the Irish Cup Final in 1971. He also added further Irish League caps to his collection. In 1971 he once again replaced Billy Bingham, taking over the role of Linfield manager, but he lasted just a season at Windsor Park before resigning for personal reasons.

.

Hill remained outside the game for almost twenty years, running a sportshop in his native Carrickfergus, before taking the job as Carrick Rangers manager in November 1988. With Carrick struggling in the Irish League, he resigned in February 1991.

.

Northern Ireland Cap Details:

22-04-1959 Wales……. H W 4-1 BC

06-04-1960 Wales……. A L 2-3 BC

26-10-1960 West Germany H L 3-4 BC

07-10-1961 Scotland…. H L 1-6 BC

12-10-1963 Scotland…. H W 2-1 BC

30-10-1963 Spain……. H L 0-1 BC

20-11-1963 England….. A L 3-8 BC


Summary: 7/0. Won 2, Drew 0, Lost 5.

 

OTBC

 

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Yankee. I feel sure that the only England game at Carrow Road was an under-23 international. Can''t remember when or who they played but do remember Terry Alcock won his only cap in this game. I think it was around 1960.

 

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[quote user="YankeeCanary"]Thanks Bernard. I concur, obviously, on the inch perfect passes. I will wait to see if Ricardo can answer my question because I feel sure I''m right that Haynes played in an England shirt at Carrow Road.[/quote]

No mate, I can''t recall Johnny Haynes playing in an England International at Carrow Rd. I may be wrong but I certainly can''t remember attending it.

I remember we had an Under 23 International in October 1958 against Czechoslovakia and the likes of Jimmy Greaves, Maurice Setters and Bobby Charlton played. I also recall Alan Hodgkinson in goal and Jimmy Armfield at fullback. I believe we won that game 3-0 and I stood just to the left of the goal at the River End because they had section off an area for boys (I was 13 at the time).

I wonder if you are confusing it with a game against the Army, probably in 57 or 58 which was one of the early floodlit games. Those were the days when a lot of young players were still in the Army because of conscription.

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