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blacko

England

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I am not totally surprised that no one has started a thread about last night. We are all gutted.
Personally I was disappointed at the way we played, like the game against the French we sat back after scoring and let them come on as much as they wanted.

Beckham, Scholes, Gerrard and Lampard were not up to their usual standard, plus Rooney going off. Despite all this we did score a perfectly good goal. Which alll makes it harder to take.

If only?

What do you think?

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I agree with you, blacko, about the second half tactics and sitting too deep. That was disappointing, to say the least. It just made things worse that there didn''t seem to be anything wrong with Campbell''s ''goal''. Let''s just say I (and a few million others, I daresay) had a real sense of foreboding when it went to penalties, in the same way as I did for us at Cardiff two seasons ago. The rest seemed like history repeating itself...a big dollop of deja vu! Oh well, here''s to 2006 I suppose.

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I am miserable.

Your comments are spot on, but I would add that the ref not only didn''t give the goal when the linesman said it was in (and he had a better view), but furthermore the ref gave numerous fouls against England for nothing. Terrible referring all round.

However, the ref is solely to blame - beckham was awful again and his peno was atrocious. The whole team played poorly, but I can''t help but wonder wht would have happened if Rooney hadn''t been injured...

This is just another heartbreak to add to my collection that includes Norwich, England and girls.

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I think that if you play negative football, you deserve to lose. We all laughed at Italy and Spain because they played so "negatively" but neither of them sat in their own half for 80 mins and just hoofed the ball up the field for a breather.

The fans in pub I was at were cheering every clearance - that is always a bad sign. Our only chances were chasing long balls with our quick strikers. Owen and the defence (apart from Terry) were all brilliant - the rest of them sucked.

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I agree blacko.

I want to blame to referee for the disallowed goal, and I want to say if only Rooney hadn''t got injured it would all be different. But for me I know England could have won the game in normal time if only we''d been more positive in our play and taken control.

But in sitting back on a one goal lead Sven showed he''s learnt nothing from the France defeat. Or indeed the Brazil world cup defeat. Portugal were always positive, where as our lot only got forward in numbers once Portugal equalised and went 2-1 up.

Another England campaign ending with more "if onlys".



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Just a couple of thoughts. Firstly, England entered this Faustian pact of getting a foreign manager in return for winning a trophy or two. Well, so far we''ve won naff all. We were getting to quarter and semi-finals before Sven, and after two major competitions he has improved things not one jot. If we''re going to fail anyway, let''s fail with an English manager. At least we''d keep a bit more self-respect.
Secondly, Beckham seems to be well past his peak. He was never much of a leader-of-men, and now he no longer produces the goods on the pitch he should be dropped, at least until he gets his head together again. An ear-ringed skinhead with a tatoo on his neck? Bobby Moore must be turning in his grave.

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You can talk about tactics till the cows come home - it doesn''t change the fact that at international level English players still look inferior in both fitness and skill. The predictable response when we fail to dominate games is to suggest that we played poorly, were unlucky with injuries, got the thick end of bad decisions blah blah blah. Fact is, when push comes to shove we just can''t cut it. How many times does it have to happen before we accept that we''re simply not good enough?
And to everyone who thinks that tactically we decide to sit on a 1-0 lead - if only that were the case. Last night our much vaunted midfield was outrun, outpassed, out-thought and ultimately outclassed.
Still gutted though - but to suggest that we deserved to go through (although granted the Campbell decision was a travesty) is way wide of the mark.

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Wow, I''ve read 8 posts on this thread and no one has mentioned the fact that it was Portugal who beat us, and not England who lost it. (There is a difference).

The reason England defended deeply, just like two years ago against Brazil, is because an excellent oppostition came at us with everything they had. They scored two good goals as a result. Lets be honest, Lampards goal was a complete surprise and wasn''t deserved. Lets not blame Beckham, or blame Sven, or blame the ref (ok I do a bit because the Sols last minute goal was good). Lets admit like men (and women) that we were outclassed by a very good Portugese team last night.

Just for the record I now support the Czech Republic for the rest of the month, they fully deserve to win the tournament just for beating Germany with their reserves!!!! Chuckle.

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Hey fool although like everyone else i am really disapointed with going out last night as i thought we could win the tournament I have to object to one of your points. England just qualified for their first European Championship Quarter Finals on foreign soil, the only other time being in England in 96 and how many Euros have there been? So Eriksson has achieved something no other England manager has. I''m not the biggest fan of his but the stats don''t lie.

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Fool on the Hill, I realise your name is taken from a Macca moment of magic, but don''t live up to it. Foreign or not foreign, the team is English and the nationality of the manager means nothing whatsoever. Personally, the way Ericsson reacts to the idiots in the media and the "angry mob" nationalists (the ones who tried to get Venables re-instated) who think they can dictate who''s in the squad or not, has been a breath of fresh air.

We were in the semi-finals in 1990 under a one-off brilliant English manager.

We were in the semi-finals in 1996 because we were playing at home - basically.

Other than that, what "Quarter Finals and Semi Finals" were you watching???? I would list all our pathetic attempts at tournaments, but it would be both sad of me, and depressing for you.

Sven has to work with players who genuinely can''t keep the ball - I think he''s done ok and I can''t see Alan Curbishley (the new Graham Taylor) doing anything but harm.

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It does frustrate me when I hear people talking like this. People always harp on about England not being as skilful and fit as other teams. England are definitely one of the fittest teams in the tournament without doubt, the prem is the fastest league in the world and as skill if our players aren''t as skilful as other countries none of them would play for the top teams in the prem as they can buy whoever they like from around the world. A few years ago it was true that England were poor technically but not anymore. This is why everything in modern English training is done with a ball nowadays. The fact is I don''t think England deserved to win last but this IS down to tactics and mentality. We would of been far better not scoring that early goal as we would have played our great high tempo passing game but we scored early retreated like usual and invited pressure. This wasn''t down to a lack of ability or fitness this is about being brave enough to squeeze the game into their half and most of all keeping the ball. When u chase the ball for long periods and then win it back u just need to keep it yourself for a little while and move the game into their half but for some reason we trying attack everytime we got it with a lack of numbers forward ie just Vassell and Owen we just lost the ball and then had to chase it again. Sometimes our players would have a simple option but instead try an ping a 50 yard ball down field then we''d lose it again and chase round trying to win it back again. This is down to wrong opiopns and tactics not lack of ability.

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ah tufnell park, come on mate, you can''t do much about england, or norwich, but girls, what is going wrong there?

i know this is not football related, but it is summer, so spill the beans, use my shoulder (i haven''t talked to you before, i am female by the way!), and tell me who''s broken your heart

not a norwich city fan i trust!

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it does annoy me about beckham tho!...you get payed over 100 grand a week, captain of england, and you miss THREE penaltys in a row, when you country needs you to put them away most..i also thought the dissalowed goal was a goal, but cant understand why the ref dissalowed it, from his position.terrys arm was on ricardos shoulder, and ricardo went down.the ref was also some distance away.

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I have to say I agree with most of what''s been said here. I''ve always defended Sven as a man who might not play good football, but wins matches (only 1 defeat in 20 plus competitive matches before the tournament started is an excellent record, you must admit). However what worried me last night was that he appears not to have learnt from the mistakes in the France match - why take off the players that can still win you the game? A tired Gerrard could still create an opening or score the winner, a fresh-legged Phil Neville wouldn''t. Also, why were we getting deeper and deeper and deeper defensively? Their shooting was wayward, but to defend so deep and expect to get away with it for 80-odd minutes is a bigger gamble than trying to push on and score a second. Simply, all teams that have tried to defend one goal leads (Germany, Italy, Spain, ourselves against France and Holland against the Czech Republic) have lived to regret it.

My other problem, which I think is slightly more controversial, is that I''d have replaced Rooney with Heskey. No no, stop laughing. The reason being that our combined strike-force had a height of about 4 feet. I know Rooney is hardly a giant, but his strength was dropping off into space between defence and midfield. Neither Owen or Vassell can do this. So not only did we not have any height to challenge in the air for our hopeful punts up field, but we didn''t have anyone linking up with our midfield and causing problems all over the pitch.

On the whole, I think Sven has done a good job so far, but he needs to lose this cautious approach. Worthy did it to great effect - learn from him, Sven!

Here''s hoping Greeno has a good start in the Prem next season, because I for one can''t take too much more of Calamity James flapping at crosses!

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Gazzathegreat, thanks for you concern, but I haven''t had my heart broken in a while (maybe I''ve fractured some myself though).

Infact, I''m living with a great girl who I have even managed to convert into a norwich fan inside 2 years. ( I think the promotion helped a bit).

The pain of a penalty defeat just dragged up some old memories...I''d spill the beans but I''m sure pinkun fans aren''t interested in the details of my previous heartbreaks! : D

Keep it going Pinkun fans the new season is ages away....


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Fair play to Tufnell, he''s also converted his girlfriend into an england fan despite her being welsh! Good work chap!

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Well spotted on the Macca reference, bananaman. However, I''m not sure what you think I''m in danger of living up to. You might have missed the point of the song.
You are very slick at dismissing the semis of 90 and 96, but I would suggest that your ''arguments'' are fundamentally tendentious. How would you explain away the world cup quarter finals in ''82 and ''86?
If Sven was anywhere near on target for winning in 2006, one would expect at the very least a semi final in this lesser tournament.

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The point of the song has nothing to do with my comment, I just said don''t live up to the title, as I thought your point was slightly ... well ... foolish.

I thought we didn''t get to the quarter finals in 1982, it was the "last 32" or round 2, or something. And I was including ''86 under the banner of the "one-off great English manager", Sir Bobby of Robson-ville.

I think you may have dismissed the point of your own argument by stating we should at least get to the semis of this "lesser" tournament. In Euro 88 we didn''t win a game yet reached the semis of the following World Cup. In USA 94 we weren''t, yet we reached the semis of Euro 96. And the European Chamionships are certainly not lesser. There is no Iran/S Korea/Senegal etc some of whom excelled but then fell apart later in the tournament leaving the coast clear for the Germans to sneak in.

Anyway, I am certainly not enamoured with Sven, but he is a "World Class" manager - ie he''s won championships in three different countries, and the UEFA(?) cup with Gothenburg. Can you name one Englishman who can say that (apart from Uncle Bobby, he''s done his time)? I just hope by the time Sven goes we have a replacement who has proved their worth.

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World class is as world class does, bananaman. Sven ain''t world class, at least not yet.
I think you''re getting a little muddled. My argument is that we should be seeing a significant trend of improvement in successive tournaments, PRECISELY as we saw in 1990 over 1988, and in 1996 over 1994. We have not seen any such improvement over the last two years.
Finally, OF COURSE the European Championship is a lesser tournament than the World Cup, because by definition it excludes giants of world football Brazil and Argentina. To argue otherwise is simply absurd, and undermines your credibility.

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Quite frankly, I think you''re all getting a little muddled. In over 70 years of international competition is it not true that England has only won one major tournament. So all the hand wringing and debate about what''s gone wrong this time, while it kills time on a coffee break or message board ( until the new season starts ), is not only ground that has has already been covered, but done so by a number of generations. Possibly we should bring back the Home international competition. England might have a good shot at that, although I would not bet the house on it.

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As it often is, it was the combination of our tactics and Portugal''s tactics that won them the match - a "scissors, paper, stone" effect. We started by trying to play continental football, passing the ball around in our own half, patient build-ups etc. Only that doesn''t work when the opposition don''t give time on the ball, when they harry you and close you down like Portugal did. We ended up with our defence and midfield, and their midfield and strikers all playing in a small part of our half. Consequently, a lot of our short passes were intercepted, and the game was happening too far from our strikers, who, being vertically challenged, weren''t suited to receiving long balls. Because of the British football culture (those two words look a bit odd together don''t they), we can only play attacking football convincingly. And this particular team''s strengths are: attacking full-backs, attack-minded midfielders, and small, pacy strikers. How sensible is it to try to impose a defensive, percentage, strategy on a side like that? It reminded me of watching Martin Offiah dancing a tango.

In truth, Portugal didn''t play well at all, but their tactics prevented us from performing at any level. Well done them.

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