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Beermachine

How does Norwich compete against £52+ million?

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I see that quite a few people are against foreign investments of any sort, so am wondering whether they have any other solutions to the fundamental problem that the team that finishes bottom of the Premiership in 2008 will receive £30million, plus two years of parachute payments totaling £22 million, with the relegated teams above them receiving more. Without a massive dose of luck in a season I cannot see any possible way that with our spending power we have any hope of buying anywhere near the number of quality of players and wages needed to compete against this. This is not even taking into account that these relegated teams will have far greater player assets that they will be able to keep hold of or cash in the ones who want to leave, thereby increasing their spending power even more (or if they hold onto most of there quality players and thus have large wages all of those players will be better than Norwich''s players). Add to this the problem of foreign investors who decide to buy into the Championship and spending big on quality players hoping to cash in by getting promoted and the situation looks even more bleak.

Outside investment has no hope of getting anywhere near these funds, you cannot expect a manager to pull some kind of tactical miracle out of the hat every game if the players he has to work with are fundamentally inferior to the opposition (and if he could then a club who can afford to pay higher wages than Norwich to their manager would have snapped him up already), and with every year that passes the problem gets exponentially worse.

The only solution I can possibly think of without the ''sugar daddy'' is massive investment into our youth system (something the scum did a while ago), with extensive youth scouting in the hope of either building up a good base of players to get us promoted in say 10+ years (you have to get them very early nowadays), or being lucky and finding the next Rooney, keeping hold of him long enough for his value to increase and then cashing him in to finance a whole team of adequate players who can compete against the above problems.

Just wondering whether anyone has any other ideas to help NCFC out of this dilemma that I cannot help for seeing, or whether I should just accept the inevitable fate that we will never again be a top club?

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I''d like to add that many clubs are taking the "gamblers" approach of investing these sums into players in the hope of getting promoted. Yes there are a lot more clubs competing for the 3 slots than can be promoted, but this pretty much means that any club that doesn''t take some financial risks has very little hope of getting promoted against the number of clubs taking the risk. Maybe the foreign investor issue will go bust, and if so, I cannot then forsee any foreign investor taking a risk on a club like Norwich when there are more financially attractive clubs to choose, leaving us with what exactly...?

What options would we then have to break out of this circle of decline?

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Just because there are greater sums of money swilling around, doesn''t neccesarily mean that the players are going to become better.  The players will certainly become richer though, especially when you consider the possibility of players "doing a Webster", or buying themselves out of a contract by paying the club wages for the duration of the contract.  Over time, this ruling could effect players contracts to the same extent as the Bosman ruling.    Certainly our buying power becomes diminished with all the extra money swilling around, if we don''t increase our revenue to compete.This situation should lead to greater importance being placed on academy graduates, if we don''t have the money to buy the players, we will have to grow them, which pretty much takes Norwich City full circle.  We''ve always been a selling club, as the sales of Sutton, Bellamy, Eadie and others show.  The other way to combat the imbalance is to get as many people with the buying power of Andrew Turner onto the board as soon as possible, I suppose, to give us the impetus to catch the Premiership train before it leaves the station.

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Prehaps every football fan  should  give up there sky subs that will leave sky  in a lot of poo trying to pay the prem teams ,but of course that will never happen .

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[quote user="Beermachine"]

The only solution I can possibly think of without the ''sugar daddy'' is massive investment into our youth system (something the scum did a while ago), with extensive youth scouting in the hope of either building up a good base of players to get us promoted in say 10+ years (you have to get them very early nowadays), or being lucky and finding the next Rooney, keeping hold of him long enough for his value to increase and then cashing him in to finance a whole team of adequate players who can compete against the above problems.

 

[/quote]

a fantastic comment!

this is exactly what Crewe have done for the past 30 years and longer...

Platt, Jones, Carragher, Ashton, are just 4 of the players who have gone onto acheive great things once leaving Gresty Road. all were picked up as youngsters.. they all played a part in Crewes History... getting the club into the championship, and making them millions when eventually moving on. Ashley Ward being a player who had a fair career after leaving the railway men.

 Crewe are, by their nature, a small club...they have survived in this very way.. and with Varney now looking as though he will be the next big money move out Crewes Future is assured for a few more seasons yet.. until the next youngster comes along.

 if a club our size can do this then just think where we could end up! we can unearth gems to take us up.. and if they dont we can sell them on at huge profits and plough the funds straight back into the team... if we used the Crewe Model.. a Manager who advocates youth, uses what he has got, and a scouting set up which many clubs envy we could go places.

 I read on a website a few months back (cant remember which one) that Crewe are only 2nd behind Manchester united at using and nuturing youth, with that youth becoming established in the first team or moving on...

Brighton are also now going down this road... earlier in the season they fielded a team containing 8 players born in and Around Brighton (there was a feature in 4-4-2 mag about it), the pride of the youngsters was clear for all to see.  Brighton have the option of Cashing in at any time on these youngsters.. a team in huge Financial debt, with no ground and a piddly attendance is planning for its future success and its long term stability.

Dare i say it look at Ipswich, Bent, Ambrose, Dyer, Bramble, all came through the youth ranks.. all left for a lot of money.. what rice Garvan, Bruce, Haynes all moving on.. wiping out even more of their debt.. when they are bought out by these mooted takeover, they could be serious players in the league with us being left behind....

 This is the way to go... we need to be plowing what money we can into an infrastructure of finding this talent with exceptional scouting. we can fly them to Norwich if needs be to get around the 60 minute travelling rule. its fine ahving the academy... but is it working? shackell, Jarvis, Hendo and Martin have all come through to be in and around the first team squad...

Grant is only now blooding new youth what good is an academy if we havent got the exceptional talent to push through it.... if the club are reading this i really hope they sit down with the people at Crewe, with the people at Brighton, even witht he people at Manchester United an ask them how do they do it??? how do they attract the talent? how do they make it so good? how (with the exception of untied) are they safe guarding their clubs futures with these kids...

and then to get in the people to make it happen at Colney... Money, Commitment, Passion, local pride.. we could have it all in 10 years if we act now to get that infrastructure in place.

 we should have a scout based in an office in every region of the country.. watching everything from Schools to youth clubs to other professional sides youth teams.. even wandering through the park walking the dog watching kids play football Talent is obvious! it might be a costly exercise.. but if we unearthed the next Rooney we would cover that cost... and if we developed to become on a par with Utd for producing talent and getting success through putting those players in the 1st team then so be it....

 Act Now Delia!

jas :)

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[quote user="barclayendboy"]Prehaps every football fan  should  give up there sky subs that will leave sky  in a lot of poo trying to pay the prem teams ,but of course that will never happen .
[/quote]

sky is a white elephant.. a cash coo.. it sucked people in and they fell for it hook line and sinker!

 Why pay for it??? how many stations have commercials.. i posted something about this a month or so back and wont repeat it.. suffice to say Sky has so many commercial channels it could (and SHOULD) be offering its service for free. i dont know if their accoutns are made public but i gaurentee they make more money from advertising then from subscriptions and if everyone handed back their sky dish the advertisers would pull out... if they made their service free tommorow then more people would watch it.. they would get more advertising.. and their profits would increase even more.

Sky could survive with just 1 subscriber if that person watched TV 24/7.. the advertisers would have their own unique customer to sell too via the messages in the ads!

jas :)

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Foreign investors are certainly very fashionable at the moment, but pragmatically their effect will not be as powerful as the reason why they are all flocking here - the new Premiership TV contract.

West Brom, Southampton, Birmingham and Sunderland have predominantly taken a gamble with their parachute payments rather than from any takeover. Wolves have made the playoffs by digging up a little money from somewhere which they have spent well. Derby have had that fresh investment injection.

You then have Aston Villa and West Ham who have hardly set the world alight since being bought (admittedly these are early days). Manchester United''s title success hasn''t really owed too much to the Glaziers, and Liverpool may manage to move one place up the league table following their newfound billions.

In my opinion, the only club to gain from such a takeover is Chelsea. (Portsmouth and Mandaric I find debatable on the basis that Harry Redknapp played a huge part in that club''s success. Leicester will be an interesting story over the next few seasons with Mandaric - will it be Harry-type success or Perrin-type chaos?). 

The pressure remains, as it always has, to get into the Premiership and when you make it to spend that money wisely. The board have secured two new boardmembers who are listed as richer than Wigan''s Dave Whelan. In trying to judge events before they happen, I think our Board have made a good move. If we spend what money/time we have well and make a good start to next season, you can then add to the squad again at that time.

That is, I believe, a proven route to Championship success. Teams have always been owned by loaded money-bags. It is just that the current fashion makes a good story. We should keep it in perspective I think.

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I couldn''t have put it better myself, I agree totally that with this "silly money" being thrown at the Premiership at the moment, it will be an endless cycle of the same teams going up, then coming down and then those exact same teams will go up again. No-one else will get a look in!

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Hopefully the play offs provide some chance for any Championship team.

With the huge gap in income it does seem as though 2 of the relegated 3 are likely to go back up automatically. However the play offs are cup games and so any of the teams could go up through these. Let''s see if there are moves to scrap the paly offs, or have 3 automatic places to keep the Premiership a closed shop..

Another factor that may work in favour of Championship teams is that one or more of the relegated teams could well self destruct. With players leaving, a high chance of a new manager, and continuing a losing streak (plenty of examples of this - some quite close to home) then there is a good chance one of the relegated teams will not reach the top 6.

Also as Blah said, more money will not lead to better players, but it could well attract more overseas players of a high quality.

52 million is a huge prize for any team going up..but betting 25 million and buying quality players is a very big risk to take.

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The closed shop premiership may well lead to countermoves by the football league however - if there do get to be 23-26 clubs endlessly in the prem or cycling round betchampionship being brought each year by the clubs with parachute payments - The actions they could take would likely be a wage cap on championship squads so that teams relegated from the prem would be forced to play championship wages - leading to a team again having to sell its best players on relegation.The wage cap would have to be carefuly worked out so that delayed payments could be stopped (ie paying champs wages on year, with a massive getting back to premiership bonus making up the difference.This would probably mean the promoted teams coming straight back down - but that would be the premier league''s problem with uncompetitiveness.

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Perhaps our "Outside interests ''R'' US" board, are setting the foundations to bring in more dosh to this fine property developing football club?

Scenario:

Maybe they''ll maintain the trend of the last 15 or so years, and purchase Laurence Scott''s land when they fold, sell Carrow Road to an interested developer for a huge sum ( including the Laurence Scott''s plot). Let''s face it folks, who wants a football club near to their affluent and chic apartment''s? The sale of the ground, car parks etc, plus the Lol Scott''s land - will be worth a considerable amount to the board/club. 

Move to the outskirts of the city and build a new stadium (Carter''s tender of course!) And, "because we''ve outgrown the present one" they''d say. Then, with a % of the land sale, to knock up a half decent arena to keep the faithful happy. I wonder though, if the dosh left over would be used to strengthen the squad...... 

You never know......I bet there''s quite a few business folk - who wouldn''t mind a piece of that.[^o)]

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Concerning the closed shop Premiership I cannot see the FA doing anything about it whatsoever (except maybe a token gesture that has no real impact), they proved to me a long time ago that they have sold their soul for money. They want the same teams in the Premiership, the same faces going down and reappearing as a club like Norwich coming up doesn''t exactly increase their income (ultimately due to viewing figures) as unfortunately we are not a supposed "big club" in their money tinted eyes. The West Ham case was the final nail in the coffin for me to confirm this, now they are even prepared to blatantly break their own rules to try and keep a club that they consider to be "worthy of top flight status" within the elite. As said by a few managers, had the situation been Wigan or Watford they would have taken the rug out from under them in a flash and cheerily waived them goodbye while brandishing the rule book.

No, we must look to our own for some way out from under the dark cloud that Sky has brought over the beautiful game (and I can''t blame them, they''re a company that is just doing it''s best to make as much profit as possible, capitalist society et al, the blame lies on football''s governing body that should be there to champion both the weak and the strong and not the wallet). The news of new investors was definitely a ray of hope, but the comment I read that the £2million that was invested was so that we don''t have to sell the crown jewels doesn''t inspire me with hope that they will be prepared to invest more to bring success to NCFC, more of a band aid to stop the flow of blood rather than an operation to fix the underlying causes. Hopely I''m wrong, time will tell.

I fear that even the cup situation of the playoffs may become the same as the automatic promotion places, with the same teams again and again playing the lottery, and having a lot of luck in a season isn''t something I particularly want to always have to wish for.

Sorry about the gloom of I posts, I was really wishing for someone to come up with a genius idea or proving me wrong so I could dispel the negative thoughts that has crept into my soul concerning this situation :)

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Also, more money doesn''t mean better players it is true, but in this day and age the player power''s is the greatest factor, and unless a player has some underlying reasons (lives in the area, supported NCFC as a child etc) they will always go where they can get the highest wages, which means the richer clubs. All the clubs are scouting the same players after all, so at the end of the day unless you take a "gamble" on a player that could go either way, the richer clubs will always be able to entice the players whose guarenteed ability is greater. Given that wages seem to be overriding factor nowadays, even when underlying factors apply, 99 times out of 100 a player will go where the money is.

There is another controversial idea I''ve come up with, target one specific country, say in Eastern Europe, Nigeria (probably not those due to being fashionable, say Chili, Mexico, Belgium etc, anywhere where the players value and wage demands are much less than what they would be if they were British, who lets face it are quite often overpriced based on ability because they are guarenteed not to have an issue and risk adapting to England''s style of play). Devote all scouting efforts to that country and build an entire team up composed of them (risky, but would greatly lessen the climatisation factor if all there team mates were from the same country, and the manager to boot!), give them a year or two to adjust to the Championship and hope. I wouldn''t like it, but maybe a solution without putting Norwich into the poor house.....

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[quote user="Beermachine"]

Also, more money doesn''t mean better players it is true, but in this day and age the player power''s is the greatest factor, and unless a player has some underlying reasons (lives in the area, supported NCFC as a child etc) they will always go where they can get the highest wages, which means the richer clubs. All the clubs are scouting the same players after all, so at the end of the day unless you take a "gamble" on a player that could go either way, the richer clubs will always be able to entice the players whose guarenteed ability is greater. Given that wages seem to be overriding factor nowadays, even when underlying factors apply, 99 times out of 100 a player will go where the money is.

There is another controversial idea I''ve come up with, target one specific country, say in Eastern Europe, Nigeria (probably not those due to being fashionable, say Chili, Mexico, Belgium etc, anywhere where the players value and wage demands are much less than what they would be if they were British, who lets face it are quite often overpriced based on ability because they are guarenteed not to have an issue and risk adapting to England''s style of play). Devote all scouting efforts to that country and build an entire team up composed of them (risky, but would greatly lessen the climatisation factor if all there team mates were from the same country, and the manager to boot!), give them a year or two to adjust to the Championship and hope. I wouldn''t like it, but maybe a solution without putting Norwich into the poor house.....

[/quote]

Mexico would be a good place to look.. only Brazil and Germany have qualified for more World cups than Mexico...

jas :)

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Can''t say as I really agree with that suggestion Jas.Mexico may have qualified for the majority of world cups, but given that the only major competition in their qualifying group comes from the USA, it''s hardly a stunning acheivement.Also, out of the current Mexican national squad, if we''re honest, only Rafael Marquez stands out particularly, and aside from a couple of other players over the years, the only other Mexican player of real note was the fantastic Hugo Sanchez, so the odds of finding top talent over there are not great.The US however is certainly somewhere to keep an eye on, as the profile of football over there just keeps improving, and with the number of potential players coming through due to the population of the US, we could easily see them becoming a dominant force in world football over the next 10-15 years.

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The problem with bringing in players from foreign countries is that if they are not in the EU you need a work permit - thus an established international player or won that has got a european residency in another EU country (belgium/spain beging notable ways in [see Eboue and Gonzales]) and these player have reasonablely high wages and transfer fee by this point.Thus it is probably better to go for eastern europeans - like a lot of football league teams do (soton, plymouth etc.)

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[quote user="7rew"]
Thus it is probably better to go for eastern europeans - like a lot of football league teams do (soton, plymouth etc.)
[/quote]

Such as Italians...

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[quote user="Web Team - Pete"]

[quote user="7rew"]
Thus it is probably better to go for eastern europeans - like a lot of football league teams do (soton, plymouth etc.)
[/quote]

Such as Italians...

[/quote]

No, no Pete. We mean the really poor ones... [;)]

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Damn no edit function, would have added the obvious WP issues with non EU Countries nut didn''t want to seem like a spammer with 3 posts in a row! Sadly we had probably missed the boat on the popular Eastern European countries, their value and wages are rapidly rising beyond our means as they are getting woed by a lot of other clubs. Get some creative (and hopefully not lazy) internationals from a less obvious and popular country and the rest from EU. Also, what about being proactive and sending a few scouts to possible future EU countries? Turkey would be a great place to at least keep an eye on and get a leg up on other teams if they ever get their act together.

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Concerning the Mexican comment, yes they are not exceptional players by any means, but if they were then we''d have no chance of getting them anyway. Being honest though, how many of NCFC''s current players (discounting climatisation issues etc) would get into the Mexican International team?

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