Jump to content
Note to existing users - password reset is required Read more... ×
Sign in to follow this  
gsr600

Myth about investment

Recommended Posts

im curious, we all seem to go on about the need for investment but has anyone really thought about what it takes to actually buy out a majority shareholder, i mean theres two routes obviously the majority shareholder can sell his or her shares but the other method is for a person or consortium to buy at least 42% of th clubs shares and request a take over bid for the remaining share, well the latter obviously isnt going to happen as the majority shareholder hold more of the club then is required for some one to buy enough shares, so the only option is that the majority shareholder sells, now she or he can be made to feel as unfortabley welcomed at the club so it makes it almost impossible for her/him to remain in major shares so she sells, or she sells the shares to someone who can definately take the club forward, eg wolves, major shareholder sold his shares as long as money was ploughed into the club and team, personally i cant see as someone put in a previous post a brighter future even with a new major shareholder in lace that isnt a fan, this is because as stated the board has a policy,  the only way forward is for the club to have new faces as major shareholders, new investment, a completely new board of directors and a new board policy, however what invstment is required from someone new, well to start we all know that delias shares are worth about 8 million so first the layout is gonna be 8 million, that however doesnt clear the debt which we all know is at around 20 million, so the layout so far is about 28million, which if we all agree is  quite alot of money, then what, how much will it cost to fix the damage done to the team, i mean the infrastructure is brill, and its gonna make alot of money if the debt is clear,so roughly how much would be requird to completely overhaul the top of the club, in my opinion to get everything straight and have anychance of future sucess at least 50mill is needed, so anyone got that lying round and is a lifelong supporter who isnt gonna scoop every bit of profit out of the club for himself, which ufortunatley is what a lot of foriegn investers will do, the profts need to go back into developing the team and making sure the club runs smoothlyso debate please on what your thoughts are about investment

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Welcom aboard Matthew,

Well te debt is not owed to Delia, so any new investor does not have to stump up cash for this. The debt is securitized and owed to the finance companies, so as long as the new investor can service the loan payments the initial layout requied is for whatever Delia is prepared to sell her stake (should that be steak?)

Hopefully a new investor will also pump some money into new players, otherwise we will go nowhere fast.

BTW, Delia converted all her loans to shares, this will give her a clean break from the club when she goes - but bet you a pound to a pancake, that retains some rights in the catering side of NCFC.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

torquay, a team at the arse end of England, who have spent the past 85 years flitting between the bottom 2 divisions and are now in the conference... were bought out in the Summer and all their debts were wiped out by the new owners who said they were an attractive proposition.

 How then, can a team who have a worse record then perennial whipping boys rochdale openly find investment and  team who were in the premiership 3 years ago cant? Answer: the board make it hard to sell us.. I bet any investor would buy into us.. but the bullish board wont allow it unless the person is right...

my point is if Torquay can be bought out then we can.... this quashes the "theres no investor" Rubbish dead.. there is.... the club needs to give to take...

jas :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote]torquay,

a team at the arse end of England, who have spent the past 85 years

flitting between the bottom 2 divisions and are now in the

conference... were bought out in the Summer and all their debts were

wiped out by the new owners who said they were an attractive

proposition.[/quote]Torquay''s takeover makes for interesting reading according to wiki, backed up with references from BBC Sport...[quote]In October 2006, Bateson stepped down as chairman to be replaced by Chris Roberts, who soon afterwards sacked Atkins,[2] replacing him with former Czech international Luboš Kubík.[3]

Despite his credentials as a player, there was some concern raised that

Kubik had no real history as a coach, and he did little to endear

himself to fans by bringing in Richard Hancox

as coach. Torquay''s dire form continued, and the club crashed to the

bottom of the table. Kubik eventually quit on February 5, and Colin Lee

was soon after appointed as the new director of football.[4] Keith Curle was appointed as Head Coach on February 7, 2007.

Roberts resigned amid growing pressure from supporters and the board of

directors, all of whom were unhappy with his conduct as chairman, on February 21, 2007.[5] Local hotel owner Keith Richardson was announced as the new chairman the following day. [6] However, on March 7, 2007 former chairman Mike Bateson

was reappointed as chairman, the move following Chris Roberts'' company,

Torquay United Holdings, inability to meet the next payment to purchase

the club from Bateson.
[/quote]It could be argued that this is a bad example of a successful takeover.  And in any event, Torquay probably cost no more than a million, 2 million tops.  You can''t really compare that level of investment with the kind needed to do the same for Norwich - there are a lot more people with a couple of million to burn than with 50-70 million to burn.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

[quote user="blahblahblah"][quote]torquay, a team at the arse end of England, who have spent the past 85 years flitting between the bottom 2 divisions and are now in the conference... were bought out in the Summer and all their debts were wiped out by the new owners who said they were an attractive proposition.[/quote]

Torquay''s takeover makes for interesting reading according to wiki, backed up with references from BBC Sport...

[quote]In October 2006, Bateson stepped down as chairman to be replaced by Chris Roberts, who soon afterwards sacked Atkins,[2] replacing him with former Czech international Luboš Kubík.[3] Despite his credentials as a player, there was some concern raised that Kubik had no real history as a coach, and he did little to endear himself to fans by bringing in Richard Hancox as coach. Torquay''s dire form continued, and the club crashed to the bottom of the table. Kubik eventually quit on February 5, and Colin Lee was soon after appointed as the new director of football.[4] Keith Curle was appointed as Head Coach on February 7, 2007. Roberts resigned amid growing pressure from supporters and the board of directors, all of whom were unhappy with his conduct as chairman, on February 21, 2007.[5] Local hotel owner Keith Richardson was announced as the new chairman the following day. [6] However, on March 7, 2007 former chairman Mike Bateson was reappointed as chairman, the move following Chris Roberts'' company, Torquay United Holdings, inability to meet the next payment to purchase the club from Bateson.[/quote]

It could be argued that this is a bad example of a successful takeover.  And in any event, Torquay probably cost no more than a million, 2 million tops.  You can''t really compare that level of investment with the kind needed to do the same for Norwich - there are a lot more people with a couple of million to burn than with 50-70 million to burn.
[/quote]

Now what did you have to go and spoil that one for!

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
i agree that if torquay can find invstment then why cant we, in my opinion delia is holding out, the longer she can turn down investers the hope is there that at least one is gonna come back with a improved offer, which i think is having a detrimental effect on the club, i mean its obvious she lacks the financial power to support the club completely, the problem is that every single bit of profit made is going into clearing the debt which limits the funding of the team, personally i think short term expenses which lead to a financial gain are well and truely acceptable, spending 15million to bolster the team is a huge expense but when weighed up against the gains of premeiership football its a risk that is required to be taken, i perosnally would like to see a investor purchase delias shares and clear the debt, thn simple all income will cover the daily running costs of the club and provide enough funds to sucessfully fund the team, NCFC is a football club but it is also a business, and every business has to be run in a proper way, but i feel the club isnt, ie minimised expenditure maximum income, at the moment expenditure seems to be on a par with income, and its having a detrimental effect on the club, come on andy and sharon, spend 20mill and clear our debt, its hardly a huge amount for you, and think th money you save on the debt repaymanets can go to boosting the team and getting us back to the big money making prem, its a win win situation for you, 20mill outlay for possible season after season of 50mill income, you say ure fans well do something that we all know you can afford to do and that a lto fo us fans cant do and thats invest, please

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We are still in the "Championship"...just one step away from the big money bounty of the "Premiership"....We are a good investment even with the current debt.....but Smith and Co. are not prepared to let go for the good of the club.......being more interested in their own affairs and prosperity.

Here lies the fundamental issue preventing progress.... and as a business man for many years I can assure that no-one with any business nous what-so-ever would touch the club right now. It''s a no brainer in the extreme to hand a large (or any) sum of money over to someone with a controlling interest....as you then have no say in what ultimately happens to it and the wiseness in which it is used.

She will start sweating soon enough the way things are....and only then will the stalkers move in.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
as a business man cluck you mustve had a bit of sucess, what do you think it would take to make delia sell, and do you think that purely getting rid of delia will solve the problem, i mean ive had enough of this board not doing whats best for the club, yes i must admit they have been very sucessfullat developing the infrastructure for the club, but that has obviously come at price to the team, they have literally past there sell by date, but i just feel that a cpmplete board room change is need aswell, how do you feel is the best way forward for the club,

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

[quote user="MatthewSaward"]as a business man cluck you mustve had a bit of sucess, what do you think it would take to make delia sell, and do you think that purely getting rid of delia will solve the problem, i mean ive had enough of this board not doing whats best for the club, yes i must admit they have been very sucessfullat developing the infrastructure for the club, but that has obviously come at price to the team, they have literally past there sell by date, but i just feel that a cpmplete board room change is need aswell,

how do you feel is the best way forward for the club,
[/quote]

No sensible owner of a company will watch their investment fizzle away to nothing....so sooner or later (probably after a relegation) they will get the sweats and look for a discreet way out.  I feared long ago that Smith would leave in tears by hanging on too long....and this for me is now almost inevitable. Just as Chase is reviled for his part in our descent to obscurity....so too will Smith, especially if we suffer relegation.

How to get rid of the Board? Only time and media damage to the Delia Smith public image can bring this about....A genuinely united public protest would probably bring it forward...along with a boycott of home games, but I fear few of us have the stomach for that after Worthington''s lynching....plus there are the many loyal Deliarites for whom the modern club is Delia Smith.

I honestly feel it will take a drop to League One and a total restructure to make any difference. A new manager may arrest the slide for a while....but given the tools to use he will be on a loser from day one. We need to throw off the "Delia Smith" tag once and for all and get back to basics. Slash the season ticket scam to attract the more vocal and grass root supporter....and blood good youngsters as of old through our system. If they are no good...get rid and bring in another youngster looking for success.

In all a radical overhaul of our values as a club....and a return to attractive football as our core ethic. Install an experienced and pro-active scouting network concentrating on youth....and bring in a high profile club captain on big money to demand effort on the pitch.....and support the managers'' ambitions.

To be frank I would never have let it get to this state in the first place....and have in the past always had to start from square one when rebuilding a failing concern.  I really can''t see any other way of doing it.......

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A question: is there anything to stop any new "investors", with a controlling interest in the club, from asset stripping? Selling Carrow road for housing & relocating on a lease 20 miles away, for example, then syphoning the money off. Is there anything in the club''s constitution to prevent this?

Also, income = expenditure seems eminently reasonable to me; I think people tend to run their personal finances this way.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote]Now what did you have to go and spoil that one for![/quote]Sorry nutty, it just really riles me when people come up with poorly researched, highly inaccurate pub facts and try to work them into an argument against people who are just trying to do their best.  It took me 30 seconds to get this info, why couldn''t jas bother ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="ron obvious"]

A question: is there anything to stop any new "investors", with a controlling interest in the club, from asset stripping? Selling Carrow road for housing & relocating on a lease 20 miles away, for example, then syphoning the money off. Is there anything in the club''s constitution to prevent this?

Also, income = expenditure seems eminently reasonable to me; I think people tend to run their personal finances this way.

[/quote]

Yes. 30,000 livid supporters. It`s been tried at several clubs (Wrexham, Cambridge) and has never succeeded because supporters would NEVER allow their club to be destroyed in such an obvious way.

Unfortunately we are proving that supporters are prepared to watch their club being slowly and insidiously destroyed, as long as those at the top are "nice" and capable of producing the right spin to pull the wool over people eyes.

Income=expenditure is fine, but it depends on what the income is spent on doesn`t it? £28.5million in fixed asset expenditure in the last 5 financial years says it all.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="Mr.Carrow"][quote user="ron obvious"]

A question: is there anything to stop any new "investors", with a controlling interest in the club, from asset stripping? Selling Carrow road for housing & relocating on a lease 20 miles away, for example, then syphoning the money off. Is there anything in the club''s constitution to prevent this?

Also, income = expenditure seems eminently reasonable to me; I think people tend to run their personal finances this way.

[/quote]

Yes. 30,000 livid supporters. It`s been tried at several clubs (Wrexham, Cambridge) and has never succeeded because supporters would NEVER allow their club to be destroyed in such an obvious way.

Unfortunately we are proving that supporters are prepared to watch their club being slowly and insidiously destroyed, as long as those at the top are "nice" and capable of producing the right spin to pull the wool over people eyes.

Income=expenditure is fine, but it depends on what the income is spent on doesn`t it? £28.5million in fixed asset expenditure in the last 5 financial years says it all.

[/quote]

I agree that our supporters would unite and not allow our club to be destroyed like that. I am also sure that our current majority shareholders wouldn''t sell to anyone whose intention was to asset strip in such a way.

I also agree with your point about income = expenditure. Many of us believe that since promotion in 2004 the problem has been the balance of that expenditure between the football team and off the pitch projects. Whilst recognising the neccessity of investing in alternative revenue streams we feel that the board hasn''t got the balance right and this is reflected in the quality of our football team at present.

But the suggestion, in the middle paragragh of your post, that the board are being treacherous, deceptive or dishonest in destroying our club just helps to stir up a hate campaign against people who I still believe do have the best interests of the club at heart.

Am I the only one left who still believes we are all on the same side.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
after reading some of the posts on this site i get the impression that theres a mixed bag of feelings towards the board and delia, after watching my bloved club go down the pan over the last 3 years i must say i am extremely concerned with the way the club has been run, i mean weve had 2 chances to get back into the premiership with parachute payments and weve failed becasue for soem reason those payments werent invested into the squad, now answers to be found why the board havent invsted intothe team to th extent of what would be best to get the club back to the prem, also more answers needed for the reason why we are so poor at finding the investors required to take the club forward, i mean delias run her time, sh no longer can do any good for the club and needs to move over and allow a breath of fresh air to enter the club, i must admit i hav to agree with smudger, cluck and arther whittle on the matter of the problems within the club and it all starts with delia, and her boards policy, i mean theres nothing wrong with buying a chap player then selling thm for a profit, but when you sell a player and dont buy a cheap quality player then thats a problem, so how is the problem of getting delia to sell her shars and getting a new investor going to be solved, any ideas

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="nutty nigel"][quote user="Mr.Carrow"][quote user="ron obvious"]

A question: is there anything to stop any new "investors", with a controlling interest in the club, from asset stripping? Selling Carrow road for housing & relocating on a lease 20 miles away, for example, then syphoning the money off. Is there anything in the club''s constitution to prevent this?

Also, income = expenditure seems eminently reasonable to me; I think people tend to run their personal finances this way.

[/quote]

Yes. 30,000 livid supporters. It`s been tried at several clubs (Wrexham, Cambridge) and has never succeeded because supporters would NEVER allow their club to be destroyed in such an obvious way.

Unfortunately we are proving that supporters are prepared to watch their club being slowly and insidiously destroyed, as long as those at the top are "nice" and capable of producing the right spin to pull the wool over people eyes.

Income=expenditure is fine, but it depends on what the income is spent on doesn`t it? £28.5million in fixed asset expenditure in the last 5 financial years says it all.

[/quote]

I agree that our supporters would unite and not allow our club to be destroyed like that. I am also sure that our current majority shareholders wouldn''t sell to anyone whose intention was to asset strip in such a way.

I also agree with your point about income = expenditure. Many of us believe that since promotion in 2004 the problem has been the balance of that expenditure between the football team and off the pitch projects. Whilst recognising the neccessity of investing in alternative revenue streams we feel that the board hasn''t got the balance right and this is reflected in the quality of our football team at present.

But the suggestion, in the middle paragragh of your post, that the board are being treacherous, deceptive or dishonest in destroying our club just helps to stir up a hate campaign against people who I still believe do have the best interests of the club at heart.

Am I the only one left who still believes we are all on the same side.

 

[/quote]

Nutty, i have been watching the England game today with an ex-NCISA commitee member who politely expressed his concerns at the last AGM and suggested a change at boardroom level. He was roundly boo`d and told by MWJ that he "obviously didn`t care" about NCFC. He will be going again tomorrow and, given the chance, will speak out again. He is understandably nervous about it and said that "the thing is whatever i say i will be boo`d and told i am not a true supporter and should shut up and get behind the team". I`m sure you can`t have missed the reports of a press conference with Doncaster where he dismissed every difficult question as "unhelpful" (see Aitken`s and Cuffley`s articles). The people at the top of our club somehow see themselves as above criticism and if this arrogance continues then yes, i believe there will be a hate campaign.

Yes, i believe our board are deceptive and dishonest. Look at the profit made on transfers when we have been told since relegation that it is all re-invested in the team. Also dig up my "Wages-don`t be mislead" thread and see what you think. Of course, this does not mean that they don`t think they are doing the best thing for the club. They are non-Norfolk business people and, in purely business terms, NCFC have done fantastically well in the last few years. Doncaster`s stance on football finance seems to me to verge on the paranoid and i honestly think our board have been anticipating a meltdown, with clubs going to the wall and solid, profit-making ones like City in the best position to take advantage. Once again, their judgement has been totally wrong.

If you feel that the board have got it wrong since promotion-and reading Skippers comments it doesn`t look like much is going to change- and the "prudence with extravagence off the pitch" approach is failing, how do you suggest passionate supporters go about changing it?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

[quote user="MatthewSaward"]after reading some of the posts on this site i get the impression that theres a mixed bag of feelings towards the board and delia, after watching my bloved club go down the pan over the last 3 years i must say i am extremely concerned with the way the club has been run, i mean weve had 2 chances to get back into the premiership with parachute payments and weve failed becasue for soem reason those payments werent invested into the squad, now answers to be found why the board havent invsted intothe team to th extent of what would be best to get the club back to the prem, also more answers needed for the reason why we are so poor at finding the investors required to take the club forward, i mean delias run her time, sh no longer can do any good for the club and needs to move over and allow a breath of fresh air to enter the club,

i must admit i hav to agree with smudger, cluck and arther whittle on the matter of the problems within the club and it all starts with delia, and her boards policy, i mean theres nothing wrong with buying a chap player then selling thm for a profit, but when you sell a player and dont buy a cheap quality player then thats a problem,

so how is the problem of getting delia to sell her shars and getting a new investor going to be solved, any ideas
[/quote]

Can''t be done...and if she wanted to "legally" run the club into the ground....she could. In a nutshell we''re stumped as to a "removal" policy...and what makes it worse is that after the Chase debacle we all (including Smith) vowed that no-one should ever again have a controlling interest in the club.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

[quote user="Mr.Carrow"][quote user="nutty nigel"][quote user="Mr.Carrow"][quote user="ron obvious"]

A question: is there anything to stop any new "investors", with a controlling interest in the club, from asset stripping? Selling Carrow road for housing & relocating on a lease 20 miles away, for example, then syphoning the money off. Is there anything in the club''s constitution to prevent this?

Also, income = expenditure seems eminently reasonable to me; I think people tend to run their personal finances this way.

[/quote]

Yes. 30,000 livid supporters. It`s been tried at several clubs (Wrexham, Cambridge) and has never succeeded because supporters would NEVER allow their club to be destroyed in such an obvious way.

Unfortunately we are proving that supporters are prepared to watch their club being slowly and insidiously destroyed, as long as those at the top are "nice" and capable of producing the right spin to pull the wool over people eyes.

Income=expenditure is fine, but it depends on what the income is spent on doesn`t it? £28.5million in fixed asset expenditure in the last 5 financial years says it all.

[/quote]

I agree that our supporters would unite and not allow our club to be destroyed like that. I am also sure that our current majority shareholders wouldn''t sell to anyone whose intention was to asset strip in such a way.

I also agree with your point about income = expenditure. Many of us believe that since promotion in 2004 the problem has been the balance of that expenditure between the football team and off the pitch projects. Whilst recognising the neccessity of investing in alternative revenue streams we feel that the board hasn''t got the balance right and this is reflected in the quality of our football team at present.

But the suggestion, in the middle paragragh of your post, that the board are being treacherous, deceptive or dishonest in destroying our club just helps to stir up a hate campaign against people who I still believe do have the best interests of the club at heart.

Am I the only one left who still believes we are all on the same side.

 

[/quote]

Nutty, i have been watching the England game today with an ex-NCISA commitee member who politely expressed his concerns at the last AGM and suggested a change at boardroom level. He was roundly boo`d and told by MWJ that he "obviously didn`t care" about NCFC. He will be going again tomorrow and, given the chance, will speak out again. He is understandably nervous about it and said that "the thing is whatever i say i will be boo`d and told i am not a true supporter and should shut up and get behind the team". I`m sure you can`t have missed the reports of a press conference with Doncaster where he dismissed every difficult question as "unhelpful" (see Aitken`s and Cuffley`s articles). The people at the top of our club somehow see themselves as above criticism and if this arrogance continues then yes, i believe there will be a hate campaign.

Yes, i believe our board are deceptive and dishonest. Look at the profit made on transfers when we have been told since relegation that it is all re-invested in the team. Also dig up my "Wages-don`t be mislead" thread and see what you think. Of course, this does not mean that they don`t think they are doing the best thing for the club. They are non-Norfolk business people and, in purely business terms, NCFC have done fantastically well in the last few years. Doncaster`s stance on football finance seems to me to verge on the paranoid and i honestly think our board have been anticipating a meltdown, with clubs going to the wall and solid, profit-making ones like City in the best position to take advantage. Once again, their judgement has been totally wrong.

If you feel that the board have got it wrong since promotion-and reading Skippers comments it doesn`t look like much is going to change- and the "prudence with extravagence off the pitch" approach is failing, how do you suggest passionate supporters go about changing it?

[/quote] Wonderful post Mr Carrow and I know the person to whom you are referring. Such a dedicated supporter and MWJ should be ashamed of himself. If your friend and ex NCISA member speaks up tonight and is booed, I will stand up and say I agree with him, and it''s the likes of MWJ who are driving the true supporter away or underground. The board, with this attitude towards criticism and "unhelpful" questions or the like are not helping anyone, themselves, the club and certainly NOT representing the supporters, which I assume the board are there to do. I am not an accountant and on reading this year''s accounts can''t make head nor tail of it all, but what I do know about is how to support a football club (and I have been told similar by the board in the past - at a forum like your friend) and Doncaster, Munby and the like are NOT going to get rid of me. So, I might not be able to question them about where the money is going (as we all know it is there) - but I can stand up and tell them they are wrong to have a go at fans who want to question their values. Ten years time, they won''t be here, hold on to that fact. I do.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="ron obvious"]

 

Also, income = expenditure seems eminently reasonable to me; I think people tend to run their personal finances this way.

[/quote]

The trouble is our income doesn''t equal expenditure.

We are 18 million in debt,with much off that going to off field investments that will take many years to break even. The much vaunted 500k raised from the combined catering operation won''t even service the interest on that sort of debt.

Why is it we can afford 1.3 million for office equiptment this year but only 200k for a target man.

Stuff "Prudence With Ambition" our new slogan should be "Bigger Paperclips For A Better Tomorrow"

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Mr Carrow - I can''t comment on what may have happened at last years AGM because I wasn''t there. Your friend may have been booed but his suggestion of a change at boardroom level still happened. Change is happening at boardroom level and the board at this years AGM is different so your friend shouldn''t automatically expect the same response. I take it that it was other shareholders booing him? Or board members? I always speak as I find and I have met board members on countless occasions all over the country sometimes in the most trying of circumstances and always found them civil even if I haven''t always agreed with their opinion.

I personally think that a hate campaign against the board would not be a good thing. But then I didn''t agree with the hate campaign against Worthy either. Do you know that people still believe some of the rubbish made up against him in his last two years here. This was one of the reasons I asked the history question on the other thread and even though it was less than four years ago people had forgotten and believed his teams never won away. You mention the article by Adam Aiken and I agreed with much of it but why did he have to mention that Walker was sacked after two 5-0 wins? Its stirring things to put it mildly. Does nobody remember any other results from the two seasons Walker was in charge? Now I know that football is about the here and now and not history, and I know that a manager probably in only good for 3/4 years and a board for 10. It was time for Worthy to go and its probably time for this Board to go now. But do we really want to drive them out with a hate campaign and so not recognise anything they have achieved in their time here.

After their time is up the club can still benefit from the Delia connection. So they are not Norfolk people, but some posters make them out to be Ipswich fans which again is just an attempt to stir up a hate campaign. Are all the posters on here Norfolk people? How many members of the Hall Of Fame are Norfolk born and bred? How many journalists who write about our great club are Norfolk born and bred? Why not stick to the investment issue. Surely that’s what most people agree with? Concentrate on the case for lack of investment in the football team since 2004. Try and make the board accountable for this and hope that the new board members understand how most fans feel.

If the board are forced out there is no guarantee that the replacement will be better. As much as I wanted him to succeed nobody can convince me that Peter Grant was better than Nigel Worthington. And the other thing to consider is that there is also no guarantee that a different board would have produced better results even with more money being invested in the team.

Hate campaigns divide the fans. They cause ill feeling between the fans. We should take more care of our fans, they will still be here when this board are long gone and the protests are long forgotten. And those that are free with the insults to other fans should be more careful. I have yet to meet a City fan who is a mindless moron as has been suggested on here a few times in the last few weeks. Do we really want to go back to the days of protest we only left behind just 12 months ago.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="nutty nigel"]

Mr Carrow - I can''t comment on what may have happened at last years AGM because I wasn''t there. Your friend may have been booed but his suggestion of a change at boardroom level still happened. Change is happening at boardroom level and the board at this years AGM is different so your friend shouldn''t automatically expect the same response. I take it that it was other shareholders booing him? Or board members? I always speak as I find and I have met board members on countless occasions all over the country sometimes in the most trying of circumstances and always found them civil even if I haven''t always agreed with their opinion.

I personally think that a hate campaign against the board would not be a good thing. But then I didn''t agree with the hate campaign against Worthy either. Do you know that people still believe some of the rubbish made up against him in his last two years here. This was one of the reasons I asked the history question on the other thread and even though it was less than four years ago people had forgotten and believed his teams never won away. You mention the article by Adam Aiken and I agreed with much of it but why did he have to mention that Walker was sacked after two 5-0 wins? Its stirring things to put it mildly. Does nobody remember any other results from the two seasons Walker was in charge? Now I know that football is about the here and now and not history, and I know that a manager probably in only good for 3/4 years and a board for 10. It was time for Worthy to go and its probably time for this Board to go now. But do we really want to drive them out with a hate campaign and so not recognise anything they have achieved in their time here.

After their time is up the club can still benefit from the Delia connection. So they are not Norfolk people, but some posters make them out to be Ipswich fans which again is just an attempt to stir up a hate campaign. Are all the posters on here Norfolk people? How many members of the Hall Of Fame are Norfolk born and bred? How many journalists who write about our great club are Norfolk born and bred? Why not stick to the investment issue. Surely that’s what most people agree with? Concentrate on the case for lack of investment in the football team since 2004. Try and make the board accountable for this and hope that the new board members understand how most fans feel.

If the board are forced out there is no guarantee that the replacement will be better. As much as I wanted him to succeed nobody can convince me that Peter Grant was better than Nigel Worthington. And the other thing to consider is that there is also no guarantee that a different board would have produced better results even with more money being invested in the team.

Hate campaigns divide the fans. They cause ill feeling between the fans. We should take more care of our fans, they will still be here when this board are long gone and the protests are long forgotten. And those that are free with the insults to other fans should be more careful. I have yet to meet a City fan who is a mindless moron as has been suggested on here a few times in the last few weeks. Do we really want to go back to the days of protest we only left behind just 12 months ago.

 

[/quote]

I fear your emphasis on the word "hate" is preventing you from understanding the issue. A large number of us (including me) do not "hate" anyone....but we do strongly object to what they are doing to something precious to us.

If you want to see it from the "personal" aspect...fine....but don''t let your personal emotions spill into where I am. I "hate" nobody....but I have the freedom of mind to hold a strong opinion. Should Smith and Co. walk away from NCFC tomorrow I wouldn''t give a toss.....indicating I have no emotional attachment either way. I fear however you would feel very differently....indicating the opposite.

Don''t label those of us who care enough to complain as "haters"....otherwise you will be labelled an "apologist".....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Delia''s investment demands are a tad frustrating at best, but, if they had applied when she came on board, she would have been rejected, as she was born in Woking and is a Surrey gal, born and bred!

Sorry Delia my dear, but you''re a furriner!

Ditto Mr Wynn Jones, a Welshman-he would have been turned away as well. Sorry, thanks for the offer of the money, but you are not from Norfolk ("never never never") so....

Indeed, so enamoured is Delia with Norfolk that she lives and records all her TV shows at her house in Suffolk!

Aided and abetted at the club by that well known man of....Devon....Neil Doncaster!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="Didnt Want To Be On The Web Team Anyway....Cluck "]

I fear your emphasis on the word "hate" is preventing you from understanding the issue. A large number of us (including me) do not "hate" anyone....but we do strongly object to what they are doing to something precious to us.

If you want to see it from the "personal" aspect...fine....but don''t let your personal emotions spill into where I am. I "hate" nobody....but I have the freedom of mind to hold a strong opinion. Should Smith and Co. walk away from NCFC tomorrow I wouldn''t give a toss.....indicating I have no emotional attachment either way. I fear however you would feel very differently....indicating the opposite.

Don''t label those of us who care enough to complain as "haters"....otherwise you will be labelled an "apologist".....

[/quote]

I was replying to a post from Mr Carrow who stated that he believed there would be a hate campaign. I haven''t labelled anybody anything and well you know it.

Plymouth away is next month cluck [;)]

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="nutty nigel"]

Mr Carrow - I can''t comment on what may have happened at last years AGM because I wasn''t there. Your friend may have been booed but his suggestion of a change at boardroom level still happened. Change is happening at boardroom level and the board at this years AGM is different so your friend shouldn''t automatically expect the same response. I take it that it was other shareholders booing him? Or board members? I always speak as I find and I have met board members on countless occasions all over the country sometimes in the most trying of circumstances and always found them civil even if I haven''t always agreed with their opinion.

I personally think that a hate campaign against the board would not be a good thing. But then I didn''t agree with the hate campaign against Worthy either. Do you know that people still believe some of the rubbish made up against him in his last two years here. This was one of the reasons I asked the history question on the other thread and even though it was less than four years ago people had forgotten and believed his teams never won away. You mention the article by Adam Aiken and I agreed with much of it but why did he have to mention that Walker was sacked after two 5-0 wins? Its stirring things to put it mildly. Does nobody remember any other results from the two seasons Walker was in charge? Now I know that football is about the here and now and not history, and I know that a manager probably in only good for 3/4 years and a board for 10. It was time for Worthy to go and its probably time for this Board to go now. But do we really want to drive them out with a hate campaign and so not recognise anything they have achieved in their time here.

After their time is up the club can still benefit from the Delia connection. So they are not Norfolk people, but some posters make them out to be Ipswich fans which again is just an attempt to stir up a hate campaign. Are all the posters on here Norfolk people? How many members of the Hall Of Fame are Norfolk born and bred? How many journalists who write about our great club are Norfolk born and bred? Why not stick to the investment issue. Surely that’s what most people agree with? Concentrate on the case for lack of investment in the football team since 2004. Try and make the board accountable for this and hope that the new board members understand how most fans feel.

If the board are forced out there is no guarantee that the replacement will be better. As much as I wanted him to succeed nobody can convince me that Peter Grant was better than Nigel Worthington. And the other thing to consider is that there is also no guarantee that a different board would have produced better results even with more money being invested in the team.

Hate campaigns divide the fans. They cause ill feeling between the fans. We should take more care of our fans, they will still be here when this board are long gone and the protests are long forgotten. And those that are free with the insults to other fans should be more careful. I have yet to meet a City fan who is a mindless moron as has been suggested on here a few times in the last few weeks. Do we really want to go back to the days of protest we only left behind just 12 months ago.

 

[/quote]

I don`t know about you Nutty but on reading Doncaster`s latest pearls of wisdom (his column and yesterdays Q&A) i had to go and make a cuppa to calm down. A £2.3million loan to buy land which has to be paid off next year (wonder where the money for that will come from?), a failure to grasp the concept that the board may be held accountable for the teams performance, and an assertion that Grant was simply unlucky with injuries. So long-term injuries to someone who has never played a competitive game for City, a player who failed to impress on loan last season, a couple of minor ones and suspensions are his excuse for the board picking the wrong man?

I really don`t know why you choose to focus on the possible consequence of the board`s policies (a hate campaign) rather than the policies themselves. Maybe the best way to avoid a hate campaign is for moderate supporters who have concerns with the way the club is going, such as yourself, to engage with the board and bring about a change in approach before things get to that stage? Although i fear that people have been ignoring the issues for so long it may be too late for that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="Mr.Carrow"]

I don`t know about you Nutty but on reading Doncaster`s latest pearls of wisdom (his column and yesterdays Q&A) i had to go and make a cuppa to calm down. A £2.3million loan to buy land which has to be paid off next year (wonder where the money for that will come from?), a failure to grasp the concept that the board may be held accountable for the teams performance, and an assertion that Grant was simply unlucky with injuries. So long-term injuries to someone who has never played a competitive game for City, a player who failed to impress on loan last season, a couple of minor ones and suspensions are his excuse for the board picking the wrong man?

I really don`t know why you choose to focus on the possible consequence of the board`s policies (a hate campaign) rather than the policies themselves. Maybe the best way to avoid a hate campaign is for moderate supporters who have concerns with the way the club is going, such as yourself, to engage with the board and bring about a change in approach before things get to that stage? Although i fear that people have been ignoring the issues for so long it may be too late for that.

[/quote]

Concentrate on what you are good at Mr Carrow! Grant was very unlucky with injuries. All clubs get injuries but he repeatedly lost players two by two. What you have to remember is that the player who has not played a competetive game and the player you say failed to impress last season (Fotheringham?) were the replacements for players we lost in the summer.

What makes you think I am a moderate supporter? Or are supporters now measured by how far they are prepared to go in criticising the club they support. You''d be the first to complain if I started to measure supporters by the amount of games they attended!

Did you engage the board last night to try and bring about change? Seems to me that whatever criteria we use to measure your support it turns out to be moderate.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

[quote user="Mr.Carrow"][quote user="ron obvious"]

A question: is there anything to stop any new "investors", with a controlling interest in the club, from asset stripping? Selling Carrow road for housing & relocating on a lease 20 miles away, for example, then syphoning the money off. Is there anything in the club''s constitution to prevent this?

Also, income = expenditure seems eminently reasonable to me; I think people tend to run their personal finances this way.

[/quote]

Yes. 30,000 livid supporters. It`s been tried at several clubs (Wrexham, Cambridge) and has never succeeded because supporters would NEVER allow their club to be destroyed in such an obvious way.

Unfortunately we are proving that supporters are prepared to watch their club being slowly and insidiously destroyed, as long as those at the top are "nice" and capable of producing the right spin to pull the wool over people eyes.

Income=expenditure is fine, but it depends on what the income is spent on doesn`t it? £28.5million in fixed asset expenditure in the last 5 financial years says it all.

[/quote]If we had spent that money on players instead we would most likely have been in the prem by now which would net us 40 million for every season we stayed there. The catering side brings in 500k per year, it will take 80 years for the catering to make what we would get for being in the prem for just 1 season, sobering thought. I''t is obviously a good thing to have other incomes but you do wonder what the outcome would have been if more of the funds that were used for restuarants etc were directed into the managers budget.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="nutty nigel"][quote user="Mr.Carrow"]

I don`t know about you Nutty but on reading Doncaster`s latest pearls of wisdom (his column and yesterdays Q&A) i had to go and make a cuppa to calm down. A £2.3million loan to buy land which has to be paid off next year (wonder where the money for that will come from?), a failure to grasp the concept that the board may be held accountable for the teams performance, and an assertion that Grant was simply unlucky with injuries. So long-term injuries to someone who has never played a competitive game for City, a player who failed to impress on loan last season, a couple of minor ones and suspensions are his excuse for the board picking the wrong man?

I really don`t know why you choose to focus on the possible consequence of the board`s policies (a hate campaign) rather than the policies themselves. Maybe the best way to avoid a hate campaign is for moderate supporters who have concerns with the way the club is going, such as yourself, to engage with the board and bring about a change in approach before things get to that stage? Although i fear that people have been ignoring the issues for so long it may be too late for that.

[/quote]

Concentrate on what you are good at Mr Carrow! Grant was very unlucky with injuries. All clubs get injuries but he repeatedly lost players two by two. What you have to remember is that the player who has not played a competetive game and the player you say failed to impress last season (Fotheringham?) were the replacements for players we lost in the summer.

What makes you think I am a moderate supporter? Or are supporters now measured by how far they are prepared to go in criticising the club they support. You''d be the first to complain if I started to measure supporters by the amount of games they attended!

Did you engage the board last night to try and bring about change? Seems to me that whatever criteria we use to measure your support it turns out to be moderate.

 

[/quote]

For goodness sake Nutty, get real for a change. The injuries we have suffered this season have been no more than par for the course in a very physical league and the longer-term ones have not affected first team regulars. To use that as an excuse really is scraping the barrel.

If you measure support by how closely you follow the lead lemming over the cliff then i would say you are twice the supporter i am. But as you still can`t seem to grasp the simple concept that supporting the club is very different to blindly supporting those currently in charge who are failing it, i think that debating with you is going nowhere.

Had i attended last night i probably would have been sacked so no, i didn`t engage the board. I should, however, be in the position to take the evening off if the November thing happens.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="Mr.Carrow"]

For goodness sake Nutty, get real for a change. The injuries we have suffered this season have been no more than par for the course in a very physical league and the longer-term ones have not affected first team regulars. To use that as an excuse really is scraping the barrel.

If you measure support by how closely you follow the lead lemming over the cliff then i would say you are twice the supporter i am. But as you still can`t seem to grasp the simple concept that supporting the club is very different to blindly supporting those currently in charge who are failing it, i think that debating with you is going nowhere.

Had i attended last night i probably would have been sacked so no, i didn`t engage the board. I should, however, be in the position to take the evening off if the November thing happens.

[/quote]

Overall and Turner felt the AGM had been an invigorating experience.

“I liked the honesty of the questions - and I like the transparency of the club. And I think that''s one of the things that attracted us to it,” said the Central Trust chief.

http://norwichcity.myfootballwriter.com/full_article.asp?i=1805&w=25&a=0&part=1

Now I have less of an understanding of the accounts than you Mr Carrow so I have to make a decision about which lemmings I would like to follow straight off the cliff. Where do I turn? Do I follow you, Mystic and Gazza or do I follow a guy who has obviously looked closely into the other lemmings before investing 2m of his own money.

So I ask you, Gazza and Mystic this question - If you had the money Turner has, would you invest 2m into the club and become a supportive part of the current board? I''m guessing the answer is no. So... it then begs another question - Why would succesful business people like the Turners invest 2m and become a supportive part of the current board?

Try debating without resorting to lemmings or apologists jibes. That is what makes debates pointless.


 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="nutty nigel"][quote user="Mr.Carrow"]

For goodness sake Nutty, get real for a change. The injuries we have suffered this season have been no more than par for the course in a very physical league and the longer-term ones have not affected first team regulars. To use that as an excuse really is scraping the barrel.

If you measure support by how closely you follow the lead lemming over the cliff then i would say you are twice the supporter i am. But as you still can`t seem to grasp the simple concept that supporting the club is very different to blindly supporting those currently in charge who are failing it, i think that debating with you is going nowhere.

Had i attended last night i probably would have been sacked so no, i didn`t engage the board. I should, however, be in the position to take the evening off if the November thing happens.

[/quote]

Overall and Turner felt the AGM had been an invigorating experience.

“I liked the honesty of the questions - and I like the transparency of the club. And I think that''s one of the things that attracted us to it,” said the Central Trust chief.

http://norwichcity.myfootballwriter.com/full_article.asp?i=1805&w=25&a=0&part=1

Now I have less of an understanding of the accounts than you Mr Carrow so I have to make a decision about which lemmings I would like to follow straight off the cliff. Where do I turn? Do I follow you, Mystic and Gazza or do I follow a guy who has obviously looked closely into the other lemmings before investing 2m of his own money.

So I ask you, Gazza and Mystic this question - If you had the money Turner has, would you invest 2m into the club and become a supportive part of the current board? I''m guessing the answer is no. So... it then begs another question - Why would succesful business people like the Turners invest 2m and become a supportive part of the current board?

Try debating without resorting to lemmings or apologists jibes. That is what makes debates pointless.

 [/quote]

Assuming that they aren''t a front for anyone else, I haven''t the slightest idea nutty.  What do you think?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="nutty nigel"][quote user="Mr.Carrow"]

For goodness sake Nutty, get real for a change. The injuries we have suffered this season have been no more than par for the course in a very physical league and the longer-term ones have not affected first team regulars. To use that as an excuse really is scraping the barrel.

If you measure support by how closely you follow the lead lemming over the cliff then i would say you are twice the supporter i am. But as you still can`t seem to grasp the simple concept that supporting the club is very different to blindly supporting those currently in charge who are failing it, i think that debating with you is going nowhere.

Had i attended last night i probably would have been sacked so no, i didn`t engage the board. I should, however, be in the position to take the evening off if the November thing happens.

[/quote]

Overall and Turner felt the AGM had been an invigorating experience.

“I liked the honesty of the questions - and I like the transparency of the club. And I think that''s one of the things that attracted us to it,” said the Central Trust chief.

http://norwichcity.myfootballwriter.com/full_article.asp?i=1805&w=25&a=0&part=1

Now I have less of an understanding of the accounts than you Mr Carrow so I have to make a decision about which lemmings I would like to follow straight off the cliff. Where do I turn? Do I follow you, Mystic and Gazza or do I follow a guy who has obviously looked closely into the other lemmings before investing 2m of his own money.

So I ask you, Gazza and Mystic this question - If you had the money Turner has, would you invest 2m into the club and become a supportive part of the current board? I''m guessing the answer is no. So... it then begs another question - Why would succesful business people like the Turners invest 2m and become a supportive part of the current board?

Try debating without resorting to lemmings or apologists jibes. That is what makes debates pointless.


 

[/quote]

What I find extreme and certainly laughable, is that the some fans think that the business folk in ''current'' control of this club......are just there for the ''love'' of the club.

Business folk first, then whatever toy tickles their fancy.......

Jack Walker and a few ''others'' are the exception.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="nutty nigel"][quote user="Mr.Carrow"]

For goodness sake Nutty, get real for a change. The injuries we have suffered this season have been no more than par for the course in a very physical league and the longer-term ones have not affected first team regulars. To use that as an excuse really is scraping the barrel.

If you measure support by how closely you follow the lead lemming over the cliff then i would say you are twice the supporter i am. But as you still can`t seem to grasp the simple concept that supporting the club is very different to blindly supporting those currently in charge who are failing it, i think that debating with you is going nowhere.

Had i attended last night i probably would have been sacked so no, i didn`t engage the board. I should, however, be in the position to take the evening off if the November thing happens.

[/quote]

Overall and Turner felt the AGM had been an invigorating experience.

“I liked the honesty of the questions - and I like the transparency of the club. And I think that''s one of the things that attracted us to it,” said the Central Trust chief.

http://norwichcity.myfootballwriter.com/full_article.asp?i=1805&w=25&a=0&part=1

Now I have less of an understanding of the accounts than you Mr Carrow so I have to make a decision about which lemmings I would like to follow straight off the cliff. Where do I turn? Do I follow you, Mystic and Gazza or do I follow a guy who has obviously looked closely into the other lemmings before investing 2m of his own money.

So I ask you, Gazza and Mystic this question - If you had the money Turner has, would you invest 2m into the club and become a supportive part of the current board? I''m guessing the answer is no. So... it then begs another question - Why would succesful business people like the Turners invest 2m and become a supportive part of the current board?

Try debating without resorting to lemmings or apologists jibes. That is what makes debates pointless.


 

[/quote]

Have a look at your previous reply if you want to see who brought the level of debate down. God knows why you seemed to take offence at being called "moderate" anyway-i would say me and Mystic are moderate compared to Cluck and Smudger.

The thing is Nutty i think that in a year, two years, or five years time if we are still spiralling downwards under the current incumbants you will still be clinging to whatever the positive spin of the time is in order to deflect attention from where the buck ultimately has to stop. You seem to put alot more weight on words and personalities, i try to concentrate on facts, action and consequences. What exactly is the Turner`s great plan for success? Do you know? If not, how can you be impressed by it?

As far as the business aspect goes, as i have said before, the club have been very successful-£12million profit in three years. But a football club isn`t a normal business is it? Well i think that those at the top think that it is. Of course they are now starting to get a bit shaky as they realise that their de-investment of the football team will ultimately lead to declining income in most of the off-pitch stuff they have been so happy to pump money into-catering, merchandise, ticket sales etc. Just a shame that they didn`t realise all this when all that money went to their heads three years ago. And a shame that so many people couldn`t think for themselves and blindly backed whatever they did.

They took a massive gamble and with large short-term debts still to be paid off it could end in disaster. And the really sad thing is it wasn`t even a gamble taken where it might have made a real difference-on the pitch.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×