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Profits from Player Trading

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The club''s accounts show that in 2005/6 we made a profit of £3,107,484 from player trading.

None of it was used to strengthen the team last summer.  We didn''t even spend the proceeds from the sales of Green and McKenzie.  The outcome in terms of underachievement on the field and discord off it was entirely predictable.

Anyone still think the board have their priorities right?

 

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For the love of God not this old chestnut again!!!!

Where do you think that the money went?

Well, let me suggest that the £2mill plus bid for Cotterill last summer was connected.   Perhaps the known bids for £3mill plus (Sharp and Marshall) are connected.  The money in my view is still there and is part of the pot along with the Turners.

Yes, the Board must have kept some back to protect the club against the loss of the parachute money and yes, it was not spent last summer.  The Turner''s invetsment is also in the pot but does not explain all the current activity.

Last summer the Board may have kept Worthy on a tight rein e.g. Howard.  After the disaster of the previous summer with Hughes, Jarrett and Thorne who could blame them?  They were right.  Perhaps the Board backed Worthy but with his transfer touch completely gone, he dithered and didn''t spend it?  I don''t know.

Either way, this says nothing about the Board''s overall ambition.  What happens this summer will say a great deal.   Let''s see what we have in August.

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please excuse my ignorance as i may have thise wrong, but didnt we use the money to sign Lee Croft from Man City and on our loan signings wages and agents fees? or did the money come from a ''different pot''?

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Fair point, the board have been way too prudent and I very much doubt you will find one person who disagrees with this.

However, I fail to see the point of raking over old ground yet again. So far since the season has ended we have made bids for four players (Varney, Sharp, Marshall & Nixon) that we know of. The prices quoted for these players range between £100,000 and £2,500,000.

Are we starting to show more ambition and perhaps start spending those profits? Nobody knows do they, but don''t let that stop you digging up year old figures just to make your point.

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[quote user="mystic megson"]

The club''s accounts show that in 2005/6 we made a profit of £3,107,484 from player trading.

None of it was used to strengthen the team last summer.  We didn''t even spend the proceeds from the sales of Green and McKenzie.  The outcome in terms of underachievement on the field and discord off it was entirely predictable.

Anyone still think the board have their priorities right?

 

[/quote]

True Mystic, but the 2005/6 accounts also says this-

" Failure to win promotion at the end of 2007 will reduce our income by a minimum of £7m following the loss of Premier League Parachute Payments. While the club remains in the Championship  it will be necessary to balance the cashflow and generate surpluss funds for further player aquisition by selling assets".

 

I agree that the result of this was entirely predictable but the club still has to exist within its means.

I pressume the the board had to make a decision to either mortgage the future in order to hopefully bounce back or act prudently and not take a chance.

I guess its back to the old arguement of taking a gamble. Derby did it and succeeded. Southampton did it and failed.

The bright side of your Mckenzie / Green arguement is that there is still a large wedge of cash to come. That, and the Turner money is why I think we will be surprised at the amount we will spend this year.

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Mystic - I find it difficult at times trying to understand the accounts and the reasons for the way the club operate. But we know that there is less income this season and maybe the club budgeted for that eventuality. The accounting year ends on 31st May and if there''s no surplus at that time then how are we going to have money to spend in the June/July. I am guessing that the surplus that was there in May2006 has been added to by May 2007. Maybe it would be better to hide it away so we don''t pay the taxman? But is tax evasion ever better??

I don''t think the transfer windows help out  any club and give an advantage to the clubs who can afford to carry the biggest squads.

On a related point - Does anybody know when the premiership payments are made? What I mean - It''s said to be worth 50m for Derby to win the play-off final but in reality is this the money that they get at the end of next season?

 

 

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[quote user="CambridgeCanary"]

For the love of God not this old chestnut again!!!!

Where do you think that the money went?

Well, let me suggest that the £2mill plus bid for Cotterill last summer was connected.   Perhaps the known bids for £3mill plus (Sharp and Marshall) are connected.  The money in my view is still there and is part of the pot along with the Turners.

Yes, the Board must have kept some back to protect the club against the loss of the parachute money and yes, it was not spent last summer.  The Turner''s invetsment is also in the pot but does not explain all the current activity.

Last summer the Board may have kept Worthy on a tight rein e.g. Howard.  After the disaster of the previous summer with Hughes, Jarrett and Thorne who could blame them?  They were right.  Perhaps the Board backed Worthy but with his transfer touch completely gone, he dithered and didn''t spend it?  I don''t know.

Either way, this says nothing about the Board''s overall ambition.  What happens this summer will say a great deal.   Let''s see what we have in August.

[/quote]

Cambridge your post is full of mays, mights, suggests, musts and perhapses.  I deal in facts.  I have no idea where the money has gone, and nor have you.

 

 

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[quote user="ricardo"][quote user="mystic megson"]

The club''s accounts show that in 2005/6 we made a profit of £3,107,484 from player trading.

None of it was used to strengthen the team last summer.  We didn''t even spend the proceeds from the sales of Green and McKenzie.  The outcome in terms of underachievement on the field and discord off it was entirely predictable.

Anyone still think the board have their priorities right?

 

[/quote]

True Mystic, but the 2005/6 accounts also says this-

" Failure to win promotion at the end of 2007 will reduce our income by a minimum of £7m following the loss of Premier League Parachute Payments. While the club remains in the Championship  it will be necessary to balance the cashflow and generate surpluss funds for further player aquisition by selling assets".

 

[/quote]

By underinvesting in the squad, our "failure to win promotion at the end of 2007" was virtually guaranteed.  QED.

 

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[quote user="mystic megson"][quote user="ricardo"][quote user="mystic megson"]

The club''s accounts show that in 2005/6 we made a profit of £3,107,484 from player trading.

None of it was used to strengthen the team last summer.  We didn''t even spend the proceeds from the sales of Green and McKenzie.  The outcome in terms of underachievement on the field and discord off it was entirely predictable.

Anyone still think the board have their priorities right?

 

[/quote]

True Mystic, but the 2005/6 accounts also says this-

" Failure to win promotion at the end of 2007 will reduce our income by a minimum of £7m following the loss of Premier League Parachute Payments. While the club remains in the Championship  it will be necessary to balance the cashflow and generate surpluss funds for further player aquisition by selling assets".

 

[/quote]

By underinvesting in the squad, our "failure to win promotion at the end of 2007" was virtually guaranteed.  QED.

 

[/quote]

The other side of the coin is that investment gaurantees nothing (Southampton). If you were a board member Mystic, would you have risked all on a promotion push, knowing that failure would put you in even deeper sh*!

Obviously a balance has to be struck somewhere and eventually the board members will be proved either right or wrong by events. I would love to see a bigger investment made this season but not at the risk of bankrupting the club.

I just think that the boards actions can''t be seen in the black or white alternatives that some people are putting forward.

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[quote user="CambridgeCanary"]

For the love of God not this old chestnut again!!!!

Where do you think that the money went?

Well, let me suggest that the £2mill plus bid for Cotterill last summer was connected.   Perhaps the known bids for £3mill plus (Sharp and Marshall) are connected.  The money in my view is still there and is part of the pot along with the Turners.

Yes, the Board must have kept some back to protect the club against the loss of the parachute money and yes, it was not spent last summer.  The Turner''s invetsment is also in the pot but does not explain all the current activity.

Last summer the Board may have kept Worthy on a tight rein e.g. Howard.  After the disaster of the previous summer with Hughes, Jarrett and Thorne who could blame them?  They were right.  Perhaps the Board backed Worthy but with his transfer touch completely gone, he dithered and didn''t spend it?  I don''t know.

Either way, this says nothing about the Board''s overall ambition.  What happens this summer will say a great deal.   Let''s see what we have in August.

[/quote]

If the board felt like this then they should have sacked him! Everyone could see the squad wasn''t good enough and to keep on a manager you no longer trusted in the transfer market would be criminally negligent and inexcusable.

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[quote user="CambridgeCanary"]

For the love of God not this old chestnut again!!!!

Where do you think that the money went?

Well, let me suggest that the £2mill plus bid for Cotterill last summer was connected.   Perhaps the known bids for £3mill plus (Sharp and Marshall) are connected.  The money in my view is still there and is part of the pot along with the Turners.

Yes, the Board must have kept some back to protect the club against the loss of the parachute money and yes, it was not spent last summer.  The Turner''s invetsment is also in the pot but does not explain all the current activity.

Last summer the Board may have kept Worthy on a tight rein e.g. Howard.  After the disaster of the previous summer with Hughes, Jarrett and Thorne who could blame them?  They were right.  Perhaps the Board backed Worthy but with his transfer touch completely gone, he dithered and didn''t spend it?  I don''t know.

Either way, this says nothing about the Board''s overall ambition.  What happens this summer will say a great deal.   Let''s see what we have in August.

[/quote]

I should hope that the money is still there because if it isn''t there would certainly be questions to be answered.

My fear is that the said money will still be sat there in exactly the same place this time next year and the following year after that unless some of you plonkers wake up to yourselves and demand change!!!

Yes lets see what we have at the end of August shall we???  But I tell you now that it won''t be a lot... and yet again will be no way near enough to put us in with a shout of promotion!!!

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[quote user="ricardo"][quote user="mystic megson"][quote user="ricardo"][quote user="mystic megson"]

The club''s accounts show that in 2005/6 we made a profit of £3,107,484 from player trading.

None of it was used to strengthen the team last summer.  We didn''t even spend the proceeds from the sales of Green and McKenzie.  The outcome in terms of underachievement on the field and discord off it was entirely predictable.

Anyone still think the board have their priorities right?

 

[/quote]

True Mystic, but the 2005/6 accounts also says this-

" Failure to win promotion at the end of 2007 will reduce our income by a minimum of £7m following the loss of Premier League Parachute Payments. While the club remains in the Championship  it will be necessary to balance the cashflow and generate surpluss funds for further player aquisition by selling assets".

 

[/quote]

By underinvesting in the squad, our "failure to win promotion at the end of 2007" was virtually guaranteed.  QED.

 

[/quote]

The other side of the coin is that investment gaurantees nothing (Southampton). If you were a board member Mystic, would you have risked all on a promotion push, knowing that failure would put you in even deeper sh*!

Obviously a balance has to be struck somewhere and eventually the board members will be proved either right or wrong by events. I would love to see a bigger investment made this season but not at the risk of bankrupting the club.

I just think that the boards actions can''t be seen in the black or white alternatives that some people are putting forward.

[/quote]

Quite so Ricardo.  If you''re accusing me of a "risk all" approach, you''re jumping to your own conclusions.  It''s not something I''ve ever advocated, although I do feel that a football club is bound to fail if it does not use the profits from player trading to bring an understrength squad up to scratch. 

Ricardo, the fact is that we didn''t risk any.  We didn''t even spend all the proceeds from the sales of Green and McKenzie to strengthen the squad last summer, let alone touch the profits. 

As for "deeper sh*t" we weren''t in the sh*t in the first place, except that of our own making.  We made £9 million profit the season before, and again did not spend nearly enough on strengthening the squad, with predictable consequences both on and off the field. 

And that''s what concerns me most - we only had two seasons parachute money.  In those two seasons we also had profits of £10 million at our disposal.  In both seasons our squad was chronically understrength and simply not equipped to sustain a challenge for the top six over a 46-game season.  That can''t be right, and you have to wonder why.  Despite Munby''s wittering about how difficult it is for relegated sides to bounce straight back, the last two seasons represented our best chance, and they''ve squandered it in almost criminal fashion.  We''re back to square one, and it didn''t have to happen.

There''s one area in which our board have been remarkably successful - duping the fans into believing that we''re constantly on the verge of bankruptcy and only their prudence is keeping the administrators at bay.  And imo the root of the deep divisions that now exist between formerly united Norwich fans lies in the board''s actions, or lack of.

 

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[quote user="mystic megson"][quote user="CambridgeCanary"]

For the love of God not this old chestnut again!!!!

Where do you think that the money went?

Well, let me suggest that the £2mill plus bid for Cotterill last summer was connected.   Perhaps the known bids for £3mill plus (Sharp and Marshall) are connected.  The money in my view is still there and is part of the pot along with the Turners.

Yes, the Board must have kept some back to protect the club against the loss of the parachute money and yes, it was not spent last summer.  The Turner''s invetsment is also in the pot but does not explain all the current activity.

Last summer the Board may have kept Worthy on a tight rein e.g. Howard.  After the disaster of the previous summer with Hughes, Jarrett and Thorne who could blame them?  They were right.  Perhaps the Board backed Worthy but with his transfer touch completely gone, he dithered and didn''t spend it?  I don''t know.

Either way, this says nothing about the Board''s overall ambition.  What happens this summer will say a great deal.   Let''s see what we have in August.

[/quote]

Cambridge your post is full of mays, mights, suggests, musts and perhapses.  I deal in facts.  I have no idea where the money has gone, and nor have you.

[/quote]Mystic - the last fact, that none of us know the full financial story, is the most relevant. You chose to see what we know negatively, others chose to view positively.  Certainly Cambridge''s post about losing parachute payments is an irrefutible fact, along with the bid for Cotterill, along with the new investors aboard in the Turners, along with the bids for Marshall and Sharp. These facts are enough for me top remain positive right now!

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[quote user="Smudger"][quote user="CambridgeCanary"]

For the love of God not this old chestnut again!!!!

Where do you think that the money went?

Well, let me suggest that the £2mill plus bid for Cotterill last summer was connected.   Perhaps the known bids for £3mill plus (Sharp and Marshall) are connected.  The money in my view is still there and is part of the pot along with the Turners.

Yes, the Board must have kept some back to protect the club against the loss of the parachute money and yes, it was not spent last summer.  The Turner''s invetsment is also in the pot but does not explain all the current activity.

Last summer the Board may have kept Worthy on a tight rein e.g. Howard.  After the disaster of the previous summer with Hughes, Jarrett and Thorne who could blame them?  They were right.  Perhaps the Board backed Worthy but with his transfer touch completely gone, he dithered and didn''t spend it?  I don''t know.

Either way, this says nothing about the Board''s overall ambition.  What happens this summer will say a great deal.   Let''s see what we have in August.

[/quote]

 

I should hope that the money is still there because if it isn''t there would certainly be questions to be answered.

My fear is that the said money will still be sat there in exactly the same place this time next year and the following year after that unless some of you plonkers wake up to yourselves and demand change!!!

Yes lets see what we have at the end of August shall we???  But I tell you now that it won''t be a lot... and yet again will be no way near enough to put us in with a shout of promotion!!!

[/quote]  Fair comment Smudger.  You are similiar to the poster who predicted the Turners and was roundly abused in that we will not know whether you are right for some weeks and time will tell.   If you are right there will be no pleasure for any of us unless you are a told you so type because City will be a bit of a hole at best and relegated at worst.  I cannot see you being right but we shall see.

What I cannot accept is your unremmitting negativty and eeyoreishness.  You have beliefs but unless you a visionary who knows what the future holds or you are inordinately arrogant, you must accept that there are other possibilities than your world holds and that not everything is a plot to destroy the club and frustrate the fans.

 

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I would just like to point out that the negativity expressed on here stems from the reality that for two seasons the squad has been appallingly weak whilst NCFC have been raking in millions in profits,transfers,parachute payments etc.The facts clearly back this belief up. As passionate fans we are angry about this and want to see the club taken in a different direction. What is so wrong about this? Given the evidence,this outlook is far more grounded in reality than the "things haven`t been good but they might get better" one.

Good stuff Mystic.

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[quote user="Mr.Carrow"]

I would just like to point out that the negativity expressed on here stems from the reality that for two seasons the squad has been appallingly weak whilst NCFC have been raking in millions in profits,transfers,parachute payments etc.The facts clearly back this belief up. As passionate fans we are angry about this and want to see the club taken in a different direction. What is so wrong about this? Given the evidence,this outlook is far more grounded in reality than the "things haven`t been good but they might get better" one.

Good stuff Mystic.

[/quote]

here, here MR.CARROW... very well said sir!!!  [Y]

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[quote user="Mr.Carrow"]

I would just like to point out that the negativity expressed on here stems from the reality that for two seasons the squad has been appallingly weak whilst NCFC have been raking in millions in profits,transfers,parachute payments etc.The facts clearly back this belief up. As passionate fans we are angry about this and want to see the club taken in a different direction. What is so wrong about this? Given the evidence,this outlook is far more grounded in reality than the "things haven`t been good but they might get better" one.

Good stuff Mystic.

[/quote]

Spot on![:D]

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[quote user="Mr.Carrow"]

I would just like to point out that the negativity expressed on here stems from the reality that for two seasons the squad has been appallingly weak whilst NCFC have been raking in millions in profits,transfers,parachute payments etc.The facts clearly back this belief up. As passionate fans we are angry about this and want to see the club taken in a different direction. What is so wrong about this? Given the evidence,this outlook is far more grounded in reality than the "things haven`t been good but they might get better" one.

Good stuff Mystic.

[/quote]

Mr Carrow, rather your interpretation of the limited facts we have at our disposal backs this up. My interpretation doesn''t. However, at least both you and Mystic stay civil and USE facts to back up your arguments, rather than some (from both ''sides'' of the debate) who just dribble on the keyboard.

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[quote user="Putney Canary"][quote user="Mr.Carrow"]

I would just like to point out that the negativity expressed on here stems from the reality that for two seasons the squad has been appallingly weak whilst NCFC have been raking in millions in profits,transfers,parachute payments etc.The facts clearly back this belief up. As passionate fans we are angry about this and want to see the club taken in a different direction. What is so wrong about this? Given the evidence,this outlook is far more grounded in reality than the "things haven`t been good but they might get better" one.

Good stuff Mystic.

[/quote]

Mr Carrow, rather your interpretation of the limited facts we have at our disposal backs this up. My interpretation doesn''t. However, at least both you and Mystic stay civil and USE facts to back up your arguments, rather than some (from both ''sides'' of the debate) who just dribble on the keyboard.

[/quote]

I am not interpreting the facts about the overall profits made, the profit made on players, the low squad number in comparison to our rivals,the amount wasted in tax or spent on infrastructure, the lower than average wage bill etc. I don`t have to, they speak for themselves.

Believe it or not, given the facts above, some people foresaw the current situation at Carrow Rd developing. I don`t suppose any of us are happy to be proved right but it seems that the people who refused to see it then still refuse to see it now and in all probability will stick to their guns should we be relegated next season. Quite amazing really.

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[quote user="Mr.Carrow"]

I am not interpreting the facts about the overall profits made, the profit made on players, the low squad number in comparison to our rivals,the amount wasted in tax or spent on infrastructure, the lower than average wage bill etc. I don`t have to, they speak for themselves.

Believe it or not, given the facts above, some people foresaw the current situation at Carrow Rd developing. I don`t suppose any of us are happy to be proved right but it seems that the people who refused to see it then still refuse to see it now and in all probability will stick to their guns should we be relegated next season. Quite amazing really.

[/quote]You are making assumptions, you don''t know exactly when money comes in, you don''t know what is currently planned with the money we do have, you don''t know anything about the day to day cash flow, cash forecast or any other numbers of facts you would need to see how any business is faring in reality. You are taking headline figures and working out for yourself if it means the board have ambition or not. I would take the larger than average wage bill, the new investors on board, and the investment in the infrastructure in the bones of the football club whilst preparing to lose parachute payments as signs that the board DO have ambition. However, we do know enough so that I do have simpathy with your view and as I have stated before I don''t believe the board has achieved the right balance yet. I just don''t think its as negative as some paint on here, and I am confident for the short, medium and long term  fortunes of Norwich City. I have stated on other threads I expect to see positive signs this summer and I don''t mind being quoted on that come the end of August.

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[quote user="Putney Canary"][quote user="Mr.Carrow"]

I am not interpreting the facts about the overall profits made, the profit made on players, the low squad number in comparison to our rivals,the amount wasted in tax or spent on infrastructure, the lower than average wage bill etc. I don`t have to, they speak for themselves.

Believe it or not, given the facts above, some people foresaw the current situation at Carrow Rd developing. I don`t suppose any of us are happy to be proved right but it seems that the people who refused to see it then still refuse to see it now and in all probability will stick to their guns should we be relegated next season. Quite amazing really.

[/quote]

You are making assumptions, you don''t know exactly when money comes in, you don''t know what is currently planned with the money we do have, you don''t know anything about the day to day cash flow, cash forecast or any other numbers of facts you would need to see how any business is faring in reality. You are taking headline figures and working out for yourself if it means the board have ambition or not. I would take the larger than average wage bill, the new investors on board, and the investment in the infrastructure in the bones of the football club whilst preparing to lose parachute payments as signs that the board DO have ambition.

However, we do know enough so that I do have simpathy with your view and as I have stated before I don''t believe the board has achieved the right balance yet. I just don''t think its as negative as some paint on here, and I am confident for the short, medium and long term  fortunes of Norwich City. I have stated on other threads I expect to see positive signs this summer and I don''t mind being quoted on that come the end of August.
[/quote]

There were positive signs at the end of last August, Putney, and we all know what happened after.

What is it that will make the difference this time, then?

On another point, how can you conclude that paying cr*p players over average wages in a desperately thin squad is a sign of ambition?

OTBC

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[quote user="Mr.Carrow"]

I would just like to point out that the negativity expressed on here stems from the reality that for two seasons the squad has been appallingly weak whilst NCFC have been raking in millions in profits,transfers,parachute payments etc.The facts clearly back this belief up. As passionate fans we are angry about this and want to see the club taken in a different direction. What is so wrong about this? Given the evidence,this outlook is far more grounded in reality than the "things haven`t been good but they might get better" one.

Good stuff Mystic.

[/quote]

i''ll second that.

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[quote user="Putney Canary"][quote user="Mr.Carrow"]

I am not interpreting the facts about the overall profits made, the profit made on players, the low squad number in comparison to our rivals,the amount wasted in tax or spent on infrastructure, the lower than average wage bill etc. I don`t have to, they speak for themselves.

Believe it or not, given the facts above, some people foresaw the current situation at Carrow Rd developing. I don`t suppose any of us are happy to be proved right but it seems that the people who refused to see it then still refuse to see it now and in all probability will stick to their guns should we be relegated next season. Quite amazing really.

[/quote]

You are making assumptions, you don''t know exactly when money comes in, you don''t know what is currently planned with the money we do have, you don''t know anything about the day to day cash flow, cash forecast or any other numbers of facts you would need to see how any business is faring in reality. You are taking headline figures and working out for yourself if it means the board have ambition or not. I would take the larger than average wage bill, the new investors on board, and the investment in the infrastructure in the bones of the football club whilst preparing to lose parachute payments as signs that the board DO have ambition.

However, we do know enough so that I do have simpathy with your view and as I have stated before I don''t believe the board has achieved the right balance yet. I just don''t think its as negative as some paint on here, and I am confident for the short, medium and long term  fortunes of Norwich City. I have stated on other threads I expect to see positive signs this summer and I don''t mind being quoted on that come the end of August.
[/quote]

The figures quoted in the accounts are not assumptions Putney, they are facts. And that is what i base my opinion on. I also base it on the events of the last few seasons when we HAVE made a large profit in the transfer market whilst the squad has been weak and struggling and we have been benefiting from £7.1million per season parachute payments. Those payments have now ended but we have gained a £2million loan which according to the club means we are not forced to sell anyone, so the balance of probability would so far indicate that we won`t have much leeway in the transfer market and that we will make a big profit on Earnshaw and spend around half of it-as we did with Ashton, Francis, Green etc. There are hopes and rumours that there may be more to the new investment than meets the eye but i base my opinion on reality, not hopes and rumours.

I don`t know where you get the information that we pay wages above the average but the recent Deloitte and Touche report stated that Championship clubs pay an average of 72% of turnover on overall wages. Our turnover last year was about £25million and overall wages about £15million which puts us below the average. Its all in the accounts if you want to check. If you don`t have them i can give you a rundown and maybe we can have a more informed debate.

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[quote user="Mr.Carrow"]

The figures quoted in the accounts are not assumptions Putney, they are facts. And that is what i base my opinion on. I also base it on the events of the last few seasons when we HAVE made a large profit in the transfer market whilst the squad has been weak and struggling and we have been benefiting from £7.1million per season parachute payments. Those payments have now ended but we have gained a £2million loan which according to the club means we are not forced to sell anyone, so the balance of probability would so far indicate that we won`t have much leeway in the transfer market and that we will make a big profit on Earnshaw and spend around half of it-as we did with Ashton, Francis, Green etc. There are hopes and rumours that there may be more to the new investment than meets the eye but i base my opinion on reality, not hopes and rumours.

I don`t know where you get the information that we pay wages above the average but the recent Deloitte and Touche report stated that Championship clubs pay an average of 72% of turnover on overall wages. Our turnover last year was about £25million and overall wages about £15million which puts us below the average. Its all in the accounts if you want to check. If you don`t have them i can give you a rundown and maybe we can have a more informed debate.

[/quote]

Well hi again Mr Carrow [:)]

I got dizzy going around in circles with you about this on another thread. I think you make some valid points and you yourself admitted our views are not far apart. I also concede that I don''t understand the accounts as well as you seem to although I would still say there is a healthy profit from off the field activities.

Maybe you could answer the question I have asked on three occasions now which is if the club don''t have any money at the end of May each year then how are they ever going to have money to spend in June and July in the transfer window? There could be very good reasons for this that I am too thick to understand so please try and be understanding in your reply [:P]

Another point that I don''t understand from your post is how you can have an informed debate about the state of the clubs finances when the only information you are using is from the season 2005/6. I would imagine things are very different this June compared to last June. However, I do totally agree with you though that for whatever reason, and I can''t recall hearing a reason from the Board, our attempts to strengthen the squad last summer were pathetic.

Another question I asked on this thread was if anybody knows when the "Premiership money" is paid to promoted clubs. It''s said to have been worth 50m for Derby County to win the play offs but do they get that money now, or August or next May? I know it''s of no relevence to us now but it could explain our reluctance to spend big on Ashton or Crouch in the summer of 2004.

 

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Nutty, excuse me for chipping in on your chat with Mr Carrow but I think I can clear up some of the confusion you may have.

The reason we use the financial information from 2005/06 is because these are the only audited accounts available at this time. The last financial year ended May 31st 2006. These accounts were published December 2006. The financial year ending May 31st 2007 will not be available until next December.

As for the Premiership payment the timing is probably not relevant. Most clubs buy and sell players with payments phased over several years so they don''t have to wait until they get a wodge of cash handed to them before they buy.

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[quote user="ricardo"]

The other side of the coin is that investment gaurantees nothing (Southampton). If you were a board member Mystic, would you have risked all on a promotion push, knowing that failure would put you in even deeper sh*!

[/quote]

Well, I notice Derby''s supposed ''Gamble'' is not mentioned anymore by the prudence brigade - I wonder why????  Also Southampton still have a very good squad going into next season.  We, on the other hand, have more or less the same failing tiny squad of the last two seasons - our first XI fully fit might be able to challenge for a play-off place, but beyond that we have nothing.

So next season Southampton will probably challenge again, and with a good season we might break into the top half of this division.

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Ricardo - I understand that we only have the accounting information from 05/06 because the next report won''t be available until December. It''s just that I don''t think it''s relevant for the position the club is in now.

You could be right about whether the timing of the Premiership payments is relevant or not although I would think it''s of more importance than you do. I would still like to know the answer if anyone here knows.

 

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[quote user="Citizen Journalist Foghorn"]

[quote user="ricardo"]

The other side of the coin is that investment gaurantees nothing (Southampton). If you were a board member Mystic, would you have risked all on a promotion push, knowing that failure would put you in even deeper sh*!

[/quote]

Well, I notice Derby''s supposed ''Gamble'' is not mentioned anymore by the prudence brigade - I wonder why????  Also Southampton still have a very good squad going into next season.  We, on the other hand, have more or less the same failing tiny squad of the last two seasons - our first XI fully fit might be able to challenge for a play-off place, but beyond that we have nothing.

So next season Southampton will probably challenge again, and with a good season we might break into the top half of this division.

[/quote]

If you read my earlier post on this thread Foghorn you will see that I explicitly stated that Derby gambled and succeeded while Southampton gambled and failed.

Your views on Southamptons challenge next season are not backed up by their own supporters. If you go on their site you will see that they expect player sales in order to balance the books and mid-table obscurity.

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[quote user="nutty nigel"][quote user="Mr.Carrow"]

The figures quoted in the accounts are not assumptions Putney, they are facts. And that is what i base my opinion on. I also base it on the events of the last few seasons when we HAVE made a large profit in the transfer market whilst the squad has been weak and struggling and we have been benefiting from £7.1million per season parachute payments. Those payments have now ended but we have gained a £2million loan which according to the club means we are not forced to sell anyone, so the balance of probability would so far indicate that we won`t have much leeway in the transfer market and that we will make a big profit on Earnshaw and spend around half of it-as we did with Ashton, Francis, Green etc. There are hopes and rumours that there may be more to the new investment than meets the eye but i base my opinion on reality, not hopes and rumours.

I don`t know where you get the information that we pay wages above the average but the recent Deloitte and Touche report stated that Championship clubs pay an average of 72% of turnover on overall wages. Our turnover last year was about £25million and overall wages about £15million which puts us below the average. Its all in the accounts if you want to check. If you don`t have them i can give you a rundown and maybe we can have a more informed debate.

[/quote]

Well hi again Mr Carrow [:)]

I got dizzy going around in circles with you about this on another thread. I think you make some valid points and you yourself admitted our views are not far apart. I also concede that I don''t understand the accounts as well as you seem to although I would still say there is a healthy profit from off the field activities.

Maybe you could answer the question I have asked on three occasions now which is if the club don''t have any money at the end of May each year then how are they ever going to have money to spend in June and July in the transfer window? There could be very good reasons for this that I am too thick to understand so please try and be understanding in your reply [:P]

Another point that I don''t understand from your post is how you can have an informed debate about the state of the clubs finances when the only information you are using is from the season 2005/6. I would imagine things are very different this June compared to last June. However, I do totally agree with you though that for whatever reason, and I can''t recall hearing a reason from the Board, our attempts to strengthen the squad last summer were pathetic.

Another question I asked on this thread was if anybody knows when the "Premiership money" is paid to promoted clubs. It''s said to have been worth 50m for Derby County to win the play offs but do they get that money now, or August or next May? I know it''s of no relevence to us now but it could explain our reluctance to spend big on Ashton or Crouch in the summer of 2004.

 

[/quote]

Hi Nutty, yep we`re back on that merry-go-round again! I really don`t claim to know the accounts inside out and will always have a look at someone elses take on them-people like Ricardo and CambridgeCanary seem to know what they`re talking about. A good example is that Mystic reads a profit on players of £3.4million (i think) whilst the last time i checked i made it £6.1million. Mystic`s figure looks more likely though so i`m prepared to go with that. The figures for things like player and non-player wages and infrastructure costs are more explicit and speak for themselves i think.

On the Prem.payments i honestly don`t know when they are payed. All the accounts state is that we receive them at some point in that financial year. I would think that the fact that most promoted clubs spend a fair bit before the season starts would indicate that they receive at least some quite soon after promotion.

I must admit that the cash levels going forward are confusing and i don`t really understand them. Ricardo pointed out that the club had a "retained profit" of £6.4million as of 31st May `06. But the "cash at hand and in the bank" figure is about £1.2million. What is a retained profit if it`s not cash? Anyone else know?

Can`t wait till we can simply watch 22 oiks kick a white ball around again......!

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[quote user="Mr.Carrow"]

Nutty, yep we`re back on that merry-go-round again! I really don`t claim to know the accounts inside out and will always have a look at someone elses take on them-people like Ricardo and CambridgeCanary seem to know what they`re talking about. A good example is that Mystic reads a profit on players of £3.4million (i think) whilst the last time i checked i made it £6.1million. Mystic`s figure looks more likely though so i`m prepared to go with that. The figures for things like player and non-player wages and infrastructure costs are more explicit and speak for themselves i think.

[/quote]

Mr C, you''re not entirely wrong.  £6 million or so was the amount we received from player sales.  Subtract what we spent and you get the £3+ million figure, ie. profit.

A word of warning: CambridgeCanary is not the same person as Cambridge Canary.  Cambridge Canary I believe has a legal background, posts sparingly and talks a lot of sense.  CambridgeCanary also posts sparingly but seemed keen to squash this thread before it had begun, I''m not sure why.

  

 

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