Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
BlyBlyBabes

Not very clever, eh Roger.

Recommended Posts

First 9 matches this season under Worthington (i.e. before the ultimatum)

Played  9  Won 3  Drawn 1  Lost 5   GF  14   GA  14   GD  0    Points  10

Last 9 matches thyis season under Grant

Played  9  Won 3  Drawn 1  Lost 5  GF  9     GA   15   GD  -6   Points  10

Red stands for warning Roger.

OTBC

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Yet more interesting stats that show that this so called improvement under Grant is an myth BBB.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Why are you so surprised??? He''s working with the same set of players (give or take one or two) AND without Earnshaw!

Grant needs a summer''s transfer window before the knives go in. If we are not in the top six by this time next year he must be pushed out but only then. Saying that I don''t want any more stupid transfer excuses from PG - other clubs are over-valuing their players, players want too high wages, NCFC can''t compete with other clubs financially etc etc etc ...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="Konstantin Pobedonostsev"]

Why are you so surprised??? He''s working with the same set of players (give or take one or two) AND without Earnshaw!

Grant needs a summer''s transfer window before the knives go in. If we are not in the top six by this time next year he must be pushed out but only then. Saying that I don''t want any more stupid transfer excuses from PG - other clubs are over-valuing their players, players want too high wages, NCFC can''t compete with other clubs financially etc etc etc ...

[/quote]

Rubbish Rubbish, its no good blaming everything on Worthington and the fact that Grant is using Worthington''s players. Grant has shown that he does not have the ability to motivate the current squad of players. The players are still performing to a p*** poor standard under Grant and as I''ve mentioned previously look at what Keane has achieved at Sunderland. Grant is out of his depth and is only in place because he is Delia''s puppet. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

personally I am fully behind Grant for the time being, but he has no CLUB MANAGEMENT experience.  Just coaching, not quite the same.  His judgement on players already looks flawed, tactically he looks niave.

Anyway, he deserves at least until January to show that he is capable of turning this around.

 

unfortunatly Mumbles thinks our ''cleverness'' (not seen much clever from NCFC these last 3 years.) and management talent (not seen much of that these last 3 years either)  is what will drive us up the table, hence why we are slipping downwards so quickly I guess...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

But Grants first 9 games were all pre transfer window so really Grant was working with (and still is) Worthys players.

Grant has now taken massive steps by clearing out deadwood (like you all wanted) which will allow him to make the team his own.

Yes i believe in freedom of speech etc but this board is now gettin boring and over run by negative posters.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="Citizen Journalist Foghorn"]

we have more management talent than the rest tho......

donk in midfield!!

we have cleverer managemnet talent....

Martin on the wing

and again....

Fozzy the new Safri...

Robinson better than Safri....

 

Actually wait a minute, no we don''t.

[/quote]

Of course yet again you  choose to ignore the most ridiculous decision of all. Why play our best centreforward in defence, wait until we go 3-0 down and move him up front where he should have been in the first place!

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

[quote user="nutty nigel"]

Of course yet again you  choose to ignore the most ridiculous decision of all. Why play our best centreforward in defence, wait until we go 3-0 down and move him up front where he should have been in the first place!

 

[/quote]

Well, we won''t have to worry about that one anymore will we. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="Citizen Journalist Foghorn"]

[quote user="nutty nigel"]

Of course yet again you  choose to ignore the most ridiculous decision of all. Why play our best centreforward in defence, wait until we go 3-0 down and move him up front where he should have been in the first place!

 

[/quote]

Well, we won''t have to worry about that one anymore will we. 

[/quote]

Why not? The principal is still the same!

And you can''t blame Doherty for the two first half goals that helped put the game out of reach. Having Safri in midfield wouldn''t have made any difference either. I am convinced you never watch matches to see where the mistakes are made but just have a ready made list of scapegoats.

Having Dublin in defence has not made our defence better and I defy anyone to produce evidence that it has. Putting him up front when we are 3-0 down is a clear case of shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted. Surely the evidence is the final score.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="nutty nigel"][quote user="Citizen Journalist Foghorn"]

[quote user="nutty nigel"]

Of course yet again you  choose to ignore the most ridiculous decision of all. Why play our best centreforward in defence, wait until we go 3-0 down and move him up front where he should have been in the first place!

 

[/quote]

Well, we won''t have to worry about that one anymore will we. 

[/quote]

Why not? The principal is still the same!

And you can''t blame Doherty for the two first half goals that helped put the game out of reach. Having Safri in midfield wouldn''t have made any difference either. I am convinced you never watch matches to see where the mistakes are made but just have a ready made list of scapegoats.

Having Dublin in defence has not made our defence better and I defy anyone to produce evidence that it has. Putting him up front when we are 3-0 down is a clear case of shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted. Surely the evidence is the final score.

[/quote]

I was implying that Dion Dublin won''t be here next year.

 

Anyway I thought massive wages Doherty was injured, Halliday not good enough for Torquay so Grant had no choice??

You are right though, the side picked

Warner, Hughes, Dublin, Shackell, Drury, Fotheringham, Etuhu, Spillane, Lappin, Earnshaw, Huckerby.

has no balance or shape to it, players not good enough at this level, little variation up front relying on passing football, not the long balls the rest of the squad are masters of.  I didnt see the game, and havent seen the goals, but get the impression we well deserved to be 3 nil down from the radio commentary.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="can u sit down please"]

But Grants first 9 games were all pre transfer window so really Grant was working with (and still is) Worthys players.

Grant has now taken massive steps by clearing out deadwood (like you all wanted) which will allow him to make the team his own.

Yes i believe in freedom of speech etc but this board is now gettin boring and over run by negative posters.

[/quote]

Why don''t you stop embarrassing yourself?

The initial post referred to the last 9 games of the season

Boy, do we  have to suffer for freedom of speech!

OTBC

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="Citizen Journalist Foghorn"][quote user="nutty nigel"][quote user="Citizen Journalist Foghorn"]

[quote user="nutty nigel"]

Of course yet again you  choose to ignore the most ridiculous decision of all. Why play our best centreforward in defence, wait until we go 3-0 down and move him up front where he should have been in the first place!

 

[/quote]

Well, we won''t have to worry about that one anymore will we. 

[/quote]

Why not? The principal is still the same!

And you can''t blame Doherty for the two first half goals that helped put the game out of reach. Having Safri in midfield wouldn''t have made any difference either. I am convinced you never watch matches to see where the mistakes are made but just have a ready made list of scapegoats.

Having Dublin in defence has not made our defence better and I defy anyone to produce evidence that it has. Putting him up front when we are 3-0 down is a clear case of shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted. Surely the evidence is the final score.

[/quote]

I was implying that Dion Dublin won''t be here next year.

 

Anyway I thought massive wages Doherty was injured, Halliday not good enough for Torquay so Grant had no choice??

You are right though, the side picked

Warner, Hughes, Dublin, Shackell, Drury, Fotheringham, Etuhu, Spillane, Lappin, Earnshaw, Huckerby.

has no balance or shape to it, players not good enough at this level, little variation up front relying on passing football, not the long balls the rest of the squad are masters of.  I didnt see the game, and havent seen the goals, but get the impression we well deserved to be 3 nil down from the radio commentary.

[/quote]

Of course he had a choice! We went 3-0 down and then he put Spillane at the back and Dublin up front. Wasn''t that option available from the start? The game finished 3-2 so surely the evidence is in the final score.

There''s no way Sheffield were ever three goals better than us. Please note I am not saying we were unlucky though. That''s why it''s so frustrating! This team is better than people give them credit for BUT they just seem to have to self destruct.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

[quote user="nutty nigel"]

Of course he had a choice! We went 3-0 down and then he put Spillane at the back and Dublin up front. Wasn''t that option available from the start? The game finished 3-2 so surely the evidence is in the final score.

There''s no way Sheffield were ever three goals better than us. Please note I am not saying we were unlucky though. That''s why it''s so frustrating! This team is better than people give them credit for BUT they just seem to have to self destruct.

[/quote]

Grant explains his decision on Waghorn''s site:

It is, you always sensed, where Mother Nature always intended the 38-year-old to play, but given Grant''s sorry lack of alternatives at centre-half, once either Gary Doherty or Jason Shackell gets injured so his only other viable option was to play teenager Michael Spillane in there - which is where the Republic of Ireland Under-19 international found himself for the last half-hour.

“That''s ideally where I''d like to be playing him (Dion),” admitted Grant. “But I can''t take the chance of putting the young midfield player back and playing centre-half for us earlier in the game against good players. Burton, Tudgay and MacLean when he comes on.

“But once we did that, there''s only one team in it.”

http://www.rickwaghorn.co.uk/full_article.asp?i=1279&w=0&a=0&part=1

Grant seems to blame the ever worsening Captain Drury in the article as apparantly he had a poor game.  Not a great way to celebrate your new 4 year deal...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="Citizen Journalist Foghorn"]

[quote user="nutty nigel"]

Of course he had a choice! We went 3-0 down and then he put Spillane at the back and Dublin up front. Wasn''t that option available from the start? The game finished 3-2 so surely the evidence is in the final score.

There''s no way Sheffield were ever three goals better than us. Please note I am not saying we were unlucky though. That''s why it''s so frustrating! This team is better than people give them credit for BUT they just seem to have to self destruct.

[/quote]

Grant explains his decision on Waghorn''s site:

It is, you always sensed, where Mother Nature always intended the 38-year-old to play, but given Grant''s sorry lack of alternatives at centre-half, once either Gary Doherty or Jason Shackell gets injured so his only other viable option was to play teenager Michael Spillane in there - which is where the Republic of Ireland Under-19 international found himself for the last half-hour.

“That''s ideally where I''d like to be playing him (Dion),” admitted Grant. “But I can''t take the chance of putting the young midfield player back and playing centre-half for us earlier in the game against good players. Burton, Tudgay and MacLean when he comes on.

“But once we did that, there''s only one team in it.”

http://www.rickwaghorn.co.uk/full_article.asp?i=1279&w=0&a=0&part=1

Grant seems to blame the ever worsening Captain Drury in the article as apparantly he had a poor game.  Not a great way to celebrate your new 4 year deal...

[/quote]

But after he did take the chance it could be said we won 2-0.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="nutty nigel"][quote user="Citizen Journalist Foghorn"]

we have more management talent than the rest tho......

donk in midfield!!

we have cleverer managemnet talent....

Martin on the wing

and again....

Fozzy the new Safri...

Robinson better than Safri....

 

Actually wait a minute, no we don''t.

[/quote]

Of course yet again you  choose to ignore the most ridiculous decision of all. Why play our best centreforward in defence, wait until we go 3-0 down and move him up front where he should have been in the first place!

 [/quote]

Trouble is N, our best centre forward is also our best centre back. And i''m not sure i agree he''s our best - unless you mean centre forward as in traditional target man centre forward as opposed to alternative type strikers like hucks, earnie or martin.

We see eye to eye on many things but we''re never going to agree on Donkerty are we! Yes he''s capable of playing well, and did so along with the rest of the team in August and during Grant''s Honeymoon period but doesn''t everyone when a new manager has just come in?

So to try and settle this, i''ve done some research and here''s my season report on the Doc and the Dub!

The Doc featured in the games in black September (3 defeats, 10 goals conceded in 4) followed by THAT Burnley game at the start of October where he was sent off. For wrestling a player to the ground. Again.

Then came the honeymoon period for the new manager, starting with 3-3 at QPR and a goal for Dublin coming on up front but 3 conceded with Doherty in the defence. This was followed by 1-0 wins against Brum and Cardiff with the Doc in defence for both and earning a Man of the Match award v Cardiff. Dublin didn''t feature at all in these games other than as a last minute sub v Cardiff.

But the honeymoon period following Grant''s appointment came to an infamous end at Stoke with Doherty in a defence that conceded 5 and Dublin in a front line that drew a blank. Doherty was injured in the next game against Colchester (1-1) which gave Dublin his debut for city in defence, against Sunderland. A 1-0 win and Man of the Match. He played there again in the next game against West Brom away. 1-0 again. Dublin sat out the next game however, Ipswich away. Say no more. Except perhaps that you-know-who was in defence and Dublin was brought on in attack with the game at 1-1.

Dublin played the next four games after Ipswich in defence against Hull, Leicester, Sunderland and Sheff Wednesday. Results were DWLL. 5 were conceded in those 4 games but Dublin himself scored twice (Leicester and Sheff W) and got man of the match twice against Hull and Sheffield Wednesday. A decent individual return by anyone''s standards.

Doherty was back for the next game against Southampton, alongside Dublin, and we lost 2-1. Then, as if to illustrate both our points, Dublin played up front for the next 3 games consecutively (Wolves, Southend, QPR), scoring and  getting MotM against QPR. We conceded 2 in these games, all drawn, with Doc in defence. It was back to losing ways again against Palace, with Dublin not starting and City having conceded 3 by half time with Doherty in defence. Dublin came on up front after half time but could not find the net. He failed to score again next up, away at Plymouth playing up front with McVeigh while Doherty featured in a defence that had now conceded 6 in 2. Dublin didn''t play in the home defeat to Wolves but he and Doherty presided over the 2-1 defeat of Leeds from the back. Dublin and Shackell performed superbly at the back in the cup game against Chelsea, keeping them at bay to be only 1-0 down at half time. After they scored their second, Dublin moved up front and we conceded two more late on, admittedly whilst playing a slightly suicidal 3-4-3 formation with only hughes, shackell and drury for cover at the back.

Back to league duties away at Deepdale and Dublin was preferred in defence but lasted just 23 minutes after which Doherty took his place in defence. We conceded 5 minutes later and went on to lose 2-1. Dublin was then out for the games against Coventry, Luton and Barnsley (DWW) in which Doherty featured in defence in those games but the wins owed more to a Darren Huckerby resurgence, with the laughable defensive shortcomings against Luton overshadowed only by managing to score 3 of our own for the first time in 13 games. Dublin was sent on in attacking roles in the following two defeats to Derby and Cardiff, Doherty featuring in defence both times. Dublin''s defensive role was required in late substitute appearances in the next two 1-0 home wins against Birmingham and Stoke. Doherty was a constant in defence in these two defeats and two wins - but which substitute appearances from Dublin look the most effective? The two attacking ones or the two defensive ones? Next up, it was the first start featuring both of them in 8 games, Doc in defence and Dublin up front with Martin.  Colchester the opponents. 3-0 defeat. Much the same side won away at Hull 2-1 and lost at home to West Brom by the same score, this time with Dublin again coming on for his customary 35-40 miuntes in an attacking role. With Doherty out for the next game against Leicester, Dublin came in for his first start in defence since the Deepdale game and again as part of a severely depleted squad for the game at Burnley. The Leicester game we won 2-1 while the Burnley one was the first game where we conceded more than 2 with Dublin in a defensive role, in a game that featured a 21 year old, a 20 year old and 3 teenagers.Doherty remained out for the final 3 games of the season where Dublin took his place in each, featuring in the draw with Ipswich, securing a man of the match award in the 1-0 defeat to Southampton and scoring against Wednesday after a reshuffle that saw him pushed up front. He showed his attacking abilities in this game and masterminded a recovery from the front in the way he presided over some equally fine defensive displays. The Wednesday game should not hide the fact though that he has scored no more goals playing up front than he has playing at the back. Or that he has secured all but one of his 5 man of the match displays whilst playing at the back. I think one can reasonably see from this that on balance, through the season, DD has been more effective at the back. We''ve won more proportionately with him at the back and he hasn''t manged to score while up front any more than he has managed to score while at the back. Three from each position. That''s not to say he hasn''t been effective up front on occasions, on the contrary. But many of us have looked at the different defensive combinations when some of our heaviest defeats have come with a combination of Dublin up front and Doherty at the back. Also telling, is that with DD at the back we have conceded 3 or more on

two occasions. Once at Burnely with aformentioned squad of children, and on the last day of the season. With Doherty at the back we conceded 3 or more on

a staggering TEN occasions!And here are the stats. With Dublin in a defensive role (inc 2 sub appearances at 72 and 80mins):P13---W6---L5---D2 46% win ratio, 38.5% loss ratio3 Goals, 5 Man of the Match displaysWith Doherty in defence:P35---W12---L15---D70 Goals, 1 Man of the Match display34% win ratio, 43% loss ratioWith Dublin in an attacking role (inc 5 sub appearances at 61, 66, 53, 72 and 54 mins):P16---W2---L10---D43 Goals, 1 Man of the Match displayThis is the real killer stat - i think he can do a job up front when needed, but as his best position? 2 wins and 10 defeats suggests not. P.S. This is a bit long isn''t it. I should get out more. [:$]

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Good post A1 and you make some good points too.

Earlier in the season I read a post on here saying Fleming was the weakest link in our defence and whenever he played we conceded more goals. I was all set to go ''off on one'' in defence of our club captain because I thought he could still do a job for us but fortunately I checked the stats and found that the poster was right. It was then I realised that our first choice back four of Colin-Doherty-Shackell-Drury had performed best. Remember when Peter Grant took over and he watched the game at QPR where Flem had played because The Doc was banned after THAT sending off.  Grant said that he was going to play Fleming at Birmingham but Hunter and Livermore talked him out of it. Grant''s first game, that 1-0 win at Birmingham was just about our best defensive performance for me, equal to Sunderland at home but better because we are talking Norwich away here! And Doherty was MOM like Dublin was at home to Sunderland.

I remember a few months ago ZLF also researched the stats and came to the conclusion that Doherty was an illogical scapegoat and certainly wasn''t the weakest link. At that time I gave up on trying to prove who were our best back four because I came to the conclusion that the goalkeeper was the weakest link. And then we chopped and changed keepers to a ridiculous extent but to be fair to Grant the position appeared jinxed.

Drury has come in for a lot of stick just lately because we have been conceding lots of goals from the left. Drury hasn''t been playing as well as we know he can and at times he has had to defend that side without a proper midfielder in front of him, but Drury also sometimes gets the blame when Shackell loses his man on the left side.Shackell is still young for a centreback and is still learning. he has to make his mistakes in the first team because we can''t afford to send a player of his abilities on loan to make mistakes for someone else as has happened with players like Davenport. I believe that our best CD pairing would have been Doherty and Dublin but that would have been plain wrong because Shackell needs games.

Now a bit about Doherty.  He is ungainly and his body language is poor. He certainly doesn''t look the part and he often appears to be ''cuddling'' the guy he is marking. Yes he wrestled his man to the ground against Burnley in front of the nation on Sky TV and rightfully got sent off. But to say he did it again would imply he had done it before which of course isn''t the case. His disciplinary record is quite good and compares well with other defenders at this and other clubs. Remember piswich away when the referee continual penalised Lee for fouling The Doc and yet posters on here said it was The Doc fouling Lee! The Doc has 3 yellows this season, Shackell has 9! In defence of Doherty it should also be pointed out that we have conceded more goals from freekicks given away by Dublin and Shackell. The only one we conceded from a freekick given away by The Doc was widely regarded as a refereeing error. I can''t always defend him though and anyone who saw the second goal at palace on NYD would find it impossible to defend what happened as The Doc held on the the ball for too long panicked and was robbed of the ball, left on his arse and then took out the covering defender (Hughes?) as he got up. Pure comedy except a goal against is never funny!

Now a bit about Dublin. He has brought leadership and strength of character to our team. Two qualities that I feel are not Doherty''s strong points. But these qualities are still there wherever he plays and I believe he is better up front. (you were right of course I meant our best centreforward in the Iwan type mould) He still defends corners and set pieces but he is a great outlet when we are under pressure especially away from home. On Sunday we moved him up front at 0-3 and got back to 2-3. And it could be seen that Dion enjoys playing there far more.

I definiteley should get out more [;)]

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...