Why so hard to find a defender?

[a1canary 0]

The saints match report says the following about their new central defensive signing Wayne Thomas:"Saints were stronger and sharper with new £1m signing Wayne Thomas adding a commanding presence to the back line as well as height and strength and pace. He was the voice the team have lacked, organising and cajoling and proving an intimidating presence in a strong spine to the side."This is exactly what we need. A voice at the back that the team lack. Why couldn''t we have got him? This shows it doesn''t have to be so hard to find someone. Sort it Peter.

[Syteanric 1]

[quote user="a1canary"]The saints match report says the following about their new central defensive signing Wayne Thomas:

"Saints were stronger and sharper with new £1m signing Wayne Thomas adding a commanding presence to the back line as well as height and strength and pace. He was the voice the team have lacked, organising and cajoling and proving an intimidating presence in a strong spine to the side."

This is exactly what we need. A voice at the back that the team lack. Why couldn''t we have got him? This shows it doesn''t have to be so hard to find someone. Sort it Peter.
[/quote]

I spoke to Neil Doncaster about this on Saturday, we are looking for a Right sided Central Defender. Davenport is Left Sided so we wont be getting him. he told me Ryan shawcross parents wanted him to join Stoke as its nearer to Manchester, we almost had him!

jas :)

[Shyster 0]

The answer is relatively simple, a1canary: The board will be saying to Grant: "Keep grinding out the results, Peter, however fortunate we''ve been in garnering those four points and we won''t have to spend again until the next window." 

[BlyBlyBabes 0]

[quote user="jas the barclay king"]

[quote user="a1canary"]The saints match report says the following about their new central defensive signing Wayne Thomas:

"Saints were stronger and sharper with new £1m signing Wayne Thomas adding a commanding presence to the back line as well as height and strength and pace. He was the voice the team have lacked, organising and cajoling and proving an intimidating presence in a strong spine to the side."

This is exactly what we need. A voice at the back that the team lack. Why couldn''t we have got him? This shows it doesn''t have to be so hard to find someone. Sort it Peter.
[/quote]

I spoke to Neil Doncaster about this on Saturday, we are looking for a Right sided Central Defender. Davenport is Left Sided so we wont be getting him. he told me Ryan shawcross parents wanted him to join Stoke as its nearer to Manchester, we almost had him!

jas :)

[/quote]

Good job we didn''t get him then. Not ready to grow up. I mean, Stoke over Norwich..........

OTBC

 

[Marty 0]

i guess they don''t grow on tress, especially the ones that we can afford. For instance, how good is Davenport? seems to me like most people wanted him back but a lot of you were asking if he was really good enough when he was here on loan.

Also, it cannot be that easy to get good defender since Man U are still playing Wes Brown regularly !

[lobster catcher 0]

[quote user="a1canary"]The saints match report says the following about their new central defensive signing Wayne Thomas:

"Saints were stronger and sharper with new £1m signing Wayne Thomas adding a commanding presence to the back line as well as height and strength and pace. He was the voice the team have lacked, organising and cajoling and proving an intimidating presence in a strong spine to the side."

This is exactly what we need. A voice at the back that the team lack. Why couldn''t we have got him? This shows it doesn''t have to be so hard to find someone. Sort it Peter.
[/quote]Its strange that their match report says that cos on one of their forums it says 1 million pounds wasted,this was posted by a supporter called slucky of something.As they lost 2-1 does that make their defence worse than ours.Imho i think we should try to get a youngster in on loan hopefully this will get the doc to buck his ideas up or lose his place.Winning games installs confidence so hopefully we will get better at the back and not worse.This isn''t having a go at you cos i also agree that the doc ain''t up to it yet this season,i am just pointing out the grass always looks greener on the other side,but after southamptons start this season i bet a few of their fans are questioning the defence and new signings

[nutty nigel 7,506]

I hope the reason we didn''t get Wayne Thomas has something to do with the fact he is not as good as what we already have. I agree we need leadership and a voice at the back but if ability counts for nothing then my mother-in-law could provide a loud and intimidating presence at a fraction of the cost of Wayne Thomas. Anyway, I have seen an improvement in the organisation of our back four this season, am I the only one that noticed?

I have said elsewhere and will say again here that I would be happy to improve any position in the side if we could get better than what we have. But this idea that just anybody is better than what we have is plain ridiculous.

 

[gissing canary 2]

[quote user="nutty nigel"]

I hope the reason we didn''t get Wayne Thomas has something to do with the fact he is not as good as what we already have. I agree we need leadership and a voice at the back but if ability counts for nothing then my mother-in-law could provide a loud and intimidating presence at a fraction of the cost of Wayne Thomas. Anyway, I have seen an improvement in the organisation of our back four this season, am I the only one that noticed?

I have said elsewhere and will say again here that I would be happy to improve any position in the side if we could get better than what we have. But this idea that just anybody is better than what we have is plain ridiculous.

 

[/quote]

 

I havent been to see them since the West Ham game, but still IMO I would have your mother-in-law over Doherty!

 

[nutty nigel 7,506]

[quote user="gissing canary"][quote user="nutty nigel"]

I hope the reason we didn''t get Wayne Thomas has something to do with the fact he is not as good as what we already have. I agree we need leadership and a voice at the back but if ability counts for nothing then my mother-in-law could provide a loud and intimidating presence at a fraction of the cost of Wayne Thomas. Anyway, I have seen an improvement in the organisation of our back four this season, am I the only one that noticed?

I have said elsewhere and will say again here that I would be happy to improve any position in the side if we could get better than what we have. But this idea that just anybody is better than what we have is plain ridiculous.

 

[/quote]

 

I havent been to see them since the West Ham game, but still IMO I would have your mother-in-law over Doherty!

 

[/quote]

Will you collect?

 

[a1canary 0]

[quote user="gissing canary"][quote user="nutty nigel"]

I hope the reason we didn''t get Wayne Thomas has something to do with the fact he is not as good as what we already have. I agree we need leadership and a voice at the back but if ability counts for nothing then my mother-in-law could provide a loud and intimidating presence at a fraction of the cost of Wayne Thomas. Anyway, I have seen an improvement in the organisation of our back four this season, am I the only one that noticed?

I have said elsewhere and will say again here that I would be happy to improve any position in the side if we could get better than what we have. But this idea that just anybody is better than what we have is plain ridiculous.

 [/quote]

 I havent been to see them since the West Ham game, but still IMO I would have your mother-in-law over Doherty!

 [/quote]

Lol, you asked for that Nutty! I''m prepared to be convinced re new organised look to our defence as i haven''t seen a game yet this season but whatever you think of what we currently have, no-one can deny we need cover at the very least.

[nutty nigel 7,506]

[quote user="a1canary"][quote user="gissing canary"][quote user="nutty nigel"]

I hope the reason we didn''t get Wayne Thomas has something to do with the fact he is not as good as what we already have. I agree we need leadership and a voice at the back but if ability counts for nothing then my mother-in-law could provide a loud and intimidating presence at a fraction of the cost of Wayne Thomas. Anyway, I have seen an improvement in the organisation of our back four this season, am I the only one that noticed?

I have said elsewhere and will say again here that I would be happy to improve any position in the side if we could get better than what we have. But this idea that just anybody is better than what we have is plain ridiculous.

 [/quote]

I havent been to see them since the West Ham game, but still IMO I would have your mother-in-law over Doherty!

 [/quote]

Lol, you asked for that Nutty! I''m prepared to be convinced re new organised look to our defence as i haven''t seen a game yet this season but whatever you think of what we currently have, no-one can deny we need cover at the very least.
[/quote]

I have posted over and over that we need cover at centre back. I have also posted over and over that Doherty is not the best central defender we have ever had and would be happy to see him replaced if we could get better.

Maybe you could post why you believe Wayne Thomas is better than what we already have and the qualities you see in him to convince you that Grant should have signed him.

 

[Marty 0]

[quote user="nutty nigel"][quote user="gissing canary"][quote user="nutty nigel"]

I hope the reason we didn''t get Wayne Thomas has something to do with the fact he is not as good as what we already have. I agree we need leadership and a voice at the back but if ability counts for nothing then my mother-in-law could provide a loud and intimidating presence at a fraction of the cost of Wayne Thomas. Anyway, I have seen an improvement in the organisation of our back four this season, am I the only one that noticed?

I have said elsewhere and will say again here that I would be happy to improve any position in the side if we could get better than what we have. But this idea that just anybody is better than what we have is plain ridiculous.

 

[/quote]

 

I havent been to see them since the West Ham game, but still IMO I would have your mother-in-law over Doherty!

 

[/quote]

Will you collect?

 

[/quote]

 

Oh how I chuckled at that.

[Arthur Whittle 0]

[quote user="a1canary"]The saints match report says the following about their new central defensive signing Wayne Thomas:

"Saints were stronger and sharper with new £1m signing Wayne Thomas adding a commanding presence to the back line as well as height and strength and pace. He was the voice the team have lacked, organising and cajoling and proving an intimidating presence in a strong spine to the side."

This is exactly what we need. A voice at the back that the team lack. Why couldn''t we have got him? This shows it doesn''t have to be so hard to find someone. Sort it Peter.
[/quote]

Agreed. I was somewhat baffled about the signings at first with regard to the lack of activity at the back but it seems apart from Etuthu departure PG seems to have knew who were on there way out and felt imo those posisitions were priority. I still believe we have limited funds left so maybe its a case of waitng till january and seeing where we are before commiting anymore funds. I believe we need a CB in the Davenport mould and cover for Drury, i feel Lappin is to vunerable in that position and im sure Drury could do with some real compition in that posistion. Two more Defenders and i think we have the right depth and mould with playes like doherty on the bench. Like i said im surprised we''ve struggled to find them or commit the funds for them as it would imo opinion and many people ive spoken to complete the jigsaw and turn us into a promotion challenging team.

[First Jedi 0]

Apparently not that hard;

http://carrowroad.net/news.php?item.303.1

[:)]

(rumour, I know, but still...)

[Chip20 69]

Sheffield Wednesday are after a new central defender too; they obviously don''t grow on trees.

[blahblahblah 2]

[quote]Agreed. I was somewhat baffled about the signings at first with regard

to the lack of activity at the back but it seems apart from Etuthu

departure PG seems to have knew who were on there way out and felt imo

those posisitions were priority. I still believe we have limited funds

left so maybe its a case of waitng till january and seeing where we are

before commiting anymore funds. I believe we need a CB in the Davenport

mould and cover for Drury, i feel Lappin is to vunerable in that

position and im sure Drury could do with some real compition in that

posistion. Two more Defenders and i think we have the right depth and

mould with playes like doherty on the bench. Like i said im surprised

we''ve struggled to find them or commit the funds for them as it would

imo opinion and many people ive spoken to complete the jigsaw and turn

us into a promotion challenging team.[/quote]Top quality post Arthur, keep it up.

[Citizen Journalist Foghorn 0]

Having seen the goals southampton conceded against Crystal Palace on the opening day of the season I can entirely understand why they signed Wayne Thomes.  They were a total shambles.

George Burley recognised a problem area and within the week has signed a player he thinks will help shore up the defense this season.

Its a shame that it has taken two years of weakness in the centre back positions and still no player has been signed to help shore up this problem.  In fact Dion Dublin has been the most assured player at the back and like the Doc he was signed as a striker.

[a1canary 0]

[quote user="nutty nigel"][quote user="a1canary"][quote user="gissing canary"][quote user="nutty nigel"]

I hope the reason we didn''t get Wayne Thomas has something to do with the fact he is not as good as what we already have. I agree we need leadership and a voice at the back but if ability counts for nothing then my mother-in-law could provide a loud and intimidating presence at a fraction of the cost of Wayne Thomas. Anyway, I have seen an improvement in the organisation of our back four this season, am I the only one that noticed?

I have said elsewhere and will say again here that I would be happy to improve any position in the side if we could get better than what we have. But this idea that just anybody is better than what we have is plain ridiculous.

 [/quote]

I havent been to see them since the West Ham game, but still IMO I would have your mother-in-law over Doherty!

 [/quote]

Lol, you asked for that Nutty! I''m prepared to be convinced re new organised look to our defence as i haven''t seen a game yet this season but whatever you think of what we currently have, no-one can deny we need cover at the very least.[/quote]

I have posted over and over that we need cover at centre back. I have also posted over and over that Doherty is not the best central defender we have ever had and would be happy to see him replaced if we could get better.

Maybe you could post why you believe Wayne Thomas is better than what we already have and the qualities you see in him to convince you that Grant should have signed him.

 [/quote]

I know you''ve posted again and again about this NN and i know where you

are coming from and what you are saying. You appreciate the need for

more cover but you believe that the current incumbants at CB can do a

good job for us in there.

I don''t believe that they are good enough to form a solid defensive

foundation to our team in the way we had with eddy, malky, flem and

drury in our champ season. Until we have that, i''m going to post about

it again and again as well, becuase it''s what bugs me most about the

team. Increasingly, as everything else is falling into place so nicely.

As to Wayne Thomas, i don''t know much about him admittedly but it''s

what was written in the saints match report that any NCFC fan should

recognise about the need for a voice, for a cajoler and an organiser

because it is what we have so sorely missed and never replaced since

our champ season. IF Wayne Thomas provides this, then yes it would have

been £1m well spent and yes, he''d give us something we don''t have and

improve what we already have. As CJF says, Saints saw the same deficiencies that we have and moved fast to address it. Using a million quid. And they''re broke. PG clearly sees it as less of an issue than Burley does.

[nutty nigel 7,506]

[quote user="a1canary"]

I know you''ve posted again and again about this NN and i know where you are coming from and what you are saying. You appreciate the need for more cover but you believe that the current incumbants at CB can do a good job for us in there.
I don''t believe that they are good enough to form a solid defensive foundation to our team in the way we had with eddy, malky, flem and drury in our champ season. Until we have that, i''m going to post about it again and again as well, becuase it''s what bugs me most about the team. Increasingly, as everything else is falling into place so nicely.
As to Wayne Thomas, i don''t know much about him admittedly but it''s what was written in the saints match report that any NCFC fan should recognise about the need for a voice, for a cajoler and an organiser because it is what we have so sorely missed and never replaced since our champ season. IF Wayne Thomas provides this, then yes it would have been £1m well spent and yes, he''d give us something we don''t have and improve what we already have. As CJF says, Saints saw the same deficiencies that we have and moved fast to address it. Using a million quid. And they''re broke. PG clearly sees it as less of an issue than Burley does.

[/quote]

You may be right a1 and I respect your opinion that they are not good enough. I just won''t have it when posters make up ridiculous stuff to try prove a point. At the end of the day the Norwich defence conceded 1 goal on Saturday where as the much sort after Saints defence with their deficiencies addressed conceded 2! Would you really swap?

 

 

[a1canary 0]

[quote user="nutty nigel"][quote user="a1canary"]

I know you''ve posted again and again about this NN and i know where you are coming from and what you are saying. You appreciate the need for more cover but you believe that the current incumbants at CB can do a good job for us in there. I don''t believe that they are good enough to form a solid defensive foundation to our team in the way we had with eddy, malky, flem and drury in our champ season. Until we have that, i''m going to post about it again and again as well, becuase it''s what bugs me most about the team. Increasingly, as everything else is falling into place so nicely.As to Wayne Thomas, i don''t know much about him admittedly but it''s what was written in the saints match report that any NCFC fan should recognise about the need for a voice, for a cajoler and an organiser because it is what we have so sorely missed and never replaced since our champ season. IF Wayne Thomas provides this, then yes it would have been £1m well spent and yes, he''d give us something we don''t have and improve what we already have. As CJF says, Saints saw the same deficiencies that we have and moved fast to address it. Using a million quid. And they''re broke. PG clearly sees it as less of an issue than Burley does.

[/quote]

You may be right a1 and I respect your opinion that they are not good enough. I just won''t have it when posters make up ridiculous stuff to try prove a point. At the end of the day the Norwich defence conceded 1 goal on Saturday where as the much sort after Saints defence with their deficiencies addressed conceded 2! Would you really swap?

 [/quote]

Not the whole defence. Thomas only came on for his debut later on in the game. And would the Doc have prevented JC''s second goal? I doubt it. If Thomas does what the saints reporter says he does, on debut (and there''s no reason to doubt him), then yes, i''d swap him for Doherty in a heartbeat.

[Marty 0]

[quote user="Lincoln Canary"]Sheffield Wednesday are after a new central defender too; they obviously don''t grow on trees.[/quote]

 

sorry to go off a tangent Lincoln, but can you explain what your cat is looking at? or does the cat like drinking tea?

[BigFish 1,986]

[quote user="Citizen Journalist Foghorn"]

Having seen the goals southampton conceded against Crystal Palace on the opening day of the season I can entirely understand why they signed Wayne Thomes.  They were a total shambles.

George Burley recognised a problem area and within the week has signed a player he thinks will help shore up the defense this season.

Its a shame that it has taken two years of weakness in the centre back positions and still no player has been signed to help shore up this problem.  In fact Dion Dublin has been the most assured player at the back and like the Doc he was signed as a striker.

[/quote]

Burnley fans are laughing their socks off at getting £1.2m for a player they didn''t rate and was running his contract down anyway. Burley the binner paniced and bought the only CB he could find. This is exactly the kind knee jerk behaviour we don''t want at the Club.

[a1canary 0]

[quote user="BigFish"][quote user="Citizen Journalist Foghorn"]

Having seen the goals southampton conceded against Crystal Palace on the opening day of the season I can entirely understand why they signed Wayne Thomes.  They were a total shambles.

George Burley recognised a problem area and within the week has signed a player he thinks will help shore up the defense this season.

Its a shame that it has taken two years of weakness in the centre back positions and still no player has been signed to help shore up this problem.  In fact Dion Dublin has been the most assured player at the back and like the Doc he was signed as a striker.

[/quote]

Burnley fans are laughing their socks off at getting £1.2m for a player they didn''t rate and was running his contract down anyway. Burley the binner paniced and bought the only CB he could find. This is exactly the kind knee jerk behaviour we don''t want at the Club.

[/quote]Come off it Bigfish, there''s ''knee jerk'' and there''s, i don''t know, what''s the opposite of knee jerk? How long does it have to take? Even if the first thing Grant did when he arrived was to sign a new centre back it wouldn''t have been a knee jerk reaction.

[a1canary 0]

[quote user="BigFish"][quote user="Citizen Journalist Foghorn"]

Having seen the goals southampton conceded against Crystal Palace on the opening day of the season I can entirely understand why they signed Wayne Thomes.  They were a total shambles.

George Burley recognised a problem area and within the week has signed a player he thinks will help shore up the defense this season.

Its a shame that it has taken two years of weakness in the centre back positions and still no player has been signed to help shore up this problem.  In fact Dion Dublin has been the most assured player at the back and like the Doc he was signed as a striker.

[/quote]

Burnley fans are laughing their socks off at getting £1.2m for a player they didn''t rate and was running his contract down anyway. Burley the binner paniced and bought the only CB he could find. This is exactly the kind knee jerk behaviour we don''t want at the Club.

[/quote]Come off it Bigfish, there''s ''knee jerk'' and there''s, i don''t know, what''s the opposite of knee jerk? How long does it have to take? Even if the first thing Grant did when he arrived was to sign a new centre back it wouldn''t have been a knee jerk reaction.P.s. NN, I see Thomas didn''t come on as a sub for saints, he played the whole game, got that wrong...

[ZLF 271]

[quote user="a1canary"]

 in the way we had with eddy, malky, flem and drury in our champ season.

[/quote]

That foursome highlights why goals coinceeded is not all about the ''defence''

Up to the loan signings (early Oct I think) we were shipping goals faster per game than any combination of defenders in years.  Yet with the addition of quality loan signings they suddenly became defensive gods.  That same back four had its weakest point correctly moved on when he wanted a first team slot and wasnt happy with subs,  and then started the trend for conceeding 70+ goals a season we still have.

Neither shax nor doc (who are of similar ability) are world beaters but nor were that back 4. The fact that some very average tat like thomas can command a million tells you just how little decent central defending talent there is out there.  Doc and shax are as good as the vast majority in this league (performances and stats show they are on a par with each other and their peers) and it will cost a fortune to improve upon them.  

What we need is options - closing the window without them in defence would be an unacceptably high risk strategy for me.    

 

[Smudger 0]

The reason is quite simple really... we don''t have two brass pennies to rub together!!!

[Indy_Bones 441]

[quote user="Smudger"]The reason is quite simple really... we don''t have two brass pennies to rub together!!![/quote]

That''s where you''re wrong though Smudge, we do have the Brass Pennies, however good quality centre backs are going for Gold Doubloons...

There''s no way that the likes of Thomas are worth £1 million, and if a player of his ability level can command this sort of fee, then getting defenders of a superior nature to Doc and Shacks are likely to be valued at over £2-3 million.

Then, even if we have the cash - who is genuinely available of this ability level to sign? IMHO, Davenport isn''t up to that standard of fee, neither is Sodje, and aside from looking at possible foreign imports such as Gravgaard, we''re really struggling for geniune options.

We do need extra cover, this is something pretty much 99% of the fans agree on, however where I (and some others) disagree, is the view that top class defenders are simply ''two a penny'', and that the board/manager are badly failing because they haven''t signed anyone. Grant seems very aware of the need to get someone in, the problem is a lack of genuinely good options.

We also seem to be forgetting that Worthington was slated for not giving our youth players a chance, yet we appear very quick to discount the likes of Spillane, Halliday and Rossi Jarvis as defensive cover options. Spillane in particular has been impressive on international duty and on the couple of games he''s played for us, and surely represents as good an option as paying out millions for very average players?

Personally, I''d be happy to see a defender brought in on loan, but a fair chance given to our younger players as priority over this.

[Citizen Journalist Foghorn 0]

[quote user="ZippersLeftFoot"][quote user="a1canary"]

 in the way we had with eddy, malky, flem and drury in our champ season.

[/quote]

That foursome highlights why goals coinceeded is not all about the ''defence''

Up to the loan signings (early Oct I think) we were shipping goals faster per game than any combination of defenders in years.  Yet with the addition of quality loan signings they suddenly became defensive gods.  That same back four had its weakest point correctly moved on when he wanted a first team slot and wasnt happy with subs,  and then started the trend for conceeding 70+ goals a season we still have.

Neither shax nor doc (who are of similar ability) are world beaters but nor were that back 4. The fact that some very average tat like thomas can command a million tells you just how little decent central defending talent there is out there.  Doc and shax are as good as the vast majority in this league (performances and stats show they are on a par with each other and their peers) and it will cost a fortune to improve upon them.  

What we need is options - closing the window without them in defence would be an unacceptably high risk strategy for me.    

 

[/quote]

based on the first 5 games before the loans appeared.....  based on the first 5 games of last season the defense could be world beaters...

[BigPhil 0]

Hi Y''all! 1st time poster (ooh!) but season ticket holder for a few years now.

Thinking back to Saturdays game (t''is a bit hazy), I cannot remember Marshall having too many saves to make, even when we were playin absolute poo in the 1st half. What does that say about how the defence played! (Though the goal was a shambles). True both Shaks and Docherty were given a tough time by the Southampton forwards but I can''t remember them losing a challenge or the ball in an important area. Docherty even put in  number of great blocks.

I know Docherty can be a liabilty at times (2nd goal at Barnet he was asleep) and their distribution can be woeful.(Shackell''s Saturday was poor) but perhaps they are doing a better job then we can see. It also helps that Drury is doing a lot better at LB and of course Semmy rather than Hooze at RB and that is without a fully fit Brellier protecting in front of them.

True we could do with cover at least but as others have said is there really taht much out there for a reasonable price. Sodje aside who I think would be great, our best bet my be a young loan star a''la O''Dea/Shawcross. or perhaps Granty has bigger things in mind for Spillane (who looked great with Shackell away at the end against Sheff Wed last season). Only time will tell I guess.

[Chip20 69]

[quote user="Marty"]

[quote user="Lincoln Canary"]Sheffield Wednesday are after a new central defender too; they obviously don''t grow on trees.[/quote]

 

sorry to go off a tangent Lincoln, but can you explain what your cat is looking at? or does the cat like drinking tea?

[/quote]

Heh heh. The moggie''s a little scrounger and was after the tea and buscuits!