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Hardhouse44

What the f........

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So who is talking Bulls**t?. Karren Brady or are our club trying to lead us up the garden path??

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[quote user="Sons of Boadicea"]Ricardo - So let me get this right, you believe the newspaper article quoting Karen Brady, yet you disbelieve the newspaper article quoting Glen Roeder, why is that exactly?, as I fail to see the logic......[/quote]

Cos we''ve never been lied to have we.

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And birmingham are the club with the best record on transfer dealings arn''t they....  instead of second worst and fond of dodgy dealings according to a tribunal.

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[quote user="Vern "]So who is talking Bulls**t?. Karren Brady or are our club trying to lead us up the garden path??[/quote]

The real point is whether the board have led Glenn Roeder up the garden path by telling him they made a firm offer when they didn''t. 

It''s not unknown for the board of a football club to be less than totally frank with their manager, but I simply can''t believe that ours would risk losing Glenn Roeder at such an early stage by doing anything so stupid and underhand. 

Now that this has become public, it needs to be cleared up as soon as possible with a simple, clear and unambiguous statement from the board, not Munbyesque gobbledegook about "every effort possible" and "working hard together to extend Martin''s loan". 

No doubt one of Archant''s finest will be on the case to clarify what exactly has happened.  Did the board make a firm offer of a permanent deal for Martin Taylor as Glenn Roeder has stated?  Yes or No.  It''s that simple. 

 

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[quote user="Fat Prophet"]

[quote user="Vern "]So who is talking Bulls**t?. Karren Brady or are our club trying to lead us up the garden path??[/quote]

The real point is whether the board have led Glenn Roeder up the garden path by telling him they made a firm offer when they didn''t. 

It''s not unknown for the board of a football club to be less than totally frank with their manager, but I simply can''t believe that ours would risk losing Glenn Roeder at such an early stage by doing anything so stupid and underhand. 

Now that this has become public, it needs to be cleared up as soon as possible with a simple, clear and unambiguous statement from the board, not Munbyesque gobbledegook about "every effort possible" and "working hard together to extend Martin''s loan". 

No doubt one of Archant''s finest will be on the case to clarify what exactly has happened.  Did the board make a firm offer of a permanent deal for Martin Taylor as Glenn Roeder has stated?  Yes or No.  It''s that simple. 

 

[/quote]

Of course what makes it even more annoying is that if Sharon Turner went without her housekeeping money for just one week we could have signed Taylor and Karren Brady aswell

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Must say, this is very worrying. Somebody is blatantly lying. I just hope it''s Brum.

If I was Glenn, I''d be on to Brady straight away.

Time for the Pink''un to do a bit of investigative reporting, methinks

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[quote user="Sons of Boadicea"]Ricardo - So let me get this right, you believe the newspaper article quoting Karen Brady, yet you disbelieve the newspaper article quoting Glen Roeder, why is that exactly?, as I fail to see the logic......[/quote]

Where did Roeder say he had matched Q.P.R.''s offer.

Or for that matter what offer did we make. I read of none in either report.

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[quote user="ricardo"]

Where did Roeder say he had matched Q.P.R.''s offer.

Or for that matter what offer did we make. I read of none in either report.

[/quote]

What has the QPR offer got to do with it?

Brady says we didnt make an offer, Roeder quite clearly says we did:

"I am very comfortable that the board made every effort they could to make Martin Taylor''s loan signing a permanent one,” Roeder told the club''s official web site. “We had great difficulty getting a financial agreement with Karren Brady and Birmingham City, who stuck rigidly to their valuation of Martin. Our firm offer for Martin to become a permanent member of the squad at Norwich City was simply turned down by Karren Brady. I felt it was an excellent offer and was both surprised and disappointed when it was rejected."

I guess you believe who you like, but its a pretty sad situation when you would believe Brady and Sullivan rather than someone like Roeder - and to think that some people on here thought that Brady and Sullivan would be an improvement on our board.

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[quote user="Creative Midfielder"][quote user="ricardo"]

Where did Roeder say he had matched Q.P.R.''s offer.

Or for that matter what offer did we make. I read of none in either report.

[/quote]

What has the QPR offer got to do with it?

Brady says we didnt make an offer, Roeder quite clearly says we did:

"I am very comfortable that the board made every effort they could to make Martin Taylor''s loan signing a permanent one,” Roeder told the club''s official web site. “We had great difficulty getting a financial agreement with Karren Brady and Birmingham City, who stuck rigidly to their valuation of Martin. Our firm offer for Martin to become a permanent member of the squad at Norwich City was simply turned down by Karren Brady. I felt it was an excellent offer and was both surprised and disappointed when it was rejected."

I guess you believe who you like, but its a pretty sad situation when you would believe Brady and Sullivan rather than someone like Roeder - and to think that some people on here thought that Brady and Sullivan would be an improvement on our board.

[/quote]so who are people supposed to believe, we have one person saying that a offer was made and the club that owns taylors contract saying no offer was made, but hold on people are leaving one key fact out, taylor mentioned he was very upset that norwich werent able to make a move for him,so whats the official storydid we make a move and birmingham didnt tell taylor, did we make a move and roeder wasnt informed, or didnt we make a move for him

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I suspect Brady wasn''t listening to offers as she had set her price based upon what QPR offered.

This is all a bit of jousting and jostling and I am standing by Roeder.

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To me it''s looking like:

Roeder wants Tiny, Tiny wants NCFC. Roeder knows his transfer budget - has done from day one. He wants 3 or 4 players (at least) - including a striker in the Ameobi class.

Brady wants top dollar for Tiny (obviously). QPR have (allegedly) bid £1.25 mil., but Tiny doesn''t want to go.

So it would appear that matching QPR would blow an unacceptably large hole in Glenn''s budget.

On that basis I reckon that the budget - which he agreed - is £2mil. to £3 mil ish, he''s bid about £500k for Tiny & is hoping Tiny holds out for the move in Jan.

All a bit risky, but in his position probably the best option.

Why has Brady denied there was a bid though? Could it be part of the negotiation stance "so paltry I didn''t even consider it"?

Any other guesses?

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Some of the comments from the usual suspects on this forum suggest little experience in the area of negotiations. You only have to view key negotiations that are taking place on the world stage to understand that both sides of an issue often take positions that are often deliberately vague so as to see what emrges from the other that otherwise might not be revealed. If I were responsible for negotiations at either Norwich or Birmingham ( or any other club for that matter ) I would apply my negotiating techniques in a different manner situation to situation, depending upon the circumstances. 

Rudolph has given in two short sentences what the likely situation is but I will be long-winded in comparison for those of you who are not astute enough to understand what is implicit in Rudolph''s comments and need a yellow brick road. In this case, for example, if I were the Birmingham negotiator, knowing that Taylor has done reasonably well at Norwich during a short loan period and that the transfer window is around the corner and I have interest from elsewhere, I could have seen the conversation with Norwich going something like this:

Norwich initial call: "We''d like to extend Martin''s loan period through the remainder of the season or, failing that being agreeable to you, at least until the end of December, at which point we would consider making an offer for a permanent transfer."

Birmingham response: "Well, thanks for the call and your interest. We are reviewing our needs at Birmingham on a number of fronts over the next couple of days. I''m pretty certain that a loan for the remainder of the season won''t fit our plans however. I would suggest you call us back three days from now with a view to what you are prepared to offer should we be prepared to entertain the prospect of a permanent move."

Norwich call ( three days later ): "Have you considered the possibility of loaning Martin for the remainder of the season?"

Birmingham: "Yes, I can confirm there is no interest on our part of extending the loan for any period of time. We will only consider offers for a permanent transfer."

Norwich: "What is the amount you are seeking for a permanent transfer?"

Birmingham: "Well, you''ve had an opportunity to evaluate Martin. What value would you place on him?"

Norwich: " Given that Martin has not been able to command a place in your side which, arguably, you''re having to fight hard to avoid relegation from the Premiership, we think a million pounds would be a very fair offer."

Birmingham: "Well, In that case, I have to advise you that we would not even entertain consideration of an offer for that amount. We already have a bid on the table that is at least 25% higher than that and, further, there is interest from a number of clubs. Therefore, Martin will need to return to Birmingham at the end of his current loan period. If you have further interest in Martin at valuation levels we would give consideration to please feel free to contact us as we move toward the transfer window."   

Now, of course, the above is pure speculation on my part. However, I would suggest there is merit in such a scenario not being far off the mark. Birmingham are in the drivers seat. They need to give funds to their new manager to give themselves the best chance of remaining in the Premiership. Their anticipated takeover has not gone through yet ( if it ever does ). They may well be on the hook to The Scottish FA for compensation for their newly acquired manager to the tune of 400-500,000 pounds. Putting on my negotiating hat again and, if I were now looking at it from the Norwich perspective, I would not want to enter into what could only become a bidding war and , even if I were successful, end up being the party that compensates indirectly the Scottish FA.

In any event, can some other posters at least see from my hypothetical scenario, how Norwich and Birmingham could both make a claim that appears to contradict each other, but both believe they are correct. Norwich responded to what Birmingham asked them as far as a valuation. Birmingham said they would not even consider offers below X, call back if you are prepared to offer a level that we would give consideration to. For some posters to suggest a simple statement is required to Norwich fans is, quite frankly, just silly. A statement of clarification will be made when it''s in the best interest of the negotiators to do so, not when posters on this forum or fans would like to hear it.

 

 

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brady said something correctly - that taylor has talent and has attracted the interest of other clubs (us and QPR) -  as QPR looks to have offered serious dosh and been rejected, surely its in the best interest of brum to hold out for similar figures from other parties, probably in the jan window - where they could generate an auction for him.  with the qpr interest, its clear we won''t get taylor on the cheap - cos wouldn''t we have to match qpr''s valuation (ie pay a premium) to  secure his services ahead of when the transfer window opens and when other clubs could also bid for him???tellingly, brady has stirred the pot, by suggesting no offer has been received by city to but taylor - just an approach to extend his loan period.  if this is to be believed, then this probably explains why taylor is back at brum.  becuase why would brum release him to us until the end of dec, when we have made no formal approach to buy him???  either this, or an informal appraoch has been made bu city, that falls way short of brums (and qpr''s) market valuation.  however, if no other buyer''s materialise in the jan window, then our offer would be the market price, and brum would probably sell for that.  by then, without his presence in our defence, we could still be heavily invloved in a rtransfer dogfight, rather than climbing the table to safety - imo.

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N.Doncaster: "So how much are you talking for this Taylor chap if we keep him on loan and buy him in January?"

K.Brady: "Well QPR have bid £1.2million, you`re going to have to match that."

N.Doncaster: "Errrrr,bye...."

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[quote user="YankeeCanary"]

 

Norwich call ( three days later ): "Have you considered the possibility of loaning Martin for the remainder of the season?"

Birmingham: "Yes, I can confirm there is no interest on our part of extending the loan for any period of time. We will only consider offers for a permanent transfer."

Norwich: "What is the amount you are seeking for a permanent transfer?"

Birmingham: "Well, you''ve had an opportunity to evaluate Martin. What value would you place on him?"

Norwich: " Given that Martin has not been able to command a place in your side which, arguably, you''re having to fight hard to avoid relegation from the Premiership, we think a million pounds would be a very fair offer."

Birmingham: "Well, In that case, I have to advise you that we would not even entertain consideration of an offer for that amount. We already have a bid on the table that is at least 25% higher than that and, further, there is interest from a number of clubs. Therefore, Martin will need to return to Birmingham at the end of his current loan period. If you have further interest in Martin at valuation levels we would give consideration to please feel free to contact us as we move toward the transfer window."   

[/quote]

Yes! that sounds spot on to me - nobody''s actually lying, just being very cagey, very guarded, as I would expect them to be. I might question the £1 mil. opener though.

Very astute & intelligent post as always, YC.  Remind me to ask your advice next time I''m buying a house!

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[quote user="YankeeCanary"]

In any event, can some other posters at least see from my hypothetical scenario, how Norwich and Birmingham could both make a claim that appears to contradict each other, but both believe they are correct. Norwich responded to what Birmingham asked them as far as a valuation. Birmingham said they would not even consider offers below X, call back if you are prepared to offer a level that we would give consideration to. For some posters to suggest a simple statement is required to Norwich fans is, quite frankly, just silly. A statement of clarification will be made when it''s in the best interest of the negotiators to do so, not when posters on this forum or fans would like to hear it.

[/quote]

Come down off your high horse Yankee.  All I was suggesting was that the board try using plain English instead of calling a spade a handheld excavation device.  

If as you suggest some sort of Machiavellian negotiations are in progress, it could be argued that Munby''s convoluted gobbledegook has played into Brady''s hands by enabling her to drive a wedge between Glenn and the board, because it doesn''t say in so many words that they are both singing from the same hymnsheet.  He waffles on about "making every effort" and "extending Martin''s loan" and doesn''t mention a permanent deal. 

The comments to which Karren Brady has responded were made on the club''s official website, primarily for the fans'' consumption.  If they were meant to be a negotiating tactic they''ve effectively drawn the fans into those negotiations.  We have a right to know what''s going on and who, if anyone, is being economical with the truth.

All of which is a longwinded way of saying that your post is a load of apologist garbage Yankee, and that''s being kind. . . .

 

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I believe Kazzer Brady because she''s well tasty.......oh, and because I don''t like Donkster or the rest of the board. (And never will).[N]

But, it''s only my personal opinion.[:|]

PS I like Yankee''s post''s........Just slightly more interesting than yesterday''s game.[|-)]

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[quote user="lucky green trainers"]brady said something correctly - that taylor has talent and has attracted the interest of other clubs (us and QPR) -  as QPR looks to have offered serious dosh and been rejected, surely its in the best interest of brum to hold out for similar figures from other parties, probably in the jan window - where they could generate an auction for him.  with the qpr interest, its clear we won''t get taylor on the cheap - cos wouldn''t we have to match qpr''s valuation (ie pay a premium) to  secure his services ahead of when the transfer window opens and when other clubs could also bid for him???

tellingly, brady has stirred the pot, by suggesting no offer has been received by city to but taylor - just an approach to extend his loan period.  if this is to be believed, then this probably explains why taylor is back at brum.  becuase why would brum release him to us until the end of dec, when we have made no formal approach to buy him???  either this, or an informal appraoch has been made bu city, that falls way short of brums (and qpr''s) market valuation. 

however, if no other buyer''s materialise in the jan window, then our offer would be the market price, and brum would probably sell for that.  by then, without his presence in our defence, we could still be heavily invloved in a rtransfer dogfight, rather than climbing the table to safety - imo.
[/quote]

I can''t understand why our board and manager are so upset that QPR don''t want to let Martin Taylor go on the cheap.  What do they expect?  For Brum to just give away the player for peanuts?

As for the extended loan, what do we expect, they are now looking to sell the player in January, so do not want him getting injured during the hectic xmas period.

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[quote user="Fat Prophet"]

Come down off your high horse Yankee.  All I was suggesting was that the board try using plain English instead of calling a spade a handheld excavation device.  

If as you suggest some sort of Machiavellian negotiations are in progress, it could be argued that Munby''s convoluted gobbledegook has played into Brady''s hands by enabling her to drive a wedge between Glenn and the board, because it doesn''t say in so many words that they are both singing from the same hymnsheet.  He waffles on about "making every effort" and "extending Martin''s loan" and doesn''t mention a permanent deal. 

The comments to which Karren Brady has responded were made on the club''s official website, primarily for the fans'' consumption.  If they were meant to be a negotiating tactic they''ve effectively drawn the fans into those negotiations.  We have a right to know what''s going on and who, if anyone, is being economical with the truth.

All of which is a longwinded way of saying that your post is a load of apologist garbage Yankee, and that''s being kind. . . .

 

[/quote]

Yes, you''ve persuaded  me, FP. Glenn is a deluded chump, in thrall to the oily charms of Doncaster. And , yes, you have a right to know everything. Perhaps we could have a webcam installed in Mr. Doncaster''s office? And the toilets, in case he tries a sneaky call on his mobile?

Remind me not to ask your advice when I''m buying a house.

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[quote user="Mr.Carrow"]

N.Doncaster: "So how much are you talking for this Taylor chap if we keep him on loan and buy him in January?"

K.Brady: "Well QPR have bid £1.2million, you`re going to have to match that."

N.Doncaster: "Errrrr,bye...."

[/quote]

Ha ha, that''s excellent! Presumably he then picks up the phone again and dials the number of Macclesfield Town FC...

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[quote user="ron obvious"][quote user="Fat Prophet"]

Come down off your high horse Yankee.  All I was suggesting was that the board try using plain English instead of calling a spade a handheld excavation device.  

If as you suggest some sort of Machiavellian negotiations are in progress, it could be argued that Munby''s convoluted gobbledegook has played into Brady''s hands by enabling her to drive a wedge between Glenn and the board, because it doesn''t say in so many words that they are both singing from the same hymnsheet.  He waffles on about "making every effort" and "extending Martin''s loan" and doesn''t mention a permanent deal. 

The comments to which Karren Brady has responded were made on the club''s official website, primarily for the fans'' consumption.  If they were meant to be a negotiating tactic they''ve effectively drawn the fans into those negotiations.  We have a right to know what''s going on and who, if anyone, is being economical with the truth.

All of which is a longwinded way of saying that your post is a load of apologist garbage Yankee, and that''s being kind. . . .

 

[/quote]

Yes, you''ve persuaded  me, FP. Glenn is a deluded chump, in thrall to the oily charms of Doncaster. And , yes, you have a right to know everything. Perhaps we could have a webcam installed in Mr. Doncaster''s office? And the toilets, in case he tries a sneaky call on his mobile?

Remind me not to ask your advice when I''m buying a house.

[/quote]

HEY! I''d certainly not ask for the Donkster''s advice in any financial decisions concerning my money.....Do you have a ''Donkster Dolly'' ''Pffraap'' ''Guff'' ''Pump''.......ron?[:|] 

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[quote user="ron obvious"][quote user="Fat Prophet"]

Come down off your high horse Yankee.  All I was suggesting was that the board try using plain English instead of calling a spade a handheld excavation device.  

If as you suggest some sort of Machiavellian negotiations are in progress, it could be argued that Munby''s convoluted gobbledegook has played into Brady''s hands by enabling her to drive a wedge between Glenn and the board, because it doesn''t say in so many words that they are both singing from the same hymnsheet.  He waffles on about "making every effort" and "extending Martin''s loan" and doesn''t mention a permanent deal. 

The comments to which Karren Brady has responded were made on the club''s official website, primarily for the fans'' consumption.  If they were meant to be a negotiating tactic they''ve effectively drawn the fans into those negotiations.  We have a right to know what''s going on and who, if anyone, is being economical with the truth.

All of which is a longwinded way of saying that your post is a load of apologist garbage Yankee, and that''s being kind. . . .

 

[/quote]

Yes, you''ve persuaded  me, FP. Glenn is a deluded chump, in thrall to the oily charms of Doncaster. And , yes, you have a right to know everything. Perhaps we could have a webcam installed in Mr. Doncaster''s office? And the toilets, in case he tries a sneaky call on his mobile?

Remind me not to ask your advice when I''m buying a house.

[/quote]

You can have it anyway fwiw.  Work your arse off for ten years, make sacrifices and get the mortgage paid off.  That''s what I did and it changed my life for ever.

 

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[quote user="ron obvious"][quote user="Fat Prophet"]

Come down off your high horse Yankee.  All I was suggesting was that the board try using plain English instead of calling a spade a handheld excavation device.  

If as you suggest some sort of Machiavellian negotiations are in progress, it could be argued that Munby''s convoluted gobbledegook has played into Brady''s hands by enabling her to drive a wedge between Glenn and the board, because it doesn''t say in so many words that they are both singing from the same hymnsheet.  He waffles on about "making every effort" and "extending Martin''s loan" and doesn''t mention a permanent deal. 

The comments to which Karren Brady has responded were made on the club''s official website, primarily for the fans'' consumption.  If they were meant to be a negotiating tactic they''ve effectively drawn the fans into those negotiations.  We have a right to know what''s going on and who, if anyone, is being economical with the truth.

All of which is a longwinded way of saying that your post is a load of apologist garbage Yankee, and that''s being kind. . . .

 

[/quote]

Yes, you''ve persuaded  me, FP. Glenn is a deluded chump, in thrall to the oily charms of Doncaster. And , yes, you have a right to know everything. Perhaps we could have a webcam installed in Mr. Doncaster''s office? And the toilets, in case he tries a sneaky call on his mobile?

[/quote]

What I said was based on Yankee''s conspiracy theory which imo is a load of paranoid nonsense, and your reaction to my comments just shows how ridiculous it actually is.  But there''s no need to twist my words. 

 

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[quote user="Fat Prophet"][quote user="ron obvious"][quote user="Fat Prophet"]

Come down off your high horse Yankee.  All I was suggesting was that the board try using plain English instead of calling a spade a handheld excavation device.  

If as you suggest some sort of Machiavellian negotiations are in progress, it could be argued that Munby''s convoluted gobbledegook has played into Brady''s hands by enabling her to drive a wedge between Glenn and the board, because it doesn''t say in so many words that they are both singing from the same hymnsheet.  He waffles on about "making every effort" and "extending Martin''s loan" and doesn''t mention a permanent deal. 

The comments to which Karren Brady has responded were made on the club''s official website, primarily for the fans'' consumption.  If they were meant to be a negotiating tactic they''ve effectively drawn the fans into those negotiations.  We have a right to know what''s going on and who, if anyone, is being economical with the truth.

All of which is a longwinded way of saying that your post is a load of apologist garbage Yankee, and that''s being kind. . . .

 

[/quote]

Yes, you''ve persuaded  me, FP. Glenn is a deluded chump, in thrall to the oily charms of Doncaster. And , yes, you have a right to know everything. Perhaps we could have a webcam installed in Mr. Doncaster''s office? And the toilets, in case he tries a sneaky call on his mobile?

Remind me not to ask your advice when I''m buying a house.

[/quote]

You can have it anyway fwiw.  Work your arse off for ten years, make sacrifices and get the mortgage paid off.  That''s what I did and it changed my life for ever.

[/quote]

I think you''re to be congratulated Fat Prophet. They are traits I admire. The ones that draw little admiration are the fire-spitting venom you feel obliged to discharge anytime you disagree with someone. Further, as to your "kind" assessment of my input as apologist garbage, I would encourage you to remove the word "kind" from your vocabulary because as with "negotiations" you don''t understand the meaning. Incidentally, I "worked my arse off" too and paid my mortgage off in one year. Big, expensive house too. You see, there''s always a better way if one has an open mind.

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Come on now boys, I''m sure both your houses are lovely.  Time to stop playing "who''s got the best house and paid it off fastest" now, I think, or it''ll be an early night for both of you.

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