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a1canary

Our defending at Hull - why our CBs are USELESS...

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_________G    O    A    L________---DW-----DM--SE--IM-------------------------------------GD-------------------------JS-------------------------RG-----------------------------------------Right, bare with me here - i haven''t worked out how to put screen shots in posts so i''ve had to improvise!This is our positioning for Hull''s second goal - i paused it on the Virgin Media highlights. 1. DW- Dean Windass, collects a long ball and gets to the byline where he sends in a cross. It''s a high cross to the far post, and this is the point at which the action is frozen. 2. Marshall is correctly positioned on his near post. SE - Stuart Elliot has made a near post run but the ball passes over him.3. Evenso, no-one has picked up Elliot''s run. He has got past Shackell who seems well behind the action while Murray AND Doherty have belatedly been drawn towards Elliot''s run.4. The ball sails over both Murray and Doherty and lands in acres of space for Garcia (RG) to run on to and plant in the net.Now it looks like Murray is the man who should have stayed with Garcia while the Doc should have had Elliott. In the end, neither had either. However, if Doherty or Shackell had a bit of nous about them, they would have made sure someone - Murray in this case - was on Garcia who appeared off the channel. THIS is what marshalling, commanding, cajoling the defence is all about and i feel absolutely certain that a Mackay or even a Dublin type player would not have allowed the goal to happen. Until we have a commanding centre back who has  AWARENESS  we will keep conceding silly goals. This screen shot is yet more evidence of our defence being all over the place and not having a clue about what''s going on around it. We had four players on their three in this shot and they were all out foxed. Murray says he''s not too keen on playing full back - i only hope Grant pulls his finger out and either puts Murray in the middle to test his mettle or gets us a DECENT CENTRE BACK or we can forget this season right now. Had enough of it!

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Jason was really the one at fault here. Instead of jockeying Windass to the by line and stopping any cross there, he went to ground early and Windass being the wily old pro he is just moved out a bit before going forward to make the fateful cross. That goal was an embarrassment!

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It looks to me like Shax is caught well out of position, and Murray looks like he was drawn to his more natural position - he said in his interview something along the lines of - I am at my best in central positions, I am not comfortable at full back but will play there if asked.

Thats what you get for playing players out of position Peter Grant.

 

As for the central defenders....  Yes we need a new player to lead and organise the defense.

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[quote user="a1canary"]_________G    O    A    L________
---DW-----DM--SE--IM-------------
------------------------GD--------------
-----------JS-------------------------RG
-----------------------------------------

Right, bare with me here - i haven''t worked out how to put screen shots in posts so i''ve had to improvise!
This is our positioning for Hull''s second goal - i paused it on the Virgin Media highlights.
1. DW- Dean Windass, collects a long ball and gets to the byline where he sends in a cross. It''s a high cross to the far post, and this is the point at which the action is frozen.
2. Marshall is correctly positioned on his near post. SE - Stuart Elliot has made a near post run but the ball passes over him.
3. Evenso, no-one has picked up Elliot''s run. He has got past Shackell who seems well behind the action while Murray AND Doherty have belatedly been drawn towards Elliot''s run.
4. The ball sails over both Murray and Doherty and lands in acres of space for Garcia (RG) to run on to and plant in the net.

Now it looks like Murray is the man who should have stayed with Garcia while the Doc should have had Elliott. In the end, neither had either. However, if Doherty or Shackell had a bit of nous about them, they would have made sure someone - Murray in this case - was on Garcia who appeared off the channel. THIS is what marshalling, commanding, cajoling the defence is all about and i feel absolutely certain that a Mackay or even a Dublin type player would not have allowed the goal to happen. Until we have a commanding centre back who has  AWARENESS  we will keep conceding silly goals. This screen shot is yet more evidence of our defence being all over the place and not having a clue about what''s going on around it. We had four players on their three in this shot and they were all out foxed. Murray says he''s not too keen on playing full back - i only hope Grant pulls his finger out and either puts Murray in the middle to test his mettle or gets us a DECENT CENTRE BACK or we can forget this season right now. Had enough of it!
[/quote]

 

Having seen this only on the Virgin brief clip I have an observation as a former goalkeeper.  Marshall isn''t really covering his near post (he''s left a huge gap) and he''s going towards Windass, far too much towards him (my opinion).  He has a player on the man.  If he had stayed closer to his line he might have had a chance of blocking Garcia''s shot once he had followed the cross.  Too far out of goal for anything meaningful I would say.

If that had been me I would have said I was partially at fault here.  It is very easy to be critical of decisions taken in milliseconds but I think I would have admitted, at least, that my positioning could have been better.  Where the keeper was at that time also means he has no chance of even getting a touch on the cross.

Not intended as a criticism because I am sure Marshall is a fine keeper.  These things happen.  But, to me, he was in No Man''s Land when that ball was struck.  Just a personal observation.

 

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For the first Hull goal isn''t there a player at least 2-3 yards off-side standing half-way between Marshall and the next defender? I''m sure that must have had some effect on Marshall for the goal.2nd goal, they all went to cover the line and left the player free, the initial issue is that Doc has to make a challenge well outside the box because no NCFC midfielders are there to do it. After that it goes pear shaped quite quickly but I think the scored should have been marked by Shax better.

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Why are you not a manager with such great thoughts??? Should man utd get rid of ferdinand and vidic or should terry be dropped because we can all see what poor defending we have seen with them recently but hay we are norwich and when we see a goal scored we stick the boot in again.What do you think will happen at sunderland after last night defeding the fans will back them 100% .When will we understand the game is 11 aside and until we have all the team defending and attacking as a unit we will like many in this league struggle from time to time.I think hull beat wigan????  not a bad side then.

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Having only seen the goals on the champs one was a break away where shax didnt seem to get back but as usual the midfield got sucked too deep into the penalty box,  instead of marking the zone just outside, leaving a free shot;  this is a systematic problem that the team has faced for 3 years,  simnply defending too deep;  correct for the back 4 in this instance but not rusty, for example, who ends up between murray and the CB marking nowt, with 4 other defenders in a line,  when if he had stop his run at the 18yd line he would have prevented a shot.  We didnt need 5 players on a 12 yard line - 4 place a second line  was required.

The second doc was beaten,  shax was horrendously out of position and then worse still indecisive while Murray then go sucked in when do was covering leaving the incoming far post runner free to score,  again if he had held a deeper position the goal would have been far harder to score and probably prevented.

The goals came from poor choices mainly from non centre backs,  positional sense from the supporting defenders gave the opponents space to do as they wanted and score.   

These goals are classic examples of the cbs getting the blame when their positioning overall was correct but other players rushed headling towards the goal without thinking whether its the right place to be.

This is training ground stuff,  that the coaches are failing to address with experienced pros who should know and do better.

Blame where blame is due - midfield in this case...   

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[quote user="mike"]Why are you not a manager with such great thoughts??? Should man utd get rid of ferdinand and vidic or should terry be dropped because we can all see what poor defending we have seen with them recently but hay we are norwich and when we see a goal scored we stick the boot in again.What do you think will happen at sunderland after last night defeding the fans will back them 100% .When will we understand the game is 11 aside and until we have all the team defending and attacking as a unit we will like many in this league struggle from time to time.I think hull beat wigan????  not a bad side then.[/quote]

The point is this has been going on for two years now, the only constant is the Doc/Shax central Partnership that looks shakey every time they play together.

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I''m looking at the second goal here and I agree ZLF that Garcia should have been Murray''s responsibility rather than the CBs and he''s got drawn in to the centre. I think it is one or even both of the centre back''s role to provide the communication and to have the awareness to communicate what is going on. I think that JS and GD have some good defensive capabilities but NEITHER have the character or personality to command the back four and keep them in line. Flem and Malky both did this whereas JS and GD defend individually and seem to take little responsibility for their full backs or the defensive duties of their midfielders. If i ask you to recall Malky in action for us, what''s the image that comes to your mind? I think for most people, as well as his goals, they see him pointing, shouting, looking around him and overall being in charge. When do you see that from Shax or the Doc? We''re told that Murray was captain at Hibs so i hope this means he''s a commanding type and can pick up Malky''s mantle.

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If Murray is a left sided player, doesn''t that put him at odds with Shack also being left sided? I''m assuming the captain is here to stay and that Doc is the one to be dropped. Either way, we desperately need someone with more composure than Doc.We really need Brellier to get his legs on because one of his qualities is covering those awkward inside channels that sucks full backs in or draws centre backs out of position. That way he''ll allow defence and midfield to keep their positions a bit better.The shape will come in time - just as long as we don''t panic. Unfortunately while Doc and Shack look shakey that might be a long way off...

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Why are posters so obsessed with our defence and trying to find ways of laying ther blame at certain players doors. If we analyze every goal conceded as far back as when we lose possession we will eventually find someone to blame but I promise you it won''t be the player we are looking to blame anymore than any other player.

In truth this season we have conceded 3 goals in 3 games. So far this season the facts don''t warrant the constant criticism of our defence. Conceding an average of one goal per game is good enough to win this league. Sunderland conceded 47 last season, Derby 46 and Birmingham 42. Tightening our defence still further will not guarantee success, the meanest defence last season was Stoke who conceded 41 and finished outside of the play off places.

I would suggest that it''s goals scored that has been our down fall so far this season. An average of scoring 1 goal per game is certainly not good enough to win this league. Only Leeds United scored as few as 46 goals last season.

Whilst I agree that 3 games is too early to make season long predictions I do think this thread is a bit premature but then why let the facts get in the way of a good old fashioned witch hunt!

 

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[quote user="nutty nigel"]

Why are posters so obsessed with our defence and trying to find ways of laying ther blame at certain players doors. If we analyze every goal conceded as far back as when we lose possession we will eventually find someone to blame but I promise you it won''t be the player we are looking to blame anymore than any other player.

In truth this season we have conceded 3 goals in 3 games. So far this season the facts don''t warrant the constant criticism of our defence. Conceding an average of one goal per game is good enough to win this league. Sunderland conceded 47 last season, Derby 46 and Birmingham 42. Tightening our defence still further will not guarantee success, the meanest defence last season was Stoke who conceded 41 and finished outside of the play off places.

I would suggest that it''s goals scored that has been our down fall so far this season. An average of scoring 1 goal per game is certainly not good enough to win this league. Only Leeds United scored as few as 46 goals last season.

Whilst I agree that 3 games is too early to make season long predictions I do think this thread is a bit premature but then why let the facts get in the way of a good old fashioned witch hunt!

 

[/quote]

lets see how long it lasts eh nutty, I have seen what I beleive to be a substandard defense, in the same way I saw what I beleived to be substandard management a couple of years back. If our defense continues to play as they have done these first few games, goals will be conceded at a high rate IMO.

AND its all too late to do anything about it when the transfer window slams shut. 

Lets see who is right and lets hope it is you Nutty.... cos if you aren''t thats another season down the sh*tter.

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CJF - Why do you continually miss the point I am making or choose to ignore it. At no point have I ever said we don''t need to strengthen our defence. And I have said on too many occasions to list that we need more cover in defensive positions. But surely even you and a1 must be able to see how many changes have been made to our side since last season, so surely this season is a clean slate. So far this season we have done ok defensively, if you are right and we have been lucky then we are in for quite a few hidings very soon.

Conceding one goal per game is acceptable surely? But I''ll tell you this - scoring one goal per game isn''t! And I don''t hear claims that we have been unlucky or that we have missed chances. No, one goal per game is a proper return for the chances we have created. The only saving grace in all this is that while we have only been scoring one goal per game our most creative player has been injured. Hopefully the return of Huckerby and the return to fitness of Fotheringham and Smith will result in more chances being created and more goals being scored.

Now you and a1 seem to be of the opinion that replacing one centreback will put all of this right. I guess you could be right but I don''t see it. But what I do see is that if we don''t start creating more chances and scoring more than one goal per game  it will be worse than another season down the sh*tter - it will mean certain relegation.

 

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Come on Nutty - i take offence to that. You know i''m not one for witch hunts and hysteria and the like. I''m just using this particular goal at Hull as an example of our shoddy defending. And it IS shoddy. I''m using a freeze screen picture so it''s all fact. I don''t really appreciate the insinuation that i''m making things up!Contrary to your belief, i''m not conducting a witch hunt, i''m just running a little personal crusade on this message board to get us a defence that is worthy of a top 2 championship side. (Yes i know it will have zero impact on Grant but it''s fun to try). And yes, top 2. I do think if we had a defence somewhere resembling that we had in our title season, with the rest of the squad and fewer injuries, we could challenge for auto promotion. That''s why i''m so frustrated with the situation at the moment. Our defence isn''t that bad but i believe we need one or two large bossy, commanding centre backs with defensive experience and excellent defensive awareness. We simply don''t have that at the moment.Now, where''s the witch hunt and lack of fact in any of that?

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But a1 -  if there were no mistakes then each game would finish 0-0 and nobody would go watch games anymore. You can trace every goal back to a mistake somewhere. It''s like the old "tree of causes" in that often a single mistake isn''t enough to cost a goal but a combination of events surrounding that mistake meant a goal was conceded. Hulls first goal was a good quick direct break and the contributing factor was that Windass was too old and slow to get into the box quick enough so he was in the right place at the right time when the ball was pulled back. It was a good finish and he was probably the only player in their side with the vision to score that goal. Our goal was similar in that after a poor defensive header from Hull the ball was returned forward and flicked on to Dublin who scored a great goal from outside the box and he was probably the only player in our side with the vision to score the goal.

So two good finishes from two wily old campaigners and it''s 1-1 and heading for a draw when we make mistakes that cost a goal. The goal you are referring to came because of a series of mistakes I guess. The way I see it Doherty wins a header but mistake #1 is he doesn''t get it far enough clear, then the ball is played into the box for Windass who isn''t really dangerous because Shackell is correctly steering him away from goal, but then for some reason Shackell goes to ground allowing Windass to get in a position to cross the ball (mistake #2) and then for mistake #3 Murray has been drawn towards the play allowing Garcia to be unmarked as Windass''s clever cross finds him. Three defensive errors resulted in a goal but surely the crucial one was Shackell going to ground.

What I find so hard to accept is the idea that if we replace Doherty all our defensive problems will disappear and we will suddenly score more goals too. Howabout you analyse each and every goal we have conceded this season and then tell me honestly on here which ones are down to The Doc and why [;)]

 

 

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I still fail to see how it is the pairing that is the problem.   Last season non Doc and Shax partnerships were as common as the one we have this season and the rate of goals conceeded remained the same,  the previous season it was one of them with Flem, and Davenport.    This suggests its less about the players and something else is driving it.

For me we continue to defend too deeply and all players have a tendency to run headling for the goal rather than tracking a player - eg rusty for the first goal (not blaming him, using it as an example of where the defending is going wrong).  As with when worthy was in charge it is a coaching issue that Grant is apparently doing nothing about (apparently because I see no improvement on match days).So why would changing the personnel   again improve it.

I agree that communication needs to be better but for me our defence is encouraged to deliver what the manager wants but that seems to be fundamentally flawed.

As far as a goal a game is concerned I know that Charlton have a target of less than 50 league goals conceeded as their target,  and less than 2 goals a game scored,  which Pardew feels will secure them promotion.  So far our defence is equalling that,  what more can we expect?    Players, even more so than refs, make hundreds of mistakes a game,  no one criticises midfielders for not tackling or missed passes nor Cureton for a lack of impact;  likewise doc and shacks will get beaten for pace, in the air, turned in every game this season - as will every defender,  it doesnt mean they need replacing.  

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I understand what a1 was saying.  He was just analysising one goal, but it is the overall performance of the defense, and the goals are just typical examples.  I agree with whoever said, one centre back and no injuries and we can get automatic, I really do.  But the recent performances for me in defense are concerning.  It is just seems very disorganised, and doesnt give a great deal of confidence to the team.  A strong and loud centre back would encourage the rest to push up, and push out, and offer competition, as at the moment, what happens if one of them struggles with form or gets injured?

I understand the point about 1 goal a game and that, but I dont really rate southampton, as they have sold a premier league defense, hull arent great, but barnet and rochdale???  this wasnt a B-Team we put out, that was the first team, and they have conceded 3goals to lower league opposition!   We need these 1 goal a game averages, for loses at visits to charlton, watford, west brom.  So we have to not concede so many to the likes of hull.

 

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[quote user="gissing canary"]

I understand what a1 was saying.  He was just analysising one goal, but it is the overall performance of the defense, and the goals are just typical examples.  I agree with whoever said, one centre back and no injuries and we can get automatic, I really do.  But the recent performances for me in defense are concerning.  It is just seems very disorganised, and doesnt give a great deal of confidence to the team.  A strong and loud centre back would encourage the rest to push up, and push out, and offer competition, as at the moment, what happens if one of them struggles with form or gets injured?

I understand the point about 1 goal a game and that, but I dont really rate southampton, as they have sold a premier league defense, hull arent great, but barnet and rochdale???  this wasnt a B-Team we put out, that was the first team, and they have conceded 3goals to lower league opposition!   We need these 1 goal a game averages, for loses at visits to charlton, watford, west brom.  So we have to not concede so many to the likes of hull.

 

[/quote]

Why are we going to endure heavy losses at Charlton, Watford and West Brom? That''s an incredible statement to make! Last season we lost 1-0 at Sunderland, Drew 0-0 at Derby and won 1-0 at both Birmingham and WBA. So away to argueably the best 4 sides in the division we got 7 points out of 12 and only conceded 1 goal. 2 of those games were Doc/Shax and two Dub/Shax. As ZLF rightly points out the pairings made little difference, in fact the only time a goal was conceded and the game the defence was least solid of the four was WBA and Dub/Shax.

 

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oops

Was going to say only two teams last season conceded less than a goal per game and they were Stoke 41  and Brum 42 but the three promoted teams conceded around a goal per game 42, 46 and 47 so after only three games, and although I agree it''s too early to make a judgement, we are on course defensively. Conceding goals at this rate would mean that quite possibly 65 goals scored, around 1.5 per game, would be enough to get promoted. After 3 games we have only scored 3 goals, and again it''s too early to make a judgement, but only Leeds scored as few as 46 goals last season. This belief that changing one centrehalf is the difference between getting promoted and not really does beggar belief.

 

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