BlyBlyBabes 0 Posted January 1, 2008 Why does Shackell play so much better alongside Martin Taylor than alongside Gary Doherty?Step up Nutty Nigel. Let''s hear from you as the board ''expert'' on central defenders.OTBCP.S. I bet you Nutty argues that my assertion is not true. Shhhhhhhh....... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nutty nigel 7,526 Posted January 1, 2008 [quote user="BlyBlyBabes"]Why does Shackell play so much better alongside Martin Taylor than alongside Gary Doherty?Step up Nutty Nigel. Let''s hear from you as the board ''expert'' on central defenders.OTBCP.S. I bet you Nutty argues that my assertion is not true. Shhhhhhhh.......[/quote]I give up babes..Step up to the plate and tell me the games where you saw this happen? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ZLF 273 Posted January 1, 2008 [quote user="BlyBlyBabes"]Why does Shackell play so much better alongside Martin Taylor than alongside Gary Doherty?Step up Nutty Nigel. Let''s hear from you as the board ''expert'' on central defenders.OTBCP.S. I bet you Nutty argues that my assertion is not true. Shhhhhhhh.......[/quote] Why is it relevant? If the goals per game conceeded with or without taylor does not change compared to shax with doc whats the beef?The best combination appears to be doc and taylor so where does shax become important?And if the goals conceeded and points won by doc and shacks is the same or better than shax and taylor; if shax does indeed play better with taylor does that not imply that doc has to be performing better than taylor with shax and so be the better defender? No - didnt think so. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BlyBlyBabes 0 Posted January 1, 2008 Do the stats on my assertion Nigel, I dare you. Just like you do to back up your own assertions.As for giving up, that''s for...............Shame on you.OTBC Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
YankeeCanary 0 Posted January 1, 2008 [quote user="BlyBlyBabes"]Why does Shackell play so much better alongside Martin Taylor than alongside Gary Doherty?Step up Nutty Nigel. Let''s hear from you as the board ''expert'' on central defenders.OTBCP.S. I bet you Nutty argues that my assertion is not true. Shhhhhhhh.......[/quote]Why don''t the two of you put your handbags away and stimulate discussion on a more expansive basis. For example, if we still have less squad strength than we need and, assuming we are able to acquire Taylor, and Croft and others show improvement at putting crosses in the box, how about using Gary Doherty up front to knock some people around and create more loose balls to fall to Cureton to poke them home. Doherty can then not only alternate with Dublin but it gives us good options from the bench in case we experience injuries at the front or the back.Now, you see how easy it is to stimulate good discussion even if one is not attending the matches. Now tell me to bring my handbag if I want to come to your fight. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nutty nigel 7,526 Posted January 1, 2008 [quote user="BlyBlyBabes"] Do the stats on my assertion Nigel, I dare you. Just like you do to back up your own assertions.As for giving up, that''s for...............Shame on you.OTBC [/quote]I gave up because I don''t know the answer Babes. How do you ''do the stats'' to show Shackell plays better beside Taylor? I don''t see him play better or worse. I don''t see Shackells positional play or passing any better whoever he plays beside. He seems to be fast becoming a whipping boy now that people are beginning to leave Doherty alone. That''s not going to help him and while we are looking quite tight defensively it''s probably unneccessary.What part of Shackells game do YOU see improved beside Taylor? What games did you think he looked better in? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nutty nigel 7,526 Posted January 1, 2008 [quote user="YankeeCanary"][quote user="BlyBlyBabes"] Why does Shackell play so much better alongside Martin Taylor than alongside Gary Doherty?Step up Nutty Nigel. Let''s hear from you as the board ''expert'' on central defenders.OTBCP.S. I bet you Nutty argues that my assertion is not true. Shhhhhhhh.......[/quote]Why don''t the two of you put your handbags away and stimulate discussion on a more expansive basis. For example, if we still have less squad strength than we need and, assuming we are able to acquire Taylor, and Croft and others show improvement at putting crosses in the box, how about using Gary Doherty up front to knock some people around and create more loose balls to fall to Cureton to poke them home. Doherty can then not only alternate with Dublin but it gives us good options from the bench in case we experience injuries at the front or the back.Now, you see how easy it is to stimulate good discussion even if one is not attending the matches. Now tell me to bring my handbag if I want to come to your fight.[/quote]They are interesting points Yankee but I for one am glad that Roeder uses players in the positions they are strongest in. I was always so critical of playing Dublin at centre back and then sticking him up front after we went a couple of goals down. If we sign Taylor, which I hope we do, it would add to competition for places and I have every confidence in Roeder picking the best pair to play. The role for the player left out would be to win his place back at the first opportunity. Having said that, Dublin and Doherty are far more useful subs than Taylor and Shackell simply because they can be used in alternative positions in needed.Don''t join the fight until it''s nearly over Yankee [;)][:D] Ooops... I didn''t mean it ... I''m not really Cluck back to haunt you [;)] Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
YankeeCanary 0 Posted January 2, 2008 [quote user="nutty nigel"][quote user="YankeeCanary"][quote user="BlyBlyBabes"] Why does Shackell play so much better alongside Martin Taylor than alongside Gary Doherty?Step up Nutty Nigel. Let''s hear from you as the board ''expert'' on central defenders.OTBCP.S. I bet you Nutty argues that my assertion is not true. Shhhhhhhh.......[/quote]Why don''t the two of you put your handbags away and stimulate discussion on a more expansive basis. For example, if we still have less squad strength than we need and, assuming we are able to acquire Taylor, and Croft and others show improvement at putting crosses in the box, how about using Gary Doherty up front to knock some people around and create more loose balls to fall to Cureton to poke them home. Doherty can then not only alternate with Dublin but it gives us good options from the bench in case we experience injuries at the front or the back.Now, you see how easy it is to stimulate good discussion even if one is not attending the matches. Now tell me to bring my handbag if I want to come to your fight.[/quote]They are interesting points Yankee but I for one am glad that Roeder uses players in the positions they are strongest in. I was always so critical of playing Dublin at centre back and then sticking him up front after we went a couple of goals down. If we sign Taylor, which I hope we do, it would add to competition for places and I have every confidence in Roeder picking the best pair to play. The role for the player left out would be to win his place back at the first opportunity. Having said that, Dublin and Doherty are far more useful subs than Taylor and Shackell simply because they can be used in alternative positions in needed.Don''t join the fight until it''s nearly over Yankee [;)][:D] Ooops... I didn''t mean it ... I''m not really Cluck back to haunt you [;)]Cluck didn''t haunt me Nutty....I think I haunted him. Ghosts appear from time to time whereas Cluck has disappeared. [/quote] Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BlyBlyBabes 0 Posted January 2, 2008 [quote user="ZippersLeftFoot"][quote user="BlyBlyBabes"] Why does Shackell play so much better alongside Martin Taylor than alongside Gary Doherty?Step up Nutty Nigel. Let''s hear from you as the board ''expert'' on central defenders.OTBCP.S. I bet you Nutty argues that my assertion is not true. Shhhhhhhh.......[/quote] Why is it relevant? If the goals per game conceeded with or without taylor does not change compared to shax with doc whats the beef?The best combination appears to be doc and taylor so where does shax become important?And if the goals conceeded and points won by doc and shacks is the same or better than shax and taylor; if shax does indeed play better with taylor does that not imply that doc has to be performing better than taylor with shax and so be the better defender?No - didnt think so.[/quote]Zipper. Do you really think that it''s unimportant (''irrelevant'') to find out why Shackell performs better alongside Taylor than Doherty?OTBC Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BlyBlyBabes 0 Posted January 2, 2008 [quote user="nutty nigel"][quote user="BlyBlyBabes"] Do the stats on my assertion Nigel, I dare you. Just like you do to back up your own assertions.As for giving up, that''s for...............Shame on you.OTBC [/quote]I gave up because I don''t know the answer Babes. How do you ''do the stats'' to show Shackell plays better beside Taylor? I don''t see him play better or worse. I don''t see Shackells positional play or passing any better whoever he plays beside. He seems to be fast becoming a whipping boy now that people are beginning to leave Doherty alone. That''s not going to help him and while we are looking quite tight defensively it''s probably unneccessary.What part of Shackells game do YOU see improved beside Taylor? What games did you think he looked better in?[/quote]The same way you always repeatedly do the stats to support your assertion that Doherty is the best central defender of the lot.I presume you are resiling from doing the stats on my assertion because the result doesn''t please you.OTBC Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BlyBlyBabes 0 Posted January 2, 2008 [quote user="YankeeCanary"][quote user="BlyBlyBabes"] Why does Shackell play so much better alongside Martin Taylor than alongside Gary Doherty?Step up Nutty Nigel. Let''s hear from you as the board ''expert'' on central defenders.OTBCP.S. I bet you Nutty argues that my assertion is not true. Shhhhhhhh.......[/quote]Why don''t the two of you put your handbags away and stimulate discussion on a more expansive basis. For example, if we still have less squad strength than we need and, assuming we are able to acquire Taylor, and Croft and others show improvement at putting crosses in the box, how about using Gary Doherty up front to knock some people around and create more loose balls to fall to Cureton to poke them home. Doherty can then not only alternate with Dublin but it gives us good options from the bench in case we experience injuries at the front or the back.Now, you see how easy it is to stimulate good discussion even if one is not attending the matches. Now tell me to bring my handbag if I want to come to your fight.[/quote]Yankee, I didn''t open this particular thread to have an ''expansive discussion''. It has a single, simple subject matter - and you know it. Just that Nigel won''t engage - and wants to have his own argument as is often the case.If you wish to have the ''good expansive discussion'' you hanker after on matters green and yellow, I am sure that tthere are several other threads you could join and make weighty contributions without worrying about two veterans with handbags flailing.OTBC Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BlyBlyBabes 0 Posted January 2, 2008 [quote user="nutty nigel"][quote user="YankeeCanary"][quote user="BlyBlyBabes"] Why does Shackell play so much better alongside Martin Taylor than alongside Gary Doherty?Step up Nutty Nigel. Let''s hear from you as the board ''expert'' on central defenders.OTBCP.S. I bet you Nutty argues that my assertion is not true. Shhhhhhhh.......[/quote]Why don''t the two of you put your handbags away and stimulate discussion on a more expansive basis. For example, if we still have less squad strength than we need and, assuming we are able to acquire Taylor, and Croft and others show improvement at putting crosses in the box, how about using Gary Doherty up front to knock some people around and create more loose balls to fall to Cureton to poke them home. Doherty can then not only alternate with Dublin but it gives us good options from the bench in case we experience injuries at the front or the back.Now, you see how easy it is to stimulate good discussion even if one is not attending the matches. Now tell me to bring my handbag if I want to come to your fight.[/quote]They are interesting points Yankee but I for one am glad that Roeder uses players in the positions they are strongest in. I was always so critical of playing Dublin at centre back and then sticking him up front after we went a couple of goals down. If we sign Taylor, which I hope we do, it would add to competition for places and I have every confidence in Roeder picking the best pair to play. The role for the player left out would be to win his place back at the first opportunity. Having said that, Dublin and Doherty are far more useful subs than Taylor and Shackell simply because they can be used in alternative positions in needed.Don''t join the fight until it''s nearly over Yankee [;)][:D] Ooops... I didn''t mean it ... I''m not really Cluck back to haunt you [;)][/quote]Nigel. I assume you realise that Yankee is saying that Taylor and Shackell is his preferred central defensive pairing. OTBC Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BigFish 1,986 Posted January 2, 2008 I don''t really know where the great Taylor the Saviour myth comes from. Perhaps it is a reflection on the crew who didn''t see Doherty''s attributes until he got injured (when we nose dived) and returned (when our defensive record strated to match any in the Division). Maybe it is a reflection on the lossof depth in the squad - as soon as we get an injury we have to put someone in who isn''t up to the job.Lets face it if he was up to the Prem he would stay at Brum. Both Shax & Doc are perfectly capable at this level but if either gets injured or suspended we have no cover. Dion needs replacing by someone 15 years younger and much faster. Hux looks like he is carrying an injury but can still do a job at this level though not the one man efforts of yesteryear.Trouble is less about the 11 we put out when all are fit/in form but in we only have 11 up to it (including the loanees). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nutty nigel 7,526 Posted January 2, 2008 [quote user="BlyBlyBabes"]The same way you always repeatedly do the stats to support your assertion that Doherty is the best central defender of the lot.I presume you are resiling from doing the stats on my assertion because the result doesn''t please you.OTBC[/quote]Lets just get one thing straight between us Babes. When I watch games I notice things and then I check the stats to see if they back up my opinion. I noticed Doc was our best defender so I checked it out. I noticed we were a much better side for Fotheringhams contribution so I checked it out. I don''t form an opinion on the stats alone and neither do I form an opinion through somebody elses eyes. What to you base your opinions on? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BlyBlyBabes 0 Posted January 2, 2008 [quote user="nutty nigel"][quote user="BlyBlyBabes"] The same way you always repeatedly do the stats to support your assertion that Doherty is the best central defender of the lot.I presume you are resiling from doing the stats on my assertion because the result doesn''t please you.OTBC[/quote]Lets just get one thing straight between us Babes. When I watch games I notice things and then I check the stats to see if they back up my opinion. I noticed Doc was our best defender so I checked it out. I noticed we were a much better side for Fotheringhams contribution so I checked it out. I don''t form an opinion on the stats alone and neither do I form an opinion through somebody elses eyes. What to you base your opinions on?[/quote]Let''s get one other thing straight between us Nigel. I assume that you won''t do the stats because they don''t suit your opinion or prejudice. Now that''s either plain juvenile for an oldster or just plain Nutty.Step up, Nige! I dare you - again.OTBC Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nutty nigel 7,526 Posted January 3, 2008 Taylor / Shackell 7 games 9 conceded - av. 1.28 10 points won - av 1.42Doherty / Shackell 9 games 9 conceded av. 1 11 points won - av. 1.22Howabout you answering some of my questions now. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BlyBlyBabes 0 Posted January 4, 2008 Four important points to be emphasised about central defence are:(a) it is the best pairing from the resources available that is most important, not who the best two individual players are. It''s called understanding and chemistry. Forbes & Stringer, Bruce & Watson, MacKay & Fleming, Moore & Charlton et al.(b) the better each individual in the pairing can pass the ball out of defence (long or short), the better for teamwork.(c) the better each individual can pass the ball out of defence, the better the team can retain possession. After all you can''t create if you don''t have possession.(c) the less each individual gives away unnecessary fouls, the fewer opportunities the opposition has to score from set pieces.(d) the more goals an individual scores from corners and set pieces, the better it is for our results. (e) it is results that ultimately count - not goals conceded, nor goals scored.It is effective football that counts in the end. And it''s the pairing in central defence that counts most -rather than the particular individuals chosen. That pairing which yields the best points return - not that which concedes less goals.The most important stat in all cases is the maximum points yield: not the least goals conceded.It may well be that Taylor & Doherty are the best pairing - I don''t know. It may be that Doherty is our most effective centre-half, if not our most elegant - I dont know. But I feel that Glenn Roeder knows.And that''s what really matters.One love.OTBC Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Citizen Journalist Foghorn 0 Posted January 4, 2008 [quote user="nutty nigel"]Taylor / Shackell 7 games 9 conceded - av. 1.28 10 points won - av 1.42Doherty / Shackell 9 games 9 conceded av. 1 11 points won - av. 1.22Howabout you answering some of my questions now. [/quote]So we won more points with Taylor at the back, and he improved with each match.Sounds good to me, after the last couple of seasons disastrous goals against column we could do with picking him up asap. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nutty nigel 7,526 Posted January 4, 2008 [quote user="BlyBlyBabes"]Why does Shackell play so much better alongside Martin Taylor than alongside Gary Doherty?Step up Nutty Nigel. Let''s hear from you as the board ''expert'' on central defenders.OTBCP.S. I bet you Nutty argues that my assertion is not true. Shhhhhhhh.......[/quote]Having found it neccessary to start a condescending thread in this manner, stop moving the goal posts to fit your agenda and move back to the original post and explain to me what you have seen that makes you believe Shackell plays so much better beside Martin Taylor. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nutty nigel 7,526 Posted January 4, 2008 [quote user="Citizen Journalist Foghorn"][quote user="nutty nigel"] Taylor / Shackell 7 games 9 conceded - av. 1.28 10 points won - av 1.42Doherty / Shackell 9 games 9 conceded av. 1 11 points won - av. 1.22Howabout you answering some of my questions now. [/quote]So we won more points with Taylor at the back, and he improved with each match.Sounds good to me, after the last couple of seasons disastrous goals against column we could do with picking him up asap.[/quote]At no point have I suggested that we shouldn''t sign Taylor. The only point I have made is that in my opinion the midfield and goalscoring is still the priority because without Fotheringham we play too much long ball whoever is playing central defence and we are not scoring enough goals when we have possession. The defence as performed adequately all season. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nutty nigel 7,526 Posted January 6, 2008 [quote user="nutty nigel"][quote user="BlyBlyBabes"] Why does Shackell play so much better alongside Martin Taylor than alongside Gary Doherty?Step up Nutty Nigel. Let''s hear from you as the board ''expert'' on central defenders.OTBCP.S. I bet you Nutty argues that my assertion is not true. Shhhhhhhh.......[/quote]Having found it neccessary to start a condescending thread in this manner, stop moving the goal posts to fit your agenda and move back to the original post and explain to me what you have seen that makes you believe Shackell plays so much better beside Martin Taylor. [/quote]Step up to the plate Babes old son.. it is your thread after all. Surely you can try to muster some sort of answer to yet another question you choose to ignore.You do remind me of Major Gowan [~][W] "Have the papers arrived yet, Fawlty?"[O][D] Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BlyBlyBabes 0 Posted January 6, 2008 [quote user="nutty nigel"][quote user="nutty nigel"][quote user="BlyBlyBabes"] Why does Shackell play so much better alongside Martin Taylor than alongside Gary Doherty?Step up Nutty Nigel. Let''s hear from you as the board ''expert'' on central defenders.OTBCP.S. I bet you Nutty argues that my assertion is not true. Shhhhhhhh.......[/quote]Having found it neccessary to start a condescending thread in this manner, stop moving the goal posts to fit your agenda and move back to the original post and explain to me what you have seen that makes you believe Shackell plays so much better beside Martin Taylor.[/quote]Step up to the plate Babes old son.. it is your thread after all. Surely you can try to muster some sort of answer to yet another question you choose to ignore.You do remind me of Major Gowan [~][W] "Have the papers arrived yet, Fawlty?"[O][D][/quote]I''ll give you a clue Nutty. Ever hear of iPass?They seek him here, they seek him thereThose Nutty Posters seek him everywhereIs he in heaven or is he in hell?That damned elusive BlyBlyBabesHe meddles with the cousin''s ''Revolution''Popping in and out each weekSpoiling every lovely executionLa, what cheek! They seek him here, they seek him thereThose Nutty Posters seek him everywhereIf you should see him, please do give a yell!That damned elusive BlyBlyBabesThey seek him here, they seek him thereThose Nutty Posters seek him everywhereOh, Babes, how the Nutties do implore youSimply to stay home in bedWith all your interferenceIt''s a chore to chop a head! They seek him here, they seek him thereThe ladies seek him everywhere!He gives poor Nigel nothing but frustrationSink me! He''s a spoilsportEach and every damned decapitationHe cuts short They seek him here, they seek him thereThose Nutty Posters seek him everywhereIs he in heaven or is he in hell?That damned elusive BlyBlyBabes.[B]OTBC Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mister Chops 7 Posted January 6, 2008 I think you''ve got him, Nigel. Game, set, match. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cheerio 0 Posted January 6, 2008 Communication I suspect.Though personally I have always thought Shackell a complete liability. Docs just a partial liability Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nutty nigel 7,526 Posted January 6, 2008 [quote user="Mister Chops"]I think you''ve got him, Nigel. Game, set, match.[/quote]D''oliveira made a hundred [D] [;)] Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
arrdee 2 Posted January 6, 2008 [quote user="Mister Chops"]I think you''ve got him, Nigel. Game, set, match.[/quote] Yep you have nailed him Nutty . We can all hear the old scaly tail squealing , which way is he going to turn now ? Is he going to scuttle down the side of a wall and down a bolt hole? [;)][:D] arrdee. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BlyBlyBabes 0 Posted January 6, 2008 I love iPass.They can find me everywhere and nowhere.Now you''ve got him now you don''tThat damned elusive .................!!Bye Bye nutties[st][um][ap][ip][B][|-)]OTBCP.S. I must agree that Selhurst Park is still a dump, but dinner on the London - Norwich train is stll rather good and more than makes up for it.Toodle-oo.Ahhhhhhh...........conundrums[:)] Share this post Link to post Share on other sites