Sheff Weds - Four groups in takeover talks

ricardo · February 12, 2007

[quote user="jas the barclay king"]

the whole Difference between us and the "wens''deh" is that they are perceived by fans, management, and board as a Big club.

our board see us as a little club pottering about always smiling.. thats why people want Wednesday and not us... they see potential in a club that wants to go somewhere...

jas :)

[/quote]

Perhaps they see a has been as better than a never was.

Painful to swallow but true none the less.

Cluck · February 12, 2007

[quote user="ricardo"][quote user="-.-. .-.. ..- -.-. -.-"]

The whole point is that if Delia and MWJ "love" this club as much as they and others claim....why are they so content to see City potentially relegated and wallowing in obscurity before considering handing over the reigns?

It''s all about money....and all about Delia''s business empire....so the argument about valuation only goes to show how "investment" here way over-rides "sentiment". It''s a good job Geoffrey Watling never saw it this way.......

I repeat that I would not invest a penny in this club while the current "dictatorial" situation stands...and only a mug would do so. Millionaires......it goes without saying are not mugs.

Stalemate and stagnate are the key words at Carrow Road right now.

[/quote]

If its all about money why would Delia and MWJ be content to see a relegation that reduces the value of their investment? That arguement seems to be totally illogical.

As to the advisability of investing money in football, I guess you could say that we supporters are all mugs. There is no guarentee that money brings success. There are six or seven teams in this league who have spent a lot of money this season, gambling on promotion but only three will go up.

I just think its far to simplistic to say that if we invest 5 or 6 million in new players we will automatically go up. History is littered with examples of clubs getting out of their depth financially. Whoever the stewards of our club turn out to be I believe their first duty is to ensure we continue to have a viable club for the forseeable future and not just today.

Personally I don''t care who owns the club as long as they make every reasonable attempt to progress. At the moment I would have agree that the present reigeme seem a bit like a rabbit caught in the headlights.

[/quote]

The reason DS and Co are content to sit it out is that the present level of championship football meets their needs. The cost of running a club at this level is much less than the Premiership....and if "prudently" run, with large gates....they are chuckling. Ambition is something we fans have...not the Board.

If gates plummet....and the teams flops........watch them call in as much cash as they can on their way out of the door. Having said that though....there is nothing wrong with this strategy at all....as it makes business sense.....However, we''re constantly being led to believe that NCFC means "much more than that" to DS......and it is this particular "myth" I would like to see brought out into the open.

beelsie · February 12, 2007

Judge!! your point about Delias statement is exactly right IMO. It was a conditional statement and not an openmarket statement. (You can buy our club at our price with these conditions) unfortunately we are not privy to those conditions therefore as said previously cannot decide whether they are favourable or not to NCFC. So again we are biting at the bit and are short of facts unfortunately.

What it amounts to sadly is that we have not got the financial clout that we need. However it is not impossible to achieve if we wait long enough, even with the present board. Best wishes are in order I think.

Smudger · February 12, 2007

[quote user="Mr.Carrow"][quote user="ricardo"]

Agreed that it was a long time ago Smudge, but thats what the word Historically means. The honours they have won are just as relevant as those won by Norwich City in the same period of time.

I have never said that Norwich can not be a top flight team. My analysis is that we are the equal of a lot of teams with top flight ambition Derby, Ipswich, Sunderland, W.B.A. Coventry, Notts Forest, Southampton etc.

We have no more God given right to be in the top league than they have and no better backing in terms of crowd potential. I would also imagine that their supporters also think that they deserve to be top flight. Unfortunately there are only eighteen teams in the top league and Norwich, along with all those I have mentioned will only achieve that in their best years.

[/quote]

Hmmm, none of the clubs you list can sell out their grounds,and probably wont until promotion is virtually guaranteed-just look at Sheff.Utd and Reading last season. We,on the other hand, still have more season ticket holders than any of those clubs and can sell out a game 2 weeks in advance (Leeds) despite the team being asset-stripped and performing dreadfully since we were relegated. Ever considered what the demand would be if we were actually any good? Even our board have stated that demand was there for regular 35,000 crowds over the last few years.

The Birmingham clubs are a good example of why this argument of "its a bigger city,so it must be a bigger club" is totally flawed. Wolves,Birmingham and West Brom all struggle to sell 20,000 seats per game yet they are all regarded as much bigger clubs than Norwich because they are in Englands second City. The fact is is that they are all competing-along with Villa and to a lesser extent Coventry and Walsall-for a small slice of a big pie. City,on the other hand, draw support from an area with a population of over 1 million (Norfolk+Waveney area of Suffolk) with very little in the way of competition. I think it is pretty obvious which is the best position to be in.

As Smudger has said the smallest thing about NCFC is the mindset of alot of its supporters-and unfortunately the people currently running the club.

[/quote]

Exactly MR CARROW...

I was born in the Midlands and know for a fact that maybe with the exception of Aston Villa there is no club there with as much potential as Norwich City right now...

Even my brothers girlfriend (a Walsall fan) has apparantly said that she can''t believe that some of these clubs in the Midlands think that they are big. When the clamour for tickets at Carrow Road in recent years, despite the c**p served up to the paying is second to none.

YES we are a bigger club than Nottingham Forest, Derby County, Birmingham City, Wolves, West Brom, Leicester, Coventry and the two Sheffield Clubs... We just need our fans to start believing that fact and demanding that we have a board at the helm that recognises that with a little ambition we can achieve great things!!!

Smudger · February 12, 2007

[quote user="beelsie"]

Judge!! your point about Delias statement is exactly right IMO. It was a conditional statement and not an openmarket statement. (You can buy our club at our price with these conditions) unfortunately we are not privy to those conditions therefore as said previously cannot decide whether they are favourable or not to NCFC. So again we are biting at the bit and are short of facts unfortunately.

What it amounts to sadly is that we have not got the financial clout that we need. However it is not impossible to achieve if we wait long enough, even with the present board. Best wishes are in order I think.

[/quote]

Well any new investor has to be a NCFC fan living in the county of Norfolk according to what Doncaster told me only a few weeks or so prior to Delia making her infamous statement.

Weeks and weeks of careful planning went in to Delia''s statement... She has no intention of selling up no matter what offer is put on the table right now.

The statement was a ploy used by the current board to buy a bit of time with the fans hoping that we can scramble to safety in the coming months and keep the fans on side with yet more lies of who we are going to sign and how we are going to build a squad capable of challenging for promotion next season given to us in the summer!!!

ricardo · February 12, 2007

[quote user="-.-. .-.. ..- -.-. -.-"][

The reason DS and Co are content to sit it out is that the present level of championship football meets their needs. The cost of running a club at this level is much less than the Premiership....and if "prudently" run, with large gates....they are chuckling. Ambition is something we fans have...not the Board.

If gates plummet....and the teams flops........watch them call in as much cash as they can on their way out of the door. Having said that though....there is nothing wrong with this strategy at all....as it makes business sense.....However, we''re constantly being led to believe that NCFC means "much more than that" to DS......and it is this particular "myth" I would like to see brought out into the open.

[/quote]

An honest analysis Cluck and you may very well be correct in your assumptions but would you be prepared to speculate a fortune on nothing more than a possibility of success. I seem to remember that Wolves had a backer with very deep pockets but long term success for them remains as ellusive as ever.

I just don''t see queues of multi-millionaires lining up to take Norwich City on. IF delia put up the club for sale tomorrow are we really likely to be in a better position.

As I said Cluck, you could be proved right but at this moment I remain unconvinced.

Smudger · February 12, 2007

[quote user="-.-. .-.. ..- -.-. -.-"][quote user="ricardo"][quote user="-.-. .-.. ..- -.-. -.-"]

The whole point is that if Delia and MWJ "love" this club as much as they and others claim....why are they so content to see City potentially relegated and wallowing in obscurity before considering handing over the reigns?

It''s all about money....and all about Delia''s business empire....so the argument about valuation only goes to show how "investment" here way over-rides "sentiment". It''s a good job Geoffrey Watling never saw it this way.......

I repeat that I would not invest a penny in this club while the current "dictatorial" situation stands...and only a mug would do so. Millionaires......it goes without saying are not mugs.

Stalemate and stagnate are the key words at Carrow Road right now.

[/quote]

If its all about money why would Delia and MWJ be content to see a relegation that reduces the value of their investment? That arguement seems to be totally illogical.

As to the advisability of investing money in football, I guess you could say that we supporters are all mugs. There is no guarentee that money brings success. There are six or seven teams in this league who have spent a lot of money this season, gambling on promotion but only three will go up.

I just think its far to simplistic to say that if we invest 5 or 6 million in new players we will automatically go up. History is littered with examples of clubs getting out of their depth financially. Whoever the stewards of our club turn out to be I believe their first duty is to ensure we continue to have a viable club for the forseeable future and not just today.

Personally I don''t care who owns the club as long as they make every reasonable attempt to progress. At the moment I would have agree that the present reigeme seem a bit like a rabbit caught in the headlights.

[/quote]

The reason DS and Co are content to sit it out is that the present level of championship football meets their needs. The cost of running a club at this level is much less than the Premiership....and if "prudently" run, with large gates....they are chuckling. Ambition is something we fans have...not the Board.

If gates plummet....and the teams flops........watch them call in as much cash as they can on their way out of the door. Having said that though....there is nothing wrong with this strategy at all....as it makes business sense.....However, we''re constantly being led to believe that NCFC means "much more than that" to DS......and it is this particular "myth" I would like to see brought out into the open.

[/quote]

You and I both know that to be true don''t we Cluck??? [Y]

Hey have you checked your private messages out Cluck? I sent you one asking you about your business that you often refer to.

I am currently trying to set up in business myself... trying to push the boat out and get as much of a financial loan as possible at the moment (you know that is my style) [;)] so am getting some help off NWES.

beelsie · February 12, 2007

CJF what you say is conjecture and founded on hopes. You are well aware that whatever and whenever we spend money on players. You can never depend on how they will perform, or if indeed they will. Maybe in the future I can hope that we buy players with undoubted talent who will perform to 90% of their potential regularly. Also spending more than you earn as did the two clubs in question leads you into debt. Then we would be in the embarrassing situation of having to pay our suppliers 10P in the pound until the year dot. I think that the majority of fans would rather we play our football and pay our bills and reach a level that we can sustain within our financial constraints. That is the way I believe I can enjoy being a spectator as well as remain a fan. Some on here expect that Delia and co will fork out more personal money for players. I for one hope she doesn''t, as far as I am concerned the club should be able to buy the players it can afford, and play at the level they deserve to be at.

ricardo · February 12, 2007

[quote user="Smudger"][quote user="Mr.Carrow"][quote user="ricardo"]

Agreed that it was a long time ago Smudge, but thats what the word Historically means. The honours they have won are just as relevant as those won by Norwich City in the same period of time.

I have never said that Norwich can not be a top flight team. My analysis is that we are the equal of a lot of teams with top flight ambition Derby, Ipswich, Sunderland, W.B.A. Coventry, Notts Forest, Southampton etc.

We have no more God given right to be in the top league than they have and no better backing in terms of crowd potential. I would also imagine that their supporters also think that they deserve to be top flight. Unfortunately there are only eighteen teams in the top league and Norwich, along with all those I have mentioned will only achieve that in their best years.

[/quote]

Hmmm, none of the clubs you list can sell out their grounds,and probably wont until promotion is virtually guaranteed-just look at Sheff.Utd and Reading last season. We,on the other hand, still have more season ticket holders than any of those clubs and can sell out a game 2 weeks in advance (Leeds) despite the team being asset-stripped and performing dreadfully since we were relegated. Ever considered what the demand would be if we were actually any good? Even our board have stated that demand was there for regular 35,000 crowds over the last few years.

The Birmingham clubs are a good example of why this argument of "its a bigger city,so it must be a bigger club" is totally flawed. Wolves,Birmingham and West Brom all struggle to sell 20,000 seats per game yet they are all regarded as much bigger clubs than Norwich because they are in Englands second City. The fact is is that they are all competing-along with Villa and to a lesser extent Coventry and Walsall-for a small slice of a big pie. City,on the other hand, draw support from an area with a population of over 1 million (Norfolk+Waveney area of Suffolk) with very little in the way of competition. I think it is pretty obvious which is the best position to be in.

As Smudger has said the smallest thing about NCFC is the mindset of alot of its supporters-and unfortunately the people currently running the club.

[/quote]

Exactly MR CARROW...

I was born in the Midlands and know for a fact that maybe with the exception of Aston Villa there is no club there with as much potential as Norwich City right now...

Even my brothers girlfriend (a Walsall fan) has apparantly said that she can''t believe that some of these clubs in the Midlands think that they are big. When the clamour for tickets at Carrow Road in recent years, despite the c**p served up to the paying is second to none.

YES we are a bigger club than Nottingham Forest, Derby County, Birmingham City, Wolves, West Brom, Leicester, Coventry and the two Sheffield Clubs... We just need our fans to start believing that fact and demanding that we have a board at the helm that recognises that with a little ambition we can achieve great things!!!

[/quote]

So we are a bigger club than League champions, F.A. cup winners and even two time European Champions. OH! if it were only true Smudger. Laughable is the only word I can think of for this claim. We have won precious little in our history and can''t even claim to be bigger than our nearest rivals. Ipswich have achieved more than us and in a shorter time span. Wishfull thinking will never beat trophys in the cupboard.

I would concede that we are on a par with a few of those named above but to claim we are bigger is to enter the realms of fantasy. We have never been bigger in my lifetime of supporting Norwich. I can only hope for your sake that you live long enough to see it happen.

Branston Pickle · February 12, 2007

[quote user="ricardo"]

I am sorry Mr. Carrow but your plea for seniority over the likes of Leeds, Wolves, W.B.A. etc just does not hold water historically. You are talking about clubs with League championships and F.A. Cup wins to their credit. Something Norwich City unfortunately have never achieved. In the light of that, Norwich Citys ability to play to near full houses appears more of a triumph of hope over reality.

We may not like it and we may think we deserve better but the plain fact remains (and history has proved) that we are in a pack of a dozen or so clubs that can only achieve top flight status on a temporary basis. I had hoped that our good run in the eighties and early nineties might change this but as with the likes of Ipswich, we were unable to sustain it.

I am sure you don''t need me to remind you that Ipswich HAVE won a championship an F.A. Cup and a European Trophy and historically their gates have been similar to ours. Every claim you make regarding population and area can be equally applied to them. You could even make the same claim for Plymouth Argyle a city with twice the population of Norwich and a similar rural hinterland.

If it were just a case of mindset we could will it to be different but unfortunately the cold reality is we are a second flight club with top flight pretensions. It is nothing to be ashamed of and I look forward with pleasure to our next promotion to the big league, as do the supporters of Ipswich, Wolves, Derby and all those other clubs on a similar level to us.

[/quote]

I have to agree with this - there are relatively few sides whose supporters don''t think their side is ''big'', either within their division or in terms of football in general, and they all have plenty of back up available to ''prove'' it; it is part of being a supporter that you expect better than you are getting from your side if they aren''t winning/in the top flight - if you didn''t want that you''d be mad.

Re: Wednesday, they are my second side as my Mrs is from up there. The simple fact about population is that Sheffield is the 6th biggest city in the country with a population of c600k, the entire county of Norfolk''s is 800k. If you want a ''sleeping giant'' you really could look no further, and they are ripe for investment. That''s not to say we aren''t - but we are a different proposition in many ways. As for the ground, it is one of my favourites, rather than being run down - it is amazing how people''s opinions differ!! - It has plenty of character and a huge kop end, though I guess the away end is a bit pants.

Just something to consider, though - one of my best mates is a Brighton fan, and if you are looking for a side similar to us they are quite a good one in many ways, they have a strong history in Div 3 South and then alternating between Divs 2 and 1, maybe not with our ''pedigree'' but not far off in terms of recent playing ability - but that is my point: they are a prime indication of how things can go tits up if you get the wrong guy in...I can''t be bothered to go into the details but basically they got someone in who ended up only being interested in selling their ground, which really left them shafted and they had to share with Gillingham for several seasons, and are only just recovering. It can easily work both ways.

Cluck · February 12, 2007

Private messages?.......I didn''t know there was such a thing on here. God...I bet I''ve got some belters on there if I cared to look!............I will investigate!.............[:)]

chicken · February 13, 2007

[quote user="Stephen Frys Evil Twin"]

Sorry, remind me who''s being naive...

I think you''d be hard-pushed to find a single club amongst the top 92 that isn''t on the lookout for outside investment.

[/quote]

I don''t think you read my post correctly. Ofcourse our club is looking for more investment as do all clubs, its just that they don''t tend to go looking for new owners unless the conditions also previously mentioned are met.

With Sunderland the jury still has to be out, they were bought out by a consortium lead by Nial Quin - who has the club close to his heart. A bit like a consortium lead by Iwan taking over our club, the problem is he has made a couple of blunders this season as well as successes not to mention having found strong funding.

However considering Sunderland is of similar stature to Middlesborough and Leeds you do have to wonder.

I don''t think the real problem lies with fans that feel Norwich is a small club - this was not the case the season we went up. Infact it was more an attitude developed in that season as we found it hard to compete financially as we were still working on a 1st Division budget as you get very little money up front for promotion considering most of the money comes from Sky in installments over the season. In some ways I would prefer to have one season of Parachutes and an extra £6million up front for promotion to give teams more of a chance.

Back on point I believe that the people who are pointing fingers and saying you should not be saying that this is not a big club are infact in some sort of denial. For example, I believe that God exhists (sorry to bring the religion argument up here) and I know a lot of people who don''t. But we don''t need to argue about it because there is simply no point.

I don''t care whether you think the club is big, small, medium, fat, tall, spotty, hairy or not green and yella it is absoloutly no excuse not to get behind your team or to turn on other members of the fanbase.

This argument is another rediculus excercise in a long list of attempted attacks on the club which have no basis. Apparently the club should be looking for new majority shareholders - who says they arn''t? Why should they look? Surely they would invite investors and if one was interested enough for a take over then take it from there.

Then you get arguments from someone about an away ground who has admitted not being to a home match for the best part of two seasons who probably hasnt been to the said stadium for longer than that. Its a bit like a Derby fan saying isnt Carrow Road useless with that creeky old South Stand! After remenissing on a fixture there in 1998 or similar.

Mr.Carrow · February 13, 2007

[quote user="Branston Pickle"][quote user="ricardo"]

I am sorry Mr. Carrow but your plea for seniority over the likes of Leeds, Wolves, W.B.A. etc just does not hold water historically. You are talking about clubs with League championships and F.A. Cup wins to their credit. Something Norwich City unfortunately have never achieved. In the light of that, Norwich Citys ability to play to near full houses appears more of a triumph of hope over reality.

We may not like it and we may think we deserve better but the plain fact remains (and history has proved) that we are in a pack of a dozen or so clubs that can only achieve top flight status on a temporary basis. I had hoped that our good run in the eighties and early nineties might change this but as with the likes of Ipswich, we were unable to sustain it.

I am sure you don''t need me to remind you that Ipswich HAVE won a championship an F.A. Cup and a European Trophy and historically their gates have been similar to ours. Every claim you make regarding population and area can be equally applied to them. You could even make the same claim for Plymouth Argyle a city with twice the population of Norwich and a similar rural hinterland.

If it were just a case of mindset we could will it to be different but unfortunately the cold reality is we are a second flight club with top flight pretensions. It is nothing to be ashamed of and I look forward with pleasure to our next promotion to the big league, as do the supporters of Ipswich, Wolves, Derby and all those other clubs on a similar level to us.

[/quote]

I have to agree with this - there are relatively few sides whose supporters don''t think their side is ''big'', either within their division or in terms of football in general, and they all have plenty of back up available to ''prove'' it; it is part of being a supporter that you expect better than you are getting from your side if they aren''t winning/in the top flight - if you didn''t want that you''d be mad.

Re: Wednesday, they are my second side as my Mrs is from up there. The simple fact about population is that Sheffield is the 6th biggest city in the country with a population of c600k, the entire county of Norfolk''s is 800k. If you want a ''sleeping giant'' you really could look no further, and they are ripe for investment. That''s not to say we aren''t - but we are a different proposition in many ways. As for the ground, it is one of my favourites, rather than being run down - it is amazing how people''s opinions differ!! - It has plenty of character and a huge kop end, though I guess the away end is a bit pants.

Just something to consider, though - one of my best mates is a Brighton fan, and if you are looking for a side similar to us they are quite a good one in many ways, they have a strong history in Div 3 South and then alternating between Divs 2 and 1, maybe not with our ''pedigree'' but not far off in terms of recent playing ability - but that is my point: they are a prime indication of how things can go tits up if you get the wrong guy in...I can''t be bothered to go into the details but basically they got someone in who ended up only being interested in selling their ground, which really left them shafted and they had to share with Gillingham for several seasons, and are only just recovering. It can easily work both ways.

[/quote]

Sheffield is a fairly large city which is shared by TWO very well supported clubs with competion nearby from Barnsley,Doncaster,Rotherham,Chesterfield and Leeds and Manchester not too far away. Norfolk has a population of 840,000 with ONE established club and minor competition from a struggling club 45 miles away.

Cluck · February 13, 2007

[quote user="chicken"][quote user="Stephen Frys Evil Twin"]