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yellow hammer

Chickens come home to roost

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I have to say that i agree with the point above re outside investment. This is my biggest gripe at present. I think the board are all doing their best and I certainly don''t share some of the more sinister theories out there that they are in it to make money for themselves or anything like that. I do however think that we still have a small time mentality and I also think that the club needs to realise that football has moved on and that its not a level playing field and outside investment is what makes the difference these days. Delia may think that by dissing all the new foreign ownership and saying she''ll never sell up she is saying what we want to hear and maybe 3 or 4 years ago it was. However, times have changed and I think that now we should be actively seeking investment not just reacting if someone happens to come along. otherwise I can just see us getting left behind.

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Clearly the appointment of the manager is the boards responsibility and my biggest disappointment/criticism of the current board is that they took too long to remove Worthy. 

Appointing Grant was not to everyones taste, but no manager would be, but for me it is still too soon to assess how effective or successful an appointment he will be.   He came with strong recommendations, the support of a footballing non board member and had as good a credential as anyof his rivals for the job.  For me, this is his crunch year,  and we need signs of impovement over the next few months or the question about replacement will be there for the board to answer again.  That question does not needed answering yet.   

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[quote user="Buckethead"]Bumped.Another transfer window slammed shut in our faces.Different manager, same Board.[/quote]Could you enlighten us at to your point, please?The success or otherwise of this or any other transfer window can be determined by the team''s up or down-turn in league position for the remainder of the years. Can you argue with that? Or is it all, as some people seem to think, about the numbers on an imaginary balance sheet about which none of us really know anything?

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[quote user="Buckethead"]Bumped.Another transfer window slammed shut in our faces.Different manager, same Board.[/quote]certainly seems that way bucket - same old, same old...only our failing board remains the same,,,and so the slow decline continues,,,and the gambles continue...

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[quote user="Alan_Grey"][quote user="Buckethead"]Bumped.Another transfer window slammed shut in our faces.Different manager, same Board.[/quote]Could you enlighten us at to your point, please?The success or otherwise of this or any other transfer window can be determined by the team''s up or down-turn in league position for the remainder of the years. Can you argue with that? Or is it all, as some people seem to think, about the numbers on an imaginary balance sheet about which none of us really know anything?[/quote]Alan. You joined this board on 17th Jan 2006 I suggest you cast your mind back or use the search function to check what the hot topics were then or Summer 2006, or Jan 2007, or summer 2007, or Jan 2008, or summer 2008 and compare the results to the next in the transfer window series:- Jan 2009.When you''ve done that there will be no need for me to explain.

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That''s very patronising - and fallacious. The "hot topics" of the day are simply generalisations of the opinions of a group of posters on this board.Perhaps instead of one line soundbites summarising ill-conceived conclusions, you can give us an actual argument of an actual viewpoint or position?By the way: saying "it''s obvious" is not anything approaching an argument.

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[quote user="Badger"]Well there''s a shock - some people aren''t happy! I never saw that one coming.[/quote]Hey Badger.Let''s look at what I say again then.January 2006, Summer 2006, or Jan 2007, or summer 2007, or Jan 2008, or summer 2008I can go back further if you want.Now please highlight which of those low budget transfer windows mentioned above produced a marked improvement in our team.Then having done so explain why I should feel confident about Gunny being forced to comply with the boards ''net profit'' strategy yet again during a transfer window at this critical stage in the Clubs history?They may have identified some gems this time around and I really hope so but history proves that we tend to get what we pay for and that is not down to the manager as the same results have been produced over our last three managers when this strategy has been used.

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[quote]Now please highlight which of those low budget transfer windows mentioned above produced a marked improvement in our team.[/quote]How on earth did we manage in the 90s with all those players we found for tuppence and sold on for millions ?Transfer profits are nothing new - you don''t lose games because of them.  You certainly can''t balance the books without them in the Championship.

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[quote user="Buckethead"][quote user="Badger"]Well there''s a shock - some people aren''t happy! I never saw that one coming.[/quote]Hey Badger.Let''s look at what I say again then.January 2006, Summer 2006, or Jan 2007, or summer 2007, or Jan 2008, or summer 2008I can go back further if you want.Now please highlight which of those low budget transfer windows mentioned above produced a marked improvement in our team.Then having done so explain why I should feel confident about Gunny being forced to comply with the boards ''net profit'' strategy yet again during a transfer window at this critical stage in the Clubs history?They may have identified some gems this time around and I really hope so but history proves that we tend to get what we pay for and that is not down to the manager as the same results have been produced over our last three managers when this strategy has been used.[/quote]We can both go back a lot further - that''s the point. We have never been a rich club, we have always survived on sales and a profit in the transfer market. I know the current board have been less successful but the policy is not a new one. It is fundamental to the economics of football outside the premier league.

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[quote user="blahblahblah"][quote]Now please highlight which of those low budget transfer windows mentioned above produced a marked improvement in our team.[/quote]

How on earth did we manage in the 90s with all those players we found for tuppence and sold on for millions ?

Transfer profits are nothing new - you don''t lose games because of them.  You certainly can''t balance the books without them in the Championship.
[/quote]

In order to make a profit on a player you need to own them not loan them...  The days of picking up bargains and selling them on are what we need to go back to. 

This MacDonald kid is a step in the right direction but he is the exception that proves the rule.

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[quote user="Dions Lightsaber"]

In order to make a profit on a player you need to own them not loan them...  The days of picking up bargains and selling them on are what we need to go back to. 

This MacDonald kid is a step in the right direction but he is the exception that proves the rule.

[/quote]This is a fair point but there are important differences:1. Players wages are so high today that this is harder than it used to be. A decent player from the lower leagues will demand a contract worth several hundred thousand pounds.2. Many Premier league teams look abroad for their bargains now, not to the Championship. I''d be interested if anyone who follows these things had some statistics, but not that many players seem to move up like they used to as the gap in quality is so much bigger. In the 80s and 90s, teams from the old second division often did quite well after promotion.3. Acadamies, and their restrictive rules, have made it harder for clubs like Norwich to find and develop talent.

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Name another Championship club that has sold £20 million worth of players in three years?[quote user="blahblahblah"][quote]Now please highlight which of those low budget transfer windows mentioned above produced a marked improvement in our team.[/quote]How on earth did we manage in the 90s with all those players we found for tuppence and sold on for millions ?Transfer profits are nothing new - you don''t lose games because of them.  You certainly can''t balance the books without them in the Championship.[/quote]

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[quote user="Alan_Grey"]That''s very patronising - and fallacious. The "hot topics" of the day are simply generalisations of the opinions of a group of posters on this board.Perhaps instead of one line soundbites summarising ill-conceived conclusions, you can give us an actual argument of an actual viewpoint or position?By the way: saying "it''s obvious" is not anything approaching an argument.[/quote]

  I suggest before challenging me to produce an argument you do some homework, I think I have a reasonably good history of being able to provide argument on this board, and certainly feel no need to be made to ''prove myself'' to anyone. I would also claim to be in what is in all honesty quite a small group of Pink ''Un posters who are regularly able to, and do so singularly for the further procreation of a good debate  provide evidence and facts to back up such argument or deconstruct the argument of another poster, you''ll never find a petty unsubstantiated argument from me. If I''m wrong I''ll concede it and apologise if neccesary. If I''m correct I will not crow. If I''m unsure there''ll always be a caveat to that effect in my post. If a poster gets silly with me I watch them, follow them and bite them hard.Simple rules which serve me well.

Now anyway let''s get back to topic eh?  Have you guessed what the common theme is yet amongst all those end of transfer window posts I''ve guided you to? a) Joy at the number and quality of permanent signings we made?b) Concern at the number of perms going out and loans coming in?If you are still stuck I''ve provided some clues as to where to look in my earlier post.[:P] 

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[quote user="renegade tootsie"]Name another Championship club that has sold £20 million worth of players in three years?[quote user="blahblahblah"][quote]Now please highlight which of those low budget transfer windows mentioned above produced a marked improvement in our team.[/quote]How on earth did we manage in the 90s with all those players we found for tuppence and sold on for millions ?Transfer profits are nothing new - you don''t lose games because of them.  You certainly can''t balance the books without them in the Championship.[/quote][/quote]Since you ask RT:Southampton.But of course the big difference is that as a club we all know Southampton have been chronically mismanaged and wasted that money don''t we because that''s what we get told by Doomy and on this board whereas us, well we''ve been erm....erm.....erm........ ''not mismanaged''?That''s the difference between us and Southampton you see, one club was mismanaged at Boardroom level selling players to build things and the other as I say ''not mismanaged'' it''s the only rational explanation.[8-)][8-)]

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[quote user="Buckethead"]  I suggest before challenging me to produce an argument you do some homework, I think I have a reasonably good history of being able to provide argument on this board, and certainly feel no need to be made to ''prove myself'' to anyone.[/quote]Wait... what? Don''t tell me to give an argument, because I''ve done well at giving arguments in the past? How is this at all relevant, or indeed, logical?[quote user="Buckethead"] I would also claim to be in what is in all honesty quite a small group of Pink ''Un posters who are regularly able to, and do so singularly for the further procreation of a good debate  provide evidence and facts to back up such argument or deconstruct the argument of another poster, you''ll never find a petty unsubstantiated argument from me.[/quote]I have no idea of your posting history and could not care less! Don''t harp on about having provided arguments and facts in the past, when in this case you haven''t provided an argument and only hinted at a viewpoint through oft-repeated, soundbite-esque rhetoric :)[quote user="Buckethead"] If a poster gets silly with me I watch them, follow them and bite them hard.[/quote]Gosh, well I''m wetting myself. Or am I?[quote user="Buckethead"]a) Joy at the number and quality of permanent signings we made?b) Concern at the number of perms going out and loans coming in?[/quote]Why are you using this (what''s called a false dichotomy, by the way, a type of logical fallacy) to hint at your views instead of just stating them?I''m sorry to be so off topic but I''m just trying to force us to get TO a topic!

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[quote user="Alan_Grey"][quote user="Buckethead"]  I suggest before challenging me to produce an argument you do some homework, I think I have a reasonably good history of being able to provide argument on this board, and certainly feel no need to be made to ''prove myself'' to anyone.[/quote][quote user="Alan_Grey"]Wait... what? Don''t tell me to give an argument, because I''ve done well at giving arguments in the past? How is this at all relevant, or indeed, logical?[/quote]It is both logical and relevant because you accuse me of being fallacious yet you have so obviously failed to read this thread or any of the other threads I have mentioned generally and indirectly within the earlier post I made. Had you made the effort before trying to get clever you would have seen I have quite simply and quite minimalistically drawn attention to the fact that we have suffered a series of disappointing transfer windows as the core squad has been replaced by an ever increasing number of loan players. I illustrate a gradual decline over a lengthy period and show you where to look for examples.  Have a look you''ll find quite a few posts expressing concern, I simply feel it would be in breach of board etiquette to bump one hundred posts in which quite a large number of people express concerns about the influs of loan players at the expense of permanent signings. Hardly fallacious when you can provide hundreds of posts as evidence that there is great concern about the number of loan players is it?[quote user="Buckethead"] I would also claim to be in what is in all honesty quite a small group of Pink ''Un posters who are regularly able to, and do so singularly for the further procreation of a good debate  provide evidence and facts to back up such argument or deconstruct the argument of another poster, you''ll never find a petty unsubstantiated argument from me.[/quote][quote user="Alan_Grey"]I have no idea of your posting history and could not care less! Don''t harp on about having provided arguments and facts in the past, when in this case you haven''t provided an argument and only hinted at a viewpoint through oft-repeated, soundbite-esque rhetoric [/quote]1) If you have no idea then I suggest you certainly do not make such sweeping allegations about myself or the merits of any argument I might make. Fallacious? Pah!I feel that when you sat down with the last Harry Potter book you started reading on page 300 and summarised it thus. ''The middle was quite good, the end was great but the beginning was crap''.2) So you do accept the concerns are ''oft repeated'' then? I guess that''s a start.[quote user="Buckethead"] If a poster gets silly with me I watch them, follow them and bite them hard.[/quote][quote user="Alan_Grey"]Gosh, well I''m wetting myself. Or am I?[/quote]Grow up.[quote user="Buckethead"]a) Joy at the number and quality of permanent signings we made?b) Concern at the number of perms going out and loans coming in?[/quote][quote user="Alan_Grey"]Why are you using this what''s called a false dichotomy, by the way, a type of logical fallacy to hint at your views instead of just stating them?[/quote]Quite correct I am trying to put words into your mouth. Since you were either unable or unwilling to even see let alone accept the extent of concern displayed on this board over a number of years I thought I''d try and help you out and make it easier for you. It''s all on here Alan years and years of people worrying about the future of this club as one player after another walks out the door.[quote user="Alan_Grey"]I''m sorry to be so off topic but I''m just trying to force us to get TO a topic![/quote]I''m beginning to think you''re just here for the windup Alan. Might I

ask of all the topics on the front page of the site what drew your

attention to this one? Anything in particular you want to discuss about

the way each transfer window seems to end with a net reduction in

permanent players and/or a net increase in loan players?[/quote]

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[quote user="Buckethead"]It is both logical and relevant because you accuse me of being

fallacious yet you have so obviously failed to read this thread or any

of the other threads I have mentioned generally and indirectly within

the earlier post I made. Had you made the effort before trying to get

clever you would have seen I have quite simply and quite

minimalistically drawn attention to the fact that we have suffered a

series of disappointing transfer windows as the core squad has been

replaced by an ever increasing number of loan players. I illustrate a

gradual decline over a lengthy period and show you where to look for

examples.  Have a look you''ll find quite a few posts expressing

concern, I simply feel it would be in breach of board etiquette to bump

one hundred posts in which quite a large number of people express

concerns about the influs of loan players at the expense of permanent

signings. Hardly fallacious when you can provide hundreds of posts as

evidence that there is great concern about the number of loan players

is it?[/quote]I''ve read most of those threads, over the years. So naturally I have a gauge of the variety of opinions of the posters on here. I also have my own opinions on the matter. Would it surprise you to know that by and large I agree with your viewpoint? I always have done. I never argued otherwise, I''m trying to get to the core of why people insist of posting turgid, attention seeking rhetoric instead of just saying what they mean.The fellacious part was your simplistic presentation of zeitgeist as fact.[quote user="Buckethead"]1) If you have no idea then I suggest you certainly do not make such

sweeping allegations about myself or the merits of any argument I might

make. Fallacious? Pah!I feel that when you sat down with the last

Harry Potter book you started reading on page 300 and summarised it

thus. ''The middle was quite good, the end was great but the beginning

was crap''.[/quote]What have I accused you of doing? I think I accused you of making a bit of a rubbish post, and that''s self evident to me if not anyone else!And what''s the rest of that paragraph about? You seem to be accusing me of judging you based on a limited sample of your posts and then summarising MY personality based on mine?[quote user="Buckethead"]Grow up.[/quote]I think that the snippet I originally replied to here was a little internet hard man act and perfectly ripe for parody! :D[quote user="Buckethead"]Quite correct I am trying to put words into your mouth. Since you were

either unable or unwilling to even see let alone accept the extent of

concern displayed on this board over a number of years I thought I''d

try and help you out and make it easier for you. It''s all on here Alan

years and years of people worrying about the future of this club as one

player after another walks out the door.[/quote]As above, at no point have I expressed an opinion on this matter and in fact I agree, by and large.[quote user="Buckethead"]I''m beginning to think you''re just here for the windup Alan. Might I

ask of all the topics on the front page of the site what drew your

attention to this one? Anything in particular you want to discuss about

the way each transfer window seems to end with a net reduction in

permanent players and/or a net increase in loan players?[/quote]I assure you I''m not here on a wind up, and to prove it I''m not going to let people like you goad me into replying any more :) i''m big enough to admit that talking to a brick wall is a mistake and from now on I''ll limit myself to posts which make a contribution to the board. The contribution I was TRYING to make, if you''re interested, was that the soapboxing/shouting/sound biting/LOOK AT ME/non-contributory/repetitive posting of some of those of US who hold negative views of the running of the football club, does in now way further the argument.Clearly I''m guilty of not talking plainly enough. Ironic, right?

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