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The Judge

Sheff Weds - Four groups in takeover talks

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With the financial difficulties Sheff Weds are in (£26m in debt) and they are attracting suitors - surely Norwich with smaller debts, 24,000+ crowds each week, good stadium/training facilities/academy etc etc should be able to attract investors to ?

We all know we are in financial difficulties and they are only going to get worse next season and Delia stated at the AGM she was "prepared" to sell out to the right people. My concern is that she said those words without really meaning them. It seems their are people out there wanting to invest in football if you are really looking for them - the question is are we ? My guess is no - and the aspirations and dreams of the majority of supporters will continue to be frustrated by this current lack luster board.

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Agree 110% and have been stating my opinion from the day Delia said it JUDGE...  [Y]

Not many on here will agree with you until it is far too late though!!!

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[quote user="Smudger"]

Agree 110% and have been stating my opinion from the day Delia said it JUDGE...  [Y]

Not many on here will agree with you until it is far too late though!!!

[/quote]

Too late for what smudge??

BTW mate, do we still "stink of relegation"? Hope you didn''t take that 12/1 last week because bet365 go 15/1 now. If you wait until March we could be a huge price. But then again without a league game until the 20th Feb if the clubs below us pick up points we could be as short as 10/1 without kicking another ball. You pay your money and take your chance! What do you think?

 

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[quote user="The Judge"]

With the financial difficulties Sheff Weds are in (£26m in debt) and they are attracting suitors - surely Norwich with smaller debts, 24,000+ crowds each week, good stadium/training facilities/academy etc etc should be able to attract investors to ?

[/quote]

However, Wednesday are historically a much bigger club in a much bigger city than Norwich. It is no surprise therefore that they are attracting more suitors than us.

Investors are not stupid and obviously see Wednesday as having more potential.

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A good realistic post.....but I fear few will acknowledge it as relevant to our present situation. Of course there would be suitors should this club genuinely be offered for sale......but the fact is it isn''t and if DS is waiting for that Norfolk billionaire to arrive on a white charger....we''ll be waiting an eternity.

It''s Delia''s little train set.....and it will go round and round till the wheels fall off........

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[quote user="ricardo"][quote user="The Judge"]

With the financial difficulties Sheff Weds are in (£26m in debt) and they are attracting suitors - surely Norwich with smaller debts, 24,000+ crowds each week, good stadium/training facilities/academy etc etc should be able to attract investors to ?

[/quote]

However, Wednesday are historically a much bigger club in a much bigger city than Norwich. It is no surprise therefore that they are attracting more suitors than us.

Investors are not stupid and obviously see Wednesday as having more potential.

[/quote]

While Sheffield is a City two or 3 times bigger than Norwich...  Surely City have a far larger catchment area with the whole of Norfolk and parts of North Suffolk and Cmabridgeshire to draw upon?

Sheff Weds have a catchment area of aproximately 500,000 to 1 million people which is divided equally between themselves and Sheff Utd, plus several smaller teams such as Rotherham, Chesterfield, Doncaster etc.  Many fans in the Sheffield area probably also follow Leeds (being the biggest club in Yorkshire).

NCFC who have a catchment area of more than 1 million people... with no other league clubs in Norfolk or Cmabridgeshire... the North Suffolk area seems to have an equal division of NCFC fans and scummers also.

What have Sheff Weds ever won???  They have a decaying stadium which is half empty every week and they do not have the ability to pull in any more fans than we do.  They also have larger debts and any buyer would have to invest a much larger amount in Sheff Weds than they would in a modern 21st century club and city like Norwich.

Obviously these facts pretty much shoot your burying your head in the sand arguement down in flames though don''t they???

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[quote user="The Judge"]

With the financial difficulties Sheff Weds are in (£26m in debt) and they are attracting suitors - surely Norwich with smaller debts, 24,000+ crowds each week, good stadium/training facilities/academy etc etc should be able to attract investors to ?

We all know we are in financial difficulties and they are only going to get worse next season and Delia stated at the AGM she was "prepared" to sell out to the right people. My concern is that she said those words without really meaning them. It seems their are people out there wanting to invest in football if you are really looking for them - the question is are we ? My guess is no - and the aspirations and dreams of the majority of supporters will continue to be frustrated by this current lack luster board.

[/quote]

I seem to recall that the answer went along the lines of, if we sell out, we''d receive the money, which we don''t actually need, but the club wouldn''t actually receive any benefit from such a sale. And that''s the problem with a direct sell out, all we''d get is a different owner with the same percentage majority share holding.

I also recall further comments along the lines of, if anyone wants to come and put new money into the Club (presumably, buying new shares) then they''d be prepared to listen. The problem is, no one has so far come forward.

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our promotion was achieved on the back of extra investment in the club via a share issue, puchased by city fans and generously matched by the city board, allowing us to buy quality players.    this was  THE  successful  policy.  unilaterally, the board decided on ''prudence before ambition'' as the chosen financial policy before the start of the prem and since.   if we''d had got some more investment in before the start of the prem season, who knows?  we could still be in the prem, or we could have gone down anyway - who nows, but rationally, having better players gives you better chance, but that''s all.   the fact is, after this season, financially, we''ll still be better off than before promotion with arguably a better squad.  we could still mount a decent challenge next year.However, its not rocket science - if we attracted some suitable investors onto the board, and bolstered the squad, we would rationally have a better chance of getting back up to the prem.  Attract some money boys in I say - it worked before, why not again? 

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[quote user="Smudger"][quote user="ricardo"][quote user="The Judge"]

With the financial difficulties Sheff Weds are in (£26m in debt) and they are attracting suitors - surely Norwich with smaller debts, 24,000+ crowds each week, good stadium/training facilities/academy etc etc should be able to attract investors to ?

[/quote]

However, Wednesday are historically a much bigger club in a much bigger city than Norwich. It is no surprise therefore that they are attracting more suitors than us.

Investors are not stupid and obviously see Wednesday as having more potential.

[/quote]

While Sheffield is a City two or 3 times bigger than Norwich...  Surely City have a far larger catchment area with the whole of Norfolk and parts of North Suffolk and Cmabridgeshire to draw upon?

Sheff Weds have a catchment area of aproximately 500,000 to 1 million people which is divided equally between themselves and Sheff Utd, plus several smaller teams such as Rotherham, Chesterfield, Doncaster etc.  Many fans in the Sheffield area probably also follow Leeds (being the biggest club in Yorkshire).

NCFC who have a catchment area of more than 1 million people... with no other league clubs in Norfolk or Cmabridgeshire... the North Suffolk area seems to have an equal division of NCFC fans and scummers also.

What have Sheff Weds ever won???  They have a decaying stadium which is half empty every week and they do not have the ability to pull in any more fans than we do.  They also have larger debts and any buyer would have to invest a much larger amount in Sheff Weds than they would in a modern 21st century club and city like Norwich.

Obviously these facts pretty much shoot your burying your head in the sand arguement down in flames though don''t they???

[/quote]

Smudger, I hate to say this but you come across as very naive.

Firstly unless they actually want to sell up why would Delia and Michael LOOK for an investor to sell THEIR shares to. So far as I am aware there is nothing stopping investors coming the club and declaring their interest in purchasing some shares.

This just goes to show the rediculous lengths of which people are prepared to go to have their own personal opinions proven right.

The club does not LOOK for investors - no club or company does unless it is financially unstable or that the current share-holders want to sell up and get out. Even then all they do is publicise this and encourage any interested parties to step forward. Sheff Wednesday has a much larger area and catchment to call upon. If you were to take the same area you have mentioned with them and compare it to Norwich we would loose. They arnt getting people in through the gates at the moment but the potential is defenitely there much like Norwich ''96 - Cardiff play off final.

There are several other teams nearby that we compeat with support wise. One of which being Ipswich believe it or not, and yes I would agree I would hardly call it competing or even that what they do down their is anything like football but there you go. You also have Cambridge and Lincoln plus the fact that the catchment you talk about is spread out over a much larger area than the densely populated areas in and around Sheffield.

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This is another discussion that forever keeps cropping up. It is hopelessly flawed with innuendo supposition and a lack of factual information.  In the world of commerce we are known by those who maybe potential investors who will have seen our position and have decided whether or not they are interested. If there is a business person out there then he will be sure that NCFC as a business proposition laughable, also he will know that football is not where there are megabucks to be made especially in the championship.  The land and infra structure owned by the club might just make a little profit if it is sold off by an asset stripper. For goodness sake realise that there is no one out there who wants a championship NCFC, it will be throwing money down the drain.  If we get into the PREM then with enough investment and with consolidation and the ability to be a mid table club there would be much more interest.  The same goes for Sheff Weds who if Prem material would attract more numbers than us simply because the poorer clubs around that area would fold leaving them and UTD as the source of attractive football in that area.OTBC!!!

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[quote user="beelsie"]This is another discussion that forever keeps cropping up. It is hopelessly flawed with innuendo supposition and a lack of factual information.  In the world of commerce we are known by those who maybe potential investors who will have seen our position and have decided whether or not they are interested. If there is a business person out there then he will be sure that NCFC as a business proposition laughable, also he will know that football is not where there are megabucks to be made especially in the championship.  The land and infra structure owned by the club might just make a little profit if it is sold off by an asset stripper. For goodness sake realise that there is no one out there who wants a championship NCFC, it will be throwing money down the drain.  If we get into the PREM then with enough investment and with consolidation and the ability to be a mid table club there would be much more interest.  The same goes for Sheff Weds who if Prem material would attract more numbers than us simply because the poorer clubs around that area would fold leaving them and UTD as the source of attractive football in that area.OTBC!!![/quote]sound logic - but sheff utd got investors in close season before their triumphant return back to the prem - and have spent to stay up, and look like doing so.  i''m not happy to see warnock strutting the limelight, but he''s doing the biz.  how about derby this season - where''s their dosh coming from - they had the money to spend early in the transfer window, unlike city who had to wait for the scraps on deadline day?also, when we got up, as a prem club and attractive proposition, we surely could have got some money into the club in, rather than gamble on ''prudence than ambition''? 

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[quote user="Smudger"][quote user="ricardo"][quote user="The Judge"]

With the financial difficulties Sheff Weds are in (£26m in debt) and they are attracting suitors - surely Norwich with smaller debts, 24,000+ crowds each week, good stadium/training facilities/academy etc etc should be able to attract investors to ?

[/quote]

However, Wednesday are historically a much bigger club in a much bigger city than Norwich. It is no surprise therefore that they are attracting more suitors than us.

Investors are not stupid and obviously see Wednesday as having more potential.

[/quote]

While Sheffield is a City two or 3 times bigger than Norwich...  Surely City have a far larger catchment area with the whole of Norfolk and parts of North Suffolk and Cmabridgeshire to draw upon?

Sheff Weds have a catchment area of aproximately 500,000 to 1 million people which is divided equally between themselves and Sheff Utd, plus several smaller teams such as Rotherham, Chesterfield, Doncaster etc.  Many fans in the Sheffield area probably also follow Leeds (being the biggest club in Yorkshire).

NCFC who have a catchment area of more than 1 million people... with no other league clubs in Norfolk or Cmabridgeshire... the North Suffolk area seems to have an equal division of NCFC fans and scummers also.

What have Sheff Weds ever won???  They have a decaying stadium which is half empty every week and they do not have the ability to pull in any more fans than we do.  They also have larger debts and any buyer would have to invest a much larger amount in Sheff Weds than they would in a modern 21st century club and city like Norwich.

Obviously these facts pretty much shoot your burying your head in the sand arguement down in flames though don''t they???

[/quote]

Sorry Smudger but your grasp of football history appears to be somewhat weak. What have Sheff Wed ever won?

Err......................... 4 times league champions and 3 F.A. Cups

The stadium is considerably larger than ours and was not dilapidated on my last visit a few years ago and they most certainly do have the ability to pull in larger crowds.

I repeat, although it gives me no pleasure to do so, Wednesday are a much bigger club in a much bigger city and it is no surprise investors find it a better proposition than Norwich.

Nuff said.

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[quote user="-.-. .-.. ..- -.-. -.-"]

A good realistic post.....but I fear few will acknowledge it as relevant to our present situation. Of course there would be suitors should this club genuinely be offered for sale......but the fact is it isn''t and if DS is waiting for that Norfolk billionaire to arrive on a white charger....we''ll be waiting an eternity.

It''s Delia''s little train set.....and it will go round and round till the wheels fall off........

[/quote]

But on another post you said that potential investors wouldn''t want to invest in the club because at present its too well run so they''d have to wait for the price to come down.

 

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[quote user="A load of squit"][quote user="-.-. .-.. ..- -.-. -.-"]

A good realistic post.....but I fear few will acknowledge it as relevant to our present situation. Of course there would be suitors should this club genuinely be offered for sale......but the fact is it isn''t and if DS is waiting for that Norfolk billionaire to arrive on a white charger....we''ll be waiting an eternity.

It''s Delia''s little train set.....and it will go round and round till the wheels fall off........

[/quote]

But on another post you said that potential investors wouldn''t want to invest in the club because at present its too well run so they''d have to wait for the price to come down.

 

[/quote]

the non footballing side of the club is very well run.  Unfotunatly as far as the football side goes this is not the case.

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[quote user="A load of squit"][quote user="-.-. .-.. ..- -.-. -.-"]

A good realistic post.....but I fear few will acknowledge it as relevant to our present situation. Of course there would be suitors should this club genuinely be offered for sale......but the fact is it isn''t and if DS is waiting for that Norfolk billionaire to arrive on a white charger....we''ll be waiting an eternity.

It''s Delia''s little train set.....and it will go round and round till the wheels fall off........

[/quote]

But on another post you said that potential investors wouldn''t want to invest in the club because at present its too well run so they''d have to wait for the price to come down.

 

[/quote]

I never said that at all. I simply stated that Delia has invested in infrastructure to secure "her" interests....at the expense of the team. Bricks and mortar are always a sound investment...whereas as outlay on players who will depreciate rapidly is not.

I know exactly what I said....as it is straight forward business practice. As a "restaurant" or similar it may well be the way to go....but this is first and foremost a football club.... and should be run as such. Any prospective buyer will always wait for an opportune moment to move in....and that will be when Delia and MWJ decide their investment is slipping.....then the price drops.

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[quote user="ricardo"][quote user="Smudger"][quote user="ricardo"][quote user="The Judge"]

With the financial difficulties Sheff Weds are in (£26m in debt) and they are attracting suitors - surely Norwich with smaller debts, 24,000+ crowds each week, good stadium/training facilities/academy etc etc should be able to attract investors to ?

[/quote]

However, Wednesday are historically a much bigger club in a much bigger city than Norwich. It is no surprise therefore that they are attracting more suitors than us.

Investors are not stupid and obviously see Wednesday as having more potential.

[/quote]

While Sheffield is a City two or 3 times bigger than Norwich...  Surely City have a far larger catchment area with the whole of Norfolk and parts of North Suffolk and Cmabridgeshire to draw upon?

Sheff Weds have a catchment area of aproximately 500,000 to 1 million people which is divided equally between themselves and Sheff Utd, plus several smaller teams such as Rotherham, Chesterfield, Doncaster etc.  Many fans in the Sheffield area probably also follow Leeds (being the biggest club in Yorkshire).

NCFC who have a catchment area of more than 1 million people... with no other league clubs in Norfolk or Cmabridgeshire... the North Suffolk area seems to have an equal division of NCFC fans and scummers also.

What have Sheff Weds ever won???  They have a decaying stadium which is half empty every week and they do not have the ability to pull in any more fans than we do.  They also have larger debts and any buyer would have to invest a much larger amount in Sheff Weds than they would in a modern 21st century club and city like Norwich.

Obviously these facts pretty much shoot your burying your head in the sand arguement down in flames though don''t they???

[/quote]

Sorry Smudger but your grasp of football history appears to be somewhat weak. What have Sheff Wed ever won?

Err......................... 4 times league champions and 3 F.A. Cups

The stadium is considerably larger than ours and was not dilapidated on my last visit a few years ago and they most certainly do have the ability to pull in larger crowds.

I repeat, although it gives me no pleasure to do so, Wednesday are a much bigger club in a much bigger city and it is no surprise investors find it a better proposition than Norwich.

Nuff said.

[/quote]

mmm ok Statto... I was aware that they had probably won something in their long history but apart from a solitary League Cup  win aside it is all so much in the distant past that the major honours that they have won are irrelevant really...  half of those trophies were won prior to the Titanic sinking and the most recent were pre 1930''s.

Hilsborough has not changed for years and needs much work doing on it to bring it in to the 21st century... hence why only a few years ago there was talk of Wednesday trying to get permission of the City Council for a move to the Don Valley Stadium.

I have no doubts that given the correct kind of financial backing and a big enough stadium that Norwich could pull in up to 40,000 supporters on a regular basis.  Over the past 4 years we could of been getting crowds of 30,000 plus easily.

Norwich has a catchment area that is nearly as big as any other club in this country...  Yes Norwich may not be a big city but Norfolk is a big county (evenb though it is sparsley populated)...  As the recent trends have proved the Norfolk public is hungry for a successful team...

Yes I was there at our first European game against Vittesse Arnhem when we only had a crowd of 16,000 plus... but clubs like Newcastle have had crowds of that size or smaller in more recent history yet they fill a stadium of 50,000 plus every week.

Speak to fans from other clubs and see how much potential they seem to think a club like Norwich has... a club that has 25,000 fans turn up week in week out no matter what kind of c**p football is served up to them...

There are plenty of potential investors out there.... Recent takeovers at teams like Derby, Cardiff, Leicester, Blackpool, Peterborough etc have proved that...  The effects that fresh investment has upon clubs like these is also starting to be seen by the critics out there...

The only thing that is holding NCFC back from progressing in to a true top level club that is not struggling to find the funds to survive  each year is the small minded Norwich mentality of this club and this city not being big enough to support a top flight football team....

When all the evidence says that excluding the top few teams in the country (who will always have half of the country who have no connection with that given area following them)... NCFC can be as big as it wants to be...  in order to do so however we need aboardroom with real ambition!!!

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Beelsie,

A couple of points; you say the some of the arguements are backed by innenedo and lack of hard facts. Well that may be the case but let me give you a couple of facts;

1. We will be losing our parachute payments next season and the club has already said it will need to make significant cut backs -we have already seen this starting to happen i.e there is no doubt we are in a better financial position on the playing side after the transfer window than before it with Fleming, Robinson, and the youngtsers out and only Lappin and Fotheringham in.

2. NCFC were unable to pay some of their contractors at the end of January because they didn''t have enough money to pay them.FACT. How do I know that - because I work with a family member of one of those contractors impacted. They only got paid when the club recieved some money they were owed from West Ham for Ashton/Green.

Also you say there are no people out their prepared to invest in Championship clubs - sorry but that is rubbish - look at the 2 examples from this season alone; Derby and Sunderland and how are they doing compared with us ?? - slightly better i think you would have to agree. Past seasons have also seen numerous championship clubs attracting new investors and moving forwards.

So there are plenty of facts to back the arguement we haven''t and won''t have the necessary finances to mount any sort of challenge at the top end of the championship in the coming season without significant new money, and their are people out there prepared to invest in championship clubs IF we were really seeking this investment.

 

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Judge ! I like your article and you bring counter statements in to back it up.  I will still say that you do, as do others, site other clubs who are being approached by backers.  I do agree with that, however that doesn''t show me that there is interest in the market for our NCFC, which I feel you will agree is where our fans interest lies.  The interest would no doubt be there if the club were to be put on the market with its obvious secured debt of around £20million, but perhaps you  have this information:  what will be the lenders conditions of sale to a group or third party reference the debt.  Is there a condition of sale that the secured debt cannot be sold on to a third party, and would it have to be cleared, and then renegotiated or settled by the third party on acquisition.  I had been involved in business for more than 50 years and have yet to see a contract of this magnitude being a simple transaction between interested parties.  I would feel sure that any such contract would have to be renewed afresh, and as it was previously done, I believe with people personally known to the lenders, would a new consortium have the same favourable terms of sale?  This is very important, and what I say is, it is simply because we as fans do not know the niceties or the implications of such a sale, and it is not possible for us, given our scant factual knowledge of the legal and borrowing requirements of such a sale, and to comment realistically on such a subject is IMHO a waste of time.  I believe the only sale that can realistically take place is for a money bags buyer to come forward with £60 million, who has no interest in the above contractual obligations posed above, saying this is my offer for the club I will be the new chairman and will move in my new board and financial controllers.  If in ten years we are successful and are established in the prem then there will be a reassessment of the situation and the club will become a limited company and floated on the stock market and subject to the market forces that exist presently with teams such as Man Utd etc.  I believe also that as you say there are people out there that will be interested in championship clubs, IMO such clubs will be likely to have in place the right negotiating platform on which a buyer can base an offer. IMO also it seems that there is not a great interest in NCFC because of reasons that we as fans are not privy to. I am sorry that this post has been somewhat long winded but due to the seriousness of the subject, I felt it requires serious debate, such as we have entered into, and I thank you for your indulgence. 

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mmm ok Statto... I was aware that they had probably won something in their long history but apart from a solitary League Cup  win aside it is all so much in the distant past that the major honours that they have won are irrelevant really...  half of those trophies were won prior to the Titanic sinking and the most recent were pre 1930''s.

The only thing that is holding NCFC back from progressing in to a true top level club that is not struggling to find the funds to survive  each year is the small minded Norwich mentality of this club and this city not being big enough to support a top flight football team....

When all the evidence says that excluding the top few teams in the country (who will always have half of the country who have no connection with that given area following them)... NCFC can be as big as it wants to be...  in order to do so however we need aboardroom with real ambition!!!

 

Agreed that it was a long time ago Smudge, but thats what the word Historically means. The honours they have won are just as relevant as those won by Norwich City in the same period of time.

I have never said that Norwich can not be a top flight team. My analysis is that we are the equal of a lot of teams with top flight ambition Derby, Ipswich, Sunderland, W.B.A. Coventry, Notts Forest, Southampton etc.

We have no more God given right to be in the top league than they have and no better backing in terms of crowd potential. I would also imagine that their supporters also think that they deserve to be top flight. Unfortunately there are only eighteen teams in the top league and Norwich, along with all those I have mentioned will only achieve that in their best years.

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Blimey Beelsie an extremely comprehensive answer and I bow to your knowledge of business law and debt management.

I take on board all you say and maybe somewhat niave with my views on this - but Derby are £30/£40m in Debt and the investors got around the issues you raised, as did Niall Quinn and his consortium at Sunderland and bearing mind the majority of clubs run with significant amounts of debt these day the same situation would occur whenever ownership of a club takes place

Appreciate we don''t know the finer details of any these clubs debts either - but I guess what i''m saying is that "if there is a will there is a way" and this can come from the buyers or more importantly in my opinion the sellers !

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The whole point is that if Delia and MWJ  "love"  this club as much as they and others claim....why are they so content to see City potentially relegated and wallowing in obscurity before considering handing over the reigns?

It''s all about money....and all about Delia''s business empire....so the argument about valuation only goes to show how "investment" here way over-rides "sentiment". It''s a good job Geoffrey Watling never saw it this way.......

I repeat that I would not invest a penny in this club while the current "dictatorial" situation stands...and only a mug would do so. Millionaires......it goes without saying are not mugs. 

Stalemate and stagnate are the key words at Carrow Road right now.

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Thanks for the response Judge!! As you say in every case where there is a will there is obviously a way. Also when it comes to the market place the seller has to make the preparations for the sale as easy and seamless as possible, when this is so, the property or business for sale becomes easy to market.  This is where Speculation on my part comes in, and it is IMHO that we and the board at NCFC have for sale a very complicated piece of merchandise, hence the lack of interest in NCFC, where Delia and co have made the deal prerequisite on the buyer having due regard to our the fan base etc and will be conditional on that regard, and the part to play she will consider that we have in football terms being exceptable to the buyer.  Secondly if all conditions of sale are removed, and the debt settled before coming on to the market, then IMHO we become a desirable and saleable product.  The buyer or buyers consortium will have to be very rich if we are to stand a hope on the open market especially in the light of the parachute payment no longer there.

Finally although it is not nice for many out there having to watch real-estate taking preference over players, IMO building an attractive show case is the slow and sure way to go, and in three or four years time may be more, when everything is in place regarding room to house 40000 seated  fans, then banks will willingly furnish our debt requirements against the real-estate, for the purchase of players etc.  Unfortunately our introduction into the Prem was premature(excuse the pun) and financially we were not ready for such a move.  Our boards lack of bravery or their financial wisdom prevented us from staying there.  Because they were not prepared to follow Leeds & Ipswich into the hands of the receivers. They IMO, were right, because they can still hold their heads up high and continue to do business in the market place and retain the respect of the financial institutions that frequent such venues.

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[quote user="ricardo"]

 

 

Agreed that it was a long time ago Smudge, but thats what the word Historically means. The honours they have won are just as relevant as those won by Norwich City in the same period of time.

I have never said that Norwich can not be a top flight team. My analysis is that we are the equal of a lot of teams with top flight ambition Derby, Ipswich, Sunderland, W.B.A. Coventry, Notts Forest, Southampton etc.

We have no more God given right to be in the top league than they have and no better backing in terms of crowd potential. I would also imagine that their supporters also think that they deserve to be top flight. Unfortunately there are only eighteen teams in the top league and Norwich, along with all those I have mentioned will only achieve that in their best years.

[/quote]

Hmmm, none of the clubs you list can sell out their grounds,and probably wont until promotion is virtually guaranteed-just look at Sheff.Utd and Reading last season. We,on the other hand, still have more season ticket holders than any of those clubs and can sell out a game 2 weeks in advance (Leeds) despite the team being asset-stripped and performing dreadfully since we were relegated. Ever considered what the demand would be if we were actually any good? Even our board have stated that demand was there for regular 35,000 crowds over the last few years.

The Birmingham clubs are a good example of why this argument of "its a bigger city,so it must be a bigger club" is totally flawed. Wolves,Birmingham and West Brom all struggle to sell 20,000 seats per game yet they are all regarded as much bigger clubs than Norwich because they are in Englands second City. The fact is is that they are all competing-along with Villa and to a lesser extent Coventry and Walsall-for a small slice of a big pie. City,on the other hand, draw support from an area with a population of over 1 million (Norfolk+Waveney area of Suffolk) with very little in the way of competition. I think it is pretty obvious which is the best position to be in.

As Smudger has said the smallest thing about NCFC is the mindset of alot of its supporters-and unfortunately the people currently running the club.

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[quote user="-.-. .-.. ..- -.-. -.-"]

The whole point is that if Delia and MWJ  "love"  this club as much as they and others claim....why are they so content to see City potentially relegated and wallowing in obscurity before considering handing over the reigns?

It''s all about money....and all about Delia''s business empire....so the argument about valuation only goes to show how "investment" here way over-rides "sentiment". It''s a good job Geoffrey Watling never saw it this way.......

I repeat that I would not invest a penny in this club while the current "dictatorial" situation stands...and only a mug would do so. Millionaires......it goes without saying are not mugs. 

Stalemate and stagnate are the key words at Carrow Road right now.

[/quote]

If its all about money why would Delia and MWJ be content to see a relegation that reduces the value of their investment? That arguement seems to be totally illogical.

As to the advisability of investing money in football, I guess you could say that we supporters are all mugs. There is no guarentee that money brings success. There are six or seven teams in this league who have spent a lot of money this season, gambling on promotion but only three will go up.

I just think its far to simplistic to say that if we invest 5 or 6 million in new players we will automatically go up. History is littered with examples of clubs getting out of their depth financially. Whoever the stewards of our club turn out to be I believe their first duty is to ensure we continue to have a viable club for the forseeable future and not just today.

Personally I don''t care who owns the club as long as they make every reasonable attempt to progress. At the moment I would have agree that the present reigeme seem a bit like a rabbit caught in the headlights.

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[quote user="beelsie"]

Thanks for the response Judge!! As you say in every case where there is a will there is obviously a way. Also when it comes to the market place the seller has to make the preparations for the sale as easy and seamless as possible, when this is so, the property or business for sale becomes easy to market.  This is where Speculation on my part comes in, and it is IMHO that we and the board at NCFC have for sale a very complicated piece of merchandise, hence the lack of interest in NCFC, where Delia and co have made the deal prerequisite on the buyer having due regard to our the fan base etc and will be conditional on that regard, and the part to play she will consider that we have in football terms being exceptable to the buyer.  Secondly if all conditions of sale are removed, and the debt settled before coming on to the market, then IMHO we become a desirable and saleable product.  The buyer or buyers consortium will have to be very rich if we are to stand a hope on the open market especially in the light of the parachute payment no longer there.

Finally although it is not nice for many out there having to watch real-estate taking preference over players, IMO building an attractive show case is the slow and sure way to go, and in three or four years time may be more, when everything is in place regarding room to house 40000 seated  fans, then banks will willingly furnish our debt requirements against the real-estate, for the purchase of players etc.  Unfortunately our introduction into the Prem was premature(excuse the pun) and financially we were not ready for such a move.  Our boards lack of bravery or their financial wisdom prevented us from staying there.  Because they were not prepared to follow Leeds & Ipswich into the hands of the receivers. They IMO, were right, because they can still hold their heads up high and continue to do business in the market place and retain the respect of the financial institutions that frequent such venues.

[/quote]

Not true, there is a difference between spending the money leeds and ipswich did and actually spending some money...  We had 3 million to spend in January!!   That money being spent in the summer could gathered the 2 points we needed to stay up.

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the whole Difference between us and the "wens''deh" is that they are perceived by fans, management, and board as a Big club.

our board see us as a little club pottering about always smiling.. thats why people want Wednesday and not us... they see potential in a club that wants to go somewhere...

jas :)

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[quote user="Mr.Carrow"][quote user="ricardo"]

 

 

Agreed that it was a long time ago Smudge, but thats what the word Historically means. The honours they have won are just as relevant as those won by Norwich City in the same period of time.

I have never said that Norwich can not be a top flight team. My analysis is that we are the equal of a lot of teams with top flight ambition Derby, Ipswich, Sunderland, W.B.A. Coventry, Notts Forest, Southampton etc.

We have no more God given right to be in the top league than they have and no better backing in terms of crowd potential. I would also imagine that their supporters also think that they deserve to be top flight. Unfortunately there are only eighteen teams in the top league and Norwich, along with all those I have mentioned will only achieve that in their best years.

[/quote]

Hmmm, none of the clubs you list can sell out their grounds,and probably wont until promotion is virtually guaranteed-just look at Sheff.Utd and Reading last season. We,on the other hand, still have more season ticket holders than any of those clubs and can sell out a game 2 weeks in advance (Leeds) despite the team being asset-stripped and performing dreadfully since we were relegated. Ever considered what the demand would be if we were actually any good? Even our board have stated that demand was there for regular 35,000 crowds over the last few years.

The Birmingham clubs are a good example of why this argument of "its a bigger city,so it must be a bigger club" is totally flawed. Wolves,Birmingham and West Brom all struggle to sell 20,000 seats per game yet they are all regarded as much bigger clubs than Norwich because they are in Englands second City. The fact is is that they are all competing-along with Villa and to a lesser extent Coventry and Walsall-for a small slice of a big pie. City,on the other hand, draw support from an area with a population of over 1 million (Norfolk+Waveney area of Suffolk) with very little in the way of competition. I think it is pretty obvious which is the best position to be in.

As Smudger has said the smallest thing about NCFC is the mindset of alot of its supporters-and unfortunately the people currently running the club.

[/quote]

I am sorry Mr. Carrow but your plea for seniority over the likes of Leeds, Wolves, W.B.A. etc just does not hold water historically. You are talking about clubs with League championships and F.A. Cup wins to their credit. Something Norwich City unfortunately have never achieved. In the light of that, Norwich Citys ability to play to near full houses appears more of a triumph of hope over reality.

We may not like it and we may think we deserve better but the plain fact remains (and history has proved) that we are in a pack of a dozen or so clubs that can only achieve top flight status on a temporary basis. I had hoped that our good run in the eighties and early nineties might change this but as with the likes of Ipswich, we were unable to sustain it.

I am sure you don''t need me to remind you that Ipswich HAVE won a championship an F.A. Cup and a European Trophy and historically their gates have been similar to ours. Every claim you make regarding population and area can be equally applied to them. You could even make the same claim for Plymouth Argyle a city with twice the population of Norwich and a similar rural hinterland.

If it were just a case of mindset we could will it to be different but unfortunately the cold reality is we are a second flight club with top flight pretensions.  It is nothing to be ashamed of and I look forward with pleasure to our next promotion to the big league, as do the supporters of Ipswich, Wolves, Derby and all those other clubs on a similar level to us.

 

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Beelsie - again some fair point mades. I agree with some and could challenge others - but based on what you have stated about the sellers i.e Delia & MWJ, in making the sale conditional, do you agree it makes her statement at the AGM an incredibly meaningless one ?  

Call me a cynic but I for one actually think she was incredibly clever in saying what she did about selling the club should the right investor be found. In that one statement she deflected all the justified criticism she and the current board would have recieved either at the AGM or in the local media afterwards, knowing full well that placing the conditions on the sale she did (and you have eluded to in detail on this thread) that she wouldn''t have to sell up in the near future unless she wants to.

For me, and many others, the worrying thing is - just like the board buried their heads in the sand whilst is was obvious to most that Worthingtons time was up at christmas 2005, it seems they are burying their heads in the sand over the true potential of this club.

My concern is that just like Worthingthon clung on and on until the bitter end once alot of real and significant damage had been done in terms of quality of players, squad size, morale of players, untried young players etc - this board are going to do some thing similiar with the whole club - something that would take a heck of a lot longer to sort out than the playing side (and that may take at least 2 seasons!).

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