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Tumbleweed

Gerrard as much to blame as McLaren

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Much comment on the manager, but not as much as about the team''s "captain".

We all know that Lampard and Gerrard cannot play in the same team, as Chelsea found out trying to pair Ballack and Lampard you simply cannot fill your midfield slots with two identical players.

Gerrard seems for some reason to get the plaudits. As far as I am concerned he is one of the most over rated players we have ever seen. He''s a rampaging clueless headless chicken showing no leadership whatsover and the nadir last night was when as captain he allowed Lampard to take the penalty in such a high pressure situation. A true captain steps up to the plate regardless of what pre ordained team orders are. Instead he bottled it. Lampard who hasn''t been on top form deserves massive credit for putting that away.

So often last night Gerrard was so deep, picking up balls directly from in front of the defenders, trying his 40 yard cross field passes, leaving the midfield exposed and Lampard outnumbered. He reminds me of that midfielder we had who went to Leicester about 10 years ago- Andy something or other (Johnson?)- the only difference being that Gerrard has a scouse accent so is a darling of the press.

How this man gets so much credit I don''t know. Nobody seems to mention ''04 when his suicidal pass let in Zidane in the last minutes to gift France a goal?

Lampard gets undeserved stick in my book. On form for England he was assured and did his job well, not going AWOL and believing his own publicity. Somehow last summer he seemed to lose a lot of confidence but despite that I would actually pick him ahead of Gerrard every time, but I know I''m in a minority.

Now that the other protest is postponed I feel like marching down from the Murderers on Saturday with my own "Gerrard Out" placard............

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You''re not alone - we may be in the minority, but I agree with you on pretty much every point you have just made......the substitution of Barry for Defoe was totally the wrong one - either Lampard or Gerrard should have been subbed - preferably Gerrard.  He was certainly no captain last night.

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[quote user="Tumbleweed"]

Much comment on the manager, but not as much as about the team''s "captain".

We all know that Lampard and Gerrard cannot play in the same team, as Chelsea found out trying to pair Ballack and Lampard you simply cannot fill your midfield slots with two identical players.

Gerrard seems for some reason to get the plaudits. As far as I am concerned he is one of the most over rated players we have ever seen. He''s a rampaging clueless headless chicken showing no leadership whatsover and the nadir last night was when as captain he allowed Lampard to take the penalty in such a high pressure situation. A true captain steps up to the plate regardless of what pre ordained team orders are. Instead he bottled it. Lampard who hasn''t been on top form deserves massive credit for putting that away.

So often last night Gerrard was so deep, picking up balls directly from in front of the defenders, trying his 40 yard cross field passes, leaving the midfield exposed and Lampard outnumbered. He reminds me of that midfielder we had who went to Leicester about 10 years ago- Andy something or other (Johnson?)- the only difference being that Gerrard has a scouse accent so is a darling of the press.

How this man gets so much credit I don''t know. Nobody seems to mention ''04 when his suicidal pass let in Zidane in the last minutes to gift France a goal?

Lampard gets undeserved stick in my book. On form for England he was assured and did his job well, not going AWOL and believing his own publicity. Somehow last summer he seemed to lose a lot of confidence but despite that I would actually pick him ahead of Gerrard every time, but I know I''m in a minority.

Now that the other protest is postponed I feel like marching down from the Murderers on Saturday with my own "Gerrard Out" placard............

[/quote]

Both agree and disagree here Tumbleweed.  Gerrard was awful and seems to get away with a lot but Lampard was awful too, I hardly noticed him until he took the penalty.  The players and Manager (or ex-manager) both have to take the heat for what has been  poor campaign.  We were poor long before last night, draws against Macedonia & Israel earlier in the group cost us just as much as the loss last night.  A win in either of thise games would have meant we were through.

Back to last night though.  From a managerial point of view the tactics and team selection was all wrong.  For a start it Gerrad OR Lampard not AND.  They just dont work together.  This shows Mclaren''s weakness, he just can''t leave one of them out, despite both of them being outshone by Hargreaves and the world cup and Barry being our best player in out last fews games.  He has to try and fit them in together somehow when they clearly can''t play together.  Secondly, 4-5-1 has never worked for England and it was never going to work with Crouch up front because he doesn''t have the pace.  Thirdly, throwing Carson in like that was criminal, first competitive match, pressure cooker game and on a pitch like a defrosting ice rink!!

From the players point of view, other than a few of them they should feel ashamed of themselves.  Gerrard and Lampard should be able to find a way to play together, a couple of years back they were voted 2nd and 3rd best players in the world.  They should be able to play together.  Not one player went over to Carson after the first goal to give him words of comfort, what is that about?  Great team spirit there and that about sums it all for me.

I am glad we have gone out.  Scraping a draw and qualifying would be papering over some massive cracks that have been there for so long.  Strong leadership is needed now.

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i shink they should revamp the england team and start a fresh. my team''d be:

Carson/ Green

Shorey

Terry

Carragher

Richards

Joe Cole

Barry

Smith

Young

Rooney

Crouch/ Agbonlahor

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Thankyou, I was beginning to think I was the only one.

Gerrard is vastly overrated and much of this seems to stem from his preformance in the European Cup final when Liverpool beat Milan. Now anybody who watched that game and has even the slightest knowledge of football could tell you that it was not Gerrard who changed that game but Dietmar Hamman. But somewhere along the line history has been re-written and Gerrard is the hero of the night, presumably becuase the English media would prefer a scouser to take the plaudits than a German [:^)]?

Buoyed by the attention of the media (witness the stick Benitez got when he substituted Gerrrd against Everton, even though they won the game) he seems to believe he''s the best midfielder in the world. But he''s not. He''s a very decent player in The Premiership because the style of play suits his game but I''ve never seen any real speculation linking with any of Europe''s top clubs. Cesc Fabregas gets linked with a move to Barcelona every other day, why don''t they just try and sign Gerrard if he''s so good?

He was awful last night, I haven''t got time to check the stats but I''d be amazed if his pass completion ratio was more than 70%, and you can''t really blame McClaren for that. With Gareth Barry playing the holding role Lampard and Gerrard should have dominated midfield but Lampard hardly touched the ball and every time Gerrard did he gave it away. Personally I''d get rid of both of them but as you say Gerrard seems to get a lot less criticism than Lampard even though the recent performances of both players for England have been poor.

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I agree with a lot of what you say hear Tumbleweed!

Gerrard is the most over rated player I''ve ever known.  I''m not saying he is a bad player not by any means but when he puts on an England shirt he always fails to perform (fact).  I can''t think of a single match for England when he has taken the game by the scrough of the neck and put in a performance anything close to the way he plays for Liverpool. 

I disagree with your comment about the pen, Gerrard was right to let Lamps take the pen because he is the England penalty taker and has time and again for club and country shown how good he is at doing this.

 

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a) everyone knows lampard cant be in the same team... lets get that out of the way

b) im a big fan of steven gerrards and personally think he drives the team forward for england when not with lampard, but i totally agree with last night he was non-existent, worst performance ive ever seen from him

c) defoe...why?.... what has the bloke ever done for england apart from ''jumping'' and losing headers constantly, and the penatly decision was a joke, worst decision i think ive seen and we still cant win,haha!

d) i feel sorry for carsson, but last night was not the right game for his first start in a pressurized situation infront of 90,000 on a greasy, slippery service... david james for me

e) wayne bridge, its a tough one but he just about wins ''worst player of the night'' award, his defending along with micah richards was absolutely woeful

Overall = Croatia WERE a good team, lets accept that, bilic has got them playing really well, and the difference was the pace in which they counter-attacked and the way the midfielders tracked back and stopped england whilst around the penatly area always closing down, again unlike an england team always expected to deliver

its a sad season for club and country, lets just hope a young welshman by the name of ''ched evans'' can save us!

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Gerrard is a liability too often. Even though lampard might not have as big as an effect too often gerrard gives away deadly ball and he is sooo lazy. The last goal he couldn''t be bothered to close the guy down and it cost us, infact i''d blame him nearly entirely for our loss last night. Taking barry and SWP were arguably some of the worse substitions I have ever seen. We needed barry and lampard/gerrard should have been taken off. I read the times today and they rates SWP the worst player! I don''t know what match they watched but in the first half he was our only attacking option (considering it was hoofball to crouch). It is also clear that someone has to sit richards down and tell him to stop running up the pitch all the time. It''s ridiculous, he''s a RB and he''s more often in the other teams box, it''s alrite against Estonia but against a talented team it''s suicide. We need to start playing as team most of all. It''s crazy.

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if Gerrard was poor Lampard was utter crap, until he took the pen i did not even realise he was playing.We should just accept our players are not world class, we are technically even behind an average team like Croatia. We aint done nout since 66 that tells you something, it cant always be the manager.

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He was a bit sloppy last night, but if you ask me he looks like only player who actually gives a sh*t. I bet he''d be one of the few who''d play for no or little money too, I''d like to see all England players with his attitude.

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Gerrard had a shocker last night. No doubt about it. But he wasn''t alone, so I don''t think it''s fair to blame him entirely. 

Sadly, too often our more talented England players seem to be reduced to spectators when they are needed most. Having a manager who selects an unbalanced team and poor tactics doesn''t exactly help. But as we have seen at Carrow Rd, ultimately it''s the players that have to take responsibility themselves once they''re out on the pitch. Last night it looked like far too many were just going through the motions. Last night at 2-2 they relaxed, sat back, and got what they deserved.

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Absolutely Feathers, but caring doesn''t mean exposing your teammates by running out of position all the time and going for the glory ball. If we had (a) a manager who gave the players clear and logical tactical instructions and (b) players who actually stuck to doing their jobs; things might be so different.

 

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Totally agree. Youve hit the nail on the head about the glory ball. Gerrard is somehow only remembered for that one-in-10 success rate pass that splits the defence open. But just watch the way he runs - the basic movement of the man. Clumsy and chaotic, and we call this "driving". Basically he''s a blustering, mazy headless chicken, with limbs flailing, all passion and little composure whatsoever. Whereas, the rest of our team has no composure, and no passion either.

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The answer to the Lampard of Gerrard arguement has been answered with a resounding Neither.play rooney in central mid behind two out and out strikers and with a defensive player (hargreaves of barry) and we would be much better.

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WE are to blame because we expect to much from them all, when the fact is they arent good enough...............

OTBC

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I''m seeing alot of different opinions on here today so if you''ll indulge me, here''s my two bob''s worth.............

From the off, us fans were up for it. Even in the Pubs in Harrow-On-The-Hill, there was a buzz amongst the fans that we would do it. In the Wembley sports bar pre-kick off, there was more chanting & atmosphere than I have seen all season. Inside the ground the fans made themselves heard with a positive noise flying round the stands everywhere, even after the 1st was conceded. The real contempt for the performance came after 14 minutes when the second went in..........

Anyhow, onto the match.......... Fat Frank was Garbage, Gerrard''s performance only added credance to the myth that he cannot play in big games for England, Barry & Gerrard spent too much time doing the same job whereas no-one was supporting Crouch (who was outstanding I think). Joe Cole was Joe Cole. No change there. Stepovers are all very well & good but if you don''t give a final ball it''s wasted. SWP was below average but then what do you expect for someone who isn''t a first team regular?

The Back Four. Well, there''s one decision that is easy. Richards, definitely going to be awesome in the future. Wasn''t last night, the experience will have helped his progression. Wayne Bridge? Bottled it & almost scored a spectacular OG. Not forgetting he was partly to blame for the 2nd. Playing the scorer onside was almost as criminal as Carson''s lack of attempt to stop him going round him. Sol? Too old & slow last night. Lescott? Do me a favour.

Now, Scott Carson. Oh dear oh dear son. You''ve not endeared yourself to the general public have you? I said to my mates en-route to the match "Well, he can''t be any worse than Robinson can he?" ............................... He answered that on 8 minutes. Then he just cemented it later on the 14th. Alright, I''ll concede he pulled off a couple of good saves in the second half, but at the end of the day, as I saw it, the third he could''ve done better. All in all, we were poor at best.

The best hope we have today is that Barwick will actually look to appoint a small board of ''football advisors'' to help the FA board to find a new manager, my choice would Mourinho with Shearer on the coaching staff.

I was so angry with what I saw last night I almost walked out of the ground after the second goal. But as it got more & more worse, the anger flowing through my body increased so much so, I actually wrote direct to the FA today demanding my money back on account of the lack of pride & effort from all players & coaching staff concerned. Granted I''d even be surprised if I get a response but I was pushed over the edge but those overpaid wasters.

One final point. Fat Frank was given the Man of the Match in ground. WHO THE HELL DECIDED THIS? PETER CROUCH RAN HIMSELF INTO THE GROUND!!!!!!!!!!

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[quote user="norwichsfinest"]

I actually wrote direct to the FA today demanding my money back on account of the lack of pride & effort from all players & coaching staff concerned.

[/quote]

Aaaaaaarrrrrrrggggghhhhhh!!!!!!!!!

This is my last post on the subject today as clearly I''m wasting my time. One last time, a lack of pride and effort is NOT the problem it''s the lack of an ability to pass a football to somebody in the same coloured shirt that is screwing us up.

The thing that amazes me most is that so many people actually believed that we would be alright before the match. With the exception of Rooney, and possibly Owen, we have no players who would get anywhere near the starting line up of any of the top European or South American teams. Those two were not available so it''s hardly surprising that it all went so wrong, is it?

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[quote user="Shack Attack"][quote user="norwichsfinest"]

I actually wrote direct to the FA today demanding my money back on account of the lack of pride & effort from all players & coaching staff concerned.

[/quote]

Aaaaaaarrrrrrrggggghhhhhh!!!!!!!!!

This is my last post on the subject today as clearly I''m wasting my time. One last time, a lack of pride and effort is NOT the problem it''s the lack of an ability to pass a football to somebody in the same coloured shirt that is screwing us up.

The thing that amazes me most is that so many people actually believed that we would be alright before the match. With the exception of Rooney, and possibly Owen, we have no players who would get anywhere near the starting line up of any of the top European or South American teams. Those two were not available so it''s hardly surprising that it all went so wrong, is it?

[/quote]

Ha ha! Yeah, we need pride and effot. NOT. We need to learn how to treat a football with respect, find space and defend as a team. Pride and effort was what an Englishman was supposed to give us - can''t people see it''s just tabloid junk? We need TALENT!!

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That''s exactly it, Shack and Mook. Traditionally the English tough no-nonsense approach worked in deacdes past (well a bit anyway) and I remember when I first started going to football that so-called "fancy dans" were roundly laughed at. That wasn''t the English way of stamina, physical effort in all conditions, preferably as hard as possible and no quarter given. If you came off with a bloody head you were a hero, not a thug. Meanwhile the rest of the football world moved on in a different direction while we trod the same path. Now they have pace, technical ability, fast flowing movement and still we go on about the English way of playing football epitomised by clodders like Steven Gerrard who once every few games puts in a decent cross field pass. The big clubs have been able to recruit the players and have the vision to move with the times, perhaps that is why Wenger looks abroad. The FA however in its "root and branch" review need to look at the way grass roots football is coached and the attitudes surrounding it. Big job, and it won''t happen overnight.

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[quote user="Jeremy Clayton Guscott"]

i shink they should revamp the england team and start a fresh. my team''d be:

Carson/ Green

Shorey

Terry

Carragher

Richards

Joe Cole

Barry

Smith

Young

Rooney

Crouch/ Agbonlahor

[/quote]

carragher has retired and ferdinand has been the best central defender in the prem this season so why is he not there

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personally I thought Gerrard was poor but I realy think think it was because he was trying to hard to make things happen. when he does it for liverpool he normally wins the game for them but he just came up against probably the most experienced and underated team in the world.

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As nearly everyone else who watches football has already said, NO to Gerrard and Lampard in the same team! It is so blindingly obvious that they do not work together, you wonder why two consecutive England managers have persisted with it and if there aren''t, or weren''t, reasons other than footballing ones why that remained the case?

Club teams are usually based on who is in form and who isn''t-on that reckoning neither would get an England place at the moment, especially Gerrard-he seems to be completely untouchable, a Teflon player who can do no wrong. I''m surprised the Merseysiders haven''t demanded a knighthood for him.

I hope that Ashton gets fit enough to get some games with England as he is just the sort of strong, physical but skilful forward the international team needs. Indeed, whoever the new Manager is, he needs to work out who the up and coming players are, who are on their way out, and get a little consistency with selection as much as he can, BUT based on those in form-which in itself should be an incentive for them to play out of their skins every week, rather than assume, as the likes of Gerrard must, that their England place is safe and secure, no matter what.

I''d also play Richards in his proper and preferred position as centre back, but as the no.1 follow up to Terry and Ferdinand, the latter had a dodgy England period but is getting back to some sort of form now-indeed, if we were really, REALLY brave, he could play as a sweeper-the method we used back in 1990 & which nearly got us to a World Cup final. With that in mind and yes, picking England teams are very subjective, I''d go for 4-1-3-2 and have as follows:-

                   Green

Neville G, Richards, Terry, Cole A

               Ferdinand

     Lennon-Hargreaves-Cole J

            Ashton-Rooney  

& let Neville and Cole A worry about the width when necessary.

Lennon needs another chance, if he can get fit and a bit more physical, he can be a really REALLY good player.

Lampard and Gerrard should be looking at Cole J''s place. I''d give him the nod at the moment because he can, when he''s bothered, make things happen.

 

 

 

 

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I do sometimes wonder how much say the FA has in picking the big stars, purely because they put bums on seats, and whether that goes some way towards explaining why we don''t play as a team.  The manager''s job is to take a group of players and build them into a successful team, and if he can''t do that because of interference from above, is it any wonder we''re in such a mess?

The story goes that Martin O''Neill wasn''t offered the job last time round because during his interview the FA asked him who his captain would be, and he told them to mind their own business more or less.  Before we try to appoint anyone else, some very clear and firm boundaries need to be set imo. 

Just heard that O''Neill has ruled himself out btw.

 

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