Hotel or more seats?

[listen (formerly MG7) 0]

I think I''m right in saying that the club has got permission from the council to build a hotel in between the Barclay and the South Stand.

But do the fans really want a hotel built there?

Personally I''d prefer to have another corner infill built there, the same as the one they''re now starting at the other end of the South Stand.

Would the club really make more money out of a hotel there than they would by selling an extra 2,000 tickets 20 times a year? Maybe a hotel built on the land at the back of the South Stand would be a better idea?

Not only that, but if a hotel were built in the corner, as is being proposed, it would be a little bit odd for the fans in the Lower Barclay, possibly not being able to see the away fans? I don''t know exactly how it will be built, but I think more seats is a better idea, for the atmosphere, and revenue-wise. If the club hasn''t signed a contract with anyone to actually build the hotel (and I don''t think they have), then could they not apply for planning permission for an infill instead?

What do others think?

OTBC

[blacko 0]

I agree seats are better but do not know how to find out what the plans are for

[Ayrton Twigge 0]

The only possible reason for having a hotel in that position is that it provides facillities for the hotel - conference rooms, function rooms, restaurants etc that provide an outlook into a football stadium. Anything else makes no sense at all.

Therefore, will these areas generate more income on matchdays with the corporate fraternity versus regular supporters - your 20x2000 tickets? Undoubtedly, they can be used at all other times too generating further revenue which shoulkd also be taken into account. There is a special ambience available when overlooking an empty, peaceful stadium that carries a premium - and would set this hotel apart from any other competition within a large catchment.

A big but, in addition to your comments on atmoshere might be that it could compete with existing facillities in the City stand and the Restaurant in the River End taking revenue from the club into the hotel.

And once built, you can forget any future expansion in that part of the ground.

Personally, I don''t like it!!

[BedsCanary 0]

I''d imagine that the back of the hotel onlooking Carrow Road will look more like a ''box corner'', similar to how the old disabled bit looked, but much bigger. I think putting seats in wouldn''t be a great idea because for 9 out of 10 games they''d have to be ''covered'' with netting or something to keep the barclay from the away fans.

Be nice to have a big screen in that corner, though - it''s about time we got one

[listen (formerly MG7) 0]

I agree that we could forget any further expansion of that corner of the stadium if we built a hotel there. Not only that, but it would look very odd if we ever did add a second tier to the new South Stand.

In terms of overlooking the stadium - surely there are facilities available in the stands, for corporate affairs, dinners, conferences, etc.?

I don''t think that it would be a good idea to build a hotel there when we have comparable facilities elsewhere in the stadium. Admittedly, we don''t have any hotel rooms overlooking the stadium, but would such rooms be THAT popular? Also, there would only be a limited number which would actually overlook the pitch - the rest would be overlooking roads, houses, etc. Not exactly attractive.

In terms of having to cover some seats, I think that the wall on the side of the Barclay would do a good enough job of separating fans, meaning that only a few rows of seats would need to be covered by netting. If there were two or three rows kept empty, with a row of stewards in between, and with the wall, I think that that would be sufficient.

With regard to the revenue, I do agree that a hotel would make some money for the club, but I feel as though the novelty may wear off a heck of a lot quicker than the novelty of extra seats. Especially if we are still in the Premiership or at least competing at the top of Division One.

Finally, if there were hotel rooms overlooking the pitch, would they be available on match days? Would we find people booking the rooms on match days, and then auctioning them off to the highest bidder? Would rival fan book the rooms? Would there be trouble in the hotel if the away team lost?

I do agree with the idea of a big screen though, maybe one on top of the River End, and one on top of the Barclay? Anyone know what the cost of buying / running them is?

OTBC

[Ali Bunkall 0]

A couple of points:
1. Chelski have a hotel built it so it must make some financial sense...I can''t believe Bates and co would have spurned a money making oppurtunity in favour of accomodation!
2. However they managed to incorporate seating on the pitch side of the hotel at Stamford Bridge. Now i guess this is quite tricky to picture but what bascially is the case, is that you have a corner infill, with an extended back that makes up the hotel. a number of select ''suite'' rooms will have a view of the pitch. This would look similar to the Barclay and N & P stand.
3. If you saw ''Football Diaries'' on Sunday, BBC 2, they showed the inside of the hotel at The Majdeski Stadium. I have to admit, it looked very smart. Aesthetic, but a classy addition to the club.
4. As far as seating revenue .vs. hotel revenue is concerned: if we can make the hotel one of the best in the city, and make another 1st class Carrow Road restaurant and provide the best hospitality/banqueting/conferencing in the city, then I believe the capital gained could be considerable.

[Ali Bunkall 0]

With regards to a TV screen in the stadium, I think the Faro staduium in Portugal that England played in a few months ago might have the answer. They used a Convex, Modern design infill, with a large screen in the centre. Looked good, but not too expensive. Would solve a temoporary infill problem. We should have a large screen. would be a fantastic improvement to the ground.

Just think come december: New South Stand, New Pitch, New Infill, and maybe a large screen. Wouldn''t have imagined that a year ago!

[Peter 0]

Hotel must make economic sense or the plan would not be being pursued.

Surely the question of seperating Barclay from away fans is not an issue, I preume there will need to be vehicular access to the pitch for emergency vehicles, which if hotel built upsides of Barclay or Jarrold will not be possible, therefore must be access to one of these with the hotel building forming a barrier between the two rival sets.

Norwich needs quality hotel accomodation and such a facility will allow events to be hosted at Carrow Road, which needs to be utilised more than on match days. The revenue from hosting such events, catering etc. must be considered worthwhile. Otherwise the offices, space created by the Jarrold may just be wasted.

However unpalatable non footballing matters might disgust the fans NCFC is a business and needs to find commercial activities to raise money from non footballing ventures.

[BH0201 0]

Totally agree. A hotel provides a far more guaranteed source of income. How many people wouldn''t go if something terrible happened and City got relegated to Division 2? The hotel would then be a major income stream whilst the seats would be a drain.

It''s not so long ago that we were nearly out of business and the executive haven''t forgotten this. They are going to secure the club for the next 50 years before moving forward.

Craig

[Mr.Carrow 376]

I just hope the club are looking into the possibility of having BOTH- a hotel and some seats in front of it. Whilst i believe the board have done a superb job it can appear a bit on the conservative side sometimes-apparently there were a number of people within the club backing the building of a 6000-seat South stand rather than 8000. How ridiculous does this seem now?

As there doesnt seem to be any imminent building of the hotel, how about putting a temporary stand in the gap for next season? Considering we could virtually sell the current capacity out with season-tickets i think an extra 1000 or so seats will go no problem.

[Moanin Riverender 0]

Definately should at least be a temporary stand in place,it defies belief we will start the Premier League with a huge gap in one corner,when so many are waiting for seats.Remember last Monday night,the potential for this club is massive.

[listen (formerly MG7) 0]

I understand the need for emergency access to the pitch, but I don''t think it will prove too much of a problem, whether we build a hotel or an infill stand. Look at stadiums like the Madejski in Reading, where there are big gaps at ground level, big enough for an ambulance to get through, and then the seats are built over the top. Then look at stadiums like Old Trafford, Anfield, White Hart Lane. They are all fully enclosed, but I''m sure they get around the issue of emergency access to the pitch.

I agree that if we do have to build a hotel there, then it should be built with a few rooms having views of the pitch, and possibly the club could utilise the facilities in the Barclay and South Stands for conferences, etc.

The hotel could then be built with a few premium rooms with pitchside views, and then the hotel being built further back, and maybe even round to the back of the South Stand. I know it''s be a bit of an odd shape, but we could then still make money from the facilities, and build an infill in front of the hotel (except for the few rooms - possibly high up above the rest of the seats - with a pitch view), which would cater for the extra fans.

I''m still concerned about the issue of fans in the hotel on matchdays, auctioning off the rooms to the highest bidder, with away fans and home fans possibly clashing in the hotel, or away fans causing troble if they have lost. Do you think the club has considered these issues? How have Reading, for example, coped with them?

Also, with regards to the seats possibly not selling - I can''t see that happening. With the ''prudence with ambition'' line being wheeled out by the board, it seems as though even if we did go down, we''d still be financially able to compete at the top of Division One at the very least. The fanbase is expanding and growing, and I don''t think adding seats is a bad idea.

I agree that we should combine the idea of a hotel (which is needed in the city, admittedly) with extra seats.

[At last? 0]

My understanding is that the "rooms" which overlook the pitch at West Ham are not available match days as they are converted to presold executive boxes/suites. So the fears won''t arise.

The city is crying out for a decent central hotel. The Nelson currently has a monopoly and frankly is poor. They know they are poor but also know they have no competition nearby so dont need to invest heavily.

A 4 or 5 star hotel would make a fortune.

There will need to be a tunnel for pitch access which would be great for separating home and away fans, then seats could be above it, segregated as appropriate.

One thing is for sure, its going to happen and its when not if.

[olster 0]

I was saying to my mate the other day how great it would be if carrow raod was an arena rather than a pitch with stands round the outside


I guess money talks and a hotel would provide income all year round.

[Bryan Gunn 0]

From what was said when the south satnd was being planned, the hotel if built, would use the already existing conference and banqueting facilities that we have @the club so there would be no loss of revenue there. The planned Hotel is to be 5 star, this would be the only 5 star hotel in norfolk and possibly east anglia as far as I know. So it will fill a gap in the market and the club will be leasing the land to bulid the hotel to a majour hotel company so they put themselves at no finanical risk if it is not succesful.

I think it is important to incorporate extra seating as well as rooms overlooking the pitch as there is a strong demand for them and the club should definetly look at putting temporary seating in that corner for those on the waiting list for season tickets, then move them to the river end corner when built, freeing up the temporary seats for half season ticket sale or casual sale.

[FatMan Fat 0]

Why is everyone assuming that if the hotel is built it will belong to the Club? My understanding is that the land is being sold off to help clear up some of the debt that we have, and that therefore the hotel would be an independant venture with no involvement from NCFC.

[Mcsncfcmcs 0]

Whilst ideally we would like more seats, in the long term the hotel is a much better option. Its all very well wanting another load of seats, but another 1800 infill would cost another £2.5-3m. Our budget for this season is already limited, and lets face it, one of the biggest criticisms we had about Chase was the way he spent all the money on buildings rather than players. A temporary bit (especially for this coming season) is a good idea in principle, but like has been mentioned, that area has to provide emergency vehicle access, which is something you could build into plans for a permanent structure, but probably not so easily with a temporary stand.

The Hotel option is very attractive for the club. We all know Norwich is crying out for a few quality hotels, and Carrow Rd is a great site for one (close to the train station, near the Riverside area, not far from the City centre etc). The biggest bonus for the club is that this option would not require us having to put money into the project (and more specifically, money we haven''t really got) as all we supply is the land (also this means that our liabilty if the hotel doesn''t do well is minimal to none). We wouldn''t get income in terms of a percentage of profits for the Hotel, but we would get a significant amount from the tie-up with the catering at Carrow Rd, and it would also encourage larger firms/businesses to use the conference facilities. These might be boring points but they bring in crucial money for the running of our club, and the more money we get from them, the better. Where the hotel really comes into its own is apparently 8 years down the line, when the developers and operators sell the premises onto another group (which I believe is standard practice, although I''m no expert!). According to Delia and Doncaster at the NCISA meeting, we would stand to take a considerable percentage of this sale (the figure of 50% comes to my mind but I''m not 100% sure that is what they said). Therefore the hotel option is practicle in the short term (in not needing money from us) and potentially very lucrative in the long term, and its this sort of long-term thinking that has enabled us to build to our current place, and will help secure the future of the club we love for years to come.

By adding another 1800 seats, we probably wouldn''t gain that much money from it, because like with the other in-fill the additional revenue it brings in would only go towards paying off the cost of building it. So the club would only start to see additional income from it in 5-6 years time (and thats if we sell out each game during the period) once the extra stand is paid for (obvioulsy extra money is raised from matchday food and drink etc, but not massive amounts). So whilst we could accomodate more fans, it doesn''t really bring a great benefit at the moment. I think the only reason we would build another in-fill is because we wanted a shorter term fix, and that isn''t really financially viable. Building piece by piece is the best way. Our capacity will be 26,000 when the other in-fill is complete, with the potential to put another tier on the Jarrold stand of 4,000 (increasing capacity to 30,000) as well as the potential to put another tier on the City stand. The moving of the pitch this summer shows that the club are thinking this way in the long term and I would guess that another tier would bring about 5,000 extra seats if it stretched all the way along and above the infills, possibly 6,000. So even without having seats in between the Barclay and Jarrold Stand, we have the potential capacity at Carrow Rd of 35-36,000, something we are unlikely to out grow for years, if ever. That is why I see another infill as just a quick fix, and like I said, a quick fix we cannot afford.

So it is going to be frustrating knowing we have a greater demand for tickets than we can meet (in the Premier at least, whether we woud consistantly get over 26,000 in

[Bryan Gunn 0]

Mcsncfcmcs, exactly what I was trying to say! you just used a bit more detail

[BH0201 0]

It is to be a joint venture. NCFC have the land and planning permission. A separate company will build the thing. They will pay for the buildings. The operation of the hotel will be jointly owned by the two parties and profit will be shared.

Craig

[milan marcus 0]

I actually own two hotels in the city and thought I might add my views to the debate about a hotel at the ground.

The first point is that running a hotel is not easy even when the market is good such as Norwich at the moment. There is always pressure on finances the constant investment a hotel needs is a real drain - therefore the club quite rightly should have no financial risk in the investment. However by having no financial risk the rewards will by definition be lower and therefore there must be some sort of trade off made.

The reason why there are no five star hotels in the area is that although people say they want five star accommodation will they pay £160-£180 plus a night for a standard room. If they are will there be enough to fill a 120-160 rooms a night? In other areas there is demand due to the geographic and economic environment but we do not have that environment. The market has moved to "boutique/designer led hotel" which Norwich really needs but this in not the same as a football club hotel.

A four star hotel may work but would be under intense price pressure form Dunston and Sprowston and the financial risk to an operator would be risky. In addition the Showground are planning a four star 200 beds plus hotel which would really put a spanner in the works. The market for new hotels is dominated by budget hotels at the moment and I do not think they will pay a premium to build at Carrow Road.

The hotels at other football grounds struggle for high occupancy because how many people want to spend a relaxed weekend break at a football ground? If an operator looks at occupancy at other similar football club hotels they will see there is little premium in being at a football club and therefore why invest at carrow road when you can build at a green/ brownfield site?

There is something of a prestige factor by having a hotel at your club and I believe this may be the factor which is driving the hotel concept. Delia would love to be connected to a hotel as would other board members and therefore if a deal could be done they would love to do it but I just cannot see how it would be more viable then having more seats.

The success of the hotel would have little effect on the club finances because as I understand it we are getting our reward when the hotel is sold. There is no profit share on our investment i.e. the land. Even if there was profit share it would not be guaranteed and would be subject to the risks I have already outlined.

If we were financially as a club going to risk the investment in order for a large reward if successful then it may be worth it but by "giving the land" in return for a stake at a later stage (I would think a max of 25% stake there is no way it would be 50%) I just cannot see why it is worthwhile. If the hotel is worth £10 million when sold our stake would be about £2.5million if this was invested we would get about £200,000 per year. A new 3,000 stand would generate about £1.2million per year (3,000 multiply £400 - this includes season ticket plus other revenue i.e. bar and food).

Maybe we would not fill it if we got relegated but I bet we would still make more than £200,000. I think the public of Norwich have really got the idea of supporting a football team (at last!!) i.e. city hall etc and even if we can compete in the top of Div 1 each season I really think we would sell those season tickets (Euro 2004 coming up even more support). An extra £1 million a year is a massive difference and I do not think the average supporter (or NCFC board member!) has thought this through.

I own hotels but they are three star and therefore building a hotel at the club does not really effect my business. If I thought opening a hotel at the ground was a good idea I would argue its case - really !

Up the City!

[At last? 0]

Sorry Milan not convinced.

I think a hotel will upset your trade and you are trying to argue against it for that very same reason.

No offence to your places (which I don''t know) but the city centre (ie not Dunston Hall, Sprowston Manor etc) is crying out for another decent hotel.

There is another new hotel being built by the river just by the old St Andrews car park. I doubt they would be building if they hadn''d done their homework.

I stand to be corrected of course but this is going to happen when not if.

[milan marcus 0]

At Last,

I am serious mate I have a lot of other investments and believe it or not I am a true avid supporter it is not an issue the competition from a hotel as I do not compete for city centre trade. If I was worried about my hotels I would not have disclosed them.

I am simply convinced that the club would make more money from a new stand not from an investment in a hotel and I am convinced because I have a real understanding of hotel economics. I don''t think we will lose money from a hotel it''s just that we will lose the extra income a new stand could generate which as I stated is far more than a hotel will generate. I hope I am proved wrong but I cannot get the figures to stack up.

Up the City!

[At last? 0]

OK

No offence lets just agree to differ.

But you can''t assume the club will sell all the infill seats every season in the future. If required, more seats will come on top of the GW or J stands.

I think the prudent option is a hotel. Look at the location, absolutely superb.

To be honest I don''t think you have much to worry about either as the city is booming at present.

I too have leisure interests just outside the city so good luck to you and me both.

I think we wil just have to trust the board to do the right thing.

[Bryan Gunn 0]

Marcus.

I take all your points and appreciate your inside knowledge. I too have spent many years working in Hotels (although not owning). I''m in 2 minds whether there is the demand for 5 star accomadation in Norwich. However, in Delia smith with have a unique advantage over other clubs with Hotels. Think about what those other clubs have to offer. Reading, lovely hotel, good links with M25 but who would really want to spend a night or a weekend in a top class hotel next to a motorway? Bolton, y bother staying there when you can go to Manchester? Same with West Ham, who wants to stay @ upton park when you have the pick of all the hotels in central London? Delia must entertain many affluent londeners @ her restaurant who would be willing to pay for top class hotel accomadation. If we retain premiership status when the hotel is in operation there will be many rich owners and fans visiting Carrow Road, Abramovich, Tai primeminister etc. All of whom would be interested in 5 star accomodation.

It is risky business and Norwich really have to do their homework. From a personal point of view I''d llike more seats, but I think a hotel would be financially viable and could be a successful joint venture or sale

[milan marcus 0]

Gunny,

See where you are coming from but lets say there are 10 teams who will stay with their guests at carrow road - even though I think most will stay at Dunston and Sprowston because of the leisure facilites . Those ten teams take lets say 30 rooms each i.e you still have not filled a hotel even on a peak date and that is for just 10 nights a year ! I think the prem thing is a red herring and the hotel should not account for this in it''s figures it''s to risky. I would love to see a 5 star hotel in Norwich but not at Carrow Road. As I have said I think long term we will make more money by investing in a new stand, provide the seats our fan base demand and increase the atmosphere of the ground.

P.S The trouble with delia''s london "guests" is that she will no doubt have to pay the bill so no income there!

Up the City!

[listen (formerly MG7) 0]

Does anybody have any update on this issue? I''ve been away for quite a while, and I''m wondering if anyone knows any more details about what''s happening?

[Camberwick Green<IMG src="http:new.pinkun.comforumsimagesline.gif"><BR>Breathe the pressure, Come play my game Ill test ya !!!<BR><A class=authorlink href="http:" target=_blank><A><BR> 0]

If and when a hotel is going to be built, why not add a casino to it?  To my knowledge there is no casino in Norwich or the surrounding area and with the imminent deregulation of gambling laws it would be almost like a license for printing money, especially considering the regeneration of the riverside.

I''m sure it could fit into the designs, we''re not talking Vegas-style casinos here, or tacky neon lights and it would generate cash all year round (as presumably Gala or someone would pay you an occupancy fee and a share of the cash rake)

 

[DumbleDelia is Magic 0]

[quote]If and when a hotel is going to be built, why not add a casino to it? To my knowledge there is no casino in Norwich or the surrounding area and with the imminent deregulation of gambling laws it woul...[/quote]

I thoroughly agree with you Camberwick.  Why not!  You''re right, Norwich doesn''t have a casino.  I think the nearest one is probably Yaremouth.  Anyway, it could generate a significant amount of money for the club