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Get Off Doc's Back

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For those who go back far enough, please remember Duncan Forbes - probably the best £10,000 we have ever spent, but also looked awkward, and was frequently in  trouble with Referees. Yet he could head the ball brilliantly, and was great at the Hoof upfield, with a fair number of fouls to his name in every match he played. Also Malky fits that style of play although he has now got cult status. And Doc has similar qualities and weaknesses, if thats what they are. Shackell defends too far off his man, and loses most of the 50/50 headers, but Doc does a fair bit of holding admittedly but defends tight, and clears much better when under pressure. We all know the anti Doc brigade in the ground, as they are those who always look for any mistake however small to jeer, yet ignore his positive contributions, and there were significantly more positives last night. To say otherwise, demonstrates a bias which is patently unreasonable. I was staggered also to read elsewhere in this thread that he was the man to blame for the Plymouth goal. Hang on though, where were Shackell and Dion at the time?  Sadly that also further indicates the bias towards the Doc.

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agreed with getting off docs back, aside from Fozzy i thought he was the best player last night...

Darren Huckerby did nothing apart from dive to win a peno then score it.

Matthew Pattison did nothing...

Camara was awful! yet all these players get praised regularly...

Gary doherty is slow, Lumbery, doesnt score goals, and cant find a wingers little toe with a raking 80 yard lofted pass, but he did his job very well last night.

when Gary Doherty got injured we stopped winning games under Grant- FACT

We conded more goals with shacks in the side then we do with the doc in the side - FACT

Carling Opta stats have the Doc as our best defender - FACT

 our best defensive partnership, according to those stats is the doc and dion - FACT

our worst is shacks and the doc - FACT!

kind of makes a statement as to who the weak link possibly is in the defence doesnt it? and he isnt an established international, former premiership player.. he''s a home grown youngster who gets caught out of position far too easily..

who''s fault was the goal last night? Shacks (and Marshall)

jas :)

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I dont think Doc is a marmite player at all -I dont love him and want him to be better or to have a better alternative;  all i want is a bit of balance and what  we saw last night has been evident in many many games over the last 2 seasons - he played better than his central partner yet remains the only criticised player - the booing of his name pre game was shameful.   He is no better or worse than the alternatives - and as yet I havent seen anything in Tiny that makes me think he is a class above either Doc or Shax,  and certainly not last nights efforts.

By all means criticise Docs faults but also give praise when its due - and also recognise the sometimes laughable contribution of his colleagues. 

What would the crowd reaction been it had been doc and not shacks that had fallen on his backside when dealing with a routine ball??

 

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i was one who got on canary call saying doc was never man of match.  he wasnt great but he didnt have a poor game. the reason i get on his back is because he concedes so many free kicks around the box and hoofs the ball aimlessly forward too much.  we looked shaky with him back in the team.  thats only my opinion tho and if i disagree with some on here then so be it.

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[quote user="ZippersLeftFoot"]We certainly were not playing a 4-3-3 last night - it was a clear 4-4-2 and our midfield was second best,  which was why the back 4 had to end up playing stupid balls between themselves or simply hoicking the ball out or long.[/quote]heres your starting line up and formation for the game.                                      Marshall          Otsemobor   Doherty   Taylor   Camara                Fotherinham  Russell   Pattison                   Huckerby  Evans  Cureton    This is how they played the first 45. at times huck and cureton dropped into midfield making a 4-5-1 and times when hucks dropped back and made the 4-4-2 and if anyone spotted the tell tale switcheroo. Hucks and Pattison switching sides.  All in all this wasnt comfortable for the team.  the current team are so used to a 4-4-2 and still need training ground work to perfect this 4-3-3 attacking formation.  now this line up and formations were talked about by Roy Waller on Radio norfolk before the match when the team was announced. most of the guys around me in the stands were stunned by this set up but knew we played similar against stoke.

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[quote user="baldyboy"]i was one who got on canary call saying doc was never man of match.  he wasnt great but he didnt have a poor game. the reason i get on his back is because he concedes so many free kicks around the box and hoofs the ball aimlessly forward too much.  we looked shaky with him back in the team.  thats only my opinion tho and if i disagree with some on here then so be it.[/quote]

At least Doc did find a Norwich player with some passes. It''s a shame you didn''t find time to talk about Huckerby last night. I am convinced that he never once managed to find a City player. He chased around a bit more than normal, and even made a couple of tackles, but it was probably his worst performance ever.

 

 

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I really do feel sorry for the guy, he just can''t do anything right in some peoples eyes.

If he hoofs it upfield/into the stands he gets criticised and if he dares take a touch on it and tries to have a look around he gets stick for not putting his foot through the ball as soon as it comes to him him.

Last night does anybody remember when he had to take a freekick on the halfway line in the 2nd half? The one which ended up being worked back to Marshall. Doherty took his time on it and he was looking up and the longer he took the more vocal the people around me were becoming with the usual Doherty insults. And I sat there and I just thinking to myself if these people actually bother to look up the pitch they''ll realise (hopefully) that the Doc has got nothing to hit, if he''d have booted the ball up the park Plymouth would have picked it off and it would have come straight back at us.

There was another moment when the guy dribbed the ball across the pitch for a couple of yards, he wanted to have a little think about it and see what options were on for him, which was just sensible football. But oh no...the usual jeers come out from some parts of the crowd.

I mean people criticise the Doc for his supposed erratic play and poor distribution but if the crowd get on his back everytime he touches the ball what do they expect is going to happen? You reap what you sow.

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For me it was defintely a 442 - hux stayed wide right with Cureton off Evans - why would/how could pattison and hux swap flanks if its a 433, the positions and roles are entirely different? In a  451 that is possible but evans was not a lone striker in any sense of the word.  The pink report also suggests it was a midfield 4.

 

Anyone else at the ground care to comment?

 

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Imagine a defensive crisis forcing you, as manager, to play a youth team central defender who you know is not quite ready. What would you tell them? Probably to get in the way as much as you can, not to take any chances, and to hoof the ball into row z at the first sign of any danger. That''s about all Doc is good for. Doc played OK the other night by his own standards but was certainly no man of the match. And if we ever do get ourselves out of trouble, Doc is not a player that is ever going to help us progress.

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Agreed Zipper, looked like a 4-4-2 to me.  Just a shame that the wingers weren''t looking for the early ball square, 3 or 4 times, Huckerby, Croft, Semmy even, got into a great passing position with Evans or Cureton just looking for an early pass along the floor, for the winger to carry on, head down, towards the by-line for a cross.  At one point Semmy threw in a step-over rather than just punt the ball into the middle.  Very frustrating, but off-topic.  [:)]  So yeah, looked like a 4-4-2 to me.

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Absolutely disgusted by the booing of the Doc when the team line-ups were named.  He has raised his game this season and has made less errors than any of his central defensive partners. I agree with Nutty that his clumsy awkward style of play hides the fact he is effective if not great at this level.

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[quote user="Citizen Journalist Foghorn"]Absolutely disgusted by the booing of the Doc when the team line-ups were named.  He has raised his game this season and has made less errors than any of his central defensive partners. I agree with Nutty that his clumsy awkward style of play hides the fact he is effective if not great at this level.[/quote]

Less errors CJF? really? cop his latest wanderings:

http://www.football.virginmedia.com/page/championshipvideo/0,,12555~1184243,00.html

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[quote user="Citizen Journalist Foghorn"]Absolutely disgusted by the booing of the Doc when the team line-ups were named.  He has raised his game this season and has made less errors than any of his central defensive partners. I agree with Nutty that his clumsy awkward style of play hides the fact he is effective if not great at this level.[/quote]

Less errors CJF? really? cop his latest wanderings:

http://www.football.virginmedia.com/page/championshipvideo/0,,12555~1184243,00.html

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[quote user="1st Wizard"]

[quote user="Citizen Journalist Foghorn"]Absolutely disgusted by the booing of the Doc when the team line-ups were named.  He has raised his game this season and has made less errors than any of his central defensive partners. I agree with Nutty that his clumsy awkward style of play hides the fact he is effective if not great at this level.[/quote]

Less errors CJF? really? cop his latest wanderings:

http://www.football.virginmedia.com/page/championshipvideo/0,,12555~1184243,00.html

[/quote]

Hmm, does anyone remember when Dublin cost us two goals against Cardiff and we lost the match? Didn''t get much stick for that did he? But Doherty costs us one goal, and a goal which was only a consolation, and some people slaughter him.

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[quote user="Graham Humphrey"][quote user="1st Wizard"]

[quote user="Citizen Journalist Foghorn"]Absolutely disgusted by the booing of the Doc when the team line-ups were named.  He has raised his game this season and has made less errors than any of his central defensive partners. I agree with Nutty that his clumsy awkward style of play hides the fact he is effective if not great at this level.[/quote]

Less errors CJF? really? cop his latest wanderings:

http://www.football.virginmedia.com/page/championshipvideo/0,,12555~1184243,00.html

[/quote]

Hmm, does anyone remember when Dublin cost us two goals against Cardiff and we lost the match? Didn''t get much stick for that did he? But Doherty costs us one goal, and a goal which was only a consolation, and some people slaughter him.

[/quote]Quite. I''m sure if you analyse goals conceded, for 95%+ of these somebody in the defending team will be at fault somewhere along the line. With Norwich, it seems a lot of people only notice this when the Doc is immediately at fault to vindicate their biased view points.

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At least Doc did find a Norwich player with some passes. It''s a shame you didn''t find time to talk about Huckerby last night. I am convinced that he never once managed to find a City player. He chased around a bit more than normal, and even made a couple of tackles, but it was probably his worst performance ever.

 

I think that just about perfectly sums it all up; Doc is a limited player, but give me the likes of him any day in preference to someone like Hucks who really is well past his best. But it does seem as if City "supporters" have to have their scapegoat and unfortunately Doc''s your man.

 

Tony

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[quote user="1st Wizard"]

Less errors CJF? really? cop his latest wanderings:

http://www.football.virginmedia.com/page/championshipvideo/0,,12555~1184243,00.html

[/quote]

FOOTBALLER IN "MAKES A MISTAKE" SHOCKER!!!!

Who''d have thought?!! Because Shackell isn''t making regular mistakes, then? And Dublin, and Huckerby? And Cureton didn''t cost us the Ipswich game, with his horrible misses?

SO WHY DON''T THEY GET BOOED BEFORE KICK OFF?

The simple fact is people believe what they want, not what they see.

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I''m sorry, but for me  Doc wasn''t that great. He needs to keep his arms down off the opponant. Time after time he is gonna get punished by the ref for needless free-kicks. There is a difference between using the arm to protect yourself and/or hold off someone, and using the arms to hold them down and cuddle them.

Also for me, two or three times in the second half Otsemober laid the ball back to Doc who was so indecisive with what to do with it he looked akward and not in control, which causes me great concern. He also took a couple of free kicks, one in the first half he dithered and looked unsure where to play it or who to, and just hoofed the ball down the pitch and out for goal kick.

To be fair to the Doc though, he made a couple of great blocks, tackles and clearances in the second half when it mattered.

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[quote user="lucky green trainers"]doc and shacks out - taylor and davenport in.

dream on maybe - but that prem ambition for me. 


[/quote]

If Taylor is prem class, then how come he doesn''t look that great in a side second bottom in the Championship?

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Taylor and Davenport prem ambition? 

Taylor was second best to doc on tuesday and Davenport was also outperformed by Doc in EVERY game he partnered him when here on loan a couple of seasons ago.

as djc states doc is not great, and he plays ugly football;  but that is championship defending,  it is ugly and for the last two seasons he has been our most effective defender, statistcially gaining us more points and costing us less goals than any other defender or pairing.  Give me effective over stylish looking any game.

But most crucially not one of the alternatives mentioned (shax, dion, taylor, davenport)  is better.

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i actually agree with those on here who said hux was worse than doc.  didnt get time to say it on RN as was calling about Doc. but as many on here point out a lot of people wont hear a word against hux, but Tues was first time we won this season with him in starting line up!

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[quote user="ZippersLeftFoot"]

Taylor and Davenport prem ambition? 

Taylor was second best to doc on tuesday and Davenport was also outperformed by Doc in EVERY game he partnered him when here on loan a couple of seasons ago.

as djc states doc is not great, and he plays ugly football;  but that is championship defending,  it is ugly and for the last two seasons he has been our most effective defender, statistcially gaining us more points and costing us less goals than any other defender or pairing.  Give me effective over stylish looking any game.

But most crucially not one of the alternatives mentioned (shax, dion, taylor, davenport)  is better.

[/quote]sure, every partner with the doc looks ropey cos they have to cover for him (2 positions) - roeder alludes to this when he says that when playing with taylor shax can feully concentrate soley on his role.  given a choice, i believe roeder would pick taylor over the doc 9 times outa 10.  according to the stats the doc may be the best defender, but in a failing defence, that couldn''t avoid prem relegation or get us to top 6 for the past 2 seasons - that doesn''t necessarily equate to much.  this season has been a mare - despiet the doc looking better!!! how can this be?? agree ZLF - taylor had a poor game on tuesday, but maybe his mind was elsewhere - given the pending contract issues.  given his pedigree with brum - he doesn''t have to prove himself to anyone.  he has the experience to get us up.for me - city''s defensive unit had a good run, but needed wholesale changes in the summer.  if taylor had arrived then, who Knows???we need a winning combo - like bruce/watson, malky/flemming.  for me the doc isn''t a winner for city.   i''d have taylor/davenport here like a shot!!!

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[quote user="baldyboy"]i actually agree with those on here who said hux was worse than doc.  didnt get time to say it on RN as was calling about Doc. but as many on here point out a lot of people wont hear a word against hux, but Tues was first time we won this season with him in starting line up![/quote]

Except the Crystal Palace game.

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I notice the thread is called "Get Off Docs Back". I cant even get on his back until Sturday when he puts his saddle back on !!

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[quote user="lucky green trainers"]

agree ZLF - taylor had a poor game on tuesday, but maybe his mind was elsewhere - given the pending contract issues.  given his pedigree with brum - he doesn''t have to prove himself to anyone.  he has the experience to get us up.

[/quote]

So how come Taylor gets to be crap "because his mind is elsewhere" but the Doc has to play perfectly with no mistakes (like er ..... er ......... erm ..... sorry, name me another footballer that doesn''t make mistakes?) even though his name is booed before kick off??? You just don''t like him. Face it, it''s a personal dislike - just as it is with pretty much everyone else that dislikes him. Cos there ain''t no facts to backup your point!!!

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[quote user="Mook"]So how come Taylor gets to be crap "because his mind is elsewhere" but the Doc has to play perfectly with no mistakes (like er ..... er ......... erm ..... sorry, name me another footballer that doesn''t make mistakes?) even though his name is booed before kick off??? You just don''t like him. Face it, it''s a personal dislike - just as it is with pretty much everyone else that dislikes him. Cos there ain''t no facts to backup your point!!![/quote]

Welcome to the sweeping generalisation club, Mook will be your host, as he clearly explains your own (and everyone elses) opinion to you as being wrong - because at times it''s difficult to provide facts to justify it.

Sorry Mook, but you don''t need to have facts to express an opinion, nor do facts actually make an opinion correct.

If for example you took a top class side who are known for defending well, and stuck Doherty in there, they may not concede any more than usual, but if that was the case would that suddenly make him a top class defender, or are the other players of sufficient ability to be able to cover his inadequacies? On pure stats alone we''d never know, and usually in regards to football, stats are the only real facts available.

In 20 years time, the history books will simply show a result, not a long, drawn out review of how each side and their players performed, so it''s not all black and white.

Quite how anyone can have a personal dislike for a player is beyond me, unless they''ve personally met them to reach this conclusion, or have first hand evidence of some of their actions on a personal level that they totally disagree with. I have nothing personal against Doherty, but I simply don''t rate the guy - at least not as a defender. I''m one of the odd few who never really understood why he got shuffled back into defence, when he was clearly far more effective for both Spurs and Ireland as a forward. This still doesn''t mean I want him playing, albeit in a strikers role, as I think we have better.

Doherty clearly employs a far more ''hands-on'' approach defensively, which does often result in a free kick being given. He does have poor distribution skills, and he''s not the quickest player out there. The key role for ANY defender should be to prevent the opposition from scoring by effectively marking them, and then making a similarly effective tackle which results in the ball going safely away from goal, if possible into our possession, and not fouling the opposition in the attempt. This being said, how can Doherty be defended from this perspective?

Yes, he does get some harsh treatment at times, but people have developed this viewpoint over time, often based upon performances they have personally seen. He doesn''t inspire confidence in his team-mates, he hasn''t helped Shackell develop despite his Premiership and International experience, and if he was such a solid player why has he not really been linked with any other Championship teams since his arrival? Lot''s of teams looking for solidity and experience at the back, yet no transfer rumours regarding the Doc...what an amazing co-incidence.

It''s not a fact, it''s my opinion, and I don''t rate the guy and feel we need better. This is not a personal dislike or attack, merely my opinion based on my own footballing knowledge and from watching the guy for the last 4-5 years. Do I know as much as the likes of Roeder, Grant or Worthy? of course not, but I''m still entitled to voice an honest opinion.

Doherty to go in Jan for me as long as we get replacements in.

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The key role for ANY defender should be to prevent the opposition from scoring by effectively marking them, and then making a similarly effective tackle which results in the ball going safely away from goal,  This being said, how can Doherty be defended from this perspective?

I dont rate him especially either Indy. 

However in your opinion you want to get rid of the defender who has actually

  • defended the most consistently confirmed by the stats for the last 3 seasons showing that Doc
  • conceeds fewer free kicks and
  • is directly responsible for fewer goals than any of his defensive partners,  
  • who have an equally poor distribution record,
  • with Doc in the side we win more points
  • conceeding fewer goals than any of his peers
  • backed up with glowing praise from Dion.  

That comparison covers every defender and partnership permed from Fleming, Davenport, Taylor, Murray, Dion and Shax.

On that basis why dont you want to dispose of Murray, Dion Shax and Taylor too?  As such I cannot agree with your opinoin

Its my honest opinion that with Murray, Taylor, Shax and Doc we would have a decent enough squad of central defenders to take us to the play offs, with currenly the much maligned doc the most consistent and best performing of those.

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[quote user="Mook"]

[quote user="lucky green trainers"]agree ZLF - taylor had a poor game on tuesday, but maybe his mind was elsewhere - given the pending contract issues.  given his pedigree with brum - he doesn''t have to prove himself to anyone.  he has the experience to get us up.[/quote]

So how come Taylor gets to be crap "because his mind is elsewhere" but the Doc has to play perfectly with no mistakes (like er ..... er ......... erm ..... sorry, name me another footballer that doesn''t make mistakes?) even though his name is booed before kick off??? You just don''t like him. Face it, it''s a personal dislike - just as it is with pretty much everyone else that dislikes him. Cos there ain''t no facts to backup your point!!!

[/quote]no mook - its not personal - and sure, i may be going against the ''facts'' if i think city''s best defender in a failing defence deserves my support.  i''m sure roy keane felt the same when he ditched the entire sunderland defence last season - and turning a right back into a central defender in the process - to win promotion!!! its my opinion, that a city team with the doc (or shax and def dion) in the heart of its defence won''t win promotion - he''s had his chance - i''m not convinced.  taylor??? he''s well worth a go. 

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