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lord montyjones

when did everyones pain start

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Early 70s too was my first game.

The pain started in the prem v Everton when the manager proved he was out of his depth by playing Edworthy and Flem in defence yet using Helveg in midfield while leaving safri & Bentley on the bench.   It was also the first time that a manager spotted the space and ruthlessly exploited the space behind hux once he was moved to the left flank in the second half, leading to their winning goal.   That goal had been coming for a while yet our manager did nothing to combat it. 

It confirmed my fears from the previous 9 games that the manager really was clueless as to what his best side was, in what formation to play then and how to address the different tactical demands of prem football so fell back to his trusted but ultimately inadequate and equally out of their depth workhorses in eddy, holt and flem.  When Helveg, Safri & Bentley were finally returned to the side we were transformed from whipping boys into a team that should have survived but for poor management.

And since then the club has been wracked by poor management choices both in the transfer market and in tactical deployment of the squad, continuing to this year which has many parallels to our last relegation season when the squad was good enough (4 more than just surviving)  but by being poorly motivated and utilised, by playing players out of position we find ourselves hot favourites, if not almost certanties, for relegation.

 

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West Ham away in our first season in the First Division (1972 I think).  We got stuffed, either 4:0 or 4:2 (can''t quite remember which).  Hardly any Norwich supporters there which made the tube trip away from Upton Park a bit intimidating - I remember lots of cockneys in their spray-painted DMs looking "well ''ard".

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Millwall away. 1-0 defeat. A midweek nonentity of a game, listened to it on the radio. Think it was the night of ''Crazy Barry'' fame. It was opbvious then something was badly wrong and had permeated deep into the club.

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My 1st game was City v Newcastle Utd in February 1973, but I wasn''t bitten by the bug back then. It wasn''t until about 1984 that I was 1st hooked. I had been to a few games with friends over those 11 or so years. What happened was I hadn''t seen City score and so I went to a few games and they did score, and I found the whole atmosphere of the crowd celebrating amazing. I decided I needed more of this and have watched the lads every season ever since.

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[quote user="ZippersLeftFoot"]

Early 70s too was my first game.

The pain started in the prem v Everton when the manager proved he was out of his depth by playing Edworthy and Flem in defence yet using Helveg in midfield while leaving safri & Bentley on the bench.   It was also the first time that a manager spotted the space and ruthlessly exploited the space behind hux once he was moved to the left flank in the second half, leading to their winning goal.   That goal had been coming for a while yet our manager did nothing to combat it. 

It confirmed my fears from the previous 9 games that the manager really was clueless as to what his best side was, in what formation to play then and how to address the different tactical demands of prem football so fell back to his trusted but ultimately inadequate and equally out of their depth workhorses in eddy, holt and flem.  When Helveg, Safri & Bentley were finally returned to the side we were transformed from whipping boys into a team that should have survived but for poor management.

And since then the club has been wracked by poor management choices both in the transfer market and in tactical deployment of the squad, continuing to this year which has many parallels to our last relegation season when the squad was good enough (4 more than just surviving)  but by being poorly motivated and utilised, by playing players out of position we find ourselves hot favourites, if not almost certanties, for relegation.

 

[/quote]

My first game was in 1985, just after the Milk Cup Final. I am the only glory-hunting City fan in the world...

I know this is slightly off-topic, but I was very interested in your analysis, ZLF. You''re consistently one of the best, most reasoned and interesting posters on this forum. I was wondering whether you believe that the club''s failings since promotion have been soley due to the management of the football side, or whether you think the directors should bear some share of the blame.

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For me it was the Cup game against Cardiff in the 59 Cup Run. In those days I was able to get in just after half time when they opened the gates. I remember as a nine year old managing to get into the main stand. I''m sure I remember Terry Bly scoring at the Barclay end........or is my memory failing me??!!??? 

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well the joy started in 1992 when i started supporting the side.....

the pain started in 1994 when i realised that i had entered into the wonders of supporting a ''selling'' club.....bye bye fox, culverhouse, sutton, robins, ekoku......add bloody infinitum.

been mostly pain since then. often wonder why i bother but once you have made your bed....

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Thanks for the kind words Robert!

For me I only comment on what I have seen and can comment on. 

The behind the scene machinations are hidden from me so I cannot say whether the crime is depriving managers of funds,  restricting coaching activities or allowing too much freedom for the managers to spend resource poorly.  Is the focus incorrectly split between on and off field activities?  How can I judge?  Its all supposition.  Is the truth we simply have a better management team for off field activities rather than on field?  

As a company we are most football clubs,  a loss making organistion who are in debt but in a reasonably well structured manner,  they are not prefect but beyond that I dont know the truth.

On the footballing side we have invested money into a squad that is more expensively remunerated and put together than most champs squads,  yet we sit where we deserve to be - bottom of the table.   For me the lack of investment on pitch is around the manager choosing to replace quality performers with expensive lower quality alternatives repeated but both previous managers;   eg Earnie for Ashton or Russell for Safri.

The only clear error from the board was the dallying in dismissing Worthy.   The appointment of both subsequent managers were neither inspirational but nor doomed to failure from the outset and had some merit;   the sacking of Grant was done at around the right time (give or take a week or so) 

Boards are always OK when we succeed and awful when we fail.  What role they are really playing I simply dont know.  What I do know is that the players have been woefully managed,  motivated and utlitised;  if I used them like that in my team I would be sacked;  but then I like to think of my team last seasons reading;   superbly outperforming budget performers. 

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5-3 defeat to Liverpool with that wonder goal by Justin. First game I went to standing in the river end on a crate with my Godfather Don Hindle.

Alas I was supporting Liverpool at the time, since my icon of the time his older son was a fan of them. I and his son both changed our ways soon after and have seen the light of green and yellow.... What a game for a first timer. Thanks Don Hindle for taking me, best present a Godfather can give.

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[quote user="ZippersLeftFoot"]

Thanks for the kind words Robert!

For me I only comment on what I have seen and can comment on. 

The behind the scene machinations are hidden from me so I cannot say whether the crime is depriving managers of funds,  restricting coaching activities or allowing too much freedom for the managers to spend resource poorly.  Is the focus incorrectly split between on and off field activities?  How can I judge?  Its all supposition.  Is the truth we simply have a better management team for off field activities rather than on field?  

As a company we are most football clubs,  a loss making organistion who are in debt but in a reasonably well structured manner,  they are not prefect but beyond that I dont know the truth.

On the footballing side we have invested money into a squad that is more expensively remunerated and put together than most champs squads,  yet we sit where we deserve to be - bottom of the table.   For me the lack of investment on pitch is around the manager choosing to replace quality performers with expensive lower quality alternatives repeated but both previous managers;   eg Earnie for Ashton or Russell for Safri.

The only clear error from the board was the dallying in dismissing Worthy.   The appointment of both subsequent managers were neither inspirational but nor doomed to failure from the outset and had some merit;   the sacking of Grant was done at around the right time (give or take a week or so) 

Boards are always OK when we succeed and awful when we fail.  What role they are really playing I simply dont know.  What I do know is that the players have been woefully managed,  motivated and utlitised;  if I used them like that in my team I would be sacked;  but then I like to think of my team last seasons reading;   superbly outperforming budget performers. 

[/quote]

I tend to agree with Robert''s verdict on you too Zipper, especially the tactical stuff. Miss your input on the board these days.

I can understand your reluctance to judge the board on what you happen to know, but the facts are these - the club made a profit for the last three years. So they are NOT a loss making organisation. However they will be this year due to loss of parachute payments.

I don''t also think Worthy was 100% to blame for his ultimate failure, he WAS trying to extract more money for further signings and DID want to get Ashton in in the summer. However, as you say no one but the board members know ALL that goes on.

As in all businesses the buck stops firmly at the top. They have appointed managers who haven''t worked out. Now they seem to have stumbled on a good one, acid test now is will they let him bring in some quality players, saying not only themselves, but the club also.

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[quote user="Canary Nut"]The PAIN started when we spent £7,036k on tangible Fixed Assets during the 2004/05 season instead of buying Ashton before the season started. [/quote]

Slightly misleading as that''s called the Jarrold Stand, which they started building the previous season and obviously had to pay for as they went along. Nevertheless, I am interested in finding out when they actually acquired the various land holdings around the ground, as I''ve got the feeling that we''ve never been told the true storey on that one. I too fail to believe no money was available to buy Ashton before the season started

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[quote user="gazzathegreat"][quote user="ZippersLeftFoot"]

Thanks for the kind words Robert!

For me I only comment on what I have seen and can comment on. 

The behind the scene machinations are hidden from me so I cannot say whether the crime is depriving managers of funds,  restricting coaching activities or allowing too much freedom for the managers to spend resource poorly.  Is the focus incorrectly split between on and off field activities?  How can I judge?  Its all supposition.  Is the truth we simply have a better management team for off field activities rather than on field?  

As a company we are most football clubs,  a loss making organistion who are in debt but in a reasonably well structured manner,  they are not prefect but beyond that I dont know the truth.

On the footballing side we have invested money into a squad that is more expensively remunerated and put together than most champs squads,  yet we sit where we deserve to be - bottom of the table.   For me the lack of investment on pitch is around the manager choosing to replace quality performers with expensive lower quality alternatives repeated but both previous managers;   eg Earnie for Ashton or Russell for Safri.

The only clear error from the board was the dallying in dismissing Worthy.   The appointment of both subsequent managers were neither inspirational but nor doomed to failure from the outset and had some merit;   the sacking of Grant was done at around the right time (give or take a week or so) 

Boards are always OK when we succeed and awful when we fail.  What role they are really playing I simply dont know.  What I do know is that the players have been woefully managed,  motivated and utlitised;  if I used them like that in my team I would be sacked;  but then I like to think of my team last seasons reading;   superbly outperforming budget performers. 

[/quote] I tend to agree with Robert''s verdict on you too Zipper, especially the tactical stuff. Miss your input on the board these days. I can understand your reluctance to judge the board on what you happen to know, but the facts are these - the club made a profit for the last three years. So they are NOT a loss making organisation. However they will be this year due to loss of parachute payments. I don''t also think Worthy was 100% to blame for his ultimate failure, he WAS trying to extract more money for further signings and DID want to get Ashton in in the summer. However, as you say no one but the board members know ALL that goes on. As in all businesses the buck stops firmly at the top. They have appointed managers who haven''t worked out. Now they seem to have stumbled on a good one, acid test now is will they let him bring in some quality players, saying not only themselves, but the club also.[/quote]

Gazzathegreat - I suppose, in trying to answer your question, it depends on where you draw the line between the Board and manager in relation to the balance between providing the funds and having an input on how it''s spent?

What I''m trying to say is, are the Board 100% responsible for providing the funds and the manager 100% responsible for spending it, which is where I think NCFC are, or are you suggesting they should also have an input into the way it''s spent? Not many managers would actually tolerate interference from a Board would they?

I''ve always thought, it''s one thing for the manager to build a team to get a Club promoted to the Premiership, it''s much harder for him to rebuild that team to keep it there. Worthy had more money than any manager before him (probably not enough) but what he had, he spent badly.

He did afterall, buy two goalkeepers (Ward and Gallacher), one right back (Helveg), one centre half (Doherty), one left back (Charlton), one right midfielder (Svensson), one central midfielder (Safri) and took Bentley on loan (none of whom would have been cheap) at a time we were crying out for a proven goalscorer, such as Ashton.

Given that the Club has spent a season in the Premiership and received two lots of parachute payments, it''s hardly surprising that there has been a profit over the last three years. What''s prehaps unforgiveable, is the level of profit?

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Gazzatcc, no I don''t think any manager would want to be told by the board how to spend the money, but surely he could question (as some of us do) why an office refurbishment (for example), was more important than money for team strengthening. NW may not have bought well in some aspects, granted, but I am convinced we could have got in Ashton (or someone else) in the summer (and not have to wait until January when the board did buy him).

As for the profits, yes, we had some substantial sums, so it makes you wonder, how come we waited every summer for all these signings, only for the same mantra to be repeated, you know the one about no one doing business in the summer? So all that was left for us were the bargain bins.

Although this is going off the original topic, the board have NOT invested heavily enough in our squad which brings us, sadly to where we are now.

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How many times?

 

Ashton was not available from Crewe in the summer before the premier season. Crewe wanted to establish themselves in the division before he was sold. We bought him in January when they thought they were relatively safe, but nearly got it wrong when they only just stayed up the last day of the season. We were the only Premier side interested in taking a gamble on him and Crewe relented and let him come to us. If he had been available that summer then the club would have bought him then!

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[quote user="gazzathegreat"]As in all businesses the buck stops firmly at the top. They have appointed managers who haven''t worked out. Now they seem to have stumbled on a good one, acid test now is will they let him bring in some quality players, saying not only themselves, but the club also.[/quote]

Gazza - The problem I have with all of this is that it stems back to over three years ago now. The facts have never altered it''s just they are perceived differently now. Not getting Ashton or Crouch in the summer of 2004 was a problem then and not now. It''s only hindsight that brings it to the fore so often three and a half years later. Worthington pointed it out back in the summer of 2006 in frustration over missing out on Hulse and Howard. Maybe if the fans had backed him a little then things could have been different. But nobody listened, prefering to stick to their agenda of getting him sacked and ridiculing him.

Zipper, as always, makes some good points about what went wrong tactically. Maybe Worthy was out of his depth in the Premiership but to be fair we can, as ZLF rightly says, only judge on what we see. When we comment on team selection all the players are completely fit and ready to play their best. In reality this isn''t the case, many of them are carrying injuries or have other problems which affect their performances and the manager has to take all this into account when he makes his selection.

How do we know the board have stumbled on a good manager after appointing managers that didn''t work out. They appointed Worthington who took the club to the Play Off Final and then to the Premiership as Champions and never finished below 9th in this league. Roeder, so far, has P3 W0 D1 L2 F3 A8 Pts1. This suggests to me they stumbled on a good one with Worthy but I am hopeful Roeder will cut the mustard too.

We  can go over and over what has happened but to say the buck firmly stops at the top begs the question why it only started stopping there this season. The truth is that we have taken our frustrations and disappointments out on the board this season where as before we had other targets. The cure can only be found in an upturn of results on the pitch making us more succesfull in the league bringing back the pride and togetherness we had in abundance a few years ago.

 

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Happy times started with Saunders. Pain started with Sutton going. The real crippling pain started when restaurants became far more important FOOTBALL. And now the pain is so bad its nearly terminal.

 

FOOTBALL MUST COME FIRST

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[quote user="Meeky"]

How many times?

 

Ashton was not available from Crewe in the summer before the premier season. Crewe wanted to establish themselves in the division before he was sold. We bought him in January when they thought they were relatively safe, but nearly got it wrong when they only just stayed up the last day of the season. We were the only Premier side interested in taking a gamble on him and Crewe relented and let him come to us. If he had been available that summer then the club would have bought him then!

[/quote]

Palace wanted him in January.  I am not so sure Ashton was a Worthy target in the summer, I certainly don''t remember any speculation about him coming here at that time.

In the end Doherty was signed to play up top.....  say no more.

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