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England: Outside looking in.

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[quote user="kick it off"]

idiots have always given me a hard time for being a pole - "we saved you in the war" etc - well actually, no, i think you''ll find a combined effort of the americans and the russians drove the Nazis out of poland

[/quote]

I think what these "idiots" meant was that Britain went to war with Nazi Germany over Poland. We told Hitler that if he didn''t withdraw from Poland we would declare war on him. He didn''t withdraw, so we declared war. That is the most amazing thing that one country can do for another, and a little gratitude on your part wouldn''t go amiss. America didn''t enter the war until two years later, and it sure as hell wasn''t for Poland''s sake. And a week before we declared war on Germany, they had signed a non-aggression pact with the USSR. So the Russians sure as hell didn''t enter the war for Poland''s sake either. And as soon as they got the chance, your beloved Russians subjected a whole generation of Poles to communist rule.

For somebody who says they''re Polish, you know amazingly little about your country''s recent history.

 

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I am fully aware of my country''s history - my point was England didnt "save us" in the war.....The Russians and Americans did.I fully appreciate we weren''t the reason either country joined the war....but that doesn''t change the fact it was the advancing Russians that sent the Nazi''s packing from Poland.I also have the utmost respect for the British forces, past and present, and you''re right, maybe my post didn''t make it clear enough, but trust me, the whole Polish nation appreciates that you went to war for us and are grateful for the efforts of the British forces!!As for my "beloved" Russians.....I do not tar this generation with their predeccessor''s brushes. The USSR put us through absolute horrors, and if you ever visit Poland, I would advise a trip to the Gdansk shipyard museum to see the place where the fall of communism started. If it wasn''t for the bravery of Lech Walesa and the other dockers, we would have been subjected to god knows how many more years of it. It just doesn''t bear thinking about.But whilst we suffered for a very long time, its been nearly 20years since the USSR fell - you cannot just keep hating a country indefinitely!

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[quote user=" Desi Rascall"]i thought the russians stitched up the polish home army during the war?[/quote]

I mean that to claim the country that secretly conspired with the Nazi''s to Carve up Poland under the Ribon Troppe-Moltke Pact;Then launched a joint invasion;then carried out the katynn massacre;then delayed its advance to allow the Nazi''s to crush the Nationalist movement;then occupied and imprisoned said countries leaders and academics and ecconomically starved the country for fourty years is stretching the definition of "saving a country" imho.

 

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[quote user=" Desi Rascall"]

[quote user=" Desi Rascall"]i thought the russians stitched up the polish home army during the war?[/quote]

I mean that to claim the country that secretly conspired with the Nazi''s to Carve up Poland under the Ribon Troppe-Moltke Pact;Then launched a joint invasion;then carried out the katynn massacre;then delayed its advance to allow the Nazi''s to crush the Nationalist movement;then occupied and imprisoned said countries leaders and academics and ecconomically starved the country for fourty years is stretching the definition of "saving a country" imho.

 

[/quote]

Sounds like you are quite knowlegdeable on this topic, and i applaud you on that fact.However, as you clearly know your stuff, there are a few bits you have missed out.....such as the fact Britain and the allies agreed to let Russia keep Poland, The fact that Britain told Poland not to mobilise troops against Hitler''s advances in the first instance of invasion, The fact that Polish troops took 12% of the German aircraft down at the battle of Britain.... Dont get me wrong - i, and all Polish people appreciate what the British did for us during the war, but to claim Britain saved us in the war, is surely incorrect in light of these facts?Yeah the Russians were sly, and terrifying, but it''s hardly like i''m putting them on a pedastal, I said that Soviet troops drove the Nazi''s out of Poland, which is fairly accurate, obviously the Polish resistance etc helped but it was mainly the Russians. I obviously am not best pleased about the 40years of oppression and terror they subjected us to, I was illustrating a point that Britain didnt save us in the war, maybe again, i did not make this clear.interesting article if anyone is interested, can be found here: http://www.kasprzyk.demon.co.uk/www/history/WW2.html

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"i think you''ll find a combined effort of the americans and the russians drove the Nazis out of poland"

 

By the way, remind me - what precisely did the Americans do to drive the Nazis out of Poland? If you''re talking about D-Day and the "second front", don''t forget that Britain also played a very significant part in that.

 

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[quote user="kick it off"][quote user=" Desi Rascall"]

[quote user=" Desi Rascall"]i thought the russians stitched up the polish home army during the war?[/quote]

I mean that to claim the country that secretly conspired with the Nazi''s to Carve up Poland under the Ribon Troppe-Moltke Pact;Then launched a joint invasion;then carried out the katynn massacre;then delayed its advance to allow the Nazi''s to crush the Nationalist movement;then occupied and imprisoned said countries leaders and academics and ecconomically starved the country for fourty years is stretching the definition of "saving a country" imho.

 

[/quote]


Sounds like you are quite knowlegdeable on this topic, and i applaud you on that fact.

However, as you clearly know your stuff, there are a few bits you have missed out.....

such as the fact Britain and the allies agreed to let Russia keep Poland, The fact that Britain told Poland not to mobilise troops against Hitler''s advances in the first instance of invasion, The fact that Polish troops took 12% of the German aircraft down at the battle of Britain.... Dont get me wrong - i, and all Polish people appreciate what the British did for us during the war, but to claim Britain saved us in the war, is surely incorrect in light of these facts?

Yeah the Russians were sly, and terrifying, but it''s hardly like i''m putting them on a pedastal, I said that Soviet troops drove the Nazi''s out of Poland, which is fairly accurate, obviously the Polish resistance etc helped but it was mainly the Russians. I obviously am not best pleased about the 40years of oppression and terror they subjected us to, I was illustrating a point that Britain didnt save us in the war, maybe again, i did not make this clear.

interesting article if anyone is interested, can be found here: http://www.kasprzyk.demon.co.uk/www/history/WW2.html
[/quote]

Thank you

i am assuming you are refering to the yalta agreement,which was a stitch up on par with the treaty of versailles and the balfour declaration.

Not that Yalta was a one off when it came to doing deals with Uncle Joe, MacMillan was party to the deal which transfered hundreds of thousands of Don Cossacks to the Gulags.I don''t think any country came out of the second world war looking particullarily rosy,people tend to view the cold war with as a piece of nostalgic make believe,or "pretend war" whilst ignoring the millions that actually died in the third world as a direct result of the great game between the big three, Russia,China and America, (britain had already become a peripheral player, by suez).

thought you might apprieciate this link which http://www.cdi.org/russia/johnson/9246-24.cfm explores  Polish Russian relations and modern day revisionism.

 

 

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Desi - i did enjoy that article, thank you for the link.I concur, no-one came out of the war looking rosy, and each country has its own version of what happened, the truth as always, lies somewhere in the middle.I was referring to Yalta, but also to Teheran - both of which were stitch-ups on a grand scale!anyway - back on to point - good luck on qualification for 2010 - the draw is taking place as we speak so i am off to see who we get, It won''t be England though as we are in the same pot!! I''m sure the FA will get the right man this time - they can''t afford to settle for second best this time - much the same as Norwich couldnt!

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[quote user="BlyBlyBabes"]

Now, let me get this right.

The Russians saved Poland?[8]

Delia saved NCFC?[8]

Well, er...........hmmm!

OTBC

[/quote]

Stop press!

According to my wife, Napoleon is rumoured to have said that ''history is a set of agreed upon lies''.

So pick your historian carefully.

Otherwise you might get HiStory!

OTBC

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[quote user="Mello Yello"]

Is Jezza Kyle and other daytime TV $hite - actually transmitted in Poland (with subtitles) for the lardy @rsed Poles?

Don''t direct your frustration at ''furriners''.......If the opportunity is offered or made available by our welcoming Government, for member''s of the EU to come over ''ere - and do all the jobs of an objectionable nature, that the poor dole scrounging work-shy Britoids: "I is not gonna gerrout of me scratcher fur just Â£5.75 an'' hour to do a crappy job innit!" "When I can gerra lot more wonga (Stella Sheets) by stayin'' wiv me dear partner wiv her, ''one in the hand, one in the pushchair, one in the oven'' missus - allowin'' us gettun more benefit an'' a bigger gaff....sorted!"

Who''s the problem? Don''t blame the ''furriners''........Blame the ........

Anyway, the Polish are as good at doing the quality ''work'' as their fore-fathers were - piloting Spitfires and Hurricanes 60 odd years ago.

And no, I don''t employ ''furriners''........But I do work hard for my season ticket.[8-|]

 

 

[/quote]

Great post, Mello. Utterly true!

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[quote user="kick it off"]

I concur, no-one came out of the war looking rosy, and each country has its own version of what happened, the truth as always, lies somewhere in the middle.

[/quote]

This is an example of moral relativism, the curse of our time. Churchill, Hitler, Hitler, Churchill, who''s the goodie, who''s the baddie, depends who you listen to really. Six of one, half a dozen of the other, probably.

By the way you didn''t answer my question about America''s role in liberating Poland.

 

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[quote user="Snuggles"]

[quote user="kick it off"]

I concur, no-one came out of the war looking rosy, and each country has its own version of what happened, the truth as always, lies somewhere in the middle.

[/quote]

This is an example of moral relativism, the curse of our time. Churchill, Hitler, Hitler, Churchill, who''s the goodie, who''s the baddie, depends who you listen to really. Six of one, half a dozen of the other, probably.

By the way you didn''t answer my question about America''s role in liberating Poland.

[/quote]

We''ve put over 30  McDonald''s in there so far. Stick out tongue [:P]

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[quote user="Snuggles"]

[quote user="kick it off"]I concur, no-one came out of the war looking rosy, and each country has its own version of what happened, the truth as always, lies somewhere in the middle.[/quote]

This is an example of moral relativism, the curse of our time. Churchill, Hitler, Hitler, Churchill, who''s the goodie, who''s the baddie, depends who you listen to really. Six of one, half a dozen of the other, probably.

By the way you didn''t answer my question about America''s role in liberating Poland.

 

[/quote]

Sorry snuggles, only just hit back on this thread - My grandfather was taken as a POW and incarcerated in Mauthausen in Austria, along with thousands of other innocent Poles, which was liberated by the American troops, and it was them fighting on the West which forced Germany to face a war on two fronts. This allowed the Soviets to advance and take the Poland. It was mainly the success of the American led operation cobra at the D-day  landings which allowed the Americans to fan out into a broad front and sweep through Europe whilst the Soviets came from the East, dividing Hitler''s forces and freeing Poland from Hitler''s forces. (Only for them to be taken over by the Soviets!). Yes before it comes back at me, i am fully aware that the British were a major part of the D-day landings, and that is fully appreciated. The point I am making is that it was mainly the Americans wgho advanced through France and Belgium and into Germany.

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[quote user="kick it off"][quote user="Snuggles"]

[quote user="kick it off"]

I concur, no-one came out of the war looking rosy, and each country has its own version of what happened, the truth as always, lies somewhere in the middle.

[/quote]

This is an example of moral relativism, the curse of our time. Churchill, Hitler, Hitler, Churchill, who''s the goodie, who''s the baddie, depends who you listen to really. Six of one, half a dozen of the other, probably.

By the way you didn''t answer my question about America''s role in liberating Poland.

 

[/quote]


Sorry snuggles, only just hit back on this thread - My grandfather was taken as a POW and incarcerated in Mauthausen in Austria, along with thousands of other innocent Poles, which was liberated by the American troops, and it was them fighting on the West which forced Germany to face a war on two fronts. This allowed the Soviets to advance and take the Poland.

It was mainly the success of the American led operation cobra at the D-day  landings which allowed the Americans to fan out into a broad front and sweep through Europe whilst the Soviets came from the East, dividing Hitler''s forces and freeing Poland from Hitler''s forces. (Only for them to be taken over by the Soviets!). Yes before it comes back at me, i am fully aware that the British were a major part of the D-day landings, and that is fully appreciated. The point I am making is that it was mainly the Americans wgho advanced through France and Belgium and into Germany.
[/quote]

 

Without Britains involvement the Yanks would never have been there to help save your "treasured" nation (a nation that failed to reward its own people) - whatever way you try & dress it up, the Americans were penultimate to the cause.

Minus British intelligence and the sheer tenacity of British men & women plus a hefty loan from America that we''ve only just finished paying back, your "treasured" nation (that still fails to reward its own people) would''ve been a Germanic state since way back then.

And a question to Mello who put Polish pilots of Spitfires & Hurricanes  on some kind of pedestal -- who constructed them

 

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It''s disappointing to see some on this thread take shots at others because of their ancestry or try to play one-upmanship. With respect to those that try to make one country better than another, such as Shyster is doing on this thread, please understand that any participant who was involved in that terrible struggle knew that the Allies ( all of the Allies ) were dependent upon each other in order to beat off the enemy and gain the ultimate victory. None of those brave souls who gave their lives, whether they were Brits, Americans, Russians, Canadian, Australians, Poles or any other nationality that fought for the cause, deserve those kind of irresponsible comments. I say that whether you are having a discussion in the pub, in your home, or on a message board such as this. We have a responsibility to teach the young the right way, not the wrong way. Yes, the British and the French were not in a state of readiness to offer material support when Poland was first attacked and overrun, but they declared war on a more powerful and better equipped enemy and began the long struggle to mobilise and eventually immerse themselves nonetheless. Yes, the British were not there at the end in Poland to run the Germans out but Britain had carried the weight of the African campaign to divert German strength away from the European fronts. Yes, the Americans did not enter the war until two years later but, without American involvement the outcome of the war would have been a disaster for the Allies.

I would encourage you to stop petty squabbling, look at the big picture and remember, when the chips are down, who your friends are. We may need those memories again lest we forget. 

 

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[quote user="YankeeCanary"]

It''s disappointing to see some on this thread take shots at others because of their ancestry or try to play one-upmanship. With respect to those that try to make one country better than another, such as Shyster is doing on this thread, please understand that any participant who was involved in that terrible struggle knew that the Allies ( all of the Allies ) were dependent upon each other in order to beat off the enemy and gain the ultimate victory. None of those brave souls who gave their lives, whether they were Brits, Americans, Russians, Canadian, Australians, Poles or any other nationality that fought for the cause, deserve those kind of irresponsible comments. I say that whether you are having a discussion in the pub, in your home, or on a message board such as this. We have a responsibility to teach the young the right way, not the wrong way. Yes, the British and the French were not in a state of readiness to offer material support when Poland was first attacked and overrun, but they declared war on a more powerful and better equipped enemy and began the long struggle to mobilise and eventually immerse themselves nonetheless. Yes, the British were not there at the end in Poland to run the Germans out but Britain had carried the weight of the African campaign to divert German strength away from the European fronts. Yes, the Americans did not enter the war until two years later but, without American involvement the outcome of the war would have been a disaster for the Allies.

I would encourage you to stop petty squabbling, look at the big picture and remember, when the chips are down, who your friends are. We may need those memories again lest we forget. 

 

[/quote]

Very well said Yankee, I really don''t think that this is an debate worth having.  It is a massive disrespect to the 70 million who died to talk about whether one country did more for the cause than another.  This is not football, bragging rights cannot be claimed and I would love to know how beelsie would feel reading all this.  The simple truth is that every Allied country played their part and I don''t really think a league table is needed to count points.

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[quote user="YankeeCanary"]

It''s disappointing to see some on this thread take shots at others because of their ancestry or try to play one-upmanship. With respect to those that try to make one country better than another, such as Shyster is doing on this thread, please understand that any participant who was involved in that terrible struggle knew that the Allies ( all of the Allies ) were dependent upon each other in order to beat off the enemy and gain the ultimate victory. None of those brave souls who gave their lives, whether they were Brits, Americans, Russians, Canadian, Australians, Poles or any other nationality that fought for the cause, deserve those kind of irresponsible comments. I say that whether you are having a discussion in the pub, in your home, or on a message board such as this. We have a responsibility to teach the young the right way, not the wrong way. Yes, the British and the French were not in a state of readiness to offer material support when Poland was first attacked and overrun, but they declared war on a more powerful and better equipped enemy and began the long struggle to mobilise and eventually immerse themselves nonetheless. Yes, the British were not there at the end in Poland to run the Germans out but Britain had carried the weight of the African campaign to divert German strength away from the European fronts. Yes, the Americans did not enter the war until two years later but, without American involvement the outcome of the war would have been a disaster for the Allies.

I would encourage you to stop petty squabbling, look at the big picture and remember, when the chips are down, who your friends are. We may need those memories again lest we forget. 

[/quote]

"i think you''ll find a combined effort of the americans and the russians drove the Nazis out of poland"

Lest we forget, this was the rather snide and ignorant comment which provoked the ''historical'' discussion part of this thread. I suspect, unfortunately, that this opinion is held by more Poles than just ''kick it off''. The truth is that if Britain hadn''t stood alone against the Nazi empire for two years, America would never have had an opportunity to do anything in Europe. With no second front, it''s not clear that the USSR would have got anywhere near Poland. There certainly never would have been a European Common Market, no NATO, no Glasnost, and people like ''kick it off'' would likely still be in eastern Europe, toiling under the heel of the Soviets or the Nazis. There would probably be no Israel either, but that''s another story.................

Having said all that, if America hadn''t entered the war, D-Day would have been out of the question, and Britain would at best have been forced to come to some sort of ''accommodation'' with Hitler. So a big thankyou, as always, to the US of A. Even though you were two years late ;-)

The poimt is, kick it off, next time you list the countries that saved Poland, it would be absurd not to include Britain.

Having said all that, I genuinely and sincerely welcome kick it off to England. I hope he lives long and prospers here, and has many children. He has obviously already mastered the language, and once he brushes-up on his history, there should be no stopping him!

On the Ball City!

 

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Without Britains involvement the Yanks would never have been there to help save your "treasured" nation (a nation that failed to reward its own people) - whatever way you try & dress it up, the Americans were penultimate to the cause.

Minus British intelligence and the sheer tenacity of British men & women plus a hefty loan from America that we''ve only just finished paying back, your "treasured" nation (that still fails to reward its own people) would''ve been a Germanic state since way back then.

And a question to Mello who put Polish pilots of Spitfires & Hurricanes  on some kind of pedestal -- who constructed them?

 



Right, to start with, Im unsure on your point about rewarding our own people? We lost 40% of our economy (as opposed to britains 0.6%) and then suffered 45 years at the hands of Stalin, after your "precious country" divided us up and handed us out!! so if you meant economically - it has taken us 15years to get back on our feet again. Of course if you mean in terms of medals, then A) You should have made your point clearer, and B) We lost 6million people, and then were taken by the soviets - i don''t think medals were of utmost importance, more surviving the regime took precedence i feel. and yeah we have had 15years, but we are only just getting ourselves sorted out, whilst we have made some efforts,  im sure all those deserving will be honoured in some way.

Your spitfire construction point is correct. However i think you will find - that we were constructing the Best anti-tank guns in the world at that time - which did more damage to the Nazis in the first advances in 1939 than the allies combined managed to inflict in the whole of 1940!!

Agreed Yankee, if you look back i have tried a couple of times to diffuse the situation, or call the topic to a close, but some people just cant drop the subject....Then again - i am in "their" country, eating their food, taking their jobs, dodging my taxes, burdening the economy and suchlike.

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It never ceases to amaze me that any discussion about WW2 always degenerates into an argument about who did the most for the cause and who were the most brave and noble of the Allies. This was something that happened over sixty years ago but petty nationalism means that we can''t just agree that everybody played their part. We still want to prove that our country was the best, that without us the war would have ended in a very different way. This presumably explains that chant of "If it wasn''t for the English you''d be Krauts" so favoured by England''s wonderful travelling support.

One of the main problems as I see it is that any war is so much more complicated than the way in which it is reported. People fighting on the side of good do bad things and people fighting on the side of evil do good things. Around 70million people died during the war, how many do we honestly believe were 100% good or 100% evil? The stark reality is that only a small percentage of those killed would have fallen in either of those two camps and this is what troubles us most. By constantly arguing about the minutiae of such a vast and bloody conflict we attempt to push ourselves and our ancestors closer towards the 100% good mark.

And this is the way that so many things continue to be reported today. A straight choice between good and evil, with the massive grey area that most people find themselves in rarely reported. The vast majority of people prefer for the media to pick a bogeyman to attack and a hero to praise rather that simply report the facts and letting their readers and viewers make up their own minds.

On the subject of which (and as this thread long since ceased to have anything to do with football) did anybody watch Boy A on Channel 4 last night. Thought provoking, uncomfortable to watch in places and utterly gripping drama about a young man released from prison after completing his sentence for a murder committed when he was ten. It played on the whole idea that the majority of people are capable of good and bad. It''s very rare to see such a drama on television, presumably because people are so uncomfortable with the idea and prefer to have a clear line between good and bad.

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And a question to Mello who put Polish pilots of Spitfires & Hurricanes  on some kind of pedestal -- who constructed them?

So we didn''t actually need foreign countries aviators: Kiwi''s, Canadian, Yanks, Aussies, Norwegian, Danish, Free French, Belgians, Poles and too many more to mention -  to fly Mr Mitchell''s superbly designed and  constructed fighter aircraft......? Good fortune that you weren''t Marshall of the Royal Air Force during the Battle of Britain......"Don''t need furriners flyin'' our fighters, we can do alright without ''em!"

A hollow and pathetic argumentative excuses from you I say. Maybe you''ve just got a personal beef with ''furriners''?....Eh?[:|]

 

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"Then again - i am in "their" country, eating their food, taking their jobs, dodging my taxes, burdening the economy and suchlike."

 

Kick It Off - I have nothing against any individual per se, but it''s a fact that migration is costing the indigenous British an absolute fortune in direct costs and also through the ever expanding bill caused by the excessive strain they are placing on our infrastructure and services.

They are also allowing the indigenous idle of Britain (some 4.9 million) who live solely on benefits to continue as they are. It would be far more productive to tackle this problem -- if someone can travel from other parts of the world to work here then I''m sure it can be made cost effective for at least some of our capable but idle to move into productive work - only once we had all of our own (who were capable of at least some kind of positive contribution) put to good use should we have allowed migrants here to seek menial jobs.

Is anyone on this forum aware that the UK is going to lose an electrical generative capacity equivalent to 4.5 million homes by 2015? The National Grid is falling apart and this cretinous bunch of morons running the country yearns to fill it with even more homes.

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