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ricardo

Get Off Doc's Back

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For me he was magnificent tonight yet some idiot on the phone in was still getting on his back.

Blake never got a look in and I think the whole defence looked solid. We still need a bit more strength in mid field. Russell is full of energy but gives the ball away too much. Fotheringham not at the races tonight.

It was a game we would have lost 6 weeks ago.

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He was our best defender tonight.  Saved us twice after Taylor and Otsemobor gave the ball away cheaply.  Admittedly, he''s a bit "safety first" (nearly clearing the South Stand and Jarrold Stand), but we''re bottom of the league, and he''s not ever going to beat six players and score, so...

 

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[quote user="ricardo"]

For me he was magnificent tonight yet some idiot on the phone in was still getting on his back.

Blake never got a look in and I think the whole defence looked solid. We still need a bit more strength in mid field. Russell is full of energy but gives the ball away too much. Fotheringham not at the races tonight.

It was a game we would have lost 6 weeks ago.

[/quote]

Well said. It''s so frustrating to sit there at the game and start hearing the idiots get on his case as soon as he touches the ball.

The chap on the radio said Shackell is 10 times better than Doherty. Well if I had to pick between the pair of them I''d pick Doherty, no question. And I''ve definitely got a better understanding of the game than that fool who called in to Radio Norfolk.

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agree that the doc gave a good account - but plymouth numerous attempts on goal were mostly high, wide and handsome.  certainly when they weren''t, marshall made some excellent stops and kept us in the game.  fozzy and matty patty looked jaded, but with playing quick games in succession after returning from injury and playing first team footy respectively - they can be excused, but only cos we won.  personally, i don''t think matty likes playing wide left midfield, but is giving 110% nevertheless - however as a young''un - his form and therefore confidence could suffer eventually.  i suggest roeder gives the squad 2 full days off - and brings matty back into central midfield on sat alongside fozzy - with crofty on the left, and hucks on the left.

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Excellent performance from Doc 2nite. Won everything upstairs and made some fine challenges throughout. Thought he was man of the match. Take note Vern!!!!

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The Doc as we put it is a complete waste of space,  the rule is  "If in doubt kick it out".  this is all well and goo and he is superb at doing this.  he is strong in the air cos he can use his head. its solid wood.   but the rest of his game is total crap.  other times he got the ball tonight he had no clue what to do with it and he was unsure where to play it. Why else was the spurs faithful so please to be shot of him. he was a very good player 6-7 years ago when he played as a striker.  but since he has be converted to defense and then sent here to carrow road he is a bloody liability,  he is far more responsible for free kicks, goals and pens than anyone else since he started playing here. i say hes only getting a few games so roeder can asses his value in the Jan sales so we can get a few quid for him.  good riddance.  sign up taylor instead.

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[quote user="Optimisticcanary"]The Doc as we put it is a complete waste of space,  the rule is  "If in doubt kick it out".  this is all well and goo and he is superb at doing this.  he is strong in the air cos he can use his head. its solid wood.   but the rest of his game is total crap.  other times he got the ball tonight he had no clue what to do with it and he was unsure where to play it. Why else was the spurs faithful so please to be shot of him. he was a very good player 6-7 years ago when he played as a striker.  but since he has be converted to defense and then sent here to carrow road he is a bloody liability,  he is far more responsible for free kicks, goals and pens than anyone else since he started playing here. i say hes only getting a few games so roeder can asses his value in the Jan sales so we can get a few quid for him.  good riddance.  sign up taylor instead.
[/quote]

Ok, so you''re completely cluess but setting that aside for a moment

If we were to put Doherty and Shackell up for sale:

  • who would get the most interest?
  • who would get the highest transfer fee?

I think you''ll find the answer to both would be Gary Doherty.

Ok, fair enough, the above are my opinions...but the ones below aren''t...

Out of Doherty and Shackell:

  • Who has played for a bigger club than Norwich?
  • Who has played most games in the Premier League?
  • Who has played at international level?

All 3 times Gary Doherty.

Gary Doherty is the best defender on the books at Norwich City. To think otherwise is, frankly, ridiculous.

 

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You seriously think that Roeder would play someone just to put them in the shop window when we are bottom?!? Get real...he picks the side that he feels is strongest to get a result.Spurs got rid because they didn''t feel he was up to the premiership which is fair comment. However at this level he is brave, good in the air and does a job for us.

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[quote user="Optimisticcanary"]The Doc as we put it is a complete waste of space,  the rule is  "If in doubt kick it out".  this is all well and goo and he is superb at doing this.  he is strong in the air cos he can use his head. its solid wood.   but the rest of his game is total crap.  other times he got the ball tonight he had no clue what to do with it and he was unsure where to play it. Why else was the spurs faithful so please to be shot of him. he was a very good player 6-7 years ago when he played as a striker.  but since he has be converted to defense and then sent here to carrow road he is a bloody liability,  he is far more responsible for free kicks, goals and pens than anyone else since he started playing here. i say hes only getting a few games so roeder can asses his value in the Jan sales so we can get a few quid for him.  good riddance.  sign up taylor instead.
[/quote]

Naive. Taylor doesn''t want to sign as for Doc you like most others who criticise him expect to much. What did he do wrong tonight. Play a few long balls out of touch. Heaven forbid. How many bad passes did our new Captain marvel make tonight or Russell. Or for that matter Huckerby. Why Does Doherty hoof the ball because there is often no other option. The fantastic central midfield pair rarely make themselves available and hardly ever come short to take the ball and responsibility off and overworked defender. I''m not saying he''s awesome or premiership quality but I''d pick him every week ahead of Shackell.

.

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[quote user="Optimisticcanary"]The Doc as we put it is a complete waste of space,  the rule is  "If in doubt kick it out".  this is all well and goo and he is superb at doing this.  he is strong in the air cos he can use his head. its solid wood.   but the rest of his game is total crap.  other times he got the ball tonight he had no clue what to do with it and he was unsure where to play it. Why else was the spurs faithful so please to be shot of him. he was a very good player 6-7 years ago when he played as a striker.  but since he has be converted to defense and then sent here to carrow road he is a bloody liability,  he is far more responsible for free kicks, goals and pens than anyone else since he started playing here. i say hes only getting a few games so roeder can asses his value in the Jan sales so we can get a few quid for him.  good riddance.  sign up taylor instead.
[/quote]

 

Gets the ball out when in doubt.....ok he''s not a Beckenbauer but who cares. I would have loved him to wallop the ball out at SToke on sat! We were under the cosh tonight so frankly i dont give a flyin fook about his distribution. Was Taylors gd? No!

Good in the air....agreed.Surely a good trait for a defender. Doc does alot of the untidy work.Blocking everything with any part of the body. Well done him.

He is never gonna be a world beater but lay off the fella. What did Ebanks Blake and Hayles do tonight? Diddly squat! What does thatsay?? I rest my case!

Oh.....the rest of his game...."OC"....enlighten me to the other traits that are neccessities for a cb? Coz for me its defence first!

Lay off.

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i was at the game and the second half he was pure dross

im sorrey but neil adames rated him for man of the match  crap

he looked nervee looked confussed about what to do forgot all about one ball

the bloke ran on through him on goal if he had scored doc would of looked for the

tunnel to run down  he past it pushing player  of the ball will only get us in trouble

i just saw our goals on tv and what was doc doing  when they scored o dear

by doc thanks for the years

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Out of interest Optimistic, who gave away our last penalty against QPR ( I think ), and looked an absolute liability during their 10 minute cameo tonight? And that quote about the striker role has to be a joke, right?I would prefer Taylor to Doc no doubt, but for pity''s sake he was by no means our worst player tonight. As for not being sure who to play the ball to - well who was he supposed to play it to exactly? None of the midfield seemed to want it, and when they did get it they either ran forward and played it in the wrong direction, or put the ball across the pitch only to be intercepted by a Plymouth player.How many decent balls did you see out of defence today, incidentally?

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Doc was the best defender by a mile today;  taylor was off the pace and rightly subbed,   If he is going to be pilloried for a MOTM performance then I hope he finds a club where his efforts are appreciated.

 

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[quote user="I. Shurmer"]Out of interest Optimistic, who gave away our last penalty against QPR ( I think ), and looked an absolute liability during their 10 minute cameo tonight? And that quote about the striker role has to be a joke, right?I would prefer Taylor to Doc no doubt, but for pity''s sake he was by no means our worst player tonight. As for not being sure who to play the ball to - well who was he supposed to play it to exactly? None of the midfield seemed to want it, and when they did get it they either ran forward and played it in the wrong direction, or put the ball across the pitch only to be intercepted by a Plymouth player.How many decent balls did you see out of defence today, incidentally?[/quote]The reason there was no decent balls out of defense tonight was simple,  norwich did not suit the 4-3-3 formation,  absolutely no width, the doc has always been the weekest link in our defense. i will give him his dues, he has had the rare good game, and he does go up for the headers and win the ball. he does clear the ball into touch, but that it. theres nothing further to his game,  he was put on the back post for for the free kicks/corners tonight and never came close.  you criticise Taylor tonight?  maybe cos hes run ragged for the last 4 games he may be a little tired. Camara was solid again and Otsemobor was paced once more on the wing. it wasnt until Croft came on that the formation went 4-4-2 and then it evened out. with the wings coming into play. Taylor went off due to tiredness in my eyes,   we still need 100% on saturday against Sheff Utd before he goes back to brum. Face it Doherty is not up to the city standard either.  and we have been fantastic without him, but less impressive with him in the team.

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Actually Taylor went off due to to injury - he pulled something chasing back to clear a ball and went off not long after.

He wasn''t as impressive tonight - imo - because he was playing as the left-hand side of the CH pairing. With Shackell he plays on the right.

Doc had an ''ok'' game but we need a better quality player there - he makes the entire back four look nervous through his hesitancy and poor distribution.

It certainly worries me that we''ll be back to Doc/Shackell as the CH pairing after Saturday.

Roeder MUST buy a new defender in January - I''m sure he knows that since Taylor was his first/immediate signing when he got the job.

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[quote user="ZippersLeftFoot"]

Doc was the best defender by a mile today;  taylor was off the pace and rightly subbed,   If he is going to be pilloried for a MOTM performance then I hope he finds a club where his efforts are appreciated.

 

[/quote]

That''s exactly how I have felt for a long time ZLF. The Doc has his faults but he has consistently been our best defender since we got relegated. His distribution is actually better than he gets credit for.. all defenders have to hoof it at times and the Doc does it no more than Dublin or Shackell. Whenever I watch us play, especially away from home, his bravery and commitment to the team is obvious. In the many away "no shows" I have witnessed he has never hid like others. He was our best defender again tonight, he was much better than Taylor tonight. He did a really good job at right back against Stoke too, in fact his ball out of defence to Dublin helped make our goal.

Dublin, Shackell and Murray have all spoken in support of Doherty, they play beside him and have reason to be grateful for his contribution in covering for them. Worthington, Grant and now Roeder recognise his worth and pick him to play in front of others at the club. And yet the "Boo Boys" know best![:^)] Well... I don''t think so!!![:#]

I hope he doesn''t have to find another club to have his efforts appreciated[N]

[8] Dont it always seem to go, that you don''t know what you''ve got till it''s gone......................

 

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We certainly were not playing a 4-3-3 last night - it was a clear 4-4-2 and our midfield was second best,  which was why the back 4 had to end up playing stupid balls between themselves or simply hoicking the ball out or long.

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[quote user="nutty nigel"][quote user="ZippersLeftFoot"]

Doc was the best defender by a mile today;  taylor was off the pace and rightly subbed,   If he is going to be pilloried for a MOTM performance then I hope he finds a club where his efforts are appreciated.

 

[/quote]

That''s exactly how I have felt for a long time ZLF. The Doc has his faults but he has consistently been our best defender since we got relegated. His distribution is actually better than he gets credit for.. all defenders have to hoof it at times and the Doc does it no more than Dublin or Shackell. Whenever I watch us play, especially away from home, his bravery and commitment to the team is obvious. In the many away "no shows" I have witnessed he has never hid like others. He was our best defender again tonight, he was much better than Taylor tonight. He did a really good job at right back against Stoke too, in fact his ball out of defence to Dublin helped make our goal.

Dublin, Shackell and Murray have all spoken in support of Doherty, they play beside him and have reason to be grateful for his contribution in covering for them. Worthington, Grant and now Roeder recognise his worth and pick him to play in front of others at the club. And yet the "Boo Boys" know best![:^)] Well... I don''t think so!!![:#]

I hope he doesn''t have to find another club to have his efforts appreciated[N]

[8] Dont it always seem to go, that you don''t know what you''ve got till it''s gone......................

 

[/quote]

Big Yellow Taxi for the Doc!!!

I think the Doc has ben good for us too Nutty and his distribution is good when he has someone to pass it too.  He does a lot of work that goes un noticed and I get the feeling that people turn up and just watch the Doc looking to pull his game apart rather than watch the match.  On the other hand Shackell can never do no wrong and he has made his fair share of mistakes this season.  I can think of countless times when he has been the last defender playing the opposition on side when the rest of the defence had moved up.  Personally I am not conviced that the Doc and Shackell work together.

It makes me laugh that the description given of the Doc that he is good in the air etc could have easily been a description of Mackay but yet he can do no wrong either.  I think if you look up "Poor Distribution" in the dictionary you might well find a picture of poor old Malkay, yet he is club hero.

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[quote user="gcb...norwich"]

Excellent performance from Doc 2nite. Won everything upstairs and made some fine challenges throughout. Thought he was man of the match. Take note Vern!!!!

[/quote]

He was better than usual. Never do I see you justifying his eratic behaviour when he has had a howler but enjoy your moment of glory whilst you can

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He was superb last night - definitely a MOTM contender. Of course I would like us to have better centre halves than him - Cannavarro and Beckenbauer would be a decent combination - but the Doc gets much more stick than he deserves.

It looks inevitable that Taylor will be going  back to Birmingham before the transfer window, so the Doc and Shack are going to get some games. They need our support. Get off their backs.

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 A text on Canary call summed it all up last night, Gary Doherty is just like Marmite.

I dont rate him at all but I thought he had a decent game last night.  I still cringe when the ball is passed to him and he still defends like an octopus but he is our player until such time and we will have to accept that.

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[quote user="norwich flag"]

 

i just saw our goals on tv and what was doc doing  when they scored o dear

[/quote]

I''m glad someone else spotted this, when Tiny goes back, I fear for our recent revival, I really do.

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You are right. I''m don''t criticise his erratic behaviour because unlike some I support the players and the club through thick and thin. I''m not suggesting you don''t support the club as much as the next man but you are obviously anti Doc!  Yes he makes mistakes but who doesn''t. My point with ''The Doc'' is that he always gives 100% and it really annoys me off that certain players are slated however well they play. This is not a ''moment of glory'' as you put it. Its just defending one of our players who I believe genuinely cares and wants to be a success at the club. He has his limitations and is never going to be a world beater but then again if he was he would be a regular in the premiership.

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I am not doubting that he cares and I dont doubt he gives 100%. And you are correct about people getting on his case however well he plays. It is human nature that people always remember the bad and not the good and that is unfortunate.

Think of David James. Flapper James, Calamity James etc. Not much mentioned about the cracking saves he has made, just the blunders.....That is life unfortunately but I sincerely do take your point.

 

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[quote user="1st Wizard"][quote user="norwich flag"]

 i just saw our goals on tv and what was doc doing  when they scored o dear

[/quote]

I''m glad someone else spotted this, when Tiny goes back, I fear for our recent revival, I really do.

[/quote]I''m agree totally. The facts are simple - since Taylor has arrived, we have started to look solid and resilient. Roeder, unlike Grant, immediately recognised our weak, leaderless back line and addressed it within days. So quickly in fact, i think he had probably identified Taylor before he even got the job. What does this tell you? It''s the first weakness Roeder saw. There is some hope in this Wizard, in that hopefully Roeder will already be working to secure another Taylor type CB if he goes back. Doc had a good strong game last night and is a player we need right now. But we also need a defensive leader and organiser, and Doc/Shackell are neither. Without one, it''ll be back to "panicstations, all-hands to the pump" defending that has undermined the whole team since Malky left.

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The criticism of Doc reminds me of an article I read about the Oakland Athletics, and the book Moneyball, which I must get round to reading.The text below is from a review, beginning with a quote from the author :[quote]"I wrote this book because I fell in love with a story. The story

concerned a small group of undervalued professional baseball players

and executives, many of whom had been rejected as unfit for the big

leagues, who had turned themselves into one of the most successful

franchises in Major League Baseball. But the idea for the book came

well before I had good reason to write it—before I had a story to fall

in love with. It began, really, with an innocent question: how did one

of the poorest teams in baseball, the Oakland Athletics, win so many

games?

"

With these words Michael Lewis launches us into the funniest, smartest, and most contrarian book since, well, since Liar''s Poker. Moneyball

is a quest for something as elusive as the Holy Grail, something that

money apparently can''t buy: the secret of success in baseball. The

logical places to look would be the front offices of major league

teams, and the dugouts, perhaps even in the minds of the players

themselves. Lewis mines all these possibilities—his intimate and

original portraits of big league ballplayers are alone worth the price

of admission—but the real jackpot is a cache of

numbers—numbers!—collected over the years by a strange brotherhood of

amateur baseball enthusiasts: software engineers, statisticians, Wall

Street analysts, lawyers and physics professors.

What these geek numbers show—no, prove—is that the traditional

yardsticks of success for players and teams are fatally flawed
. Even

the box score misleads us by ignoring the crucial importance of the

humble base-on-balls. This information has been around for years, and

nobody inside Major League Baseball paid it any mind. And then came

Billy Beane, General Manager of the Oakland Athletics.

Billy paid attention to those numbers —with the second lowest payroll in baseball at his disposal he had to—and this book records his astonishing experiment in finding and fielding a team that nobody else wanted. Moneyball

is a roller coaster ride: before the 2002 season opens, Oakland must

relinquish its three most prominent (and expensive) players, is written

off by just about everyone, and then comes roaring back to challenge

the American League record for consecutive wins.[/quote]
Oakland Athletics in 2002 were a bunch of poorly paid rejects from the major league.  But they were able to work to their strengths to create a successful team.  Maybe the players in the team just looked awkard, but they were capable of being effective.  And I guess that''s how i see Doherty.   He does look awkward, but I bet if you were to look at the stats that matter, he proves to be effective at his job.I shall now retire to my bunker and don my tin hat.  Cue abuse [:)]

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[quote user="a1canary"]
Doc had a good strong game last night and is a player we need right now. But we also need a defensive leader and organiser, and Doc/Shackell are neither. Without one, it''ll be back to "panicstations, all-hands to the pump" defending that has undermined the whole team since Malky left.
[/quote]

I swapped my usual seat in the Barclay for one in the new stand last night - I took advantage of the low prices to take my family with me. In the astonishing silence in that part of the ground you could clearly hear the players'' shouts to one another. I was interested to note that it was Doc, not Taylor, who was the vocal one, urging the back line forward when the ball was cleared, yelling at his fellow defenders. I''ve always seen the Doc as a headless chicken and before last night would have agreed with your post - but the evidence pointed otherwise last night.

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The problem is that Doherty hasn''t done himself any favours in the past and therefore there will always be people who pick holes in everything he does. He may play an absolute blinder, but the truth is, the next week he''ll probably be horrendous and be at fault for 2 or 3 goals. If people could see Doherty as a consistent defender then their opinions would change.Doherty''s quality of performances also seem to depend on how leniant the referee is on his absolutely constant manhandling of opposition players. It''s something he''s done since the very first day he arrived and despite being here for over 3 years he seems to have made no attempt to change at all - so many fans sit with their hearts in their mouths everytime he plays.

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I`ve said it before and i`ll say it again, we could pick up a defender of a similar level to Doherty for £100k from league two on a quarter of his wages. Remember the Rochdale defence having our strikers in their pockets in the c.c.cup? There are plenty of beefy 6`2" central defenders around who are brave and decent in the air, but have little pace or footballing ability.

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