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Trouble at and after the game

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FAO Big Jim

Fact 1 – I do not drag my girlfriend to any football game

Fact 2 – Yes females can go to and enjoy football (they can actually be

knowledgeable to!), it doesn’t need to be a male only environment in this day

and age! I think such comments say more about you to be honest!

Fact 3- I may choose to go to football with male friends also (more

conventional to you I guess), however it wouldn’t have changed anything to my

reaction to the aforementioned moron.

Fact 4 – Any incident with a person at football (or any other walk of life)

has unique circumstances and therefore I will do whatever action I see as

suitable and likely to get a result and sort the situation out to satisfy me.

Fact 5 – Not wanting to tolerate behaviour that most single cell creatures

would be ashamed of is something I am proud to do, as should any civilised

human.

Fact 6 – People paid to police football games are there for a reason, then

why not ensure they do their jobs properly and use them for your benefit if

necessary? Since I would not want to initiate a confrontation that would result

in my ejection of from the ground I will say what I feel to be suitable (which

happened to lead to a vile abusive response) and see what happens thereon, in

this case I did enough to highlight a problem that the stewards picked up on

and intervened when necessary, credit to them for their awareness, and this guy

was removed to wanting to smash my face in! foolish at the best of times.

Fact 7- Have no idea why this numpty happened to be right behind me, does

there have to be a reason? bad luck on both out parts I guess.

Fact 8 – For someone that can be bothered to compose a well constructed

reply to a thread voicing my negative comments regarding vile and anti social

behaviour* at a football game it is most unusual that you post very little

else.

*anti social in that it would warrant ejection from any football ground in

the country, not merely standard chanting and banter with decent fellow fans.

Now, unless you are this moron who was sat behind me, you are not aware of

the facts and have choose to either insinuate that I am either exagerating the

facts or you are in support of the vile sub human behaviour I have stated in

previous posts, namely racist and extremely unpleasant chanting, object

throwing and childish refusal to do as polite stewards have requested.

I have not for one second implied that I have any issue with groups of fans,

just people acting in the way described previously be it in groups or alone. I

tend to stand up and take care of myself but will always avoid initiating

confrontation at all times, for this I have no shame.

I think I’ll stop posting on this thread because it is obvious some people

are of limited intelligence and some just think that anti social behaviour is

fine, trying to persuade them otherwise is futile.

On the whole I think these instances are rare and I am still a proud Norwich

fan and think most a decent people although there will always be some who I do not

like, but that is life.

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Oh yeah, organised? does that mean no other innocent people suffer! no property gets damaged? shame you weren''t in Coventry, you enjoy that, loads of 50 year old men fighting with knives. Well sorry if this offends anyone (well actually i''m not) but they are filth, and anyone thinking this behaviour is acceptible should just p*ss off someone else, you''re not welcome.If you think you''re hard you''''re not, just pathetic social missfits as far as i''m concerned. Although there is a little bit of me that actually thinks it might be OK since eventually they will eradicate each other!

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Marty, was the chap in question ejected very near the end- almost on the final whistle in fact? And you still haven`t answered my question on how you would react if a Leicester fan had been giving you and your girlfriend vile abuse outside the ground and one of our "morons" saw them off??

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Leicester fans involved in more trouble today.

I was at the game and to be honest, I was standing and have no problem with it.

In fact I was quite irritated at the guy in front who started a row with fellow fans by shouting at everyone to stop being "F***ing C***S" and sit down.

There was a thug element which i have never seen in about 20years of following City. I''d guess we are in the bottom 5% of teams for trouble-causing fans though!!

As for organised violence, imo it is just plain wrong. Then again, if they are going to do it I would rather it was prganised and well away from the public.

Don''t get me wrong, i think anyone who goes to the football just for a fight is scum. In Poland, and Germany, rival groups of fans organise fights in very rural and secluded areas. I would much rather the thugs did this rather than risk innocent bystanders getting involved.

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I find the "hooligans" quite funny, for the following reasons:-

1)   They never seem to actually "fight".  They just spread their arms out wide saying "come on then" , "you want it then" etc, and then run if a reaction is forthcoming.  And vice versa.

2) They throw things (bricks etc) at each other.  I could do that, and I''m as weak as piss!

3) They (still) wear Stone Island.  Sooooo 10 years ago.

4) They use expressions like "firm" , "crew",  "ob"

5) They are, well, old.  These "firms" (!) I see about really should spend some time with their children/grandchildren, rather than participating in the above activities.    

6) They should join up and do a tour in Afghanistan or Iraq.  Maybe not though, you wouldn''t win a war by throwing road signs, bricks, shouting "come on then you c**t", and generally being fat, 45, in unfashionable clothing!!

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[quote user="Marty"]FAO Big Jim


Fact 1 – I do not drag my girlfriend to any football game

Fact 2 – Yes females can go to and enjoy football (they can actually be knowledgeable to!), it doesn’t need to be a male only environment in this day and age! I think such comments say more about you to be honest!

Fact 3- I may choose to go to football with male friends also (more conventional to you I guess), however it wouldn’t have changed anything to my reaction to the aforementioned moron.

Fact 4 – Any incident with a person at football (or any other walk of life) has unique circumstances and therefore I will do whatever action I see as suitable and likely to get a result and sort the situation out to satisfy me.

Fact 5 – Not wanting to tolerate behaviour that most single cell creatures would be ashamed of is something I am proud to do, as should any civilised human.

Fact 6 – People paid to police football games are there for a reason, then why not ensure they do their jobs properly and use them for your benefit if necessary? Since I would not want to initiate a confrontation that would result in my ejection of from the ground I will say what I feel to be suitable (which happened to lead to a vile abusive response) and see what happens thereon, in this case I did enough to highlight a problem that the stewards picked up on and intervened when necessary, credit to them for their awareness, and this guy was removed to wanting to smash my face in! foolish at the best of times.

Fact 7- Have no idea why this numpty happened to be right behind me, does there have to be a reason? bad luck on both out parts I guess.

Fact 8 – For someone that can be bothered to compose a well constructed reply to a thread voicing my negative comments regarding vile and anti social behaviour* at a football game it is most unusual that you post very little else.

*anti social in that it would warrant ejection from any football ground in the country, not merely standard chanting and banter with decent fellow fans.

Now, unless you are this moron who was sat behind me, you are not aware of the facts and have choose to either insinuate that I am either exagerating the facts or you are in support of the vile sub human behaviour I have stated in previous posts, namely racist and extremely unpleasant chanting, object throwing and childish refusal to do as polite stewards have requested.

I have not for one second implied that I have any issue with groups of fans, just people acting in the way described previously be it in groups or alone. I tend to stand up and take care of myself but will always avoid initiating confrontation at all times, for this I have no shame.

I think I’ll stop posting on this thread because it is obvious some people are of limited intelligence and some just think that anti social behaviour is fine, trying to persuade them otherwise is futile.

On the whole I think these instances are rare and I am still a proud Norwich fan and think most a decent people although there will always be some who I do not like, but that is life.

[/quote]

Marty - I agree 100% with what you say in this post and throughout the thread - violence organised or otherwise has no place in football and some of the attempts to justify it have been pathetic. However one thing does spring to mind for me and I am genuinely not looking for an argument with you here just to understand your thinking.

Why does someone who seems educated, articulate and able to express remarkably sensible views on life in general and the ability of women in particular to enjoy and appreciate football rather than the narrow and sexist dismissal of some of your critics on this thread that it is a game for "boys only" have an avatar that seems to go against your clearly genuine anti-sexist principles? 

Not that it is not a very nice avatar, it is just I would have thought you would considered it was a little demeaning based on your apparent views on other matters.  Perhaps you should alternate it on a weekly basis with a picture of your own buttocks for the sake even-handedness!

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Marty, that reply must''ve taken an age to put together and was rather impressive! As you so rightly point out, i post so infrequently on here that i really don''t have the same time(or inclination if i''m honest) to put similar effort into an 8 point(!!)reply, sorry about that. All i will say is that neither i nor any of my friends are "sub human" nor of "limited intelligence", quite the opposite in fact, although last time i looked football was meant to be an inclusive sport, so i don''t have any problem with such people coming along to games. As you so rightly say there is no place for racism or fascism of any type in the game, IQ tests at the turnstiles are not needed from my point of view!

 As such, i like to see a broad spectrum of the human race at our games. Nerds, lads, OAP''s & dads are all fine as long as no one group takes over and no pointless superiority contests take place, i don''t even(and this''ll shock you) have a problem with lasses coming along, as long as it''s for the same reasons we all go. I''m sure when my little girl''s a bit older i''ll be taking her along to the odd match, although let''s just hope she doesn''t turn out like 99% of the women i''ve known at the football over the past 25 years, ie put on a good act at being interested in the game for a short period whilst in reality only actually going along to a)pull a boyfriend; b)keep an eye on what the boyfriend is up to or; c)gawp at the players'' legs in a testosterone filled environment. I know that sounds extremely sexist and unfair but that is the experience of pretty much every female supporter(and there have been quite a few) we as a group have met over the years. A serious question, did your girlfriend go before you met her and if you ever went your seperate ways do you honestly think she''d carry on going? If the answer is yes and yes the all i can say is well done, you must''ve found a good ''un!

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No Quarter, good post, made me chuckle but most of it is very true.Pboro Canary, I am not a sexist as you so rightly point out and think women can do many things very well and it''s good to see many going to football games nowadays, although I do have some issues with their ability to drive! sorry but this is an observation! (I might get slated for that!) I believe both men and women have their strengths. I would defend my girlfriends rights to go to a game as I would anyone else, young kids to OAP''s.As for the avatar going against my stated principles, well you could argue both ways when it comes artistic and erotic photos of women, I wouldn''t ask my girlfriend to "cover up" on the beach, it is her choice and if she is comfortable with her body it is good in my opinion and I support that. Fair comment mind and an interesting debating point. But there is no way i''d inflict anyone here by baring my buttocks! I think hers are more photogenic than mine!

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[quote user="Mr.Carrow"]Marty, was the chap in question ejected very near the end- almost on the final whistle in fact? And you still haven`t answered my question on how you would react if a Leicester fan had been giving you and your girlfriend vile abuse outside the ground and one of our "morons" saw them off??[/quote]

Any chance of a reply?

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[quote user="Mr.Carrow"]

[quote user="Mr.Carrow"]Marty, was the chap in question ejected very near the end- almost on the final whistle in fact? And you still haven`t answered my question on how you would react if a Leicester fan had been giving you and your girlfriend vile abuse outside the ground and one of our "morons" saw them off??[/quote]

Any chance of a reply?

[/quote]I think I have done more than my fair share or replying in this thread! it is a highly hypothetical question and I would like to think I have the ability to avoid such a confrontation. Anyway, this is not an excuse for the behaviour I have condemed and the guys in question would have stuggled to fight his way out of a paper bag let alone protect others from a group of heavies. I also think that most of the the time there are other means of protection which don''t involve physical retribution.Big Jim, no my girlfriend didn''t go to football before she met me, I introduced her to it many years ago (Bradford vs Norwich FA cup, high scoring game and Ashley Ward scored), but over many years she has grown to enjoy it and become quite knowledgeable about it which is good.

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[quote user="Marty"][quote user="Mr.Carrow"]

[quote user="Mr.Carrow"]Marty, was the chap in question ejected very near the end- almost on the final whistle in fact? And you still haven`t answered my question on how you would react if a Leicester fan had been giving you and your girlfriend vile abuse outside the ground and one of our "morons" saw them off??[/quote]

Any chance of a reply?

[/quote]

I think I have done more than my fair share or replying in this thread! it is a highly hypothetical question and I would like to think I have the ability to avoid such a confrontation. Anyway, this is not an excuse for the behaviour I have condemed and the guys in question would have stuggled to fight his way out of a paper bag let alone protect others from a group of heavies. I also think that most of the the time there are other means of protection which don''t involve physical retribution.

Big Jim, no my girlfriend didn''t go to football before she met me, I introduced her to it many years ago (Bradford vs Norwich FA cup, high scoring game and Ashley Ward scored), but over many years she has grown to enjoy it and become quite knowledgeable about it which is good.
[/quote]

Marty, as you didn`t answer the question i`m assuming i know the bloke you helped get ejected virtually on the final whistle with his two nieces. He`s a long-standing season-ticket holder, goes to virtually every way game and is well known in the pubs before and after games. He`s a beer monster no doubt, and can shoot his mouth off at times but he`s not a thug, definately wouldn`t have thrown anything and is absolutely not a racist-in fact he`s into the lefty ska/punk scene. Like i said "i bet there`s another side to the story". I think at best you have attributed the actions of others to this bloke by mistake and at worst you have jumped to assumptions about someone and exagerated things because they wound you up.

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Mr Carrow.

 

Yep, right at the end as I was attempting to leave. You say there are two sides to the story yet you obviously haven’t spoken to this geezer yet you assume he is whiter than white! I make general criticisms about coin throwing, racist chanting and fighting yet, but these were attributed to whoever does them.

But in this case the guy chants (that I have previously mentioned) and inability to do as the polite steward requested got on my nerves and when I had the audacity to make a similar request myself (relatively politely) I was called an f-ing C___ about 100 times until the end of the game as well being challenged to a fight. Those are the facts. I do not need to justify my actions and did not warrant such hateful abuse even if his character is normally acceptable (according to you), I beg to differ in this occasion and that is why he was removed and I wasn’t.

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[quote user="Marty"]
As for the avatar going against my stated principles, well you could argue both ways when it comes artistic and erotic photos of women, I wouldn''t ask my girlfriend to "cover up" on the beach, it is her choice and if she is comfortable with her body it is good in my opinion and I support that. Fair comment mind and an interesting debating point. But there is no way i''d inflict anyone here by baring my buttocks! I think hers are more photogenic than mine!
[/quote]

As you say Marty an interesting debating point, but like I said I was interested in your thinking not seeking an argument.  And I am also happy to take your assurance as to the the lack of artistic merit in your own posterior and not push that we are all subjected to the sight then!  Although maybe a pic of both sets could be put on a user poll with the opportunity for posters to vote for their fave????  On second thoughts, maybe not.

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[quote user="Mr.Carrow"]

Marty, as you didn`t answer the question i`m assuming i know the bloke you helped get ejected virtually on the final whistle with his two nieces.

[/quote]

Ahhhh, how sweet.

Calling someone an F***ing C*** 100 times, and threatening to fight someone, all in front of his two little nieces. You''re really painting a lovely picture of this guy, Mr Carrow!

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[quote user="Marty"]

Mr Carrow.

 

Yep, right at the end as I was attempting to leave. You say there are two sides to the story yet you obviously haven’t spoken to this geezer yet you assume he is whiter than white! I make general criticisms about coin throwing, racist chanting and fighting yet, but these were attributed to whoever does them.

But in this case the guy chants (that I have previously mentioned) and inability to do as the polite steward requested got on my nerves and when I had the audacity to make a similar request myself (relatively politely) I was called an f-ing C___ about 100 times until the end of the game as well being challenged to a fight. Those are the facts. I do not need to justify my actions and did not warrant such hateful abuse even if his character is normally acceptable (according to you), I beg to differ in this occasion and that is why he was removed and I wasn’t.

[/quote]

Marty, i have known the bloke for ten-odd years and have spoken to him twice since Leicester. I read through your posts before writing my last one and you do seem to suggest he was shouting racist abuse and throwing things. You also throw around words like "moron" "scum" and plenty of others and then hold this bloke up as an example of this. I appreciate you both got very wound up but i think you should be careful before forming such kneejerk assumptions about people-it can make you look a bit silly.

As it happens the bloke in question isn`t too bothered about what happened. The only thing he really takes umbrage to is the suggestion of racism, which he has no truck with. He does admit to giving the linesman some "gingerist" abuse and as a redhead i suppose i could be mortally offended by this, but it`s football and i`d much prefer to see an away crowd full of passionate, noisy-if sometimes volatile- supporters, than the increasing numbers of well-behaved mutes who travel hundreds of miles to sit in silence other than to moan about the toilets or the queue for refreshments. In fact, being stuck in the middle of such a miserable bunch has spoilt my enjoyment at many a game, but i don`t start moaning about it because i am tolerant and accept that people who behave differently to me are quite entitled to enjoy footy in their own way.........

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Mr Carrow,

He repeatedly shouted you f_ng C*** to the linesman as well as myself. Considering it wasn''t warranted and I had been polite throughout I do not see why I cannot make a fairly decent generalisation based on such behaviour. If I was to do kind of thing to someone i''d fully warrant the description of scum and wouldn''t blame anyone for thinking it.

I also have a pretty negative opinion of anyone throwing coins at a football game, I don''t see why that makes me in the wrong.

I was condeming some of the behaviour from the game, I did not state that he was throwing coins or doing racist chanting, he didn''t, although I think the dead prostitue chant was a bit sick, I also object to be goaded for no real reason.

 

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[quote user="Marty"]

Mr Carrow,

He repeatedly shouted you f_ng C*** to the linesman as well as myself. Considering it wasn''t warranted and I had been polite throughout I do not see why I cannot make a fairly decent generalisation based on such behaviour. If I was to do kind of thing to someone i''d fully warrant the description of scum and wouldn''t blame anyone for thinking it.

I also have a pretty negative opinion of anyone throwing coins at a football game, I don''t see why that makes me in the wrong.

I was condeming some of the behaviour from the game, I did not state that he was throwing coins or doing racist chanting, he didn''t, although I think the dead prostitue chant was a bit sick, I also object to be goaded for no real reason.

 

[/quote]

Marty, the bloke has no qualms about being chucked out. I think he knows he went OTT and was asking for it basically. To me, reading through your posts it looks as though you lumped this bloke in with the racists/thugs/coin throwers and you seem to make out you are proud you got one of "them" chucked out. So to my mind you have jumped to conclusions about someone which are largely wrong. We`re all guilty of it i suppose, but i have a problem with people being labelled "scum", "morons" or "cretins" based on some OTT verbals whilst drunk in the middle of a passionate football match.

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[quote user="Mr.Carrow"]

Marty, the bloke has no qualms about being chucked out. I think he knows he went OTT and was asking for it basically. To me, reading through your posts it looks as though you lumped this bloke in with the racists/thugs/coin throwers and you seem to make out you are proud you got one of "them" chucked out. So to my mind you have jumped to conclusions about someone which are largely wrong. We`re all guilty of it i suppose, but i have a problem with people being labelled "scum", "morons" or "cretins" based on some OTT verbals whilst drunk in the middle of a passionate football match.

[/quote]

Mr. Carrow.  Are you, in fact, a lawyer ?

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[quote user="blahblahblah"][quote user="Mr.Carrow"]

Marty, the bloke has no qualms about being chucked out. I think he knows he went OTT and was asking for it basically. To me, reading through your posts it looks as though you lumped this bloke in with the racists/thugs/coin throwers and you seem to make out you are proud you got one of "them" chucked out. So to my mind you have jumped to conclusions about someone which are largely wrong. We`re all guilty of it i suppose, but i have a problem with people being labelled "scum", "morons" or "cretins" based on some OTT verbals whilst drunk in the middle of a passionate football match.

[/quote]

Mr. Carrow.  Are you, in fact, a lawyer ?

[/quote]

Are you Mr Carrow? I may need you soon cuz I''m gonna be sued [:S]

 

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[quote user="blahblahblah"][quote user="Mr.Carrow"]

Marty, the bloke has no qualms about being chucked out. I think he knows he went OTT and was asking for it basically. To me, reading through your posts it looks as though you lumped this bloke in with the racists/thugs/coin throwers and you seem to make out you are proud you got one of "them" chucked out. So to my mind you have jumped to conclusions about someone which are largely wrong. We`re all guilty of it i suppose, but i have a problem with people being labelled "scum", "morons" or "cretins" based on some OTT verbals whilst drunk in the middle of a passionate football match.

[/quote]

Mr. Carrow.  Are you, in fact, a lawyer ?

[/quote]

 

no.. he''s Neil Doncaster

jas :)

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[quote user="Mook"]

[quote user="Mr.Carrow"]

Marty, as you didn`t answer the question i`m assuming i know the bloke you helped get ejected virtually on the final whistle with his two nieces.

[/quote]

Ahhhh, how sweet.

Calling someone an F***ing C*** 100 times, and threatening to fight someone, all in front of his two little nieces. You''re really painting a lovely picture of this guy, Mr Carrow!

[/quote]

Yes Mook, i`m sure he spent the whole game repeating F***ing C*** to some random bloke 100 times.......[8-)] Do you believe whatever you read?? But do feel free to make whatever generalisations you like about a fellow human being based on a two-way debate on a football message board. Especially if it gives you a nice warm glow of superiority.......[^o)]

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[quote user="Mr.Carrow"][quote user="Mook"]

[quote user="Mr.Carrow"]

Marty, as you didn`t answer the question i`m assuming i know the bloke you helped get ejected virtually on the final whistle with his two nieces.

[/quote]

Ahhhh, how sweet.

Calling someone an F***ing C*** 100 times, and threatening to fight someone, all in front of his two little nieces. You''re really painting a lovely picture of this guy, Mr Carrow!

[/quote]

Yes Mook, i`m sure he spent the whole game repeating F***ing C*** to some random bloke 100 times.......[8-)] Do you believe whatever you read?? But do feel free to make whatever generalisations you like about a fellow human being based on a two-way debate on a football message board. Especially if it gives you a nice warm glow of superiority.......[^o)]

[/quote]

No, I made it up, I really have nothing better to do! I am wondering if you are the guy in question? but then you probably wouldn''t have made that post unless you have a very bad memory!

 

 

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[quote user="Marty"][quote user="Mr.Carrow"][quote user="Mook"]

[quote user="Mr.Carrow"]

Marty, as you didn`t answer the question i`m assuming i know the bloke you helped get ejected virtually on the final whistle with his two nieces.

[/quote]

Ahhhh, how sweet.

Calling someone an F***ing C*** 100 times, and threatening to fight someone, all in front of his two little nieces. You''re really painting a lovely picture of this guy, Mr Carrow!

[/quote]

Yes Mook, i`m sure he spent the whole game repeating F***ing C*** to some random bloke 100 times.......[8-)] Do you believe whatever you read?? But do feel free to make whatever generalisations you like about a fellow human being based on a two-way debate on a football message board. Especially if it gives you a nice warm glow of superiority.......[^o)]

[/quote]

No, I made it up, I really have nothing better to do! I am wondering if you are the guy in question? but then you probably wouldn''t have made that post unless you have a very bad memory!

 

 

[/quote]

Well if i am him (i`m not- i used to have a s.ticket behind him in the snakepit), you are crediting someone you have labelled a moron/scum/neanderthal with being able to compose fairly coherant and thoughtful posts, aren`t you? These things are not as straightforward as you seem to think. But then if you get a kick out of jumping to wild conclusions about your fellow man based on one drunken altercation at a football match carry right on, but try and give the ridiculous moral superiority a rest.

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[quote user="Marty"][quote user="Mr.Carrow"][quote user="Mook"]

[quote user="Mr.Carrow"]

Marty, as you didn`t answer the question i`m assuming i know the bloke you helped get ejected virtually on the final whistle with his two nieces.

[/quote]

Ahhhh, how sweet.

Calling someone an F***ing C*** 100 times, and threatening to fight someone, all in front of his two little nieces. You''re really painting a lovely picture of this guy, Mr Carrow!

[/quote]

Yes Mook, i`m sure he spent the whole game repeating F***ing C*** to some random bloke 100 times.......[8-)] Do you believe whatever you read?? But do feel free to make whatever generalisations you like about a fellow human being based on a two-way debate on a football message board. Especially if it gives you a nice warm glow of superiority.......[^o)]

[/quote]

No, I made it up, I really have nothing better to do! I am wondering if you are the guy in question? but then you probably wouldn''t have made that post unless you have a very bad memory![/quote]

Now then Marty, you realise that with your constant haranguing of this poor defenseless fellow human-being, you are 1 tourettes diagnosis away from political incorrectness ?

Shame on you Marty [;)]

Mr. C, particularly like this bit :

[quote]But do feel free to make whatever generalisations you like about a fellow human being based on a two-way debate on a football message board. Especially if it gives you a nice warm glow of superiority.......[^o)][/quote]

That''s never stopped you doing it about our "manipulative, cynical, incompetant / embezzling (take your pick of the last two depending what mood you''re in)" board, has it ? [:)]

Personally, Mr C, I think you''re addicted to playing devils advocado.  I''d stop digging on this one though mate.

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P.c. Blah? I think you`ll find it was Marty who got upset about a bit of swearing by someone who`d had one too many, in the heat of a frustrating football match. He then made all sorts of allegations against the bloke many of which he has retracted, so who is digging the hole?

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[quote user="Mr.Carrow"]P.c. Blah? I think you`ll find it was Marty who got upset about a bit of swearing by someone who`d had one too many, in the heat of a frustrating football match. He then made all sorts of allegations against the bloke many of which he has retracted, so who is digging the hole?[/quote]

You really are like a dog after a bone aren''t you.  If a bloke got drunk at a match in front of his nieces, and swore constantly at the linesman and anyone else who objected to his swearing, I''d think they were scum too.  Even if they were Mother theresa in their usual life, I would form an opinion on the only information to hand.  I find your attempts to extract an apology out of Marty laughable, it''s not like he''s done anything other than offer his opinion on someone who has frankly embarrased themselves, and really should know better as an adult.  I''d would have thought you''d be doing your mate a favour by letting it rest, but no, here you are banging on and on and on...

The space for your last word is below....

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