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nutty nigel

Why I can't support the demo

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Reasons for the demonstration taken from the original thread:-

We have a celebrity big brother board, who fail to deliver answers.

I don''t know what a celebrity big brother board is but I do know that they are open and approachable to the fans. They answer questions in the media and personally. The answers are delivered. Whether we like those answers is another matter. That''s why I asked the instigator of this demo if he had taken his concerns to the Board on a personal level.

Delia loves the media attention and doesn’t it seem strange that every time she sits with us normal folk out of 25,000 people the press always know exactly where she’s sitting?

This is not true. I have stated on here many times before that Delia often sits with the fans, it''s only when the press hunt her down that people who don''t go to games realise it. Stockport away on a Tuesday night during the petrol protests. Reading away just as the transfer window closed last year. She was in the seat next to me at Maine Road a few years ago. Wimbledon away when we taught her to throw inflatables, anyone who was there would remember the giant pineapple! There are of course many more where I have seen her but those ones readily spring to mind. And there must be many others where my seat wasn’t near hers so I wouldn’t have known. I challenge anyone to name as many occasions where she had media attention. In my experience she is as much “normal folk” as the rest of us.

With the best away support in the league and sell out games week in week out at home we deserve changes and showing our anger is the only way to draw attention to it.

There are no suggestions here. Just a statement that we deserve changes. What changes? I personally would have liked to have seen Worthington backed with money last summer or sacked and somebody else put in charge and backed with money. We can''t change that now. All this anti-board stuff has only been happening since Grant took over so I can only assume it''s the manager again. Since Grant took over the Board have backed his judgement by signing four players permanently and one on loan until the end of the season. They only realistically had a month to do that. Five players is nearly half a team. All five would be first choice when fit. The Board surely cannot be held responsible for injuries.

Ashton,Green,sky money, parachute payments,WHERES THE MONEY GONE? WE WANT DELIA+DONCASTER OUT!

Where''s the money gone is in the financial report. It takes a better man than me to fully understand it though. Another way to find out is to ask members of the Board personally. Another way to find out is to read what is reported in the press after the financial report was published. As I said, I don''t fully understand it but I am sure if there was any evidence of wrong doing it would have been discovered and reported by now. We had an absolutely disgraceful thread on here not so long back where two of our most belligerent posters were suggesting wrong doing in these accounts. Surely anything untoward would have been uncovered then. Many people, me included, would prefer a change of direction so that more money is made available to strengthen the playing staff, but how do we know that forcing the present owners out would achieve that?

Why Delia out? Delia has said they would be open to investment if they felt it was right for the club. Michael Wynn Jones surely holds as many shares as Delia so can he stay? Are they supposed to walk away and leave their money and shares behind? Is it a personal issue with Delia Smith and if so why? What is the reason for Neil Doncaster to be sacked? Worthy Out gave reasons right from the start and they were reasons that even those who disagreed could understand.

See you on the 6th.

Not a chance mate! I am unhappy with the last couple of seasons. The wretched performances have hurt me too, maybe even more than some of you because I have seen them first hand. If Worthington was still in charge and the board had done nothing I would have every sympathy with the protest. But the Board finally bit the bullet and changed the manager in October. Since then they have appointed a manager who has to be given a chance to prove himself. They have backed him in the only transfer window so far. Whether you like it or not we have been incredibly unlucky with injuries. I know all clubs get injuries but our luck has been exceptionally bad in the fact that we lost Chadwick and Marshall so quickly after they had signed and our top goal scorer for so long and at the same time. Despite this many fans have seen what a poster on here described as green shoots of recovery.

All things considered is this really the right time to have a demo against the Board?

I don''t think so.


 

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Didn''t want to post on the original debate, you can tell by my count i don''t come off lurk mode much

The timing is wrong at the moment but the question/concern i have is if the board are able to only deliver a 500k reduction on our debt given the money in, a culminaiton of millions in TV, advertising, ticket sales, player sales etc then what budget preperations for next season when the In column will be reduced by 6-8million

I can see soem high earners have be unloaded already & the running out of other contract helps, but i can reasonably only see Earnshaw as the one tangible & valuable asset we have.  His sale seems inevitable yet without his goals our long term future in CCC seems assured so the perpetual cycle of debt will increase

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Ankles:

When we sold Ron Davies back in 19 bla bla!, I couldn''t see life after him...............but we did go on........and to better things!.

The same rule will apply to any  Earnshaw sale mate.

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[quote user="1st Wizard"]

Ankles:

When we sold Ron Davies back in 19 bla bla!, I couldn''t see life after him...............but we did go on........and to better things!.

The same rule will apply to any  Earnshaw sale mate.

[/quote]

The same more recently with Flecky...

Anybody remember having those feelings the season that he moved to Chelsea and a certain Mr Robins came in???

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I agree with that Wiz!

Ron Davies, Hugh Curran, Kevin Reeves, Justin Fashanu, Kevin Drinkell, Chris Sutton, Craig Bellamy, Dean Ashton... I probably missed loads out too.. and now Robbie Earnshaw. But we never like it.. do we?

 

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Good post Nutty, I''m with you all the way. Your''e also right Wiz, no one''s irreplaceable.

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Excellent post Nigel, and just to say...If Earnie does go, as much as I won''t like it, I''m kind of getting used to him not playing already...

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*Speculative post alert *I wonder if we will actually have to sell Earnshaw.  I''m looking at Chris Martin, (well not actually looking at him, that would be weird from my office) who could regularly score for us for the rest of the season, and I''m thinking of Theo Walcott, who played 13 games for Southampton before moving to Arsenal.  Martin is a year older, but is Martin is Walcotts'' league?  Arsenal paid 5 million, with a potential payout of 12 million for Theo.Unfair pressure to put on a rising prospect, definitely, but I''m sure if an offer of a similar magnitude came in, it would give Grant crucial lee-way to keep Earnshaw and bring in a couple of others.

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Nuttynigel-I see your reasons mate and agree with some points you have made which are fair enough. But i have also gone into greater details with  the  evening news who have actually edited incorrectly on certain issues {the demos after the game aswell-incorrect,the demos because of the threat of relegation-incorrect} and havent  printed at all as of what i have said and feel dissapointed  in that they ignored major issues i asked of the board. Like i said i now agree that the timing is probably wrong but just want to make it  clear that it would only be postponed untill we are safe. As for threats and insulsts  made to me, without wanting to sound like a teacher i have seen a lot more go on at this club than the majority of the people posting them.From reading a lot of the posts its clear that a lot of people making the said posts are younger than me and while we are all supporters i wonder how many of them would have still been supporting the club had they had to deal with some of the troubles encountered on following norwich away in the 70s? I was stabbed at 2 games, had a brick smashed in my face for my troubles to name a few incidents.there was no police escorts or cctc in those days, and i think i deserve more respect having proudly gone away week in week out supporting the canaries regardless of what troubles lay ahead.

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[quote user="theolster"]Nuttynigel-I see your reasons mate and agree with some points you have made which are fair enough. But i have also gone into greater details with  the  evening news who have actually edited incorrectly on certain issues {the demos after the game aswell-incorrect,the demos because of the threat of relegation-incorrect} and havent  printed at all as of what i have said and feel dissapointed  in that they ignored major issues i asked of the board. Like i said i now agree that the timing is probably wrong but just want to make it  clear that it would only be postponed untill we are safe. As for threats and insulsts  made to me, without wanting to sound like a teacher i have seen a lot more go on at this club than the majority of the people posting them.From reading a lot of the posts its clear that a lot of people making the said posts are younger than me and while we are all supporters i wonder how many of them would have still been supporting the club had they had to deal with some of the troubles encountered on following norwich away in the 70s? I was stabbed at 2 games, had a brick smashed in my face for my troubles to name a few incidents.there was no police escorts or cctc in those days, and i think i deserve more respect having proudly gone away week in week out supporting the canaries regardless of what troubles lay ahead.[/quote]

 

yea i can remember, those were the days, getting put in the millwall end by mistake, fighting your way on to the coach after  every away game. thats what make me laugh, cause we are not proper supporters according to many on here just because our passion is mistaken as troublemaking, rather than a desire to see our club do well.

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I too travelled to matches in the 70''s. Mascot coaches from Bell Avenue. I never want to see those days return. Now I can safely go on the same buses with my Grandchildren. Who would have thought it back then!

 

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[quote user="1st Wizard"]

Ankles:

When we sold Ron Davies back in 19 bla bla!, I couldn''t see life after him...............but we did go on........and to better things!.

The same rule will apply to any  Earnshaw sale mate.

[/quote]

That take''s me back Wiz , the first player we signed after Ron Davis was Alan Black , it must have been 63 -64 ,when i was 13 -14 .why i remember it  was because i started the chant off in the Barcley of the top hit at the time ," Black is Black but i want Ron Davis back" wonderful days ,where have they all gone?

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Sorry, Theolster why on earth do you think you should deserve more respect than any one else,  I would respect someone who is prepared to make factual statements that would hold water in a court of law and some of the wild accusations and insinuations that fly about on these boards is amazing.  To make a protest on the bases of wild guesses borders on the ridiculous.  From how you report your experiences regarding treatment received in support of your team shows perhaps the sort of company you keep, or is it the spectacle that you present yourself as?  I have supported NCFC since 1948 I am now in my eighty-fifth year in October actually.  Apart from my period in the forces have never had a hand on me nor a threat to my person.  I suppose that you were stabbed without provocation and bricked by material found on site.  What do you carry with you for protection. 

There is a lesson to be learnt and that is when you make a point, be sure it is fact and not an opinion.  Be sure that your facts are delivered with politeness.  That in my opinion is the way to be treated with respect.  Good manners never create problems in court.  If you are inclined to make remarks about  peoples honesty and integrity, remember in this country they are innocent until they are found guilty.  Also being the accuser, one should always make sure of ones facts.  Many posters on these boards do tend to rave and dress up their statements in an uncivilised manner.  That is not the way to get respect from any one, especially if one wishes to be treated seriously.

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[quote user="beelsie"]

Sorry, Theolster why on earth do you think you should deserve more respect than any one else,  I would respect someone who is prepared to make factual statements that would hold water in a court of law and some of the wild accusations and insinuations that fly about on these boards is amazing.  To make a protest on the bases of wild guesses borders on the ridiculous.  From how you report your experiences regarding treatment received in support of your team shows perhaps the sort of company you keep, or is it the spectacle that you present yourself as?  I have supported NCFC since 1948 I am now in my eighty-fifth year in October actually.  Apart from my period in the forces have never had a hand on me nor a threat to my person.  I suppose that you were stabbed without provocation and bricked by material found on site.  What do you carry with you for protection. 

There is a lesson to be learnt and that is when you make a point, be sure it is fact and not an opinion.  Be sure that your facts are delivered with politeness.  That in my opinion is the way to be treated with respect.  Good manners never create problems in court.  If you are inclined to make remarks about  peoples honesty and integrity, remember in this country they are innocent until they are found guilty.  Also being the accuser, one should always make sure of ones facts.  Many posters on these boards do tend to rave and dress up their statements in an uncivilised manner.  That is not the way to get respect from any one, especially if one wishes to be treated seriously.

[/quote]

with respect sir, you should practice what you preach, if you do not believe an innocent person cannot be stabbed you lead a sheltered life and that said person does not have to keep bad company to be stabbed or attacked. I travelled with city many times with city during the 60''s and 70''s and it could be a dangerous pastime, like when we beat man u in their own back yard in the 60''s and places like millwall and chelsea were no picnic.

I dont know where some of the allegations of board corruption keep coming from, all i hear is people want change because Delia has not get the dough needed to sustain the club and monies is getting spend in the wrong areas not the team. this name calling and oneupmanship works both ways and i suggest we all just debate the facts.

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I think, Ricky, also with respect to many peoples experiences, my remarks were made in the context that the poster was talking about his experiences and made the point that he was older and had some rather ghastly experiences that some how made him a more authoritative leader of said demonstration..  I would not regard myself as leading a sheltered life having spent years in action.  The run my own business for many years to sell it in 1987.  I will also agree with your point, that from a football fans point of view NCFC could be seen to have spent more on real estate than on playing staff.  That may well be the case, but from a business point of view Delia and co have to protect the financial status of NCFC the best way they know how within the regulations imposed by the FA governing body.  That will be by keeping the funds protected by real estate as backing for any loans that may be necessary in the future.  Delia and partner would be foolish to allow their share value decrease as a result of poor management, and thence the liquidation of NCFC, allowing any predator to pick up their holding at a financial loss.  Delia has said that she would welcome an investor into the club.  The investor would be expecting that if he became a share holder he/she would be entitled to a return from investment similar to what Delia and co get.  After all  If their money was to be put into the sort of risky environment that some of you are contemplating then the returns have got to be worthwhile.  Also as you say lets debate the facts and the reasons for those facts.  Lets also make sure they are relevant facts, facts that deal with the issues in hand.  I would be sure that my age, my business experience, my period in defence of this country would bear any relevance in such a debate that you advocate, neither would our good friends stabbing or bricking have any bearing on such a debate. In the above I would not consider myself to be point scoring.

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[quote user="1st Wizard"]

Ankles:

When we sold Ron Davies back in 19 bla bla!, I couldn''t see life after him...............but we did go on........and to better things!.

The same rule will apply to any  Earnshaw sale mate.

[/quote]

Wiz mate

think about it.... this post is off topic too. I try and be polite on here and I don''t believe I truely upset many people, not intentionally anyway, there are just a lot of double standards around here just now.

 

 

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[quote user="ray ducker"][quote user="1st Wizard"]

Ankles:

When we sold Ron Davies back in 19 bla bla!, I couldn''t see life after him...............but we did go on........and to better things!.

The same rule will apply to any  Earnshaw sale mate.

[/quote]

That take''s me back Wiz , the first player we signed after Ron Davis was Alan Black , it must have been 63 -64 ,when i was 13 -14 .why i remember it  was because i started the chant off in the Barcley of the top hit at the time ," Black is Black but i want Ron Davis back" wonderful days ,where have they all gone?

[/quote]

I remember Alan Black Ray but am too young for the chant! Was there ever a chant for Charlie Billington?

 

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Read the above replies

So we sell Earnshaw this summer to help balance the books, Martin/Brown?Jarvis and whatever low cost striker we can pick up comes in & does a job.  What about the summer after, who do we sell then, will Martin be worth 2 or 3mill - that speculative planning in anyones book

With Earnshaws goals, 25+ a season coupled with a keeper & back four that can keep some clean sheets you have a top 6 team or thereabouts.   If the board want to show real ambition and the player willing to commit to the cause (no point forcing him to stay) they should not sell in summer but accept an operatng loss for 1 season which could well represent our best opoortunity with regards to playing staff for many seasons.  

I will not be "protesting" but lobbying for a brave stance by the board

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I will not be supporting the demo for the following reasons, and would like to point out that I have not been bullied into making these decisions by anybody!

1) At this stage of the season with the threat of relegation still looming any attempt to divide the fans could be disasterous. It doesn''t matter if your slogan is ''Back the players, sack the board'' or whatever, not everybody will be aware of this and some level of confrontation is inevitable. Just witness the depths some of the recent threads on here have sunk to. Nobody wants to see a return to the funerial atmosphere of the Worthy Out days but that''s what division amongst the fans will create.

2) The whole ''Where''s the money gone'' angle suggests that the board suggests that the board have been somehow fiddling the books, regardless of the recent protestations of some of the would be demonstrators. Their demands to see the accounts so these can be scrutinised only serve to back up these suggestions.

3) We''ve only just had one round of protests last season, what are you going to do if removing Delia and Co. does not have the desired effect, protest again? If the poo really hits the fan, I''ll be out there protesting with the rest of you but at the moment we''re at a point where things could go either way.

4) Most importantly I detest the constant rewriting of history by some people who support this demo, althoug I accept that theolster does not appear to be encouraging this. The rebranding of the Chase era as one which showed how ambitious we once were is pathetic, and the people who do it have a damn cheek to turn round and accuse our board of spin! You do not show ambition by selling millions and millions of pounds worth of players and only investing a fraction of that back in the team. We were more succesfull in the Chase era, of that there can be no doubt, but this was down to the succesive managers who unearthed raw talent and turned them into million pound players, not because of Chase''s ambition.

So there you go, those are my reasons. I would like to point out that I do respect your right to protest, we live in a democracy after all, but I also respect the rights of people who wish to turn up and challenge your point of view providing this is done in a non-threatening manner.

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[quote user="nutty nigel"]

Wiz mate

think about it.... this post is off topic too.

 

 

[/quote]

Nutty Nigel:

Blast me you''re right bor!, ain''t I the fool?.

Point taken and consider my wrists slapped.....................sorry guys.

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beelsie- you have missed the point entirely. When did i say getting i was the leader of the group, and that being samshed in the face with a brick entitled to me being the "leader"?? Im merely a spokesman.What i said was i was older than the majority of people making threats to me,signing me up to ipswich websites,insulting me,saying im not a true fan, calling me an attention seeker,  i wondered how many would have been supporting norwich had they run into the problems we regularly did in the 70s.To suggest i was stabbed twice because of the company i kept is a ridiculous claim. Did all the people at hillsbororugh, the bradford fire, hysel die because of the company they kept? Are you seriously saying that no-one has been attacked at football matches for daring to support the other team?As for these wild accusations i have stated that there is no reason why more money from income cannot go back into on the field activitys rather than off the field. My personel opinion others disagree,thats fair enough.hardly a "wild accusation".Please contact the evening news if you have any doubts of my so called "wild accusations" as i have been in regular contact with them and they know the exact reasons. Also my point on the younger people insulting and threatening me was that is  nowadays you have the safety of police escorts, cctv etc while during the 70s it was a dangerous thing to support the club and i was proud to do so, and never let any of the week in week out violence put me off, as i know for a fact it did others-i know several people who havent been to a match since-and i am still here and for people to question me as a true supporter is disgusting! If you truely believe that there was no trouble during the 70s and 80s then that really is the "wild accusation" !

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shark attack wish to make somthing clear. we have never suggested that anyone at the club  is fiddling the books and anyone foolish enough to make a claim is not welcome by us. By asking {not demanding} to see the books,which we have done, we merely wanted to work out why so much money has been poured into off the field activitys rather than into the team and why there is no plan in place to challenge to be a top 6 championship club. I respect your views and you make some very good points. I would like to once again say we are a peaceful group, and a decision on whether we postpone the demo at the weekend untill we are safe-this will be made on whats best for the team, not spineless threats to attack us. many thanks shark attack.

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[quote user="Ankles50"]

Read the above replies

So we sell Earnshaw this summer to help balance the books, Martin/Brown?Jarvis and whatever low cost striker we can pick up comes in & does a job.  What about the summer after, who do we sell then, will Martin be worth 2 or 3mill - that speculative planning in anyones book

With Earnshaws goals, 25+ a season coupled with a keeper & back four that can keep some clean sheets you have a top 6 team or thereabouts.   If the board want to show real ambition and the player willing to commit to the cause (no point forcing him to stay) they should not sell in summer but accept an operatng loss for 1 season which could well represent our best opoortunity with regards to playing staff for many seasons.  

I will not be "protesting" but lobbying for a brave stance by the board

[/quote]Agree entirely, Ankles... the biggest test of the board''s ambition this summer may not be how much they spend, but how much they resist selling... Something in my gut tells me that Earnie will stay... but it could just be tape worm... [:S]

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[quote user="Shack Attack"]

I will not be supporting the demo for the following reasons, and would like to point out that I have not been bullied into making these decisions by anybody!

1) At this stage of the season with the threat of relegation still looming any attempt to divide the fans could be disasterous. It doesn''t matter if your slogan is ''Back the players, sack the board'' or whatever, not everybody will be aware of this and some level of confrontation is inevitable. Just witness the depths some of the recent threads on here have sunk to. Nobody wants to see a return to the funerial atmosphere of the Worthy Out days but that''s what division amongst the fans will create.

2) The whole ''Where''s the money gone'' angle suggests that the board suggests that the board have been somehow fiddling the books, regardless of the recent protestations of some of the would be demonstrators. Their demands to see the accounts so these can be scrutinised only serve to back up these suggestions.

3) We''ve only just had one round of protests last season, what are you going to do if removing Delia and Co. does not have the desired effect, protest again? If the poo really hits the fan, I''ll be out there protesting with the rest of you but at the moment we''re at a point where things could go either way.

4) Most importantly I detest the constant rewriting of history by some people who support this demo, althoug I accept that theolster does not appear to be encouraging this. The rebranding of the Chase era as one which showed how ambitious we once were is pathetic, and the people who do it have a damn cheek to turn round and accuse our board of spin! You do not show ambition by selling millions and millions of pounds worth of players and only investing a fraction of that back in the team. We were more succesfull in the Chase era, of that there can be no doubt, but this was down to the succesive managers who unearthed raw talent and turned them into million pound players, not because of Chase''s ambition.

So there you go, those are my reasons. I would like to point out that I do respect your right to protest, we live in a democracy after all, but I also respect the rights of people who wish to turn up and challenge your point of view providing this is done in a non-threatening manner.

[/quote]

Totally agree with all of that Shack Attack, points well made.

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theolster

I went away to football a lot as a young man in the 70''s. It was sometimes impossible to not become involved in some of awful things that were attatched to our game at that time. I am glad all that is in the past and that I can relatively safely travel the country, often with my family, these days. I  could even take my young grandchildren without fear now. People who didn''t see those times with their own eyes would never understand how it was.

I know you have never suggested anyone at the club was on the take but this has been hinted at by some people who like to associate themselves with you.

The old adage that if you lay down with dogs you get up with fleas would probably suit your predicament.

 

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[quote]we merely wanted to work out why so much money has been poured into off

the field activitys rather than into the team and why there is no plan

in place to challenge to be a top 6 championship club.[/quote]In my opinion theolster, the answer to your question is that 9 million pounds a year in wages should be enough of an investment to get us towards the top end of the league.  To a large extent, you have to look at the players who took the money and the management of those players.  The board in appointing and sticking with the previous manager should probably have acted earlier to remove him.  In this league though, the level of wages, plus the money spent on among others Earnshaw, Croft, this Januarys players and various loan signings should be returning better results than it has.

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[quote user="theolster"]shark attack wish to make somthing clear. we have never suggested that anyone at the club  is fiddling the books and anyone foolish enough to make a claim is not welcome by us. By asking {not demanding} to see the books,which we have done, we merely wanted to work out why so much money has been poured into off the field activitys rather than into the team and why there is no plan in place to challenge to be a top 6 championship club. I respect your views and you make some very good points. I would like to once again say we are a peaceful group, and a decision on whether we postpone the demo at the weekend untill we are safe-this will be made on whats best for the team, not spineless threats to attack us. many thanks shark attack.[/quote]

Fair enough Lee, and although I now see that the demo has been postponed I hope you wont mind me replying to this due to the fact it will be back on sometime in the future.

I accept that as the spokesman for your group you have never suggested that anybody is fiddling the books. However, some people who were turning up to your demo have. They also claimed that Delia''s life should be made ''uncomfortable'', although this was later retracted, and continue to throw personal insults her way. As the spokesman for your group I feel you need to make it clear to these people that such behaviour is unacceptable and hope you will do in the future.

You say that the main focus of your group is to see why so much money has been poured into off field activities and I guess the answer is relatively simple. A lot of these ventures began springing up after the collapse of the ITV Digital deal and I would expect that the main thought behind them was to make up the lost revenue. A more pertinent set of questions for you to ask may be a) how much money is spent on off field ventures b) how much money do they make the club c) how much of any profit is ploughed back into the transfer kitty to purchase players. If the answers are a) lots b) not much c) none, then you might get a bit more support!

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