England

[Smudger 0]

[quote user="mbncfc"]

Sadly, England chose a talking shop for manager rather than the required broom. I''m sure Steve McClaren produced an excellent powerpoint presentation when he was interviewed, but the fact was better coaches were ignored. Considering that most England fans felt they had been burned by the previous regime, to then appoint his assistance was a very stupid idea and showed a painful lack of awareness.

There is no competition for places at international level. The only reason a player will be dropped under McClaren is if there is enought media pressure. What kind of a manager does that make him? There are enough players around to have serious competition in the squad. However, most of these players are ignored - a lot of them have been mentioned in this thread already, and the U21 side is a further example.

Finally, I think we avoid playing to our strengths. If we played at the pace and ferocity of the Premiership at international level and could impose ourselves on games, we do have the quality to beat the majority of teams. I think genuine competition for places would at least encourage some urgency in those who make it onto the pitch.

To be honest though, it isn''t even in the same ball park to Norwich, so I don''t really care.

[/quote]

Yep... absolutely spot on mbncfc!!!

When has that fact ever been any different however???

Until we have a manager that is his own man in the mould of an Alf Ramsey or Cloughie then we have no chance...

The best that we have had in a manager being their own man and ignoring pressure from the FA and the media since Ramsey have been Robson and Venables...  No coincidence that the closest we have come to winning anything since 66'' was under both of these guys (both of whom had limited talent on offer to them when compared to what is available to any prospective England manager today).

[GJP 79]

[quote user="Cobain18"]

no no GJP, i do know these players, so i presume that either you don''t know these players OR as i suspected you have a highly inflated deluded idea of the England national team players skill. The English media make sure that every England fan does, everyone needs to get this idea out of their head that we are that good. Robinson is not world class, Rooney is only 20 and dissapoints more than produces, we don''t have a top class let alone world class partner for him. We do not have a world class left winger, Aaron Lennon has not proven himself to be world class, his dribbling is awesome but he lacks a final ball, gerrard is world class in CENTRAL midfield, the amount of goals Lampard scores at club level is world class but he is not an all round world class midfielder and does not score for England. I could go on but the fact is whatever anyone says, we are not individually good enuf!

Oh and btw Ronaldo has been top class a Milan, and yes I have seen him so I suggest you watch him and a few other players I mentioned GJP

[/quote]

You definitely make some good points about where England fall short, however, nobody is perfect and there isn''t an international side out there without it''s faults.

You only have to look back at Brazils tame efforts at the WC to see that all those big name stars don''t always do what they''re supposed to.

I don''t ''have a highly inflated deluded idea of the England national team players skill'' because a little bit of common sense will tell you that most of those players play for big big clubs at a very high level and therefore those players have got quality and ability without question.

All Englands problems stem from the manager, in my opinion. We''ve got the players, without doubt, to cause any team in the world problems but we need someone incharge who can make it work.

And also I think if you read what I say about players and how I pick strengths and weaknesses in their game it''d be fairly clear that I know a bit about what I''m talking about. I mean you suggest that I should watch some of the players you mentioned but if you go back to my previous post you can clearly see that I can pick out a few players and give an opinion on them.

I just like to try and see things a bit more evenly, but if you want to carry on thinking that every other country in the world has a world class player in every position then you do that.

[GJP 79]

[quote user="Smudger"]

Fred is more than pretty good in my opinion!!!

[/quote]

Yeah I think Fred is a pretty nifty player. I haven''t watched him loads and loads though so I won''t pretend that I know all about him. Got some good touches on him though and knows where the goal is, will be interesting to see if he goes to play in 1 of the big boys leagues.

[Shack Attack 0]

[quote user="Smudger"]

So why in your humble opinion are Taylor, Bentley, Huddlestone and Barton any better equipped than Lescott, Jagielka, Sidwell and Ashley Young?

To me swap one set of 4 for the others and you would not see a drastic change in the capabilities of your side/squad.

[/quote]

I don''t think Barton particularly great, my original post said that I wanted him in the squad purely to wind up Lampard. Check the press, it''s been widely reported that they don''t get on.

The reason I think Taylor, Bentley and Huddlestone (Bentley in particular) are better equipped than the other players you mentioned is because to me they look a lot more comfortable on the ball. Bentley in particular is not what you would describe as a "typically English style player". Right now that''s what I think we need, more flair and less reliance on passion and graft.

[AP16 0]

Whether this is true or not remains to be seen.....but I can''t actually believe he''s going to do it? surely not?

England boss Steve McClaren will drop midfielder Owen Hargreaves in order to play a more attacking side in Wednesday''s Euro 2008 qualifier against Andorra. (Various)

 

I can''t believe he''s going to drop Hargreaves ahead of Lampard? I just can''t get my head round it. Fat Frank has been piss poor for England for a while now whereas Hargreaves has probably been the most solid midfielder in there for the last 12 months when he hasn''t been injured.

 

Personally, My line up tonight would be....

 

                                 Foster

 

                    Terry               Ferdinand

Carragher                                                  Barry

 

                              Hargreaves

Lennon                                                    Dyer

                               Gerrard

                      Rooney

                                                Johnson

 

Both wingers have the pace and ability to really get at the opposition defence and attack them. The strength through the middle of the team is also apparent in Gerrard who has a more attacking role due to Hargreaves'' defensive duties. This also means we haven''t got one attacking midfielder trying to defend instead of do what they do best and attack. Rio and Terry are the usual back bone of the team, and with current injuries Carragher and Barry would start at full back. I''m sick of Robinson, he''s overweight, unfit and dodgy. Foster did very well against Spain and should be given a go.

 

Rooney holds a ''gascoigne-esque'' role just behind Johnson who is able to do what he does best, get on the shoulder of the last man and put the ball in the net. For me, that looks a lot stronger than anything McClaren has tried recently.

[Shack Attack 0]

[quote user="Safri15"]

Whether this is true or not remains to be seen.....but I can''t actually believe he''s going to do it? surely not?

England boss Steve McClaren will drop midfielder Owen Hargreaves in order to play a more attacking side in Wednesday''s Euro 2008 qualifier against Andorra. (Various)

[/quote]

I can sort of understand it to be honest. There really should be no need to play a defensive midfielder against Andorra so he''s lining up with Lampard who''s a bit more attack minded. McLaren should have taken Hargreaves off at half time agaainst Israel really as it was obvious that they offered no attacking threat, he may be one of our better players but there''s no need for him to be on the pitch in that sort of situation. Lampard has been dreadful for England for the past couple of years and fully deserves to be dropped but I can see why he''s likely to retain his place for this game.

Has anybody else noticed how certain newspapers are starting to prepare their ''McLaren Out, Venables In'' campaigns in the last couple of days? Quite interesting really. It started off with the picture from the end of the Israel game where the two of them were about 20 yards apart as they left the pitch, then we had ''sources close to Venables'' saying he felt unwanted and then the revelation that although the 3-5-2 against Croatia was Venables idea the resultant mess was McLaren''s fault because he picked the wrong players. I give it two weeks max until one of the newspapers prints the first headline calling for McLaren to be sacked and replaced with Venables. Personally I think this has been the plan all along, and although I''d be more than happy to see McLaren get the boot I don''t really think we should be looking to replace him with aman who''s done nothing in the game for about ten years.

[Cobain18 0]

I dont think that every other team in the world has world class players, i think that there are easily four or five teams in the world who are better than England - for this reason we will never win anything because we don''t have the quality of players they have. I think that the reason English players are so well known and everyone loves them is because most of them play in the premier league (the most exciting league in the world) However they play around foreign players, the majority of who are the best in the world. The English media do not seem to apprreciate a foreign player that plays abroad as they know less about them and theyre less household names in Britain, this doesn''t make them any less of a player. Take Fred as Smudger said, he is an awesome player but isn''t given as much credit as English players because people don''t see him week in and week out 

[Smudger 0]

[quote user="Shack Attack"][quote user="Smudger"]

So why in your humble opinion are Taylor, Bentley, Huddlestone and Barton any better equipped than Lescott, Jagielka, Sidwell and Ashley Young?

To me swap one set of 4 for the others and you would not see a drastic change in the capabilities of your side/squad.

[/quote]

I don''t think Barton particularly great, my original post said that I wanted him in the squad purely to wind up Lampard. Check the press, it''s been widely reported that they don''t get on.

The reason I think Taylor, Bentley and Huddlestone (Bentley in particular) are better equipped than the other players you mentioned is because to me they look a lot more comfortable on the ball. Bentley in particular is not what you would describe as a "typically English style player". Right now that''s what I think we need, more flair and less reliance on passion and graft.

[/quote]

Fair enough... I like your slant on Barton in particular (because if two players need a kick up the @rse in the England set up then it is Lampard and Ashley Cole imo).

Also agree that Bentley should be given a crack of the whip...

I think the team needs more balance though... people that will shed blood, sweat and tears for their country (or any team that they pull a shirt on for) and that have a fair bit of quality on the ball too et la Barton or preferably Jagielka/Sidwell need to be included for me.

Taylor I agree should rival Wayne Bridge for the left-back spot.

Ashley Young could be another option to playing Lennon (similar types of player in my book)... maybe Lennon is a little more creative while Young seems to be able to find his way to hitting the back of the net a little more often.

If we can get a manager with forthright views and blen a mix of flair and passion then we could rival any team in the world....

There is currently only one fella man enough for the England job imo and that fella is Martin O''Neill.  He will never get the job however because the FA are too anal about it... they fear giving O''Neill the job just as they feared giving it to Cloughie...  So it is unlikely that England will ever manage to win anything (no matter how good the players are that we are churning off the conveyer belt).

[Evil Monkey 52]

The Lampard debate is irrelevant now, he''s out with a limp, erm sorry, broken wrist...http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/internationals/6497817.stmI don''t wish injury on a player, but this news made me slightly happier... [;)]

[7rew 0]

Well at least Lampard won''t be playing.  I hope the team looks

alto better tonight than normal, it may persuade McLaren to keep it

that way.

My team for tonight, in the second most important international being played:

                    Robinson

Richards Woodgate  Terry    Barry

                  Hargreaves

Lennon              

              Downing

                    Gerrard   

             Rooney    

                         Johnson

Would use Downing because the pitch is narrow, so a left footer is needed.  Use Barry to give him experience.

Note andorra play 5-4-1 so the defense needn''t be as strong as normal

I do agree with smudger for the first and very possibly only time ever.

btw Come on Healy, lets have another hattrick against the swede''s  tonight.

[Mook 0]

Funny thing about this argument is that 1 year ago, 99.999% of people who are absolutely certain they know better would not have had Owen Hargreaves in the squad, let alone in their first 11.

I agree, there''s a lot of crap in our squad, but the only answer is to pick a team with balance and motivate the players properly.

[GJP 79]

[quote user="Cobain18"]I dont think that every other team in the world has world class players, i think that there are easily four or five teams in the world who are better than England - for this reason we will never win anything because we don''t have the quality of players they have. I think that the reason English players are so well known and everyone loves them is because most of them play in the premier league (the most exciting league in the world) However they play around foreign players, the majority of who are the best in the world. The English media do not seem to apprreciate a foreign player that plays abroad as they know less about them and theyre less household names in Britain, this doesn''t make them any less of a player. Take Fred as Smudger said, he is an awesome player but isn''t given as much credit as English players because people don''t see him week in and week out [/quote]

"I think the reason English players are so well known and everyone loves them is because most of them play in the premier league"

Well...terrific insight there.

I''m also glad we''ve got you to englighten us that other countries produce some good footballers too. We''d never know if not.

I''m relatively sure ''The English media'' know a good footballer when they see one. But I don''t think there''s enough hours in the day to spread their focus to every single professional player in the world. Therefore they tend to concentrate on players and teams wh actually mean something to people in this country.

Unless of course you think it''d be a good idea for your Sunday supplement to be a roundup of the games from the Turkish championship.

I''m not particularly well travelled but I imagine if you go to other countries the media there tries to put focus on their domestic football.

Oh and also...maybe just maybe...because of the more intense media focus on domestic football players are more critically scrutinised and therefore the fans are made more aware of faults and errors. I wonder if Fred would still appear to be as ''awesome'' if you saw him play a full 38 fixture season in a more competitive league and also if he wasn''t Brazilian but from a more bland footballing country.

[First Jedi 0]

[quote user="Mook"]

Funny thing about this argument is that 1 year ago, 99.999% of people who are absolutely certain they know better would not have had Owen Hargreaves in the squad, let alone in their first 11.

[/quote]

 

And those that have any sense, still, still wouldn''t! Hargreaves is a total liability.

[Syteanric 1]

hargreaves is a vital player in a shootout though...

the germans never lose shootouts... they have lost once, to Czhekeslovakia, in the 70''s...

Only player to score from the spot for england at the world cup.. Hargreaves.. Bayern Munich....

England need to look to German methods for pealty success.

jas :)

[7rew 0]

Didn''t get the Healy hattrick, but a brace is good enough for me.Home nations standings in their groups:1st) Northern Ireland2nd) Scotland3rd) Republic of Ireland4th) England5th) Wales

[Cobain18 0]

well of course media abroad puts focus on their domestic football, however the English media do not know nearly as much about other domestic leagues as the media abroad, i was in Italy for the world cup and instead of focusing purely on their players they actually took the time to look at the oppostion players from different leagues. Even look at the Scottish media and they have a much more balanced view of players from other domestic leagues.

  "I''m also glad we''ve got you to englighten us that other countries produce some good footballers too. We''d never know if not." In response to that quote I don''t think you do realise the quality of other players abroad mainly due to the English media as usual, believe me i have been abroad and seen the French, Italian, Spanish, and other media and you will not find any media coverage as biased to their national side or as ignorant about the opposition as the English media!

[GJP 79]

[quote user="Cobain18"]

well of course media abroad puts focus on their domestic football, however the English media do not know nearly as much about other domestic leagues as the media abroad, i was in Italy for the world cup and instead of focusing purely on their players they actually took the time to look at the oppostion players from different leagues. Even look at the Scottish media and they have a much more balanced view of players from other domestic leagues.

  "I''m also glad we''ve got you to englighten us that other countries produce some good footballers too. We''d never know if not." In response to that quote I don''t think you do realise the quality of other players abroad mainly due to the English media as usual, believe me i have been abroad and seen the French, Italian, Spanish, and other media and you will not find any media coverage as biased to their national side or as ignorant about the opposition as the English media!

[/quote]

No I can''t see that at all. It''s just plainly obvious that all you do is criticise anything English, nothing but a whinging doom merchant. You''re the kind of person who likes to think they know something the rest of us don''t.

The English players don''t do this, the English media don''t do that blah blah blah. The grass is always greener on the other side.

I''ve seen it a million times before and I''ll see it a million times more.

[Cobain18 0]

thats where ur wrong, im not a doom merchant - i think norwich will do very well next season, i dont think i no better than everybody else because not everybody appears to be so deluded over why it is that england constantly fail to perform, i am however a realist. the grass is not ALWAYS greener on the other side however england''s form for years has been worse than expected and they havent won anything for years - there is a reason for this.

You clearly have run out of logical argument as you have now resorted to insulting me which doesnt prove anything, but i will guarantee you with this set of players england will not win any major tournament despite what the english media may say if we qualify through this group!

[GJP 79]

[quote user="Cobain18"]

thats where ur wrong, im not a doom merchant - i think norwich will do very well next season, i dont think i no better than everybody else because not everybody appears to be so deluded over why it is that england constantly fail to perform, i am however a realist. the grass is not ALWAYS greener on the other side however england''s form for years has been worse than expected and they havent won anything for years - there is a reason for this.

You clearly have run out of logical argument as you have now resorted to insulting me which doesnt prove anything, but i will guarantee you with this set of players england will not win any major tournament despite what the english media may say if we qualify through this group!

[/quote]

You just haven''t talked to me about football though so it''s difficult to continue this.

All you''ve done is said all these Brazilians are better than the equivalent English player but you haven''t actually given any insight as to why you think that.

At least I picked out a handful of players and said yeah he can do this but he can''t do that. Shows that I actually understand the game a bit. You''re argument seems to extend to...he''s Brazilian so he''s better. Oh wow look at me I can list the Brazilian squad so therefore I must know what I''m talking about.

I''m disappointed by Englands recent form because they have the quality to do better. But also there can be only 1 World Cup winner, just because you don''t win the WC doesn''t mean you''re a bad side. I bet you wouldn''t slate some of the other big nations who haven''t picked up any trophies in recent times.

I think most people, who understand the game, know that England fail to perform because a set of top players has fallen into the hands of bad management. An unnatural and unbalanced team isn''t going to perform, no matter who you are. Unfortunately we''re lumbered with a negative manager who can''t pick a team.

[Cobain18 0]

Lumbered with bad management? funny how that always happens to england isnt it? never the players fault. if you recall i went through the england team and said why they are not good enuf

[Canary02 0]

What really annoyed me the other night was Shearer and the other pundits saying "Lampard and Gerrard can play together, no problem". Based on what? We''ve persisted with this for four years and it has never worked! Lampard had one good qualifying campaign 3 years ago and has been Dickson-Etuhu-on-a-bad-day anonymous ever since. Gerrard plays one good game in seven or eight at international level and is a shadow of his club self. We''re doing the same now with Hargreaves. He was widely pilloried as being the weakest link i the England squad before the World Cup but one and a half good games later he was somehow a massive success story and destined to lead England to future glory. Now he''s back to form giving blink-and-you''ll-miss-him performances in the midfield. There''s simply not enough competition for places. An England manager needs to have the stones to drop Lampard (whose club performances have only been average at best this season, let alone his international abominations), and let Gerrard and Hargreaves know that they''re on borrowed time if they don''t improve quickly. They''re all scared that if they play someone else and lose, the papers will round on them, but the fact is that if we persist with this lack of competition we''ll never win anything anyway.

[Cobain18 0]

I think you''re right about dropping Lampard, that would be a start to improving England''s team, he is ineffective in the games he plays for us. We should switch gerrard back to central mid with hargreaves, play lennon on the right and when fit joe cole on the left. if mclaren insists on trying to play lampard then i think we need to change formation to the kind of formation that chelsea sometimes play with one up front and cole and lennon breaking and joining the front man when we attack.

[GJP 79]

[quote user="Cobain18"]Lumbered with bad management? funny how that always happens to england isnt it? never the players fault. if you recall i went through the england team and said why they are not good enuf[/quote]

No I think in say the mid-late 90s England didn''t quite have the quality of players they needed. I think now most people generally realise that there is alot of talent and quality available to England but Sven and Steve are not the men to get the best out of some very gifted footballers.

I know you highlighted that Paul Robinson isn''t the greatest keeper the world has ever seen and I would agree with that. And I know that Lennon hasn''t proven himself to be ''world class'' But what you seemingly fail to realise is that many of those Brazilians you''ve named have also never proven themselves to be world class. It just seems that you are only capable of seeing faults as far as England go. At least I can see what''s wrong with England but can also appreciate where other people fall short.

Obviously there''s a couple of Brazilians who you wouldn''t mind in the England team but there''s some English players who''d improve Brazil.

Aside from bad management there''s a lot of good out there for English football at the moment. Our squad has plenty of players who play at the very highest level and we have some very talented youngsters coming through the ranks.

And you can be sure...going into any major tournament England will be regarded as one of the biggest threats, which is why we were amongst the top 2 or 3 faves to win the last WC. Because people look at us and know we''ve got the quality.

[Cobain18 0]

im not claiming every brazillian is world class, i just think other international sides including Brazil have more proven world class players. i think england will again be in the top 2 or 3 faves to win this european cup if they qualify but they will inevitably go out at maybe quarter final stage or even earlier

[GJP 79]

I guess it all depends what you consider ''proven'' and ''world class'' then.

[Shack Attack 0]

[quote user="GJP"]

I think most people, who understand the game, know that England fail to perform because a set of top players has fallen into the hands of bad management. An unnatural and unbalanced team isn''t going to perform, no matter who you are. Unfortunately we''re lumbered with a negative manager who can''t pick a team.

[/quote]

Sorry but I think you''re wrong there. England''s main problem is that although their ''world class'' players look just that in The Premiership this actually means nothing in the world of international football.

The Premiership is a unique competition, unlike any other league, that''s why it''s shown in so many countries around the world. It''s exciting, it''s fast paced, possesion is lost one second and then gained back the next. In other words, it''s absolutely nothing like international football and therefore it''s no surprise when players who look ''world class'' in The Premiership fail to carry this form over to international football.

If you want an example then just look at Frank Lampard. Scorer of 15+ goals each season in The Premiership because the game suits him, stick him in an England shirt and, with the exception of a few games in Euro 2000, he looks like a fish out of water. It works the other way round as well. Check out Fernando Morientes'' goal scoring record for Spain and various teams in the Champions League. Now does that sound like the same player who played for Liverpool last season? The same goes for Alexander Hleb, many people in football rate him as one of the best midfielders in Europe but in this country he''s portrayed as ''weak'' by the media and thought of as ''not up to The Premiership'' by many fans.

Until we change the way the game is played in this country and coach our kids to play a more continental style of football we''ll go on getting bad results against teams who play a different style of football to us. Whilst some people ''who understand the game'' realise this the rest seem content to throw insults at yet another England manager, as this is much more fun than addresing the real issues.

[GJP 79]

[quote user="Shack Attack"][quote user="GJP"]

I think most people, who understand the game, know that England fail to perform because a set of top players has fallen into the hands of bad management. An unnatural and unbalanced team isn''t going to perform, no matter who you are. Unfortunately we''re lumbered with a negative manager who can''t pick a team.

[/quote]

Sorry but I think you''re wrong there. England''s main problem is that although their ''world class'' players look just that in The Premiership this actually means nothing in the world of international football.

The Premiership is a unique competition, unlike any other league, that''s why it''s shown in so many countries around the world. It''s exciting, it''s fast paced, possesion is lost one second and then gained back the next. In other words, it''s absolutely nothing like international football and therefore it''s no surprise when players who look ''world class'' in The Premiership fail to carry this form over to international football.

If you want an example then just look at Frank Lampard. Scorer of 15+ goals each season in The Premiership because the game suits him, stick him in an England shirt and, with the exception of a few games in Euro 2000, he looks like a fish out of water. It works the other way round as well. Check out Fernando Morientes'' goal scoring record for Spain and various teams in the Champions League. Now does that sound like the same player who played for Liverpool last season? The same goes for Alexander Hleb, many people in football rate him as one of the best midfielders in Europe but in this country he''s portrayed as ''weak'' by the media and thought of as ''not up to The Premiership'' by many fans.

Until we change the way the game is played in this country and coach our kids to play a more continental style of football we''ll go on getting bad results against teams who play a different style of football to us. Whilst some people ''who understand the game'' realise this the rest seem content to throw insults at yet another England manager, as this is much more fun than addresing the real issues.

[/quote]

I can see your point but if you look to these seasons Champions League it''s English clubs that have the strongest representation. Obviously Man Utd, Chelsea and Liverpool have several England players in their teams and they seem to have no trouble mixing it up with the best in Europe.

The recent successes of Man Utd and Liverpool in the Champions League suggest that the English brand of football can compete with anything else out there.

If anybody thinks Steve McClaren has got what it takes to be a good manager for England then they''re on another planet. England are suffering because they lack a manager who can pick the right players/formation/system, of that I remain convinced.

[Cobain18 0]

i think the one thing everybody can agree on is that Mclaren is most definately NOT the man for the job, and England''s performances would improve under a better manager

[One Flew Over... 33]

[quote user="Cobain18"]

In response to that quote I don''t think you do realise the quality of other players abroad mainly due to the English media as usual, believe me i have been abroad and seen the French, Italian, Spanish, and other media and you will not find any media coverage as biased to their national side or as ignorant about the opposition as the English media!

[/quote]

France matches are shown on TV in France the commentary is some of the most biased I''ve ever heard! Even when Lyon in the Champions League they were referred to as "us" by the commentators. It is almost an offence to say anything negative about Zidane - whereas in England the press loving slating our players and managers. I''d say the English media has far more coverage of foreign leagues than the French media, due mainly to the fact that the amount of football commentary is twice what it is in France (Spanish and Italian league matches on TV, TalkSport etc.).

[Cobain18 0]

France matches are shown on TV in France the commentary is some of the most biased I''ve ever heard! Even when Lyon in the Champions League they were referred to as "us" by the commentators. It is almost an offence to say anything negative about Zidane - whereas in England the press loving slating our players and managers. I''d say the English media has far more coverage of foreign leagues than the French media, due mainly to the fact that the amount of football commentary is twice what it is in France (Spanish and Italian league matches on TV, TalkSport etc.).

 

No one can disagree that Zidane is one of the greatest players of modern football and the french media know more about premiership players than the majority of english ppl know about the french league