Waghorn - Why we can't get a center back

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Rick Waghorn has an interesting take on the centre back conundrum, and maybe why we haven''t signed Callum Davenport / Fitz Hall / A.N.Other on loan yet.  It seems that everyone in the Championship wants one.Click here for the full article.

[ZLF 271]

Nothing new there at all - there is no quality at centre back in theUK,  which is is why the likes of Higginbottom , who is distinctly average ends up at sunderland. 

No matter how much we moan about them Doc and Shax are up there with the best in this league,  not good enough for the prem,  nowhere near as dire as we make out but actually better than most of their peers 

Trying to find better is a costly and fruitless challenge - but that doesnt explain why we havent ensured we have sufficient full time cover - as dions legs wont survive 2 games a week for long;  he made mistakes when fresh - 40 mins into a Tuesday night game may see us struggling further . 

[nutty nigel 7,513]

I am sure Grant wants to improve our central defence options whether it''s through bringing in a right sided centre back for cover or one thats better than what we already have to play. Trouble is there doesn''t seem to be many options available to him.  Apparently he tried to get Shawcross but didn''t like the conditions set by Man.U. To be fair he probably wouldn''t have come here anyway because for a youngster out on loan being based near his home is probably a big factor.

I read a post on here at the weekend stating that only the club fail to see the need for a centreback. I don''t think thats true, I think that where the difference of opinion lies is in the ability of what we have now. I think maybe Grant sees Doherty/Dublin and Shackell/Murray as being far better players than a lot of posters on here. Have we missed out on players who are better than what we have now? Which ones should we have signed? The difference of opinion is probably just that the club don''t agree that just anybody is better.

If Doherty and Shackell were available right now I wouldn''t mind betting our Championship rivals would show more than a little interest. We may feel they are not good enough for us but I bet some of our rivals would be interested. The grass is always greener on the other side until you actually go there to find out!

 

 

[In Gunns Hands We Trust! 0]

There obviously isn''t any decent available CBs in Europe either. Were Granty scouts not scouring Europe for talent at the start of the summer. All we got was Dave the bench warmer (future Legend)!

[Citizen Journalist Foghorn 0]

Al;l the usual whinges and excuses from Waghorn....

"That''s the beast that is the Premiership - it consumes anything and everything that the Championship puts before it. "

 

A shame we waited til January to adopt this policy when we were in teh Premiership...  Cleverer thanh the rest?  Not then, not now.

[jetstream 0]

So what''s he''s basically saying is that the laws of supply and demand apply to football (wow! what an original observation)..and that NCFC are not prepared to pay the going rate.

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Well I thought it was interesting anyway.Miserable bunch of gets. [:)]

[Syteanric 1]

[quote]There obviously isn''t any decent available CBs in Europe either. Were Granty scouts not scouring Europe for talent at the start of the summer. All we got was Dave the bench warmer (future Legend)![/quote]

 

with the under 21''s european Championships and the Copa America having recently taken place surely we should of been souting these for 1 or 2 players the big clubs might of missed?

 How cheap would a Venezuelan Striker be? or a Teenage Columbian stopper?

did we miss the boat? who knows... either way id sooner see us give the kids a chance than take the plunge abroad.

 

jas :)

[Mello Yello 2,281]

Why wait till now and not the recent close-season, to attempt to recruit a decent Central Defender?

Because the club were prepared to see if we could ''make do'' with what we had.........maybe?

There aren''t that many half-decent available within our price/budget.......possibly?

Granty didn''t see a problem with the defence after last seasons "Bastion''s at the Back ''ne''er let nowt through'' Brigade!".......(and totally ignoring conceding the sh*tloads of goals against). No-one who understands football can be that myopic.......can they? 

Or, he''s got his hands tied, and been told by the purse-holder at Carra, to ''Ram It! As you''ve had yer pocket money and we need the surplus cash to fund other ''offa the field'' projects!".......Who knows?

 

[nutty nigel 7,513]

And it probably cost the bored [|-)] a few quid to persuade CJW [8-|] to come up with a story that made it look like other chumpionship clubs had been prepared to ''make do'' too [;)]

 

 

[BlyBlyBabes 0]

[quote user="nutty nigel"]

I am sure Grant wants to improve our central defence options whether it''s through bringing in a right sided centre back for cover or one thats better than what we already have to play. Trouble is there doesn''t seem to be many options available to him.  Apparently he tried to get Shawcross but didn''t like the conditions set by Man.U. To be fair he probably wouldn''t have come here anyway because for a youngster out on loan being based near his home is probably a big factor.

I read a post on here at the weekend stating that only the club fail to see the need for a centreback. I don''t think thats true, I think that where the difference of opinion lies is in the ability of what we have now. I think maybe Grant sees Doherty/Dublin and Shackell/Murray as being far better players than a lot of posters on here. Have we missed out on players who are better than what we have now? Which ones should we have signed? The difference of opinion is probably just that the club don''t agree that just anybody is better.

If Doherty and Shackell were available right now I wouldn''t mind betting our Championship rivals would show more than a little interest. We may feel they are not good enough for us but I bet some of our rivals would be interested. The grass is always greener on the other side until you actually go there to find out!

[/quote]

Nutty. There you go again. Defending the board in the face of it''s failings once more.

According to your analysis the board will not allocate sufficient funds to Peter for him to arrange for a central defender to improve our defence.

Then you say that there is nobody of superior quality available within our budget.

Where did we get, for example,  Duncan Forbes, Barry Butler, Dave Stringer, Dave Watson, Ian Butterworth, Spencer Prior, Malky Mackay, Andy Linighan, Steve Bruce, John Polston, Craig Flemming, Steve Walford etc..........???

All of them cost relatively little. All secured through scouts, managers and NCFC boards quietly and efficiently doing their work.

The world is now our oyster, we operate in the fifth richest league in the world and yet there is no centre half out there better than we have within our budget????????? Unless maybe they''ve set a Mickey Mouse budget. No, pull the other leg Nutty, it''s got bells on it.

Talk about tyiing the manager''s hands.......or is he preparing his own noose?

We''ll see soon enough.

OTBC

 

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[quote]

Where did we get, for example,  Duncan Forbes, Barry Butler, Dave Stringer, Dave Watson, Ian Butterworth, Spencer Prior, Malky Mackay, Andy Linighan, Steve Bruce, John Polston, Craig Flemming, Steve Walford etc..........???

All of them cost relatively little. All secured through scouts, managers and NCFC boards quietly and efficiently doing their work.[/quote]

None of them operated in the modern game of transfer fees for loan signings, suggestions of 2 million for defenders not much better than we have (Davenport), and massive wages.  Again you''ve taken your eye off the ball, it''s the wages that are the sticking point, not the transfer fees.  If Doherty or Shackell became available on the transfer market, I guarantee that another championship club would come in for them.  How many goalkeepers did we have last season ?  4 ?  If you don''t know who''s between the sticks week in week out, it''s difficult to build a rapport and feel confidence in the man behind you.   Not to mention the age old problem of the midfield going missing defensively / failing to cover the left side when Huckerby runs off at a tangent.  No wonder we conceded so many last season.  This season promises to be different already, it''s 2-1 to us or it''s 2-1 to them, close matches.  What we need to do is raise the tempo of games and bully the opposition off the ball.  Then you''ll start to see us win a run of matches with the players we have.

[BlyBlyBabes 0]

[quote user="blahblahblah"][quote]

Where did we get, for example,  Duncan Forbes, Barry Butler, Dave Stringer, Dave Watson, Ian Butterworth, Spencer Prior, Malky Mackay, Andy Linighan, Steve Bruce, John Polston, Craig Flemming, Steve Walford etc..........???

All of them cost relatively little. All secured through scouts, managers and NCFC boards quietly and efficiently doing their work.[/quote]

None of them operated in the modern game of transfer fees for loan signings, suggestions of 2 million for defenders not much better than we have (Davenport), and massive wages.  Again you''ve taken your eye off the ball, it''s the wages that are the sticking point, not the transfer fees.  If Doherty or Shackell became available on the transfer market, I guarantee that another championship club would come in for them.  How many goalkeepers did we have last season ?  4 ?  If you don''t know who''s between the sticks week in week out, it''s difficult to build a rapport and feel confidence in the man behind you.   Not to mention the age old problem of the midfield going missing defensively / failing to cover the left side when Huckerby runs off at a tangent.  No wonder we conceded so many last season.  This season promises to be different already, it''s 2-1 to us or it''s 2-1 to them, close matches.  What we need to do is raise the tempo of games and bully the opposition off the ball.  Then you''ll start to see us win a run of matches with the players we have.

[/quote]

Be truthful, Blah. Have you ever seen or heard even a little inkling of any other club being seriously interested in Doherty or Shackell??? No, I thought not. Must be those massive wages they''re on that scare them off.

Maybe you are watching the ball so much that you can''t see the broader picture. None of the players I mentioned were well known or in the massive wages/massive fees zone when we got them in. They were spotted by astute scouts and managers in the lower divisions or other club''s reserves - and brought in by clever boards.

It''s absolute tosh to claim that there are no better players than Doc/Shacks who would not cost the earth from a prem club whether loan/transfer. Absolute tosh. 

But, I concede you make a couple of fair points otherwise - especially about bullying the opposition off the ball and imposing our game on them.

OTBC

 

[nutty nigel 7,513]

[quote user="BlyBlyBabes"][

Where did we get, for example,  Duncan Forbes, Barry Butler, Dave Stringer, Dave Watson, Ian Butterworth, Spencer Prior, Malky Mackay, Andy Linighan, Steve Bruce, John Polston, Craig Flemming, Steve Walford etc..........???

All of them cost relatively little. All secured through scouts, managers and NCFC boards quietly and efficiently doing their work.

[/quote]

We got them from the same sort of places that we got Gary Doherty, Dion Dublin, Jason Shackell and Ian Murray.

Where in my post do I defend the bored[|-)] ffs. Did I even mention the bored[|-)]

I''m just not of the opinion that just anybody is better than we have now. What is it about the four players I have mentioned that you don''t like. Or have you actually seen any of them play?

England are on again tonight so there''ll be some football for you to talk about in the morning [:P]

 

[renegade tootsie 0]

Do you seriously believe that the big clubs ''miss'' people - they pick up 7 year olds in Australia with footballing potential for crying out loud!

Venezualan???  Language barrier, work permits, style of football....

The truth is centrebacks, like strikers are difficult to come by, thats why the cost serious cash if they are half decent.  The trick is to try and keep the pressure off them in the midfield.

[quote user="jas the barclay king"]

[quote]There obviously isn''t any decent available CBs in Europe either. Were Granty scouts not scouring Europe for talent at the start of the summer. All we got was Dave the bench warmer (future Legend)![/quote]

 

with the under 21''s european Championships and the Copa America having recently taken place surely we should of been souting these for 1 or 2 players the big clubs might of missed?

 How cheap would a Venezuelan Striker be? or a Teenage Columbian stopper?

did we miss the boat? who knows... either way id sooner see us give the kids a chance than take the plunge abroad.

 

jas :)

[/quote]

[renegade tootsie 0]

Do you seriously believe that the big clubs ''miss'' people - they pick up 7 year olds in Australia with footballing potential for crying out loud!

Venezualan???  Language barrier, work permits, style of football....

The truth is centrebacks, like strikers are difficult to come by, thats why the cost serious cash if they are half decent.  The trick is to try and keep the pressure off them in the midfield.

[Temp the Revelator 0]

[quote user="BlyBlyBabes"]

Be truthful, Blah. Have you ever seen or heard even a little inkling of any other club being seriously interested in Doherty or Shackell??? No, I thought not. Must be those massive wages they''re on that scare them off.

Maybe you are watching the ball so much that you can''t see the broader picture. None of the players I mentioned were well known or in the massive wages/massive fees zone when we got them in. They were spotted by astute scouts and managers in the lower divisions or other club''s reserves - and brought in by clever boards.

It''s absolute tosh to claim that there are no better players than Doc/Shacks who would not cost the earth from a prem club whether loan/transfer. Absolute tosh. 

But, I concede you make a couple of fair points otherwise - especially about bullying the opposition off the ball and imposing our game on them.

OTBC

 

[/quote]

This is a far too over-simplistic viewpoint for my liking.  Many players at Premiership clubs are now happier to stay in the reserves picking up their fat wedge than they are to go out on loan - and even if they do want to go out on loan, the club charges a ''loan fee'' - allegedly £500k for Shawcross, then factor in his Premiership level wages (see other thread about average wages) and you are talking getting on for £1m for a player on loan for the season.  The other alternative is buying players, but £2m for Higginbottom?  Do me a favour!

[YellowIce 0]

The problem is not with our club, it is with football in general.

The FA want to keep the Premier League the best league in the World. And why wouldnt they it is a platform for the best players in the world. The roughly £40 million a season that is pumped into the premier league clubs means that they are able to financially sustain giant squads, sumthing that championships can no lorger reallistically sustain.

They opt to keep these large squads "in case". "In case" they make the champions league, "in case" they make Europe, "in case" one of there distant sqaud turns into a supersatr in reserve games and "in cas" there first 26 players get killed in a plane crash.

So what is the answer. . . .squad caps by the FA meaning that players with potential and lesser known squad players are split through the leagues. BUT why should English teams suffer under squad caps when there European counterparts who they compete against in such financially rewarding competitions dont. They shouldnt. . . so now its a fifa issue.

We were the only country in the world who really cares about their second divsion. . . . . untill that £96million "bridge the gap payment" was made all the lower leagues put together out of the premiership 2.4billion budget.

So Premiership teams do not look to loan out players to the lower leagues except on rare occasions and when they do they do not want to do it without finacial rewards. . . and why should they.

And when they do NCFC is not at the top of the pecking order, in our own corner of the country away from the eyes of managers (i.e shawcross, but i believe this is a weak argument). But players want to go to clubs that continue to make pushes for promotion not teams that are going backwards . . . which is arguably what norwich have been doing for the last 3 years.

The answer is a good youth system and unknown buys i fear for a club like ours, but i do believe that peter grant is the man to take us forward and we must get behind the team not criticise the players we have got.

However our board need to compete financially or i cant see a change. . . .

[macdougalls perm 0]

[quote user="nutty nigel"]

England are on again tonight so there''ll be some football for you to talk about in the morning [:P]

[/quote]

Touche, lol![:)]