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Sobering Facts

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In the Annual Report (p.5) Neil Doncaster states:

"Indeed, it is a sobering fact that in 2005/6 the 24 Championship clubs ran up average combined losses before tax of just over £2m per club, even after player sales had been taken into account." 

In 2005/6 Norwich City ran up a profit before tax of £3,064,814, which was almost the same as the profit from the sale of players (£3,046,666).  Now that''s what I call a sobering fact.  It indicates we were almost certainly the most profitable club in the division, by some margin.  No one thinks it''s desirable to make a loss, but it''s evidence if any were needed that the club has got its priorities seriously wrong. 

 

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From the overview of Deloittes'' Annual Review... (link for those who haven''t yet seen it)
  • Championship clubs'' pre-tax losses improved from 65m to 47m and three of the overall top ten clubs ranked by pre-tax profits were Championship clubs in 05/06 (Cardiff City, Leicester City, and Norwich City.)
To be fair to the club, they were going to sign David Cotterill, and his signing would have taken up most of that pre-tax profit.  I blame Wigan for that.

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Thanks for the Deloitte link. Interestingly, it say that that average TOTAL wages were 72% of revenue not that PLAYER wages were 72% of revenue as has been indicated on other threads to suggest that we are investing substantially less in players than other clubs. It also intersting that there is less correlation between player wages and league position in the championship than in the premiership.

It terms of profits in that year, ideally you would want the club to break even each year but the board have player contracts beyond one year and therefore any sensible board would have to look at the revenue and costs beyond the current year.

I am not saying that mistakes have not been made but that happens all the time in every business. However, some of the critiscm on here just does not stand up to scrutiny. I think we are understandably disappointed, especially since promotion increased expections but unfortunately it is easier to criticise than to find a solution.

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[quote user="T"]

Thanks for the Deloitte link. Interestingly, it say that that average TOTAL wages were 72% of revenue not that PLAYER wages were 72% of revenue as has been indicated on other threads to suggest that we are investing substantially less in players than other clubs. It also intersting that there is less correlation between player wages and league position in the championship than in the premiership.

[/quote]

Correct T.  Our total wages last season were 53.3% of turnover.

 

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[quote]. Interestingly, it say that that average TOTAL wages were 72% of

revenue not that PLAYER wages were 72% of revenue as has been indicated

on other threads to suggest that we are investing substantially less in

players than other clubs. It also intersting that there is less

correlation between player wages and league position in the

championship than in the premiership.[/quote]Oops, yes it does - my mistake, the same mistake that Neil D made in his report in the accounts oddly enough.  We still spent 1.6 million less on player wages last season than the average for this league though.  Do you envisage a time when the cashflow from our growing businesses will enable us to pay average player wages for this division, T ?  Or maybe even compensate for the lack of parachute payments ?

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Some light to go with the shade that I have brought from the same report :
  • It may surprise some people that over the past decade the top 92 professional clubs have each year, on average, spent £20m more on stadium investment than they have on net transfer fees
  • Premier League clubs have spent over 15% of revenue generated since 92/93 on improving their facilities, Football League clubs have spent over 12%.  These are impressive amounts and again illustrate that stadium investment, and the on-going financial benefits it can deliver, is a significant element of a successful football business strategy.
It seems that a lot of clubs are investing more in facilities than players.I couldn''t find the bit where it mentions the correlation between performance and wages though.

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[quote user="mystic megson"]

In the Annual Report (p.5) Neil Doncaster states:

"Indeed, it is a sobering fact that in 2005/6 the 24 Championship clubs ran up average combined losses before tax of just over £2m per club, even after player sales had been taken into account." 

In 2005/6 Norwich City ran up a profit before tax of £3,064,814, which was almost the same as the profit from the sale of players (£3,046,666).  Now that''s what I call a sobering fact.  It indicates we were almost certainly the most profitable club in the division, by some margin.  No one thinks it''s desirable to make a loss, but it''s evidence if any were needed that the club has got its priorities seriously wrong. 

 

[/quote]

The priorities are wrong because the club made a profit!!! Are you for real....surely not.....

I spent 5 minutes trying to think up a sarcastic reply to this post but I couldn''t.  The comment is so incredibly stupid I just cant get my head around it.  Priorities wrong cause the club made a profit.....Unbelievable

There you go Doncaster, you can never please every fan because we have got idiots like this...

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[quote user="jimmy500"][quote user="mystic megson"]

In the Annual Report (p.5) Neil Doncaster states:

"Indeed, it is a sobering fact that in 2005/6 the 24 Championship clubs ran up average combined losses before tax of just over £2m per club, even after player sales had been taken into account." 

In 2005/6 Norwich City ran up a profit before tax of £3,064,814, which was almost the same as the profit from the sale of players (£3,046,666).  Now that''s what I call a sobering fact.  It indicates we were almost certainly the most profitable club in the division, by some margin.  No one thinks it''s desirable to make a loss, but it''s evidence if any were needed that the club has got its priorities seriously wrong. 

 

[/quote]

The priorities are wrong because the club made a profit!!! Are you for real....surely not.....

I spent 5 minutes trying to think up a sarcastic reply to this post but I couldn''t.  The comment is so incredibly stupid I just cant get my head around it.  Priorities wrong cause the club made a profit.....Unbelievable

There you go Doncaster, you can never please every fan because we have got idiots like this...

[/quote]

And where has three successive years of profits got the club exactly? Even whilst raking in two £7.1million parachute payments the club still made millions in profit on players (despite our oh-so-honest board telling us it`s all pumped back into the team) and now we are apparently faced with a bleak financial future (although the board can afford to borrow more to pay for new offices) and laughably, may have to sell our playing "assets" to survive.

To quote R.Munby from the latest annual report "Essentially we are a not-for-profit organisation". Why the obsession with making a profit a profit at the expense of the team then? The only people who really benefit as i see it are the treasury-to whom we have needlessly given away £2.5million in tax over that period.

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[quote user="jimmy500"]

The priorities are wrong because the club made a profit!!! Are you for real....surely not.....

I spent 5 minutes trying to think up a sarcastic reply to this post but I couldn''t.  The comment is so incredibly stupid I just cant get my head around it.  Priorities wrong cause the club made a profit.....Unbelievable

There you go Doncaster, you can never please every fan because we have got idiots like this...

[/quote]

Oooh so we can take our profit and go into the profity play-offs where we have a one off game of monopoly with all the other teams who have made a profit. Doncaster can move our piece round the board, let''s give him the boot. The winner gets to take the place of the Premiership team who made the least profit last year. Then we will see once and for all how our prudent and profity board have masterminded our rise back to the top.

Sarcastic like that you mean.

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[quote user="Mr.Carrow"][quote user="jimmy500"][quote user="mystic megson"]

In the Annual Report (p.5) Neil Doncaster states:

"Indeed, it is a sobering fact that in 2005/6 the 24 Championship clubs ran up average combined losses before tax of just over £2m per club, even after player sales had been taken into account." 

In 2005/6 Norwich City ran up a profit before tax of £3,064,814, which was almost the same as the profit from the sale of players (£3,046,666).  Now that''s what I call a sobering fact.  It indicates we were almost certainly the most profitable club in the division, by some margin.  No one thinks it''s desirable to make a loss, but it''s evidence if any were needed that the club has got its priorities seriously wrong. 

 

[/quote]

The priorities are wrong because the club made a profit!!! Are you for real....surely not.....

I spent 5 minutes trying to think up a sarcastic reply to this post but I couldn''t.  The comment is so incredibly stupid I just cant get my head around it.  Priorities wrong cause the club made a profit.....Unbelievable

There you go Doncaster, you can never please every fan because we have got idiots like this...

[/quote]

And where has three successive years of profits got the club exactly? Even whilst raking in two £7.1million parachute payments the club still made millions in profit on players (despite our oh-so-honest board telling us it`s all pumped back into the team) and now we are apparently faced with a bleak financial future (although the board can afford to borrow more to pay for new offices) and laughably, may have to sell our playing "assets" to survive.

To quote R.Munby from the latest annual report "Essentially we are a not-for-profit organisation". Why the obsession with making a profit a profit at the expense of the team then? The only people who really benefit as i see it are the treasury-to whom we have needlessly given away £2.5million in tax over that period.

[/quote]

You will probably find that this money is sat in our retained profit account, essentially the clubs operating cash flow.

However you seem to missed the point.  The club making a profit as opposed to a loss is a good thing.  If we can find ways to continually generate profit that can only be good for the club long term.  If you continue to spend more than you earn you are heading for bankruptcy.

I''m sorry if you doubt me but I honestly find it incredible that someone would say we have our priorities wrong for making a profit.  If we can get to the point where we make profit every year then this club will eventually move forward.  With the mad money in the game today and the amount of clubs making losses it is only a matter of time before those loss making clubs fall by the wayside.  We will then be on hand to capitilise.

I would also be willing to bet that a large proportion of that money would still be made available to Grant for the right young player with the right potential i.e a player whos value can only go up ala Ashton.

Agree that the clubs supposed honesty isn''t always what it seems.  They seem to tell the fans what they want to hear.  I just want the truth irrespective of whether I would like it or not.

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[quote user="jimmy500"][quote user="mystic megson"]

In the Annual Report (p.5) Neil Doncaster states:

"Indeed, it is a sobering fact that in 2005/6 the 24 Championship clubs ran up average combined losses before tax of just over £2m per club, even after player sales had been taken into account." 

In 2005/6 Norwich City ran up a profit before tax of £3,064,814, which was almost the same as the profit from the sale of players (£3,046,666).  Now that''s what I call a sobering fact.  It indicates we were almost certainly the most profitable club in the division, by some margin.  No one thinks it''s desirable to make a loss, but it''s evidence if any were needed that the club has got its priorities seriously wrong. 

 

[/quote]

The priorities are wrong because the club made a profit!!! Are you for real....surely not.....

I spent 5 minutes trying to think up a sarcastic reply to this post but I couldn''t.  The comment is so incredibly stupid I just cant get my head around it.  Priorities wrong cause the club made a profit.....Unbelievable

There you go Doncaster, you can never please every fan because we have got idiots like this...

[/quote]

jimmy, how did we make that profit?  From selling players.  Did we reinvest it in the team?  No.  Where did we finish last season?  16th.

I just don''t know how to put it any more simply.  What on earth is wrong with you?  Have you any interest in football at all?

 

 

 

 

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[quote user="blahblahblah"]Some light to go with the shade that I have brought from the same report :

  • It may surprise some people that over the past decade the top 92 professional clubs have each year, on average, spent £20m more on stadium investment than they have on net transfer fees

  • Premier League clubs have spent over 15% of revenue generated since 92/93 on improving their facilities, Football League clubs have spent over 12%.  These are impressive amounts and again illustrate that stadium investment, and the on-going financial benefits it can deliver, is a significant element of a successful football business strategy.
It seems that a lot of clubs are investing more in facilities than players.

I couldn''t find the bit where it mentions the correlation between performance and wages though.
[/quote]

Is being 20th in the Championship a "significant element of a successful football business strategy"?

 

FOOTBALL MUST COME FIRST

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[quote user="Mr.Carrow"][quote user="jimmy500"][quote user="mystic megson"]

In the Annual Report (p.5) Neil Doncaster states:

"Indeed, it is a sobering fact that in 2005/6 the 24 Championship clubs ran up average combined losses before tax of just over £2m per club, even after player sales had been taken into account." 

In 2005/6 Norwich City ran up a profit before tax of £3,064,814, which was almost the same as the profit from the sale of players (£3,046,666).  Now that''s what I call a sobering fact.  It indicates we were almost certainly the most profitable club in the division, by some margin.  No one thinks it''s desirable to make a loss, but it''s evidence if any were needed that the club has got its priorities seriously wrong. 

 

[/quote]

The priorities are wrong because the club made a profit!!! Are you for real....surely not.....

I spent 5 minutes trying to think up a sarcastic reply to this post but I couldn''t.  The comment is so incredibly stupid I just cant get my head around it.  Priorities wrong cause the club made a profit.....Unbelievable

There you go Doncaster, you can never please every fan because we have got idiots like this...

[/quote]

And where has three successive years of profits got the club exactly? Even whilst raking in two £7.1million parachute payments the club still made millions in profit on players (despite our oh-so-honest board telling us it`s all pumped back into the team) and now we are apparently faced with a bleak financial future (although the board can afford to borrow more to pay for new offices) and laughably, may have to sell our playing "assets" to survive.

To quote R.Munby from the latest annual report "Essentially we are a not-for-profit organisation". Why the obsession with making a profit a profit at the expense of the team then? The only people who really benefit as i see it are the treasury-to whom we have needlessly given away £2.5million in tax over that period.

[/quote]

Perfect!

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[quote user="blahblahblah"]Some light to go with the shade that I have brought from the same report :

  • It may surprise some people that over the past decade the top 92 professional clubs have each year, on average, spent £20m more on stadium investment than they have on net transfer fees

  • Premier League clubs have spent over 15% of revenue generated since 92/93 on improving their facilities, Football League clubs have spent over 12%.  These are impressive amounts and again illustrate that stadium investment, and the on-going financial benefits it can deliver, is a significant element of a successful football business strategy.

It seems that a lot of clubs are investing more in facilities than players.

I couldn''t find the bit where it mentions the correlation between performance and wages though.
[/quote]

If you are looking for the correlation between performance and wages try this link http://www-econ.stanford.edu/academics/Honors_Theses/Theses_2004/Rapp.pdf. I haven''t read it all but the bit that sticks in my mind is that there is a 92% correlation between wages and league position over a 20 year period in Soccer (they are Americans after all). I think if anyone wanted to argue against this they would need a lot of research!!!!

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[quote user="jimmy500"]

You will probably find that this money is sat in our retained profit account, essentially the clubs operating cash flow.

However you seem to missed the point.  The club making a profit as opposed to a loss is a good thing.  If we can find ways to continually generate profit that can only be good for the club long term.  If you continue to spend more than you earn you are heading for bankruptcy.

I''m sorry if you doubt me but I honestly find it incredible that someone would say we have our priorities wrong for making a profit.  If we can get to the point where we make profit every year then this club will eventually move forward.  With the mad money in the game today and the amount of clubs making losses it is only a matter of time before those loss making clubs fall by the wayside.  We will then be on hand to capitilise.

I would also be willing to bet that a large proportion of that money would still be made available to Grant for the right young player with the right potential i.e a player whos value can only go up ala Ashton.

Agree that the clubs supposed honesty isn''t always what it seems.  They seem to tell the fans what they want to hear.  I just want the truth irrespective of whether I would like it or not.

[/quote]

But Jimmy, the only reason we''ve made this profit is because of the parachute payments from SKY. These are paid to us due to our relative success (i.e. Promotion to The Premiership) on the pitch. Failure to invest enough money in the team to let sucessive managers challenge for promotion once more only ensures that we will be unlikely to receive this money again in the future.

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[quote user="jimmy500"]

You will probably find that this money is sat in our retained profit account, essentially the clubs operating cash flow.

However you seem to missed the point.  The club making a profit as opposed to a loss is a good thing.  If we can find ways to continually generate profit that can only be good for the club long term.  If you continue to spend more than you earn you are heading for bankruptcy.

I''m sorry if you doubt me but I honestly find it incredible that someone would say we have our priorities wrong for making a profit.  If we can get to the point where we make profit every year then this club will eventually move forward.  With the mad money in the game today and the amount of clubs making losses it is only a matter of time before those loss making clubs fall by the wayside.  We will then be on hand to capitilise.

I would also be willing to bet that a large proportion of that money would still be made available to Grant for the right young player with the right potential i.e a player whos value can only go up ala Ashton.

Agree that the clubs supposed honesty isn''t always what it seems.  They seem to tell the fans what they want to hear.  I just want the truth irrespective of whether I would like it or not.

[/quote]

But Jimmy, the only reason we''ve made this profit is because of the parachute payments from SKY. These are paid to us due to our relative success (i.e. Promotion to The Premiership) on the pitch. Failure to invest enough money in the team to let sucessive managers challenge for promotion once more only ensures that we will be unlikely to receive this money again in the future.

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[quote user="mystic megson"][quote user="jimmy500"][quote user="mystic megson"]

In the Annual Report (p.5) Neil Doncaster states:

"Indeed, it is a sobering fact that in 2005/6 the 24 Championship clubs ran up average combined losses before tax of just over £2m per club, even after player sales had been taken into account." 

In 2005/6 Norwich City ran up a profit before tax of £3,064,814, which was almost the same as the profit from the sale of players (£3,046,666).  Now that''s what I call a sobering fact.  It indicates we were almost certainly the most profitable club in the division, by some margin.  No one thinks it''s desirable to make a loss, but it''s evidence if any were needed that the club has got its priorities seriously wrong. 

 

[/quote]

The priorities are wrong because the club made a profit!!! Are you for real....surely not.....

I spent 5 minutes trying to think up a sarcastic reply to this post but I couldn''t.  The comment is so incredibly stupid I just cant get my head around it.  Priorities wrong cause the club made a profit.....Unbelievable

There you go Doncaster, you can never please every fan because we have got idiots like this...

[/quote]

jimmy, how did we make that profit?  From selling players.  Did we reinvest it in the team?  No.  Where did we finish last season?  16th.

I just don''t know how to put it any more simply.  What on earth is wrong with you?  Have you any interest in football at all?

 

 

 

 

[/quote]

Yes I am interested in football.  But it doesn''t work like a computer game in th real world.  As I have already said in a previous post that money is probably in the retained profit account, our operating capital.  Without it there would probably be no club, or a club in administration.

In an ideal world we would have invested it back into the team.  In fact every penny ever generated from player sales would be invested into the team.  Unfortunately we don''t live in an ideal world, we live in a world where the vast majority of clubs have to generate profit from player trading to stay afloat.  That is not pie in the sky it is fact.  What makes you think we are an exception to that rule.

However, and I may contradict myself a little here.  I agree that the investment in playing staff should have been more ambitious while we had the parachute payment safety net.

And finally, it is irrelevant where we finished in the league 3rd - 20th because unless you win promotion you are in exactly the same boat for the next season.  Football is rapidly becoming the golden gamble and unfortunately there are going to be more losers than winners.  The consequences of losing, we will probably find out in about 5 years time.

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[quote user="Shack Attack"][quote user="jimmy500"]

The priorities are wrong because the club made a profit!!! Are you for real....surely not.....

I spent 5 minutes trying to think up a sarcastic reply to this post but I couldn''t.  The comment is so incredibly stupid I just cant get my head around it.  Priorities wrong cause the club made a profit.....Unbelievable

There you go Doncaster, you can never please every fan because we have got idiots like this...

[/quote]

Oooh so we can take our profit and go into the profity play-offs where we have a one off game of monopoly with all the other teams who have made a profit. Doncaster can move our piece round the board, let''s give him the boot. The winner gets to take the place of the Premiership team who made the least profit last year. Then we will see once and for all how our prudent and profity board have masterminded our rise back to the top.

Sarcastic like that you mean.

[/quote]

Exactly like that, good use of sarcasm.  Very impressive, well done.....

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[quote user="Shack Attack"][quote user="jimmy500"]

You will probably find that this money is sat in our retained profit account, essentially the clubs operating cash flow.

However you seem to missed the point.  The club making a profit as opposed to a loss is a good thing.  If we can find ways to continually generate profit that can only be good for the club long term.  If you continue to spend more than you earn you are heading for bankruptcy.

I''m sorry if you doubt me but I honestly find it incredible that someone would say we have our priorities wrong for making a profit.  If we can get to the point where we make profit every year then this club will eventually move forward.  With the mad money in the game today and the amount of clubs making losses it is only a matter of time before those loss making clubs fall by the wayside.  We will then be on hand to capitilise.

I would also be willing to bet that a large proportion of that money would still be made available to Grant for the right young player with the right potential i.e a player whos value can only go up ala Ashton.

Agree that the clubs supposed honesty isn''t always what it seems.  They seem to tell the fans what they want to hear.  I just want the truth irrespective of whether I would like it or not.

[/quote]

But Jimmy, the only reason we''ve made this profit is because of the parachute payments from SKY. These are paid to us due to our relative success (i.e. Promotion to The Premiership) on the pitch. Failure to invest enough money in the team to let sucessive managers challenge for promotion once more only ensures that we will be unlikely to receive this money again in the future.

[/quote]

jimmy, profit is not a good thing in either football or financial terms if it is at the expense of team building.  If the team goes down the pan our income will dry up.

In 1995 Robert Chase needed money to pay off debts.  He gambled on finding the right balance between deinvesting in the squad and avoiding relegation.  He got it wrong, we were relegated and almost went bust into the bargain.  One piece of financial mismanagement undid over 20 years of football progress.  I see every sign that the club is adopting a similar strategy now.  Have we learned absolutely nothing?

 

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[quote user="jimmy500"]

And finally, it is irrelevant where we finished in the league 3rd - 20th because unless you win promotion you are in exactly the same boat for the next season. 

[/quote]

jimmy old son I''m really starting to worry about you.  Firstly, have you heard of the playoffs?  Secondly, the closer we finish to the top the less rebuilding we have to do the following season, and the more likely we are to keep our best players.  Thirdly, the very essence of football is competition and if we do not at least attempt to compete we might as well give up.  People won''t pay to watch it (I hope). 

The "let''s not bother to try in case we don''t succeed" brigade will kill the game far more quickly than the Sky megamillionaires.

"It is irrelevant where we finished in the league 3rd - 20th".  I''d like to tattoo that statement on your arse.

 

 

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[quote user="mystic megson"]

[quote user="jimmy500"]

And finally, it is irrelevant where we finished in the league 3rd - 20th because unless you win promotion you are in exactly the same boat for the next season. 

[/quote]

jimmy old son I''m really starting to worry about you.  Firstly, have you heard of the playoffs?  Secondly, the closer we finish to the top the less rebuilding we have to do the following season, and the more likely we are to keep our best players.  Thirdly, the very essence of football is competition and if we do not at least attempt to compete we might as well give up.  People won''t pay to watch it (I hope). 

The "let''s not bother to try in case we don''t succeed" brigade will kill the game far more quickly than the Sky megamillionaires.

"It is irrelevant where we finished in the league 3rd - 20th".  I''d like to tattoo that statement on your arse.

 

 

[/quote]

"I''d like to tattoo that statement on your arse"

Mystic, I have an extremely sharp javelin and four litres of crude printer''s ink you could have, if required?[:|]

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[quote user="Mello Yello"][quote user="mystic megson"]

[quote user="jimmy500"]

And finally, it is irrelevant where we finished in the league 3rd - 20th because unless you win promotion you are in exactly the same boat for the next season. 

[/quote]

jimmy old son I''m really starting to worry about you.  Firstly, have you heard of the playoffs?  Secondly, the closer we finish to the top the less rebuilding we have to do the following season, and the more likely we are to keep our best players.  Thirdly, the very essence of football is competition and if we do not at least attempt to compete we might as well give up.  People won''t pay to watch it (I hope). 

The "let''s not bother to try in case we don''t succeed" brigade will kill the game far more quickly than the Sky megamillionaires.

"It is irrelevant where we finished in the league 3rd - 20th".  I''d like to tattoo that statement on your arse.

 

 

[/quote]

"I''d like to tattoo that statement on your arse"

Mystic, I have an extremely sharp javelin and four litres of crude printer''s ink you could have, if required?[:|]

[/quote]

Cheers Mello [:D]

I wanted to make sure the tattoo would be somewhere he could see it . . . [;)]

 

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[quote user="mystic megson"]

[quote user="jimmy500"]

And finally, it is irrelevant where we finished in the league 3rd - 20th because unless you win promotion you are in exactly the same boat for the next season. 

[/quote]

jimmy old son I''m really starting to worry about you.  Firstly, have you heard of the playoffs?  Secondly, the closer we finish to the top the less rebuilding we have to do the following season, and the more likely we are to keep our best players.  Thirdly, the very essence of football is competition and if we do not at least attempt to compete we might as well give up.  People won''t pay to watch it (I hope). 

The "let''s not bother to try in case we don''t succeed" brigade will kill the game far more quickly than the Sky megamillionaires.

"It is irrelevant where we finished in the league 3rd - 20th".  I''d like to tattoo that statement on your arse.

 

 

[/quote]

I cannot beleive this guy, it is irrelevamnt where we finish.  So our play-off finish was a failure of a season in your eyes?

You like to see NCFC make a profit!!  In other words horde the cash )and send some to the taxman, rather than invest in the team.  Are you actually on our Board??

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[quote user="Citizen Journalist Foghorn"][quote user="mystic megson"]

[quote user="jimmy500"]

And finally, it is irrelevant where we finished in the league 3rd - 20th because unless you win promotion you are in exactly the same boat for the next season. 

[/quote]

jimmy old son I''m really starting to worry about you.  Firstly, have you heard of the playoffs?  Secondly, the closer we finish to the top the less rebuilding we have to do the following season, and the more likely we are to keep our best players.  Thirdly, the very essence of football is competition and if we do not at least attempt to compete we might as well give up.  People won''t pay to watch it (I hope). 

The "let''s not bother to try in case we don''t succeed" brigade will kill the game far more quickly than the Sky megamillionaires.

"It is irrelevant where we finished in the league 3rd - 20th".  I''d like to tattoo that statement on your arse.

 

 

[/quote]

I cannot beleive this guy, it is irrelevamnt where we finish.  So our play-off finish was a failure of a season in your eyes?

You like to see NCFC make a profit!!  In other words horde the cash )and send some to the taxman, rather than invest in the team.  Are you actually on our Board??

[/quote]

The playoff finish wasnt a failure, I never said that.  Generated a bit of extra cash, raised the profile of the club a bit, a couple of great days out for the fans.

Tattoo''s on my arse - a bit harsh, no need for it really.

And yes, I want to see the club make a profit every year, just like I want my business to make a profit every year.  Its the best way forward for long term progress.

Its a gamble now going for the premier league.  You need quality players and they come at a premium.  How many times can we afford to gamble with the debt we have, once, twice? Who knows.  My thinking is that we gradually gain momentum, invest a little in the playing staff, make a little profit, invest a little in additional money making ventures.  Eventually we will find ourselves in the position we want to be.

Problem is it isn''t the immediate solution that all us fans want.  ME INCLUDED.  We wasted our chance to gamble, we should have done it 2 seasons ago as Watford and the like are doing now.  But if they don''t win promotion within 2 seasons they will find themselves in exactly the same shoes as us again.  Having to sell players to stay afloat.

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You''re all worrying over the clubs finances when there''s really no need... we''ve got 125k coming in for Ashtons England game... we''re saved!

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[quote user="jimmy500"] And yes, I want to see the club make a profit every year, just like I want my business to make a profit every year.  Its the best way forward for long term progress.

Its a gamble now going for the premier league.  You need quality players and they come at a premium.  How many times can we afford to gamble with the debt we have, once, twice? Who knows.  My thinking is that we gradually gain momentum, invest a little in the playing staff, make a little profit, invest a little in additional money making ventures.  Eventually we will find ourselves in the position we want to be.

Problem is it isn''t the immediate solution that all us fans want.  ME INCLUDED.  We wasted our chance to gamble, we should have done it 2 seasons ago as Watford and the like are doing now.  But if they don''t win promotion within 2 seasons they will find themselves in exactly the same shoes as us again.  Having to sell players to stay afloat.[/quote]

Jimmy, whilst I understand the method you are suggesting, it''s simply not a truly realistic option.

Each and every season that we stay in the position we are, it lowers our chances of improvement quite substantially - unless we get a massive level of external investment to correct it.

Each season now the relegated teams are going to have a huge warchest of parachute payments to facilitate their return to the top level meaning that they are going to be in the position to be able to happily spend 3-4 million per player to make their return attempt, whilst still being able to keep the majority of their top players on high wages.

Based on the current suggested profits from our non-footballing ventures, we are unlikely to come anywhere near that level of profit and financial position within the next decade, by which point it''s then way too late for it to be effective anymore, as the game and finances will have moved on too much.

The key factor is the balance between staying afloat whilst still making an effective attempt at promotion. A financial juggling act of the greatest difficulty. It would appear that we had the opportunity to avoid being in this situation, made the wrong choice and it''s cost the club dearly. We are now stuck in the uneviable position of trying to acheive promotion on a shoestring.

It is clearly a gamble going for the Premier League, however with the way football is changing, if we don''t sort something out in the next 2-3 years, I feel it will be virtually impossible for many clubs to compete with those recently relegated, and we''re likely to see something of a yo-yo position, with the same 6-8 teams being in the promotion frame every season.

The choice on offer is not an easy one, do we risk the financial security and long-term sustainability of the club by spending the money we need to soon, in order to make an effective charge at promotion, or do we choose to accept that the Premiership is now truly something we can only aspire to, and accept life in the Championship or even lower leagues?

As a fan I will support the club regardless, but I don''t think you''ll find anyone out there who is happy to accept the possibility of us never playing at the top level again, never making a push into Europe to take on the Elite teams, never signing players who cost more than a million, and never having anything better to look forward than away match against the mighty Brentford etc, or the chance of playing a premiership team in the League Cup.

If we ever again want to play with the best in the world, we need to make the financial commitment to acheive it, prudence is all well and good, but it''s clearly been demonstrated that it simply allows us to tread water, not swim forwards.

If we genuinely want to take the club forwards we have three options:

A) Give Grant the money in January, and if needed in the Summer to make a concerted push for promotion this/next season

B) Consider this season as purely a consolidation season, see how the team is looking under Grant and if no improvement can be seen in the quality of play and in the team dynamic, look to replace Grant in the summer, then allow a new manager to push the boat out in the summer.

C) Regardless of current/upcoming performances, look to replace Grant by the New year ready for the Jan window, bring in a more experienced manager and give them the time and money to make the push by next season at the latest.

I personally think that option A or B would be the most sensible options, and if Grant can improve the playing style, then option A could well work, as I genuinely think we have a decent squad that can be built upon to make a strong push.

The main problem with all this conjecture is that regardless of what we feel, the board themselves will make the call on what to do, and based on both past and recent evidence, I don''t think that investing heavily in the playing squad is going to be their first choice...

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Good post Indy, and I agree with the majority of what you say.

I am sure the club could raise a significant amoungt of cash if required.  Restructuring the debt would be one option, it has worked well for derby and arsenal.

If we are going to go for it then we have to go for it now because as you rightly point out, we will probably get left behind.  Spend decent money on a couple of loanees now, bring in some quality in January and have a real push for promotion.  We could probably sustain it for the rest of this season and maybe next.

However, if we fail with that push.  Its back to my plan, save a little, spend a little and invest a little.

I will say though, for all the hammering I have received on this thread, I am like all you fans.  I want to see improvements, results and big time players signed for city NOW.  I want us to be at the sharp end of things today.  Trouble is I really cant see it happening.

Maybe in 10 years eh, at least then I will be going to matches with my sons, if I cant see good football I just hope they can.  Couldn''t stand it if I had a house full of chelsea/man utd/arsenal fans.....worst nightmare

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