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Why oh why 4-5-1???

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Aaaaaargh!

Why did we go back to 4-5-1?    Hux and thorne combined on Tuesday to give us the best combined creative front line performance we have seen in 18 months (the only partnership) with Hux in particular outstanding. Yet in a must win game we revert to a defensive minded 4-5-1.

Now with the right, as chlesea have shown, 4-5-1 can be mightily effective.  However it depends on have a genuine front man who can retain the ball and bring players in to the game and having excellent support from the midfield, readily prepared to get beyond the front guy.

The way we (grant and worthy before him) play it is as a defensive model.   We have the wide guys but their brief is to contain the flanks - far too often today HUx was picking teh ball up 70yrds from goal.   We have the midfielders who could do the bursting through job (Croft, Hux and Etuhu) and get beyond brown but for several reasons none of the did, consistently enough to make the system work anyway.

Then we have Brown.  He is a youngster still learning his trade.  He was not poor today but he was left isolated too often.  Against experienced centre backs he was given little time and was in desperate need of support to allow him time to use the ability he may have.  He received none of that today.

Eventually (5 mins into the second half) we reverted to 4-4-2 despite it being apparent after 10 mins 4-5-1 wasnt working.  This finally gave Brown the support he needed,  gave us breathing space in midfield (as barclayendboy mentioned elsewhere Fozzy in particular benefited) and finally movement and options up front.  HUx had the freedom to move where he wanted but like Henry continued his best work down our left.  What makes it difficult for Leeds was that they couldnt detail one person to mark him as he was over to the right one moment then the left the next.

Please please please PG take a tip and stick to 4-4-2 in future - Hux as a striker will create us enough chances to get the survival points we need.

My first choice team?  Aiming for tomorrow rather than today, I would keep dion on the bench and go

Marshall

Colin     Doc   Shax   Drury

Croft     Fozzy   Safri  Lappin

          Brown     Hux

Subs

Gallacher,  Dublin, MArtin, Hughes, Chadwick

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I think you''ve made a lot of good points, Zippers.

PG said on the radio after the game that he''s not a cautious manager but starting with 1 man upfront at home against the side bottom of the league isn''t very adventurous.

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[quote user="ZippersLeftFoot"]

Aaaaaargh!

Why did we go back to 4-5-1?    Hux and thorne combined on Tuesday to give us the best combined creative front line performance we have seen in 18 months (the only partnership) with Hux in particular outstanding. Yet in a must win game we revert to a defensive minded 4-5-1.

Now with the right, as chlesea have shown, 4-5-1 can be mightily effective.  However it depends on have a genuine front man who can retain the ball and bring players in to the game and having excellent support from the midfield, readily prepared to get beyond the front guy.

The way we (grant and worthy before him) play it is as a defensive model.   We have the wide guys but their brief is to contain the flanks - far too often today HUx was picking teh ball up 70yrds from goal.   We have the midfielders who could do the bursting through job (Croft, Hux and Etuhu) and get beyond brown but for several reasons none of the did, consistently enough to make the system work anyway.

Then we have Brown.  He is a youngster still learning his trade.  He was not poor today but he was left isolated too often.  Against experienced centre backs he was given little time and was in desperate need of support to allow him time to use the ability he may have.  He received none of that today.

Eventually (5 mins into the second half) we reverted to 4-4-2 despite it being apparent after 10 mins 4-5-1 wasnt working.  This finally gave Brown the support he needed,  gave us breathing space in midfield (as barclayendboy mentioned elsewhere Fozzy in particular benefited) and finally movement and options up front.  HUx had the freedom to move where he wanted but like Henry continued his best work down our left.  What makes it difficult for Leeds was that they couldnt detail one person to mark him as he was over to the right one moment then the left the next.

Please please please PG take a tip and stick to 4-4-2 in future - Hux as a striker will create us enough chances to get the survival points we need.

My first choice team?  Aiming for tomorrow rather than today, I would keep dion on the bench and go

Marshall

Colin     Doc   Shax   Drury

Croft     Fozzy   Safri  Lappin

          Brown     Hux

Subs

Gallacher,  Dublin, MArtin, Hughes, Chadwick

[/quote]

 

couldn''t say it any better, i''d have chadwick ahead of croft and dion ahead of doc though

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GJP I heard that comment too. I completely agree Zipper and I look forward to Drury and Lappin on the left with Hucks where he belongs: up front. In the first half he was hemmed in by 3 defenders which is fine if you have a Damien Francis type running into the space.

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I suspect you need to ask Hucks this Q...........He''s a bit of a rougue.... even if instructed to play alongside a target man my impression is that he just cannot help himself.... he just has to drift wide left.So I''d be wary of citicising Grant on this occasion.................

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Only two points to raise here...Dublin on the bench? Did you go to the match today? Obviously not. And Thorne, 1 half of the most creative strike partnership in 18 months? What a joke, against Wolves Thorne''s performance was pathetic, totally ineffective, he was diabolical.442 definitley the way to go, i think with Hucks up front as his crossing was poor today and i cant remember the last time he whipped in a killer cross. He does, however, cause havoc thru the middle and if he doesnt get an opening he''ll win us a free kick. I think Dublin and Huckerby up front would be awesome and if my memory serves me correct I dont think weve seen Dion and Hucks as a front two yet. Saying that id prefer Dublin at the back as we look more solid, especially from set pieces.Brown was average today, Martin seems to be quicker in the head so to speak, Brown takes to long to control the ball and make a decision as to what to do with it, with Martin he seemed to know exactly what he was going to do from his first touch, which i think is the mark of a great player, so for me I think its Brown who has got to earn the right to partner Hucks and it should be Martin and Huckerby to start up front.

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If you heard Grant''s post-match interview, you would have heard him say that it was supposed to be flexible 4-4-2, with Hucks and Croft alternating as the 2nd striker. Apparently when the ball was on the left flank, Croft became the 2nd striker, and on the right, Hucks comes in. Of course, we all saw what happened when the team tried to play through the middle. Neither player came in! Leaving Brown isolated up front. No wonder it looked like such a shambles at times!No matter. Hucks took control, young Martin looked better than Brown, and we should have won by more. By most teams won''t surrender like Leeds. So please keep it simple, Grant!

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[quote user="BarclayMan"]

 What a joke, against Wolves Thorne''s performance was pathetic, totally ineffective, he was diabolical.

 so for me I think its Brown who has got to earn the right to partner Hucks and it should be Martin and Huckerby to start up front.

[/quote]

I don''t think it was that bad, me thinks you''ve already got it in for Thorne (and I won''t deny he''s been fairly rubbish for Norwich) but he did do alright against Wolves. To say he was diabolical is ridiculous.

And then you say Brown has to earn the right to partner Huckers. But not Martin as clearly coming off the bench a couple of times with fresh legs against tired defences has earned him the right to be a first choice striker. Amazing.

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Well obviously I don''t go to games either because I am in agreement with the points made by the original poster.

Did you not think Thorne linked up well with Hux on Tuesday? Thornes problems have been getting fit but when he''s actually played, which is hardly ever, but when he has been played in his proper position he has done ok. Peter Thorne has been a poor signing because he has never been fit and not because he has no ability.

Dion Dublin was a short term signing made because we didn''t manage to sign any forwards in the summer and then lost McKenzie just as the window closed. He has been massive for us and is rightly being tipped as a possible POS. But Dion will never be first choice centreforward or first choice centrehalf and much as I love watching the guy playing for us I have my doubts as to whether he will still be here next season.

Brown was isolated on his own up front for nearly an hour today which severely cut his options down which could be why he seemed to take a long time to lay the ball off although I agree with you that Martin has got something special about him. I''d start Brown and Hux at Luton but Martin has had 40 mins this week which is great to see and he can''t be far away from a start.

 

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[quote user="Pyro Pete"]If you heard Grant''s post-match interview, you would have heard him say that it was supposed to be flexible 4-4-2, with Hucks and Croft alternating as the 2nd striker. Apparently when the ball was on the left flank, Croft became the 2nd striker, and on the right, Hucks comes in.

Of course, we all saw what happened when the team tried to play through the middle. Neither player came in! Leaving Brown isolated up front. No wonder it looked like such a shambles at times!

No matter. Hucks took control, young Martin looked better than Brown, and we should have won by more. By most teams won''t surrender like Leeds. So please keep it simple, Grant!

[/quote]

It was Cloughy who always used to harp on about football being a simple game. PG needs to take note, give each player a position and an understanding of the job they have to do and let them get on with it. Don''t get involved with "alternating" or "rotating" things, keep it simple and play to our strengths - we need a straightforward 4-4-2, a little bit of confidence, some passion injected into the side and we will be fine.

Mark .Y.

 

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To a great extent, the formation was dictated by Drury being out. Lappin had to play left back as there is no one else to do it.

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[quote user="GJP"]

[quote user="BarclayMan"]

 What a joke, against Wolves Thorne''s performance was pathetic, totally ineffective, he was diabolical. so for me I think its Brown who has got to earn the right to partner Hucks and it should be Martin and Huckerby to start up front.

[/quote]

I don''t think it was that bad, me thinks you''ve already got it in for Thorne (and I won''t deny he''s been fairly rubbish for Norwich) but he did do alright against Wolves. To say he was diabolical is ridiculous.

And then you say Brown has to earn the right to partner Huckers. But not Martin as clearly coming off the bench a couple of times with fresh legs against tired defences has earned him the right to be a first choice striker. Amazing.

[/quote]If you thought Thorne did alright against Wolves then you must be easily satisfied. Name me one thing he did that was of any worth to the cause, and i dont mean the occasional header or layoff, as thats the very basics of his job as a striker. He was woefully ineffecitve in front of goal and posed no threat whatsover. Ive not got it in him, he''s just plain and simple not the player he was and just not good enough anymore.Regarding Martin, what I meant was if its a choice between him and Brown to partner Hucks, for me Martin has done more, against Leeds and Wolves he looked sharp and given 90 minutes I think he could make an impact. Brown''s had his chance and not done much with it, so I think its Martins turn. And coming on against tired defences? Your having a laugh now arent ya, there professional athletes, able to perform for 90 mins. I didnt see any tired defenders yesterday or against Wolves, and in fact I do remember a fantastic goal line clearance late in the game against Wolves from a so called ''tired defender''.I never said Martin doesnt have to earn the right to play, just that for me he''s ahead of Brown to start, purely because he''s looked better than him in the last two games. He''s looked sharp, confident and full of self belief, so I believe he has earned the chance to start a game ahead of Brown and be given the chance to show us what he can do over 90 mins.

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[quote user="nutty nigel"]

But Dion will never be first choice centreforward or first choice centrehalf and much as I love watching the guy playing for us I have my doubts as to whether he will still be here next season.

[/quote]Anyone that thinks Dion should never be first choice centre back is clearly misguided, and quite blind. The difference to our defence when Dion is at the back is immense. So given that Shack, Dion and The Doc are all fit, are you saying that youd play Shack and Doc and Dion would be on the bench? If the answer is yes it is laughable, Dion''s a leader and his assurance and leadership are priceless to city.

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I love the way you throw insults around on here!!!!!

As my avatar points out I probably am misguided, but I would suggest that a few other people would do exactly that including the manager. To suggest our defence is stronger by playing Dublin IS laughable. Dublin makes as many mistakes as Shackell or Docherty. I agree we need his assurance and leadership qualities but if we can''t get them from our present players then we seriously need to change some more in the summer. Much as I like Dion, this club will not progress if our future depends on playing a 38 year old centreforward and centreback!

 

 

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[quote user="nutty nigel"]


I love the way you throw insults around on here!!!!!

As my avatar points out I probably am misguided, but I would suggest that a few other people would do exactly that including the manager. To suggest our defence is stronger by playing Dublin IS laughable. Dublin makes as many mistakes as Shackell or Docherty. I agree we need his assurance and leadership qualities but if we can''t get them from our present players then we seriously need to change some more in the summer. Much as I like Dion, this club will not progress if our future depends on playing a 38 year old centreforward and centreback!

[/quote]

lol - you worked out the stats yourself Nige!!!  Our defense IS stronger with Dublin playing FACT.

And yes we have no leadership - we all realise this.  Hopefully Donkerty and his ridiculous salary will be out of the club in the summer.

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I am neither misguided nor blind.   Dublin did not have a great game against Leeds and his gaol and leadership did not  make up for his poor passing - and yes I was at the match.  Having just seen the goal again he stood off Blake too long instead of putting him under pressure. 

Neither was Dion poor, however if his performance had been made by Doc everyone would hav ebeen screaming at him again;  Doc out defended dion yesterday quite comfortably and point such a 9 for his performance are well off the mark. We could have had any three of Dion, Shacks or Doc out there today and the defending would have been the same.  Over more games Dion may better overall (and has comanded aerially better than most) but there is no future in him, no matter how hard we want it.

Liekwise Thorne.  He was not diabolical on Tuesday.  However, and like Brown and Martin today, he never really looked like scoring.  What he did do is lead the line well and brought hux and others into the game.  He was better at that than Brown today, although in Browns defence he was incredibly isolated today and as with Dion I would leave thorne out of the starting 11 in preference to brown or martin so the latter pair gain experience, even though thorne and hux linked better than any other pair this season. 

If you look at my post my first choice team is about what will do us well in the longer term.  Dion is there to give us leadership at the back or up front if needed and that presence in the changing room.  

We have the core of a young side who want to win - give them a chance;  afterall we have been screaming for worthy and now grant to do just that havent we????  

 

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flexible...  what a joke.  I completely agree with the original posters sentiments, I could not beleive we started 4-5-1 after doing so well with 2 up front in the week.

 

You do have to wonder about Grants abilities tactically.  So far he comes across as totally inept in this department.  He does seem to be able to spot a decent buy if Lappin is anything to go by.

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Was this because PG thought that we hasd only one left sided player in Lappin, and remembering how often Drury has been exposed....?

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I would not disagree with most of what Zipper says, but I do disagree with what he says about Dion, there is no doubt we are a more solid defensive unit when he plays and if you look closely at the replay of the Leeds goal there were FOUR Norwich players around the goalscorer, not one of them took the responsibility to close the player down (very similar situation to the Wolves goal). Another issue I have is about PG being accused of being defensive, if you were watching him he kept telling Hucks to get further forward, particularly in the first half. Personally I am yet to be convinced by Brown, for a big guy he does not win many in the air and seems to be knocked off the ball all to easy. And finally Peter Thorne, I thought he was just about average against Wolves, he has no pace, no movement and no end product, I would imagine he will be on his way in the summer to somewhere with good beaches and a decent surf. All of that said I think that there are a lot of green shoots of recovery in evidence, Lappin looks a snip at £75 to £100k, there is surely more to come from Fozzy, Hucks is playing at his best again, Marshall looks a very assured keeper, Dion is back from injusry, Drury will be back from suspension and we may get a couple more players in when the loan transfer window opens.

 

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[quote user="BarclayMan"]

If you thought Thorne did alright against Wolves then you must be easily satisfied. Name me one thing he did that was of any worth to the cause, and i dont mean the occasional header or layoff, as thats the very basics of his job as a striker. He was woefully ineffecitve in front of goal and posed no threat whatsover. Ive not got it in him, he''s just plain and simple not the player he was and just not good enough anymore.

Regarding Martin, what I meant was if its a choice between him and Brown to partner Hucks, for me Martin has done more, against Leeds and Wolves he looked sharp and given 90 minutes I think he could make an impact. Brown''s had his chance and not done much with it, so I think its Martins turn. And coming on against tired defences? Your having a laugh now arent ya, there professional athletes, able to perform for 90 mins. I didnt see any tired defenders yesterday or against Wolves, and in fact I do remember a fantastic goal line clearance late in the game against Wolves from a so called ''tired defender''.

I never said Martin doesnt have to earn the right to play, just that for me he''s ahead of Brown to start, purely because he''s looked better than him in the last two games. He''s looked sharp, confident and full of self belief, so I believe he has earned the chance to start a game ahead of Brown and be given the chance to show us what he can do over 90 mins.


[/quote]

I''m not easily satisfied at all - it''s more a case that I don''t go out of my way to find fault. Peter Thorne did alright against Wolves, he wasn''t great but he certainly wasn''t ''diabolical''. To say his performance was diabolical is an absolute farce.

Now I think you''re being a touch foolish and naive if you don''t think that lots of players legs get a bit tired towards the end of 90 minutes. I dare say if you asked any player, coach, pundit etc etc they''d tell you that people will get tired legs. That''s why Huckerby often comes to life in the second half when he knows people aren''t quite so fresh and he can have a really good run at them.

I think it''d be fairer to judge Chris Brown after he''s had a couple of games with a suitable striker partner alongside him. I doubt Chris Martin would have done a lot had he started as a lone striker yesterday. 

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[quote user="nutty nigel"]

To suggest our defence is stronger by playing Dublin IS laughable. Dublin makes as many mistakes as Shackell or Docherty. I

[/quote]Ha ha...the only laughable thing here is your opinions. To say that Dublin makes no difference to our defence is ridiculous. Look at the past results, when Dublin is there we keep clean sheets or ship one goal at most. Look at the games he wasnt there and there''s 2''s and 3''s conceded all over the place, Stoke away (5) Ipswich away (3), Palace away (3), Plymouth home (3).  He has received man of the match awards every time he plays at the back, with the exception of yesterday, he sent a few passes astray but won everything in the air and was pretty solid again from what I saw. How many shots on goal did Leeds have? 1 wasnt it?If you beleive that Dublin is making no positive difference to the Norwich defence and team as a whole then you must be the only poster on here that does. Take a look around and youll find mostly 99% of posters singing his praises. No, the guys not the future of Norwich City, but he''s a marvel of the present, for sure.

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[quote user="Citizen Journalist Foghorn"][quote user="nutty nigel"]


I love the way you throw insults around on here!!!!!

As my avatar points out I probably am misguided, but I would suggest that a few other people would do exactly that including the manager. To suggest our defence is stronger by playing Dublin IS laughable. Dublin makes as many mistakes as Shackell or Docherty. I agree we need his assurance and leadership qualities but if we can''t get them from our present players then we seriously need to change some more in the summer. Much as I like Dion, this club will not progress if our future depends on playing a 38 year old centreforward and centreback!

[/quote]

lol - you worked out the stats yourself Nige!!!  Our defense IS stronger with Dublin playing FACT.

And yes we have no leadership - we all realise this.  Hopefully Donkerty and his ridiculous salary will be out of the club in the summer.

[/quote]

CJF, I worked the stats out earlier this season and they showed that our defence is stronger when we play our first choice back four of Colin, Doherty, Shackell and Drury. This is still the case now. Our defence looks stronger with Dublin but isn''t really. He gets forgiven his mistakes because he looks the part. Doherty looks awkward and has poor body language hiding the fact that he is quite a good centreback at this level.

I agree that Dublin is a much better leader on the pitch but I stand by what I said, we cannot progress while we are playing a 38 year old centreforward at centreback.

I believe we will see a big improvement in the stats whatever the back four now we have a good ''keeper. It amazes me how posters have constantly picked out mistakes made by Doherty when the majority of mistakes that cost us goals were made by Gallacher. Now if we could get his salary off our books in the summer I would be happy!

Yes we could get Doherty off our books in the summer but we won''t get a replacement cheaply.

 

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Dublin has been a good signing for us, but he is only a stop gap with no future in it for us as a club (other than maybe a coach)  Dion has played far better than he did on Sat and will do so again, and we can call on him when needed,  but he cannot be an integral part of our player plans for the future  -  how can he be at 37?

Thanks for all that responded with reasons why I am wrong,  its only an opinion thing and it doesnt matter to me whether you agree or not, but I enjoy discussing why you think I am wrong, such as SOB has here and many others have in the past;  I may think I have a monopoly on being right and history may support me but its not the case.  Whether I was or not at the game doesnt really make my opinion any more or less valid either way.  However I was.

Its good to have a board focusing on the on pitch activities again though.  

As I am with you on this one Nutty N, does that make me one of the Nutty Boys?

One Step Beyond - nah nah naaaaahh, na na na na na naaaah 

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My opinions maybe laughable but they are my opinions. I don''t mind if 99% of posters disagree with me. It does seem that successive managers have agreed with me though, unless you can find me one occasion this season where Doherty, Dublin and Shackell have all been fit and Dublin has been first choice.

99% of posters ridiculed the signing of Dublin in the first place, I didn''t and have never said he isn''t a marvel at the present. I have always maintained he is a centreforward and that''s where he should play.

Leeds actually had 6 goal attempts yesterday which was the lowest any side have had at our goal all season. If you take this as a measuring stick to pick the team you may be surprised. The stats show:-

Doherty/Shackell 18 games 224 attempts on our goal at an average of 12.44.

Dublin/Shackell 6 games 81 attempts on our goal at an average of 13.5 per game.

Other combinations 6 games 87 attempts on our goal at an average of 14.5 per game.

 

 

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I think you will find that it is only 4-5-1 when we dont have possession, and Hucks and Croft drift back to help the other 3 in the middle, but when we have possession, Hucks and Croft attack and join Brown or whoever the lone striker is to form a 4-3-3 formation.

 

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imo the players heads dropped after leeds scored - there was another display of tactical drift for 10 mins or so, just as like the wolves game, where the players seemed to go through the motions, without creating any threat.  my feeling is  they told  grant and hunter at half-time, they didn''t like 4-5-1. after 2nd half, and 4-4-2 - i think the improved showing has effectively consigned 4-5-1 to the tactical rubbish bin.i don''t think you''ll see it again at carra rd under grant again - he values his job too much.

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[quote user="nutty nigel"]

My opinions maybe laughable but they are my opinions. I don''t mind if 99% of posters disagree with me. It does seem that successive managers have agreed with me though, unless you can find me one occasion this season where Doherty, Dublin and Shackell have all been fit and Dublin has been first choice.

99% of posters ridiculed the signing of Dublin in the first place, I didn''t and have never said he isn''t a marvel at the present. I have always maintained he is a centreforward and that''s where he should play.

Leeds actually had 6 goal attempts yesterday which was the lowest any side have had at our goal all season. If you take this as a measuring stick to pick the team you may be surprised. The stats show:-

Doherty/Shackell 18 games 224 attempts on our goal at an average of 12.44.

Dublin/Shackell 6 games 81 attempts on our goal at an average of 13.5 per game.

Other combinations 6 games 87 attempts on our goal at an average of 14.5 per game.

 

 

[/quote]

What about Goals - the value that counts.  Also Leeds are the worst side in the league. 

 

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[quote user="whoareyou"]To a great extent, the formation was dictated by Drury being out. Lappin had to play left back as there is no one else to do it.[/quote]

I agree. I do believe it was chosen because of this. I feel if drury was able to play, it would push lappin into Left Midfield, forcing Hux to go upfront. Thus creating a 4-4-2

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[quote user="Citizen Journalist Foghorn"][quote user="nutty nigel"]

My opinions maybe laughable but they are my opinions. I don''t mind if 99% of posters disagree with me. It does seem that successive managers have agreed with me though, unless you can find me one occasion this season where Doherty, Dublin and Shackell have all been fit and Dublin has been first choice.

99% of posters ridiculed the signing of Dublin in the first place, I didn''t and have never said he isn''t a marvel at the present. I have always maintained he is a centreforward and that''s where he should play.

Leeds actually had 6 goal attempts yesterday which was the lowest any side have had at our goal all season. If you take this as a measuring stick to pick the team you may be surprised. The stats show:-

Doherty/Shackell 18 games 224 attempts on our goal at an average of 12.44.

Dublin/Shackell 6 games 81 attempts on our goal at an average of 13.5 per game.

Other combinations 6 games 87 attempts on our goal at an average of 14.5 per game.

 

 

[/quote]

What about Goals - the value that counts.  Also Leeds are the worst side in the league. 

 

[/quote]

Whatabout goals CJF?

I was replying to the poster who was using attempts on our goal as a measuring stick.

Anyway, I have long decided that using goals conceded wouldn''t be fair on any defence that played in front of probably the worst regular goalkeeper I have ever seen play for Norwich.

For the rest of the season I am going to wait and see. We have a good goalkeeper and have strengthened the midfield. There is no hiding place for the back four now.

 

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