So who is the "idiot" now Delia ?

[The Judge 0]

If any more proof was needed that there are people out there prepared to invest in Championship football clubs - its now happened at of all places Ipswich who "had" double the debt we currently have !!

Add Ipswich to; QPR, Leicester, Derby, Sunderland, Coventry, Wolves, Hull - there are probably more - just over the past 2 seasons.

Yet our beloved Delia after the AGM comes out and states there aren''t any "idiots" out there prepared to invest in Championships clubs ! Well sorry Delia you are obviously the "idiot" because there are..

With the currently financial situation we find ourselves in Doncasters full time job as Chief Exec of NCFC should be to trawl the land for new investment.

Ipswich is just more proof that the way NCFC has been run over the last 10 years has been proven to be wrong in the world that is modern football. The board is so out of touch with reality its staggering.  

[kdncfc 0]

Good post mate, prudence without ambition should have been consigned to the trash bin years ago, like it or not money is everything in football and we are falling behind all the time. It just goes to prove that if you have an open mind there are people prepared to invest in championship clubs and they aren''t all idiots. I will get behind Roeder but the common denominator in all the recent years of failure have been the board, and they sadly remain. Munby says they want to make it right but the only way to do that is to make serious money avaliable for Roeder to strengthen the squad and they seem either unable or unwilling to do that.

[T 190]

You are right that there are some idiots who are prepared to buy money into football clubs and she is right from a financial perspective you would be an idiot to put your money into a championship football club.

[YellowIce 0]

I still cannot believe she said.

Honestly to get up and say in a stern manner "if you can find idiots like us . . . . (to invest)" when talking about the club so many support so strongly.

How dare she, there are people who would invest and you are not our queen!!!

If someone questions her she spits out her dummy. . . . . .

 

[Cluck 0]

[quote user="The Judge"]

If any more proof was needed that there are people out there prepared to invest in Championship football clubs - its now happened at of all places Ipswich who "had" double the debt we currently have !!

Add Ipswich to; QPR, Leicester, Derby, Sunderland, Coventry, Wolves, Hull - there are probably more - just over the past 2 seasons.

Yet our beloved Delia after the AGM comes out and states there aren''t any "idiots" out there prepared to invest in Championships clubs ! Well sorry Delia you are obviously the "idiot" because there are..

With the currently financial situation we find ourselves in Doncasters full time job as Chief Exec of NCFC should be to trawl the land for new investment.

Ipswich is just more proof that the way NCFC has been run over the last 10 years has been proven to be wrong in the world that is modern football. The board is so out of touch with reality its staggering.  

[/quote]

It''s another of the "Delia" myths shown for what it is......and answers all of the questions raised by the "what would we do without Delia" brigade.

Smith has taken the good nature of the Norwich City fan and treated us as "idiots" to further her own personal agenda....but surely this charade is finally beginning to be seen as the cynical ploy it always was....isn''t it?

[Mr.Carrow 376]

[quote user="T"]

You are right that there are some idiots who are prepared to buy money into football clubs and she is right from a financial perspective you would be an idiot to put your money into a championship football club.

[/quote]

T, you seem to be a financially clued up person, but i think it`s stretching it a bit to make out that all the people who have taken over at the clubs listed above (plus Sunderland and Derby who have been promoted) are financially naive idiots.

This deal would also suggest that Delia`s shareholding in Norwich-with half the debt and a MUCH more valuable asset base than Ipswich-is worth a hell of a lot more than she paid for it.

[Time to go Delia 0]

Why worry we have money for loans , another couple of Hartsons in the side and we will be flying .

[dougal 0]

Not sure you can count Coventry. Having to sell the club to stop it going out of business is a bit different to finding a buyer prepared to invest for the good of the club.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/c/coventry_city/7070491.stm

 

 

[T 190]

Mr C - I am sure you are right those people who put money into football clubs are not naive idiots and I would buy Norwich if I had 40m cash that I could afford to lose and I like to think I am not an idiot. The point I was seeking to make is that I think those people who buy football clubs generally are very wealthy individuals who have made some money else where who do it as an interest rather than as a financial investment. I just think from a purely financial perspective league football clubs are a hobby rather than a financial investment and therefore if you buy a football club with the idea of making money then the directors are right to suggest that you could be considered an idiot. Football clubs are generally not commercial enterprises run for a profit. From a pure cash flow perspective I very much doubt if the club is worth what the directors have put in. Championship clubs are generally loss making so as a pure financial investment they are worthless. That is not to say someone would not be willing to still pay a lot of money for a football club because they are a scarse and desirable commodity. In the case of Ipswich it sounds as if they have attracted new investors but it does not sound as if the existing shareholders are making any money. No doubt there would be someone who would be willing to buy the club but given that the Turners who are some of the richest people in the country don''t seem to have spare cash to put into the club I think it is fair to say they is not a queue of people with loads of spare cash willing to put it into the club but then we only need one such person.

I hope and suspect that the Turners will put more cash in and maybe Callum will when he retires. The problem is that the whole thing just spirals and we are getting into the crazy siuation where it just depends which club has the richest suger daddy/mummy which is good for the player but not us. I would like to see a system where clubs are not run at a loss and can''t just use investors to buy success: However, I might change my view if Callum bought us. 

[Show Me What You Gooot! 0]

Anyone think she should be kept locked up in a box somewhere, away from the public and the wine cellar?

[Shyster 0]

Come on guys let me f ****ing moderate yes! In fact f**k moderation, I should buy the f***ing club yes! Get rid of the cook and bring in a proper f***ing chef yes! My portfolio is worth over 60 million quid and I know a thing or two about f***ing football - f**k I use to play for Rangers and I still run f***ing marathons yes! -- Delia''s old and struggles to walk to the f***ing directors box yes! And f**k the pastry pies at half-time, I''ll see that there''s some filling in the b**tard things...........Yes!?!

[BlyBlyBabes 0]

The judge has spoken.

What will the sentence be?

I await with trepidation.

Let off with a suspended sentence by the prisonersonseasonticketseats?

Or has ''the worm'' turned at last?

OTBC

 

 

 

[Syteanric 1]

there are 26,000 ''idiots'' then..... all the fans have put money into Norwich city.. and what have they got back then Delia? Nothing?!

jas :)

[broadie 0]

[quote user="The Judge"]

Ipswich is just more proof that the way NCFC has been run over the last 10 years has been proven to be wrong in the world that is modern football. The board is so out of touch with reality its staggering.  

[/quote]

So buying excessive amounts of, and paying, foreign players too much money, getting relegated after doing so well in the first season back in the Prem, nearly going bankrupt, paying back your thousands of local investors a pittance in the pound, having someone invest £44m and still only end up with around £10m after all the debt is paid off is something we should be emulating, eh?

Which business school did you go to?

 

[lobster catcher 0]

[quote user="Gordon Ramsey"]Come on guys let me f ****ing moderate yes! In fact f**k moderation, I should buy the f***ing club yes! Get rid of the cook and bring in a proper f***ing chef yes! My portfolio is worth over 60 million quid and I know a thing or two about f***ing football - f**k I use to play for Rangers and I still run f***ing marathons yes! -- Delia''s old and struggles to walk to the f***ing directors box yes! And f**k the pastry pies at half-time, I''ll see that there''s some filling in the b**tard things...........Yes!?![/quote]F***ing class gordon,f***ing class[:D]

[broadie 0]

[quote user="NEIL CLUCKCASTER"][quote user="The Judge"]

If any more proof was needed that there are people out there prepared to invest in Championship football clubs - its now happened at of all places Ipswich who "had" double the debt we currently have !!

Add Ipswich to; QPR, Leicester, Derby, Sunderland, Coventry, Wolves, Hull - there are probably more - just over the past 2 seasons.

Yet our beloved Delia after the AGM comes out and states there aren''t any "idiots" out there prepared to invest in Championships clubs ! Well sorry Delia you are obviously the "idiot" because there are..

With the currently financial situation we find ourselves in Doncasters full time job as Chief Exec of NCFC should be to trawl the land for new investment.

Ipswich is just more proof that the way NCFC has been run over the last 10 years has been proven to be wrong in the world that is modern football. The board is so out of touch with reality its staggering.  

[/quote]

It''s another of the "Delia" myths shown for what it is......and answers all of the questions raised by the "what would we do without Delia" brigade.

Smith has taken the good nature of the Norwich City fan and treated us as "idiots" to further her own personal agenda....but surely this charade is finally beginning to be seen as the cynical ploy it always was....isn''t it?

[/quote]

Exactly what is this cynical ploy you keep harping on about? Is there some dark overlord out there who has a predetermined fate for us all? Or is it just the voices in your head?

[Paul Lamberts Disciple 0]

[quote user="Gordon Ramsey"]Come on guys let me f ****ing moderate yes! In fact f**k moderation, I should buy the f***ing club yes! Get rid of the cook and bring in a proper f***ing chef yes! My portfolio is worth over 60 million quid and I know a thing or two about f***ing football - f**k I use to play for Rangers and I still run f***ing marathons yes! -- Delia''s old and struggles to walk to the f***ing directors box yes! And f**k the pastry pies at half-time, I''ll see that there''s some filling in the b**tard things...........Yes!?![/quote]

Brilliant.

[The Judge 0]

[quote user="broadie"][quote user="The Judge"]

Ipswich is just more proof that the way NCFC has been run over the last 10 years has been proven to be wrong in the world that is modern football. The board is so out of touch with reality its staggering.  

[/quote]

So buying excessive amounts of, and paying, foreign players too much money, getting relegated after doing so well in the first season back in the Prem, nearly going bankrupt, paying back your thousands of local investors a pittance in the pound, having someone invest £44m and still only end up with around £10m after all the debt is paid off is something we should be emulating, eh?

Which business school did you go to?

 

[/quote]

 

The school which shows that in the end it doesn''t make a difference if you at least go for it and mess up their is always someone to pick up the pieces. The tripe we have been fed with by our board around we don''t want to do a Leeds, Ipswich, Southampton etc etc preaching the mantra around about the club not being here if they were "reckless", being the custodians of the club for future generations blah blah, waffle waffle - exactly how many clubs have gone out of existence ??

You could actually argue pretty strongly that the way NCFC has been run as a football club has been reckless, over investment in off field activities, whilst systematically investing less and less in the thing that is a the heart of any club - the team, the thing that is the greatest revenue generator - whilst still running up a debt of around £17m with no chance of paying it back. Pretty good going eh - even at my school..

[Creative Midfielder 1,985]

[quote user="The Judge"]

The school which shows that in the end it doesn''t make a difference if you at least go for it and mess up their is always someone to pick up the pieces.

[/quote]

Really??

There are people in Leeds who have lost their jobs and businesses because people with morals like yours ''messed up''.

I''d love to see you tell them in person that it doesnt make a difference.

[lucky green trainers 0]

[quote user="The Judge"][quote user="broadie"][quote user="The Judge"]

Ipswich is just more proof that the way NCFC has been run over the last 10 years has been proven to be wrong in the world that is modern football. The board is so out of touch with reality its staggering.  

[/quote]

So buying excessive amounts of, and paying, foreign players too much money, getting relegated after doing so well in the first season back in the Prem, nearly going bankrupt, paying back your thousands of local investors a pittance in the pound, having someone invest £44m and still only end up with around £10m after all the debt is paid off is something we should be emulating, eh?

Which business school did you go to?

 

[/quote] 

The school which shows that in the end it doesn''t make a difference if you at least go for it and mess up their is always someone to pick up the pieces. The tripe we have been fed with by our board around we don''t want to do a Leeds, Ipswich, Southampton etc etc preaching the mantra around about the club not being here if they were "reckless", being the custodians of the club for future generations blah blah, waffle waffle - exactly how many clubs have gone out of existence ??

You could actually argue pretty strongly that the way NCFC has been run as a football club has been reckless, over investment in off field activities, whilst systematically investing less and less in the thing that is a the heart of any club - the team, the thing that is the greatest revenue generator - whilst still running up a debt of around £17m with no chance of paying it back. Pretty good going eh - even at my school..

[/quote]

agreed, it would be reckless not to invest to escape relegation

wouldnt'' it???  glad to see mumbles has released some money to get

taylor in - or did brum waive loan fee?? or paying part of his wage??? 

love to know this info.

[The Judge 0]

[quote user="Creative Midfielder"][quote user="The Judge"]

The school which shows that in the end it doesn''t make a difference if you at least go for it and mess up their is always someone to pick up the pieces.

[/quote]

Really??

There are people in Leeds who have lost their jobs and businesses because people with morals like yours ''messed up''.

I''d love to see you tell them in person that it doesnt make a difference.

[/quote]

No these aren''t my morals at all CM and Leeds is an absloute one off example. Ridsdale and Co ran up debts of nearly £70m buying every player in sight and paying way over the odds for them. Absolutely reckless to the extreme -and for Doomcaster and co to use them as an example for the reason they shouldn''t invest in players is a joke. But look at them now - I think most people wouldn''t bet against being promoted back into the Championship in the next 2 seasons (they may even do it this season)- and then leapfrog us in a few seasons time. So even being as reckless as them - will they be in a worse position as a football team as we will should things stay the same at Carrow Road ? - the answer is absolutely not.

Even Ipswich who went into administration - have they been in a worse position than us a football team over the past 2/3 seasons ?? - results on the pitch would suggest not.

Now I am not advocating we should be anywhere near as reckless as Leeds, or indeed Ipswich when they were in the Premiership and racked up their debts. But what I am saying is that the NCFC boards prudence approach in the medium to long term (as is being proven now with our league position and financial debts) doesn''t work in the world that is modern football. Clubs can gamble for success, probably more now than ever, as the interest from investors is greater now than it has ever been. So if a club got into trouble there would be someone to come in and take over if things went pear shaped.

Coventry will be an interesting case in point. They have said they will go into administration by December if they don''t attract investment - wonder if they will find someone to buy them ??? - of course they will. If they don''t and go into adminstration, get relegated, plummet down the leagues and disappear into oblivion then I''ll gladly eat my hat.

So back to my original point - there are investors out there Delia - and boy do we need investment - if you can''t take the club forwards find some other "idiot" that will. I''m sure all these successful businessmen buying into Championship clubs at the moment appreciate being called "idiots" - from someone whose half time speach against Man City was an inspiration for them all !!!  

[T 190]

Its not investment though. The standard way to value a business is 5x recurring Earnings Before Interest Depreciation and Tax less the debt. I don''t know the exact figures but then the figures for NCFC would be something like 0.1m profit last year plus 4m depreciation less 3m profit on players (non-recurring if you look at our squad now) less 7m TV money we no long get gives negative 3m recurring profit. Therefore the value of the business would be the recurring profit times 5 gives an enterprise value of negative 15m. Deduct the 17m debt gives a share value of negative 32m. Therefore anyone who pays anything to buy the shares would be an idiot if they were looking to make money. I am sure the people who buy football clubs know this as they have made money elsewhere so Delia''s comment was entirely reasonable. Championship football clubs are looking for wealthy people who are willing to give their money away but don''t kid yourselves that any business person thinks a championship football club is a good investment. Even if you get promoted, the money that you makes has to go into keeping you in the premiership so it only the few big clubs such as Man U, Arsenal and Liverpool with worldwide brands which are potentially good financial investments.

[Mr.Carrow 376]

[quote user="T"]

Its not investment though. The standard way to value a business is 5x recurring Earnings Before Interest Depreciation and Tax less the debt. I don''t know the exact figures but then the figures for NCFC would be something like 0.1m profit last year plus 4m depreciation less 3m profit on players (non-recurring if you look at our squad now) less 7m TV money we no long get gives negative 3m recurring profit. Therefore the value of the business would be the recurring profit times 5 gives an enterprise value of negative 15m. Deduct the 17m debt gives a share value of negative 32m. Therefore anyone who pays anything to buy the shares would be an idiot if they were looking to make money. I am sure the people who buy football clubs know this as they have made money elsewhere so Delia''s comment was entirely reasonable. Championship football clubs are looking for wealthy people who are willing to give their money away but don''t kid yourselves that any business person thinks a championship football club is a good investment. Even if you get promoted, the money that you makes has to go into keeping you in the premiership so it only the few big clubs such as Man U, Arsenal and Liverpool with worldwide brands which are potentially good financial investments.

[/quote]

T, i know we`ve been through all this before but to rely on the standard valuation model to assess a football club is basically misleading. Plenty of companies (oil exploration, nano-technology etc.) are valued at tens of millions whilst making big losses and have little in the way of assets. People invest in them because if they get it right, the rewards are enormous. Norwich City are a club with a huge supporter base (and catchment area), growing revenue streams (supposedly), valuable fixed assets and smallish running losses. The "rewards" of succesful investment could be selling top talent for millions, or the 3 in 22 chance of a promotion worth at least £50million over three years. The standard model has no relevance in this context.

[vos 155]

Mr Carrow and T obviously know what they are talking about on this subject. However I can''t agree with Mr C when he says promotion is worth £50 million over three years. This is simply Sky income most of which immediatedly dissapears on the purchase/salaries of new players. Ask David Sheepshanks.It has to be this way because the fans insist it is spend to "improve" the squad. If you try to be prudent and think long term you will be criticised. Ask Delia Smith.

It is interesting to note that most of the crazy money coming into football is from overseas/offshore. There always seems to be something not quite right in the background. The sad fact is that despite all this money coming into the game, there are now some four big teams and the rest make up the numbers. The days of underdogs, giantkillers etc have long since gone. I have to sadly confess I pay a lot of money to Sky, but most of the games leave me cold. Additionally, in a couple of years time the English national team will even be worse than it is now.

 

[T 190]

Mr C - VOS has summed up what the key argument in my response would be nicely about the money going back into players. Therefore unlike an oil enterprise or biotech company I don''t think there is a potential crock of gold on promotion. I think Mystic megson''s post a while back showing the low profitability of premiership clubs supports this view.

Incidentally, I also agree with Vos''s other views. The positive thing I would say about the current Sky arrangements is that I think the standard of club football at the very top has improved but overall I find the premiership less interesting. However things will not change unless subsciptions to Sky drop dramatically. Interestingly, pay TV sport is not nearly as successful in other European countries which may explain why the premiership clubs have done well in Europe but also why other leagues tend to be more competitive. 

I''d totally agree with you that football clubs are not a normal business. I''m only pointing out that I don''t think championship football clubs are a great financial investment as some seem to suggest and that you can''t make a great deal of money out of the cash flows of the business (the likes of ManU excepted.) As the directors are not getting any divis or interest they will only make money when they sell the business as you suggest. The cash flows of a championship football club based on the low profitability are worthless and therefore the valuation of the club is simply based on what someone is willing to pay for a football club when you sell up. So to make money out of a club you are relying on the pyramid selling principle of someone being financially irrational (an "idiot") like the internet business valuations of a few years ago which is a risky investment model. I''d agree that this sell on valuation should up if you get promoted and I''d like to think the odds are better than 3/24 for Norwich although clearly they are not at the moment. So I would agree that you could make some money out of the club from promotion (I suspect some financial engineering of the debt at Ipswich as others have suggested) but I think it is a high risk gamble for the very wealthy. 

[Mr.Carrow 376]

Vos and T, the obvious point to make is that a club does not HAVE to spend the Prem millions on players and wages. NCFC clearly did not as we made £12million in profits whilst recieving the £32million or so Sky money and pumped millions into uneccessary infrastructure projects during this period.

I would say that a cheap investment in a struggling Championship side would immediately gain in value upon promotion, but would obviously be worth much more given a longer-term Prem stint. Of course, a football club is only worth money if someone wants to buy it and the more people who become interested, the greater the return is likely to be. I would say at the moment that more and more people are looking at football clubs as an investment and it could snowball. I do agree T that most people interested at the moment seem to be very wealthy who can afford the risk millions, but then on a global scale there are plenty of those about. Plenty of those very people made their millions by focussing on the "high-risk" end of investment and i think that the cut and thrust of football appeals to those sorts of people.

Whether this kind of investment is desirable or not is up for debate but the more other clubs achieve it, whilst we won`t even consider it, the more we will be left behind.

[Mr.Carrow 376]

[quote user="T"]

Its not investment though. The standard way to value a business is 5x recurring Earnings Before Interest Depreciation and Tax less the debt. I don''t know the exact figures but then the figures for NCFC would be something like 0.1m profit last year plus 4m depreciation less 3m profit on players (non-recurring if you look at our squad now) less 7m TV money we no long get gives negative 3m recurring profit. Therefore the value of the business would be the recurring profit times 5 gives an enterprise value of negative 15m. Deduct the 17m debt gives a share value of negative 32m. Therefore anyone who pays anything to buy the shares would be an idiot if they were looking to make money. I am sure the people who buy football clubs know this as they have made money elsewhere so Delia''s comment was entirely reasonable. Championship football clubs are looking for wealthy people who are willing to give their money away but don''t kid yourselves that any business person thinks a championship football club is a good investment. Even if you get promoted, the money that you makes has to go into keeping you in the premiership so it only the few big clubs such as Man U, Arsenal and Liverpool with worldwide brands which are potentially good financial investments.

[/quote]

Also T, in that valuation you are not considering Net Asset Value. The club own the land the ground is on, land worth £10million around it, and a large parcel of land at the training ground. The value of this easily covers the debt. I know that this theoretically leaves the club open to asset-strippers but would anyone want to take on 30,000 enraged supporters? I don`t think so.

[T 190]

Mr C - pretty much agree with everything you say although we have debated how much of the infrastructure was wasted elsewhere. As we see with the Ipswich discussion it is possible to make money by gambling on promotion and not putting everything into the team. However, I think we would all like to see someone who was willing to leave the money in the club if we got promoted rather than make a fast buck. It does all depend on getting promotion and there can only be a few winners and a lot of losers in the championship football club investment gamble which is a bit like the internet bubble or pyramid selling. It is a pity that the sky jackpot is turning football into a rich person''s gamble especially when you look at our crowds and that we are not one of the richest person''s plaything.

[vos 155]

Mr Carrow is quite correct to say the "Premiership Millions" do not have to be paid on players.However, I do not think the directors have any alternative. The fans simply demand it is spent in the hope of improving the team. I would suggest 90% of contributors to these "boards" adopt this attitude and indeed a good proportion would have us borrow more millions.

I would guess the current directors know most football clubs cannot generate profits and be run on normal business lines and paying out large sums to players is in most cases pouring money down the drain. I think they have taken the view that investment in bricks and mortar will minimise losses. Having said that they have spent far too much time and resources on this approach and as we are painfully aware they have taken their eye of the football side. Most of the infrastructure at Carrow Road is more like a conference centre than a football ground.

Football finances are a juggling act and despite his many critics Robert Chase more or less got it right for many years. In his days there was little money in the game and top quality players could be bought for reasonable amounts. Nowadays we seem to have a few people about with money to burn and it seems a case that if you are lucky to attract such an individual such as the enemy down the road, then that to some extent gives them unfair advantage which you can do nothing about. I think that is bad for football.

[T 190]

Mr C - sounds like we are in agreement. Just a technicality - it is correct to exclude the net asset value from the valuation of a business as you only look at the future cash flows and not the money that has already spent in the past. i.e. if I buy this business/investment now what cash will I get in return in the future. Therefore, I am assuming that the property will be retained and not sold off ie it is run as a going concern. The valuation of these assets is already implicitly taken into account in my valuation in terms of the fact that we are not paying rent or are receiving rental income in the EBITDA multiple otherwise you are double counting. You would be right that any net cash that can be generated from any surplus assets eg land should be added to the valuation though. A bubble occurs when the prices being paid are more than the value of the cash flows and is not normally sustainable.

The sad thing is that we are even discussing this on a football board but unfortunately like it or not these days money is all too relevant to the current and future position of football clubs. Although I understand that Deloittes found that the correlation between financial status and league position is not as strong in the championship as it is in the premiership.

To be honest I had not thought of the apparent Ipswich scenario of buying a club and not putting the money back into the team. However, in our current league position I can not seen us even being of interest to a financial buyer. Therefore I would have thought a change in owners is more likely if we start doing something crazy like winning football matches, hopefully starting today.