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The Judge

Doncaster - "Financial Panacea to clubs woe's" !!

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At last !! Doncaster in his lastest column has finally admitted we are in a financial mess.

Posters on this board have always challenged this view by stating it is all "personal opinion" and challenging where is the proof. Well to all those who hold our current board in such high esteem - you can be in no doubt now about our financial plight as its come straight from the mouth of our Chief Executive.

Despite the fact the club has generated income far greater than ever in its history with Premiership payments, Parachute payments, land sales, transfer income, etc etc they have managed this club to such a state we are in a "woeful" financial position. And who can disagree ?? - despite these revenues the debt has risen to near £20m and we have no money. Well done Neil...

Too be honest after all his spin on the finances previously I''m really surprised he has used such a word - maybe they are starting to prepare us for the sale of key players in the summer and replacing them with people from the Ryman League. Munby after months of silence has also talked about his "big pot" of which the money we recieve from our cup run will go into and Peter Grant will recieve a slice of - blimey its only £300k and only a slice is going on transfers - oooh can''t wait to see all those big name signings !!

All the more reason in my opinion for the board to either step aside "en mass" or seriously seek financial investment, rather than Delia''s meaningless/half hearted statement at the AGM to deflect immediate criticism over the financial management of the club.    

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Don''t be so naive...

Losing £7m a year in income is not going to have less of an effect because we''ve earned £500,000 in cup competitions this year.

Doncaster''s column told us nothing we didn''t know already.

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It''s clear from the article that ND is trying to set straight the reporter claiming the Chelsea game will be an "amazing financial boost" that will allow PG to rebuild the squad (and anyone else who might think the same).It''s also clear that he goes somewhat further than that - smacks of softening the fans up for the summer sales. Anyone still wondering why Hucks contract hasn''t been sorted? Because when he has to settle for a division 1 club not at the top of the league and with no parachute payments, he''ll be in for a big shock when he sees his new contract. That''s why the club don''t want to deal with it right now. Ditto other high earners at the club. I can see a major stand off coming. Ditto with other high earners. [:(]

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This was always going to be the case. Lets get this straight, we are loosing £7,000,000 of income next year! Last year we made a very small profit of half a million, so we simply can''t carry on spending at the current level.

There is no doubt at all in my mind that players are going to go when their contracts run out in the close seaason. Whatever Doncaster says about the club having an extension on most of the 12 out of contract players we won''t be able to afford to keep them at their present rates of pay. Thats why there is the discontent that Hucks alluded to recently and thats why there has been no move by the board to activate the contract extensions.

 

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[quote user="The Judge"]

At last !! Doncaster in his lastest column has finally admitted we are in a financial mess.

Posters on this board have always challenged this view by stating it is all "personal opinion" and challenging where is the proof. Well to all those who hold our current board in such high esteem - you can be in no doubt now about our financial plight as its come straight from the mouth of our Chief Executive.

Despite the fact the club has generated income far greater than ever in its history with Premiership payments, Parachute payments, land sales, transfer income, etc etc they have managed this club to such a state we are in a "woeful" financial position. And who can disagree ?? - despite these revenues the debt has risen to near £20m and we have no money. Well done Neil...

Too be honest after all his spin on the finances previously I''m really surprised he has used such a word - maybe they are starting to prepare us for the sale of key players in the summer and replacing them with people from the Ryman League. Munby after months of silence has also talked about his "big pot" of which the money we recieve from our cup run will go into and Peter Grant will recieve a slice of - blimey its only £300k and only a slice is going on transfers - oooh can''t wait to see all those big name signings !!

All the more reason in my opinion for the board to either step aside "en mass" or seriously seek financial investment, rather than Delia''s meaningless/half hearted statement at the AGM to deflect immediate criticism over the financial management of the club.    

[/quote]

 

We''ve been in a similar position since Delia took over. Glad your catching up..... you do realise that we''ve bought Huckerby and been in the Premiership, got relegated etc? ;)

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Disagree mbncfc and not i''m not niave at all..

The club have stated, and we all know (myself included) that the loss of the parachute payments will have severe financial implications for us at the end of the season. However up until now the club have stated (spun) that the debts are in a managable state and financially we aren''t in too bad a position.

This statement from Doncaster is a definate change of tack - he has stated in print the "woes" of our financial predicament - a very strong word and quite clear statement. 

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Sadly Judge....even if the truth were tattooed on the inside of their eyelids some would still fail to see the facts. The tragedy is that we will have to hit rock bottom as a club before the fog finally clears....and then it will be literally years before we can have any hope of recovery.

Still....Que sera and all that.....[:)]

 

 

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People will always read what they want to in anything the club say. But slowly the tide of opinion against the club is changing. Soon going to matches at Carrow Road will be fun again. Hopefully Grant will continue to turn things around and bring success back to our club. Then watch as posters hail the board for having the foresight to appoint him as manager in the first place!

You never know, but if the good times return some poster may get so carried away that they suggest having a statue erected in Doncasters honour!!! [:O] [;)] [:-*] [B] [I] [li]

 

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[quote user="a1canary"]
Anyone still wondering why Hucks contract hasn''t been sorted? . [:(]
[/quote]

I agree with what you sat A1Canary, but Hucks signed a contract for next year just a few weeks ago

 

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[quote user="a1canary"]It''s clear from the article that ND is trying to set straight the reporter claiming the Chelsea game will be an "amazing financial boost" that will allow PG to rebuild the squad (and anyone else who might think the same).

It''s also clear that he goes somewhat further than that - smacks of softening the fans up for the summer sales.

Anyone still wondering why Hucks contract hasn''t been sorted? Because when he has to settle for a division 1 club not at the top of the league and with no parachute payments, he''ll be in for a big shock when he sees his new contract. That''s why the club don''t want to deal with it right now. Ditto other high earners at the club. I can see a major stand off coming. Ditto with other high earners. [:(]
[/quote]

 

I thought Hux has sorted his contract out already? 

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[quote user="The Judge"]

Disagree mbncfc and not i''m not niave at all..

The club have stated, and we all know (myself included) that the loss of the parachute payments will have severe financial implications for us at the end of the season. However up until now the club have stated (spun) that the debts are in a managable state and financially we aren''t in too bad a position.

This statement from Doncaster is a definate change of tack - he has stated in print the "woes" of our financial predicament - a very strong word and quite clear statement. 

[/quote]

Fair do''s judge. If I''m honest, I did notice the word ''woes'' being used as a stronger term than usual. I also noted he said that parachute payments ''may'' stop, which I''m pressuming is being slightly positive regarding our league position. Both raised an eye brow with me.

A lot is to do with perceptions.
In dealing with the transfer window, you want to point out that we are comfortable with the debt we have and can manage the payments, which we can.
In dealing with a national newspaper journalist who is explaining what a massive windfall the Chelsea game is, you want to point out that it is nothing compared to the effect of losing parachute payments and the troubles/woes that brings, which is true.

In reality it is spin both ways.

Personally, as the position of losing out on parachute payments gets nearer the realisation of the effect it is going to have will probably becomes starker. That said, our financial position will not have actually changed and I still think it is nothing that we didn''t know before (IMO) [:D]

 

As for Hucks, did he not sign an extension earlier this season? It was always going to be for a year...

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[quote user="a1canary"]It''s clear from the article that ND is trying to set straight the reporter claiming the Chelsea game will be an "amazing financial boost" that will allow PG to rebuild the squad (and anyone else who might think the same).

It''s also clear that he goes somewhat further than that - smacks of softening the fans up for the summer sales.

Anyone still wondering why Hucks contract hasn''t been sorted? Because when he has to settle for a division 1 club not at the top of the league and with no parachute payments, he''ll be in for a big shock when he sees his new contract. That''s why the club don''t want to deal with it right now. Ditto other high earners at the club. I can see a major stand off coming. Ditto with other high earners. [:(]
[/quote]

 

Hucks contract for another year was sorted out sometime ago.

Amazing how some people can put a negative spin on anything.

Cue Smudger!

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Ah, ok, i''ve been on holiday!! I wondered that as i typed it, "has he actually signed now?"Either way, we''re going to have to cut our cloth accordinly for next season and as ND is intimating, the numbers just don''t add up without the likes of Hucks taking big pay cuts and or a need for big sales in the summer. If he has signed up, he must have accepted that cut. Which makes him even more of a legend that he already is!!

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Am I missing something?  I thought the parachute money was in effect a bonus on top of our normal income, and that for the past two seasons we''ve had money that most other clubs in this division haven''t.  The club has misused it appallingly, but we should not be in a worse position than 17 other Championship clubs next season (assuming we stay in this division of course), and probably better off than many.  If we run into major money problems it is purely down to incompetent financial management.

In other words, Neil & Co, it''s your fault.  Stop bleating and SORT IT OUT!

 

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[quote user="a1canary"]Ah, ok, i''ve been on holiday!! I wondered that as i typed it, "has he actually signed now?"

Either way, we''re going to have to cut our cloth accordinly for next season and as ND is intimating, the numbers just don''t add up without the likes of Hucks taking big pay cuts and or a need for big sales in the summer.
If he has signed up, he must have accepted that cut. Which makes him even more of a legend that he already is!!
[/quote]

The announcement that he had signed for an extra year was made at a home game before Xmas. A legend indeed.

We all knew the parachute payments finished this season so no surprise that the coffers would be light by £7 million next year. The only consolation is that we are not alone. Some clubs have had a big lash out on the gamble of going up this season. Only 3 will make it so further pain in store for those who miss out.

Unfortunately if you don''t get back up within 2 seasons it inevitably becomes a long hard slog. It was all so predictable that this would happen when the big boys set up the Premier League and hogged the lions share of the TV money.

Without a very rich backer there is now little or no chance of a fair shot at gaining and retaining Premier status.

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[quote user="mystic megson"]

Am I missing something?  I thought the parachute money was in effect a bonus on top of our normal income, and that for the past two seasons we''ve had money that most other clubs in this division haven''t.  The club has misused it appallingly, but we should not be in a worse position than 17 other Championship clubs next season (assuming we stay in this division of course), and probably better off than many.  If we run into major money problems it is purely down to incompetent financial management.

In other words, Neil & Co, it''s your fault.  Stop bleating and SORT IT OUT!

 

[/quote]

Im glad you made this point mystic as im getting tired of stating the bleeding obvious....The team has been allowed to drift backwards over a spell when the club has been recieving huge extra income ON TOP OF normal income. Parachute payments,land deal money,hotel money,G.Watlings 1.5m loan written off, share offer money and just as icing on the cake, a massive profit on transfers. No doubt someone will bring up the wage bill for the last financial year however,if you include the 6m profit made on transfers (treated as "exceptional" in the accounts) the player wage bill is less than one third of overall income-most clubs run at over 50% of income on player wages. Dont forget many of the higher earners have now left.

So here we have a club which has been raking in the cash, with a paper thin first team squad devoid of investment and struggling near the foot of the table and a chairman who admits the club is "obsessed" with off-pitch issues. I think im starting to see a picture emerging here, can anyone else see it??

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[quote user="-.-. .-.. ..- -.-. -.-"]

Sadly Judge....even if the truth were tattooed on the inside of their eyelids some would still fail to see the facts. The tragedy is that we will have to hit rock bottom as a club before the fog finally clears....and then it will be literally years before we can have any hope of recovery.

Still....Que sera and all that.....[:)]

[/quote]

Although I often understand and appreciate your seasoned and experienced views on life and this club, Cluck, I wonder about your sense of perspective on this one. How far down is your definiton of "rock bottom"? Even if we were to get relegated to Div One I wouldn''t describe it as that! Do you, in all honestly, expect us to continue spiralling down the leagues until we''re propping up the local pub league with attendances of three men and their dog on a muddy, crap-sodden playing field? That would be my idea of rock bottom.

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[quote user="-.-. .-.. ..- -.-. -.-"]

Sadly Judge....even if the truth were tattooed on the inside of their eyelids some would still fail to see the facts. The tragedy is that we will have to hit rock bottom as a club before the fog finally clears....and then it will be literally years before we can have any hope of recovery.

Still....Que sera and all that.....[:)]

 

 

[/quote]

Why do you support City it they''re that bad then?.

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[quote user="Lincoln Canary"][quote user="-.-. .-.. ..- -.-. -.-"]

Sadly Judge....even if the truth were tattooed on the inside of their eyelids some would still fail to see the facts. The tragedy is that we will have to hit rock bottom as a club before the fog finally clears....and then it will be literally years before we can have any hope of recovery.

Still....Que sera and all that.....[:)]

[/quote]

Although I often understand and appreciate your seasoned and experienced views on life and this club, Cluck, I wonder about your sense of perspective on this one. How far down is your definiton of "rock bottom"? Even if we were to get relegated to Div One I wouldn''t describe it as that! Do you, in all honestly, expect us to continue spiralling down the leagues until we''re propping up the local pub league with attendances of three men and their dog on a muddy, crap-sodden playing field? That would be my idea of rock bottom.

[/quote]

Dependent on our individual expectations of NCFC...."rock bottom" could mean many things I agree.

For me...I go back to the early sixties when the club was struggling to make headway, yet we always managed to stay in the old Division Two somehow....if often only just. Today we find ourselves pretty much back there....and this I consider to be a very sad state of affairs given the huge income and solid support the club has enjoyed over the past several years. So...."rock bottom" to me would not necessarily mean the relegation haunted side....deep in debt that we now are....but relegation to Division 3 (old money) most certainly would.

We are not a Bournemouth or Chesterfield....and we must not allow ourselves to become such...but, that I fear is where we are heading under the current regime... While this may not bother some, I think 24000 regular supporters deserve rather better.....and if we think getting promotion from the "Championship" is tough...wait until we drop even lower! 

Que sera is as apt a term to use as any I think...because there is not a thing any of us can do to stop it....other than maybe see it coming.

 

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[quote user="Mr.Carrow"][quote user="mystic megson"]

Am I missing something?  I thought the parachute money was in effect a bonus on top of our normal income, and that for the past two seasons we''ve had money that most other clubs in this division haven''t.  The club has misused it appallingly, but we should not be in a worse position than 17 other Championship clubs next season (assuming we stay in this division of course), and probably better off than many.  If we run into major money problems it is purely down to incompetent financial management.

In other words, Neil & Co, it''s your fault.  Stop bleating and SORT IT OUT!

 

[/quote]

Im glad you made this point mystic as im getting tired of stating the bleeding obvious....The team has been allowed to drift backwards over a spell when the club has been recieving huge extra income ON TOP OF normal income. Parachute payments,land deal money,hotel money,G.Watlings 1.5m loan written off, share offer money and just as icing on the cake, a massive profit on transfers. No doubt someone will bring up the wage bill for the last financial year however,if you include the 6m profit made on transfers (treated as "exceptional" in the accounts) the player wage bill is less than one third of overall income-most clubs run at over 50% of income on player wages. Dont forget many of the higher earners have now left.

So here we have a club which has been raking in the cash, with a paper thin first team squad devoid of investment and struggling near the foot of the table and a chairman who admits the club is "obsessed" with off-pitch issues. I think im starting to see a picture emerging here, can anyone else see it??

[/quote]

That is an interesting way to read the accounts. Transfer income or expenditure is such a variable item that it would no sense to include it in any argument that shows wages as a percentage of turnover. Doubly so when a large portion of transfer fees are phased payments.

However on page 8 of  the 2006 Report it clearly states £6.1 million in player purchases and £10.1 million in player sales. It also says that we have in fact paid out £781,000 more than we recieved last year.

The main thrust of the transfer information is to show that over the last 6 seasons we paid £17.1 million for new players and recieved £16.6 million for those we sold. That represents a half million deficet. So where is this mythical pot of gold you seem to believe exists?

 The only silver lining I can detect in these figures is that we are still owed nearly £3.6 million in phased payments (presumably for Ashton & McKenzie). Peoples perception of big profits from transfer income do not seem to be backed up by the figures in the accounts.

 

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[quote user="mystic megson"]

Am I missing something?  I thought the parachute money was in effect a bonus on top of our normal income, and that for the past two seasons we''ve had money that most other clubs in this division haven''t.  The club has misused it appallingly, but we should not be in a worse position than 17 other Championship clubs next season (assuming we stay in this division of course), and probably better off than many.  If we run into major money problems it is purely down to incompetent financial management.

In other words, Neil & Co, it''s your fault.  Stop bleating and SORT IT OUT!

 [/quote]

Get real mystic - do you think Ashton and Earnshaw, two consecutive record smashing signings, are appalling misuses of money? Or that signing them would have been remotely possible without using the money from the prem and the parachute payments following relegation? The parachute payments are absolutely critical to promoted clubs. Without them they wouldn''t be able to strengthen at all to try and compete. As it is even with them they are limited to who they can buy. Yet you seem to be suggesting the clubs don''t use them!! Or that if they do it''s a misuse of the money. If we had the time again, you wouldn''t do anything different in respect of those signings which were made possible by the prem and parachute monies.

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From what i understand and have heard , getting rid of just two big earners alone will save us over £1 million per year. The two concerned were not in the starting line up the other night and neither were they injured.

I wonder how many others on big money are surplus to requirements.

Sadly i think Earnie may also have to be sacrificed in the summer. i hope not cos his goal record is second to none, but i sussect he is not only way the biggest earner at the club but also comfortably worth the biggest transfer fee.[:(]

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The size of the debt is largely irrelevant, as long as you can afford to service the debt, which we can because of the way it''s structured.

Ok£20M is a hell of a lot, but it''s about one year''s turnover, so not the end of the World and, to put it into persepective, it''s a fraction of the debt of Man Utd and is anyone seriously suggesting they''re in financial trouble?

What''s inportant to us is how we maximise revenues (and, before anyone asks, no, I don''t mean through player sales) so as much as possible gets spent on the team, whether that''s by wages, transfer fees or a combination of the two.

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[quote user="mystic megson"]

Am I missing something?  I thought the parachute money was in effect a bonus on top of our normal income, and that for the past two seasons we''ve had money that most other clubs in this division haven''t.  The club has misused it appallingly, but we should not be in a worse position than 17 other Championship clubs next season (assuming we stay in this division of course), and probably better off than many.  If we run into major money problems it is purely down to incompetent financial management.

In other words, Neil & Co, it''s your fault.  Stop bleating and SORT IT OUT!

 

[/quote]

 

MM thank you.

 

We didn''t have the parachute money for years yet still managed to pay a full squad without sinking into tens of millions of debt.

 Since we''ve had the PM we''ve sunk into debt to the tune of approx £20 mill whilst paying a smaller makeshift squad. And if you take out the stand money we''ve effectively stood still instead of posting a £7+£2.5 mill profit (before anyone says).

That is mismanagement at Board level. Its undeniable!

 

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Why worry , we have had parachute payments for the last 2 seasons and with the amount and calibre of players we have signed will we really miss it ? even with the payments we seem to do far less transfer buisiness than most clubs . Whatever money we have at this club it will always vanish into thin air .

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[quote user="a1canary"][quote user="mystic megson"]

Am I missing something?  I thought the parachute money was in effect a bonus on top of our normal income, and that for the past two seasons we''ve had money that most other clubs in this division haven''t.  The club has misused it appallingly, but we should not be in a worse position than 17 other Championship clubs next season (assuming we stay in this division of course), and probably better off than many.  If we run into major money problems it is purely down to incompetent financial management.

In other words, Neil & Co, it''s your fault.  Stop bleating and SORT IT OUT!

 [/quote]


Get real mystic - do you think Ashton and Earnshaw, two consecutive record smashing signings, are appalling misuses of money? Or that signing them would have been remotely possible without using the money from the prem and the parachute payments following relegation? The parachute payments are absolutely critical to promoted clubs. Without them they wouldn''t be able to strengthen at all to try and compete. As it is even with them they are limited to who they can buy. Yet you seem to be suggesting the clubs don''t use them!! Or that if they do it''s a misuse of the money. If we had the time again, you wouldn''t do anything different in respect of those signings which were made possible by the prem and parachute monies.
[/quote]

Get real?

1] Ashton was bought with Prem money.

2] Earnshaw was bought with some of the Ashton money.

3]The parachute payments have been wasted on (a) the obscene wage payments post-Prem &           (b) the purchase/lease of Worthington''s ill-chosen journeymen & loanees.

4] This year''s Cup run proceeds (essentially bonus unbudgeted income) will be frittered away mostly on the shortfall being experienced in financing scenario 3] above. Grant may be given a slice* of these for the football side (*by definition less than a quarter). Source: Roger Munby.

The huge error post-Prem was the strategy of trying to finance a quick return to the Prem through an obscene wage bill. All players (pre-promotion) should have been put on contracts which immediately put them back on pre-Prem wages upon relegation. And significant payment bonuses should have been in place for the post-Prem triggered by (a) a top 6 finish and (b) even more so by automatic promotion.

It would be interesting to know if  the ruinous post-Prem player payment stategy echoed the then management team''s personal contractual arrangements. If so, then both players and management would have existed post-Prem in unearned personal financial comfort zones.

The parachute payments (14m pounds!!!) should never have been used to finance recurrent expenditure. They should have been isolated and cocooned for capital (investment) expenditure on the football department only - mainly player purchasesb and staff performance incentives.

 We would then have had a lean and fit club geared for further success.

The present situation is that we are under very real threat of relegation back to the third division for the first time in 46 years - yes, 46 years.

This is not negativity, it''s cold stark realism.

I hope & pray that Peter Grant can work a miracle on a shoestring, but fear that if he does so the same soft-nosed lot will make the same errors again. But I do believe that his heart and head (together with those of Hucks & Dion) are in the right place - so good luck Peter, and bring us back that warm & fuxxy feeling we love so much.

And that''s the reality, my friends.

One love.

OTBC..............and never mind the danger.     

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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[quote user="a1canary"][quote user="mystic megson"]

Am I missing something?  I thought the parachute money was in effect a bonus on top of our normal income, and that for the past two seasons we''ve had money that most other clubs in this division haven''t.  The club has misused it appallingly, but we should not be in a worse position than 17 other Championship clubs next season (assuming we stay in this division of course), and probably better off than many.  If we run into major money problems it is purely down to incompetent financial management.

In other words, Neil & Co, it''s your fault.  Stop bleating and SORT IT OUT!

 [/quote]


Get real mystic - do you think Ashton and Earnshaw, two consecutive record smashing signings, are appalling misuses of money? Or that signing them would have been remotely possible without using the money from the prem and the parachute payments following relegation? The parachute payments are absolutely critical to promoted clubs. Without them they wouldn''t be able to strengthen at all to try and compete. As it is even with them they are limited to who they can buy. Yet you seem to be suggesting the clubs don''t use them!! Or that if they do it''s a misuse of the money. If we had the time again, you wouldn''t do anything different in respect of those signings which were made possible by the prem and parachute monies.
[/quote]

Get real?

1] Ashton was bought with Prem money.

2] Earnshaw was bought with some of the Ashton money.

3]The parachute payments have been wasted on (a) the obscene wage payments post-Prem &           (b) the purchase/lease of Worthington''s ill-chosen journeymen & loanees.

4] This year''s Cup run proceeds (essentially bonus unbudgeted income) will be frittered away mostly on the shortfall being experienced in financing scenario 3] above. Grant may be given a slice* of these for the football side (*by definition less than a quarter). Source: Roger Munby.

The huge error post-Prem was the strategy of trying to finance a quick return to the Prem through an obscene wage bill. All players (pre-promotion) should have been put on contracts which immediately put them back on pre-Prem wages upon relegation. And significant payment bonuses should have been in place for the post-Prem triggered by (a) a top 6 finish and (b) even more so by automatic promotion.

It would be interesting to know if  the ruinous post-Prem player payment stategy echoed the then management team''s personal contractual arrangements. If so, then both players and management would have existed post-Prem in unearned personal financial comfort zones.

The parachute payments (14m pounds!!!) should never have been used to finance recurrent expenditure. They should have been isolated and cocooned for capital (investment) expenditure on the football department only - mainly player purchasesb and staff performance incentives.

 We would then have had a lean and fit club geared for further success.

The present situation is that we are under very real threat of relegation back to the third division for the first time in 46 years - yes, 46 years.

This is not negativity, it''s cold stark realism.

I hope & pray that Peter Grant can work a miracle on a shoestring, but fear that if he does so the same soft-nosed lot will make the same errors again. But I do believe that his heart and head (together with those of Hucks & Dion) are in the right place - so good luck Peter, and bring us back that warm & fuxxy feeling we love so much.

And that''s the reality, my friends.

One love.

OTBC..............and never mind the danger.     

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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