Ever been a big club?

[Broken_hearted_canary 0]

i''d just like to know what peoples views are regarding the idea that we are/are not or have been whats known as a ''big club''.

this just occured to me as i''d like to know where people think NCFC should naturally be?

thanks for any response to this, but please keep out and in-fighting there is on this site.

[hogesar 9,657]

I get what you''re saying, but a big club is purely based on opinion. Is a big club Chelski/Manure, or does it start with the blackburns and boltons?

To me, an answer would purely based on opinion :D

[Blainsey 2]

I think we are a moderate club. In terms of attendance we pull in one of the largerst attendance figures in the champosnhip. Financially we cant compete.

In terms of past success we havent achieved enough to warrant calling ourselves a big club. Winning the league cup and div 1 doesnt put us up there. Neither does one fairly successful uefa cup run.

So i dont think we have ever been a big club, i dont think we have the potential to be a big club due to our geographical location and we certianly currently are not a big club.

[Tom NCFC 0]

It depends how you define ''big''. If you mean big as a large and loyal fan support then i''d say we are big (just like every other team in the Championship or above including Leeds and Notts Forest).

If you define ''big'' as successful then I don''t really know cause i''m unsure of your past achievements.

NCFC should naturally be at the top of the premiership but my answer is bias purely cause I support Norwich City. I imagine the Boston United fans would naturally want to see there club at the top of the Prem.

P.S. Good question broken hearted canary, it made me think

[ricardo 7,384]

[quote user="Broken_hearted_canary"]

i''d just like to know what peoples views are regarding the idea that we are/are not or have been whats known as a ''big club''.

this just occured to me as i''d like to know where people think NCFC should naturally be?

thanks for any response to this, but please keep out and in-fighting there is on this site.

[/quote]

A few years ago one of the football mags did an analysis of English clubs rankings in the modern era. They gave points for league position and FA Cup and League Cup performance. I can''t remember the exact figures but at that time we came out somewhere between 20th and 30th.

That would seem about right to me.

[Old Shuck 183]

I suppose its all relative isn''t it?

We''re certainly the biggest club in Norfolk-and,arguably, the biggest club in East Anglia now, certainly our gates, achievements and profile over the last five years or so compares very favourably with that of Ipswich.

On a national scale, we are certainly not a big club though-however, if you "bracket" clubs into categories according to their size, profile, average home gate etc over that period, and, assuming that the "big four" plus clubs like Tottenham, Newcastle, Everton etc join them there, then we might well be in the second tier-admittedly one with a lot of clubs-but there, hoping to compete and match what clubs such as Bolton, Fulham, Charlton etc have achieved, and alongside current "contemporaries" like Ipswich, Leicester, Southampton, Sheffield Wednesday etc.

I don''t think its that important to be honest-whenever Ipswich fans come on here, WOTB, wherever, and start harping on about how much "bigger" than us they are, quoting their trophy successes, internationals, two England managers etc etc, I think "so what?" Indeed, I wonder how they manage to put up with years and years of mediocrity in that case, if they are such a big club as their fans constantly proclaim them to be, then why no trophy since 1981 for a start, why a very average Premiership record and a highest finish that isn''t as good as ours? You''d think that, far from triumphing in their "bigness", Ippo fans and messageboards would be full of their very own Smudgers, Arthurs and 1st Wizards, all condemning their club for its lack of success, vision, ambition etc, whilst "little old Norwich" ( copyright Delia) continue to overachieve in their shadow! Yet they seem happy to compete with the likes of us, rather than prove they are a "big club" anymore. And we think we''ve got problems!

We don''t do so bad. Good ground, good infrastructure, progressive (we hope-stay down Smudger et al, I said "we hope"!!) board, certainly a Manager who seems to be ambitious-and, after all, if PG is to achieve his well worn and known ambition of managing Celtic, he has to do well with us first!-great fanbase, some good players in the current squad...there are negative points as well, a debt that seems forever to be increasing, a certain amount of, understandable supporter discontent, rather too much spin at times & an image (the "little old Norwich" thing again, and as a club that is out of the way, country cousins etc-which puts players off joining us) but, on balance, there will still be a lot of clubs that would like to be where we are-big in heart maybe, if not big in size.

Its a big, important season coming up. Is promotion/a play off place crucial, critical, and unconditional in 2007/08? Maybe not-I''d love to see it, but what is more important is the team starting to play well, starting to be more consistant, building up a decent squad of players, players who play in their favoured positions and who are good at their jobs-rather than adequate-and, in doing so, to bring back a little more of the feel good factor to Carrow Road in doing so and give us real and genuine hope for the future, rather than all of the uncertainty and associated, rather "forced" atmosphere felt in and around the club last season.

 

[gazzathegreat 0]

Not today, no.  Purely in terms of what we have achieved, stadium size, profits etc.

However we are a very well supported club and have a loyal and sizeable support away from home especially. 

Back in the late 80s and early 90s we were up there with the best of them, a couple of FA semis, top half finishes in the top division, then our great year of 92-93.  But since then we have gone backwards, sadly as money has become increasingly important to a club''s success. 

[foxile 0]

Interesting debate.

Personally i think the main criteria is that of history and success, numbers of seasons in the top flight, trophies etc... Support base as well. As a Leicester fan, of course we are not as big as clubs such as Manchester United, Liverpool, but in terms of seasons in the top flight we have been quite successful, we''ve never dropped out of the top two divisions and have spent more seasons in the old First Division and Premiership than not. Recent history isn''t too bad either, only four clubs have won more trophies than us in the last 15years i believe. Not too sure on your history so i wouldnt want to make judgement.[:)]

I think to make yourself a bigger club it requires years of consistent relative success. For example, i personally dont class Chelsea as a bigger club than Liverpool due to their recent title wins, nor do i class a club such as Wigan bigger than Forest and Leeds, despite them playing League one.

It''s all subjective.

[Ken Aries 0]

Somebody mentioned a survey where we came out as between 20th and 30th biggest club in the football league. I believe a more recent survey (within the last couple of years or so) placed us at about 15th biggest. This tends to make me think our rightful place is in the Premiership.

[ricardo 7,384]

[quote user="Ken Aries"]Somebody mentioned a survey where we came out as between 20th and 30th biggest club in the football league. I believe a more recent survey (within the last couple of years or so) placed us at about 15th biggest. This tends to make me think our rightful place is in the Premiership.[/quote]

It depends on the criteria that you use Ken. The one I am refering to allotted a certain number of points for league position finishes and progress in Cups and European competitions. I am not sure if crowd size was included but probably it was.

It would be interesting if somebody could dig up this information as it would make a good topic for debate. I have looked on the internet but have been unable to find any reference to it.

[Old Shuck 183]

Well, we''ve got the 31st biggest ground, according to this!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_English_football_stadia_by_capacity

 

 

[Mello Yello 2,289]

Re: Ever been a big club?

No, but we''ve been an average sized cudgel.....[:|]

[Mr.Carrow 376]

No we are not a big club but we are extremely lucky that we have the very obvious potential to become one-at least in terms of crowd numbers. There are not many clubs in Britain that can draw on a population of over a million (Norfolk and Waveney) with no competition from other clubs or major sports. Doncaster stated that over the promotion/Prem. time period there was demand to sell 35,000 tickets each week which would put us in the top 12 or so in the country.

Of course the problem is the only way we can get the extra seats in without further weakening the team is at least one season in the Prem. I would love to see the club taking advantage of its "nice little Norwich" image by pushing to trial safe terracing, which should fairly comfortably solve the shortage of capacity. But it will never happen.

[Yellowfuture 71]

TOP OF THE PREMIER LEAGUE, that will do for a big club.

Now big will be determined by ambition, not so big I fear!

[beelsie 0]

Unless we  have met or will meet the following criteria,

IMHO a big club is a club that is able to put the most bums on seats; is solvent, and is able to pay its way with the income from gate receipts and club facilities that are available to all; where club activities are crystal clear and are able to publish yearly a balance sheet in simple terms, that all supporters and fans alike can make complete sense of.  Where the policies and aims are clearly stated at the beginning of each season. 

Also when there is a failure to meet those aims, an explanitory note is published stating stating the reason for that failure.  It is also a club that from its receipts, is able to hire fire and employ the best players available. Therefore a club that can physically attract to their locality the best players available.  Produce a fan base that is appreciative of that status to a point where they will only conduct themselves in a respectable manner in all matters (written or spoken) to do with this truely BIG CLUB. I cannot ever visualise little old Norwich ever becoming a club like that and as I cannot see over the horizon, there is at this present time not one in view.  OTBC!!!

[BlyBlyBabes 0]

[quote user="Broken_hearted_canary"]

i''d just like to know what peoples views are regarding the idea that we are/are not or have been whats known as a ''big club''.

this just occured to me as i''d like to know where people think NCFC should naturally be?

thanks for any response to this, but please keep out and in-fighting there is on this site.

[/quote]

Maybe this fact will help the discussion. We had the 16th highest average attendance in England last season - only beaten by 13 prem clubs and 2 champ clubs despite us finishing 36th in the country.

We also topped the stadium capacity utilisation table for the Championship.

OTBC

 

[BlyBlyBabes 0]

[quote user="Blainsey"]

I think we are a moderate club. In terms of attendance we pull in one of the largerst attendance figures in the champosnhip. Financially we cant compete.

In terms of past success we havent achieved enough to warrant calling ourselves a big club. Winning the league cup and div 1 doesnt put us up there. Neither does one fairly successful uefa cup run.

So i dont think we have ever been a big club, i dont think we have the potential to be a big club due to our geographical location and we certianly currently are not a big club.

[/quote]

Assuming that you are correct  how would you explain this conundrum, Blainsey?

OTBC

 

[chicken 0]

Attendance means very little unfortunately.

Sure having a wapping attendance can help in two ways. The first being the obvious windful that the sold tickets bring. The seccond being that should the 20,000+ fans choose to be vocal then you also have another facter aiding your team on the pitch to a win.

However you have to look at this things in perspective.

If you consider Norwich as a Big club then what you need to do is give it a context. For example if I was to say that Norwich is a Big club I would construct a scale:

Giant Club: eg, Man U, Arsenal, Liverpool, Chelsea, Newcastle

Huge Club: eg, Tottenham, Bolton, Sunderland,

Big Club: eg, Wolves, West Brom, Birmingham, Norwich, Plymouth

Medium Club: eg, QPR, Burnley, Stoke,

Small Club: eg, Brighton,

Obviously this is all opinionated and to be honest I have not put to much thought into the arrangement of these, this is purely as an example. All I am trying to say is that I do not see Norwich as challenging the likes of Arsenal and Man U or perhaps some of the teams in the rung above. Admittedly there are some exceptions to the rule for example where would you put Leeds or Wigan?

Its one thing to have a big fan base, but then there is another factor - a winning mentality. You look at the likes of Newcastle, Liverpool and Arsenal - some might say that their fans are slightly arrogant in that they always percieve success but then they do not sit quietly and wait for it. Arsenal will always sell out, Newcastle have consistantly high gates and Liverpool are probably one of the worlds most "buzzing" clubs. These are teams that are famed for having players that turn heads with their ability on the pitch and their fans have come to expect it and support it.

With a club like Norwich you can not say that over a ten year period we have had consistantly high gates - buisiness is not something that is built over one or two seasons of success. When I had a season ticked in 1998/99 the average gate was not anywhere near to capacity and it was comparative to a lot of other clubs. Just look at some of the play-offs from the lower leagues this year - some teams took 40k+ fans to them.

For Norwich to become a huge or giant club is going to take a lot - most of the top ten of the premiership is filled with these and there are some that slip as far as the bottom 6 also. This is what makes the premiership tough to stick in - Charlton are an example of how a small club can survive but not compete with the top two brackets even after several seasons.

[BlyBlyBabes 0]

[quote user="Broken_hearted_canary"]

i''d just like to know what peoples views are regarding the idea that we are/are not or have been whats known as a ''big club''.

this just occured to me as i''d like to know where people think NCFC should naturally be?

thanks for any response to this, but please keep out and in-fighting there is on this site.

[/quote]

To answer this question directly (and in the context of supporting our club for nearly 50 years), I would say that in the modern world and all things considered we should naturally be lower Premiership on average.

We have underperformed our potential over the past 10-12 years - no doubt. And most of the sharp divisions on this board are between those who recognise this and seek to analyse why- and those who tend to be content, ready with excuses of all kinds and unambitious.

As to whether or not we are a big club, I think that that judgement depends upon what you think of as big. On Chicken''s scale we have grown to big  over the past 50 years, but not huge - and I think that that is about correct.

If we don''t soar next season then those at the top where the buck stops will have some serious questions to answer because we will  in grave danger of reversing all the gains of the past 50 years by becoming average-to-small again.

And by the way - why are you ''Broken_hearted''?

One love.

OTBC

[ZLF 274]

NCFC a big club?   Compared to all clubs within the UK yes,   compared to all prfoessional clubs we are amongst the biggest 50,  but in no way are we a big club.

We are average for the champs and prem,  meaning we should filt around teh lower prem/upperchamps as average,  and we know we have been below our average for the last 2 years.