Grant- is he any better than Worthington?

[silver fox 0]

Now that I have had time to calm down after today''s match I ask the question is Grant any better than Worthington?  Twice now he has changed a back four that hasn''t conceded a goal and we have lost quite badly as a result.  Has he ever heard of the old saying '' if it isn''t broken don''t change it''.  A high number of supporters can see that Doherty is limited in ability and is a liability at the back, but Grant seems to want to play him .

Robinson and Hughes are fairly poor midfielders, but Grant seems to want to play them.

What we needed in midfield today was Safri to break their play down, but he wasn''t even on the bench.

Worthington used to bring in Henderson and now Grant brings in Eagle.

Magilton was prepared to stick by his youngsters, we only had one on the bench.

Grant prefers to put Thorne and McVeigh on the bench as opposed to Ryan Jarvis and Spillane.

I know it is still early days for Grant, but if he asked most supporters they would tell him that Doherty, Robinson, Hughes and Thorne need to be shipped out in the Jan sales.

I was looking for passion and commitment today in a fixture I thought we would win, but I was badly let down by the managers team selection.

[sussexcanary 0]

Only time will tell.  I think we need to consider that he has inherited a very poor side with a losing mentality away from home.  I must say though don''t like this public putting down of players that should be done within the confines of the dressing room or at Colney.  The first thing he needs to do is wead out the rubbish and that will take time as it cannot be done overnight.  We need some young fresh talent in midfield to supersede the dross that Robinson and Hughes provide on a weekly basis.

[Norphilwich 0]

Until he gets his own players in I will not be judging. The players just don''t seem to be up for all the games. Couple of games and you think yeah we could get somewhere this year, but when they turn up and play like that. You feel their is no hope for the team and that we will just finih mid-way. Roll on Januray.

[Alex Harvey-Jones 0]

I don''t understand why Thorne was on the bench with Dublin. Thorne is so ineffectual when he plays that it isn''t worth it. Ryan Jarvis has much more to offer yet doesn''t seem to get a look in. Spillane looked very good last season when he played and is surely worth a try.

Grant is continuing to play Hughes and Robinson because he doesn''t have that many other options. Safri was unwell apparently and he has been playing poorly recently. It is very much the case of having to work with another managers squad and having little resource to work with. Hopefully he will be given the funds and backing to really freshen things up in january!

Grant is very different to Worthington. He is new to management and will therefore make many mistakes. He seems willing to accept his mistakes which is encouraging and will learn with experience. We need to give him at least two seasons and some decent transfer funds before we can even begin to compare him with Worthy!

[ca 1]

[quote user="silver fox"]

Robinson and Hughes are fairly poor midfielders, but Grant seems to want to play them.

 

[/quote]

 

But with Safri unwell who would you have played instead of Robinson and Hughes?

 

 

[Tom NCFC 0]

Give him time Silver Fox, Worthy had around 10-12 transfer windows to work in, Grant hasn''t ever had one!

You can''t expect great things from worthy''s crap

[nutty nigel 7,531]

[quote user="cityangel"][quote user="silver fox"]

Robinson and Hughes are fairly poor midfielders, but Grant seems to want to play them.

 

[/quote]

 

But with Safri unwell who would you have played instead of Robinson and Hughes?

 

 

[/quote]

As I understand it Safri was already benched before he came down with flu.

It is a fact that with the players he has inherited Grant makes the same calls as Worthy.

 

[Saint Canary 0]

[quote user="nutty nigel"][quote user="cityangel"][quote user="silver fox"]

Robinson and Hughes are fairly poor midfielders, but Grant seems to want to play them.

 

[/quote]

 

But with Safri unwell who would you have played instead of Robinson and Hughes?

 

 

[/quote]

As I understand it Safri was already benched before he came down with flu.

It is a fact that with the players he has inherited Grant makes the same calls as Worthy.

 

[/quote]

What would you do differently Nutty?  Not having a go, just asking because when I look at the team and then the squad I can''t see many (viable) options to what ends up as our first 11

Defence.  There is no competition for Drury.  The only alternatives to Colin are the aging Fleming or MLJ who is struggling to compete in the reserve team.  Shackell and the Doc have competition but do they have any realistic threat to their place.  Dublin and Fleming cannot play week in, week out and the other options are relatively untested.  Considering Grant is brief is supposed to be promotion this season, who would risk the untested option.

In midfield we have four central players vying for 4 places.  Safri has been very below par all year.  Etuhu is good on and Hughes and Robinson are poor in general but again the only option are untested players.  Huckerby picks himself when fit and for once in many, many years we appear to have two decent wide right players, who are now injured!!!

Up front I see no realistic partner for Earnie let alone backup if he is injured unless Hux gets a run up there.  Thorne is simply not good enough.  Dublin can’t do it for the same reason he can’t be picked as a regular in defence.  Jarvis seems to believe his own hype and is not prepared to work and McVeigh is highly inconsistent.

I just don’t see that PG has many choices to make. 

 

[Time to go Delia 0]

We are still playing the same formation as Worthy used , there is still a lack of youth being used so no change there , and our one outfield signing was a summer target of Worthy . Does make you wonder how much input Hunter and Livermore are having .

[First Wizard 0]

Hard to say. If possible, you don''t change a winning team, although playing  Chadders was a RIGHT move imho. I think Grant got it wrong when Donkey Doc was picked, but I will give PG time, for now.

But not for much longer mind!.

[nutty nigel 7,531]

Saint

I wouldn''t do much different but that wasn''t the point I was trying to make.. the point I was making was that with the squad of players that we have at the club Grant makes the same calls as Worthington did. However, they are not the calls the fans want. After months of griping about Thorne being in front of Ryan Jarvis the fans watch Grant give Jarvis a look and then watch him select Thorne in front of him. After months of complaining that Hughes is the worst player ever to wear the shirt and should be sacked or at least never play for us again suddenly Peter Grant is selecting him in front of fans favourite Safri. It seems Robinson, a player who the fans hate nearly as much as Hughes is als in front of Safri in the new managers thinking. Another fans favourite, Paul McVeigh, is back out in the cold unable to get a first team start just like when Worthington was in charge. The much criticised zonal marking system remains, as far as I can see with the same players in the same zones. It will be interesting to see what changes in personnel Grant tries to make in January.

 

 

[silver fox 0]

[quote user="cityangel"][quote user="silver fox"]

Robinson and Hughes are fairly poor midfielders, but Grant seems to want to play them.

 

[/quote]

 

But with Safri unwell who would you have played instead of Robinson and Hughes?

 

 

[/quote] Spillane or Rossi Jarvis as both would have contributed more than we saw from our experienced pros.

[Citizen Journalist Foghorn 0]

The new manager sees in training exactly what the old one did...  Fact is these players just don''t perform on matchday.  I can barely count the number of good performances from some of these players on one hand.

As for Grant, so far his decision making has been poor.  There have been no changes since worthy, just a bit more grit in a couple of games and a lot more luck giving everybody a bit of false hope.  Just like last season when Worthington would have a good run.  The team he built inevitably let everybody down by following it up with the standard no-shows.  talking of no-shows thats 2 already under Granty.. 

Hughes is back in, Hughes is still poor...  he still contributes nothing. Granty better get his act together and consider some other options fast, cos I don''t even see any on the bench.

As you say what has changed??  Nothing thats why we are 12th. same players, just a honeymoon period for the manager.

Worst case scenario - the board have just hired another worthy, except one whom continually slags off his players.

Take McVeigh - yes he aint mr 100%.  But he can create a goal and pass a football, unlike messers Robinson and Hughes.  McVeigh SHOULD have been brought on sunday - he could have created a goal.

You may say he may not have given 100%, well if that was Robinson Etuhu and co giving there percentage i''m sure McVeigh could have at least matched them, with a great deal more creativity.

[0ridgemanddMMyyyy0Falseen-USTrue 0]

At least he said we were awful didn''t hide behind work ethic and effort. I wonder if he has hit the nail on the head when he says it is their mental attitude only time will tell.

[David4567 0]

This isn''t a dig at Grant but NO he''s not better than Worthy, if anything Worthy was better, just he lost his way towards the end and the club needed to make a change. With Grant in charge we will never reach the hights of the Worthy era.

[nutty nigel 7,531]

[quote user="Citizen Journalist Foghorn"]

The new manager sees in training exactly what the old one did...  Fact is these players just don''t perform on matchday.  I can barely count the number of good performances from some of these players on one hand.

As for Grant, so far his decision making has been poor.  There have been no changes since worthy, just a bit more grit in a couple of games and a lot more luck giving everybody a bit of false hope.  Just like last season when Worthington would have a good run.  The team he built inevitably let everybody down by following it up with the standard no-shows.  talking of no-shows thats 2 already under Granty.. 

Hughes is back in, Hughes is still poor...  he still contributes nothing. Granty better get his act together and consider some other options fast, cos I don''t even see any on the bench.

As you say what has changed??  Nothing thats why we are 12th. same players, just a honeymoon period for the manager.

Worst case scenario - the board have just hired another worthy, except one whom continually slags off his players.

Take McVeigh - yes he aint mr 100%.  But he can create a goal and pass a football, unlike messers Robinson and Hughes.  McVeigh SHOULD have been brought on sunday - he could have created a goal.

You may say he may not have given 100%, well if that was Robinson Etuhu and co giving there percentage i''m sure McVeigh could have at least matched them, with a great deal more creativity.

[/quote]

CJF, this is probably the fairest post I have ever seen you write on here. All credit to you for sticking by what you have already said. So many other fans used McVeigh as a weapon agaist Worthington and then turned on him for being lazy when he got the same treatment from Grant. I actually agree with you that McVeigh should have been brought on on Sunday because he could have created a goal. McVeigh has the creativity that we don''t have in the side from anyone else.

I also agree that these players must perform better in training than they do in matches for Grant to come to the same conclusions as Worthington.

Now can I ask you, as one of the fiercest critics of Worthington and the players he bought, how do you explain Thorne on the bench in front of Jarvis on Sunday?

 

[Citizen Journalist Foghorn 0]

[quote user="nutty nigel"]

CJF, this is probably the fairest post I have ever seen you write on here. All credit to you for sticking by what you have already said. So many other fans used McVeigh as a weapon agaist Worthington and then turned on him for being lazy when he got the same treatment from Grant. I actually agree with you that McVeigh should have been brought on on Sunday because he could have created a goal. McVeigh has the creativity that we don''t have in the side from anyone else.

I also agree that these players must perform better in training than they do in matches for Grant to come to the same conclusions as Worthington.

Now can I ask you, as one of the fiercest critics of Worthington and the players he bought, how do you explain Thorne on the bench in front of Jarvis on Sunday?

[/quote]

Just a quick point I have only been critical towards worthy since november last year, looking back the errors in the premiership were there, but at the time I was willing to give worthy the benefit of the doubt over every decision.  He was our manager and got us to the prem.  Unfortunatly, due to the worthy situation many people now, including me, can''t but help analyse every decision.

As for Grant - first impressions - he is a work rate manager just like Worthington.  Can he inspire??  Hmmm  time will tell, but at the moment I am leaning more towards alienating the players.  Will he make good signings - too early to judge.

As for McVeigh - we had an opportunity to get one of our more creative players back in the fold playing - If he played reguarly no doubt he would improve his fitness and get back in the fold - look at Angel at Villa, back to his best and enjoying his football. Sunday McVeigh should have got some time on the pitch, hell he got an assist not 2 games ago.

As for Thorne - I have been wondering about this same point.  getting dumped on at portman road and he doesnt get a game even tho we are doing nothing??  Maybe Jarvis shows nothing in training? he has barely played for norwich EVER how many appearances can you remember?  has he ever had 2 games in a row?

As for Spillane, Rossi Jarvis and co - maybe they just arent very good?  Spillane looked OK when he played, surely they can''t have played any worse than Hughes Etuhu and Robinson on Saturday?  They were dreadful

[Delias Buns 0]

One answer to this very easy question: OF COURSE HE IS!!!

Can any of you honestly have seen Worthington beating B''ham and West Brom away and see him beat Cardiff? Of course not, the team had no faith when he was at the helm. The difference is, Granty has passion! He has the belief of the players! The players want to do well for him! Its been a tough past month, and any of you who think Worthington could have got the results that Grant has need your heads fixing, hes a new manager who has a lot to work with, in January he''ll make some good moves Im sure, and i think he can get us in the play offs this year.

I remember seeing similar posts after the Stoke game, Ive only recently voiced my opinions on these boards but read the posts for a couple of years now, and i wish people would have an opinion and stick to it! Stop changing your opinions on the boss when he loses the odd game!

[Whats a right winger 0]

Just how many managers would we have to have before you would agree that the professional opinion of certain players is exactly the same. Granty came in, put Jarv in the side against Port Vale, actually made him play in a couple of reserve games(Never seemed to play those under Worthy) and watched him. He saw what anyone who isn''t blinded by the hype of that Liverpool goal can see. No pace, no aggression, can''t head the ball & doesn''t get in where it hurts.

[Saint Canary 0]

I agree with CJF and Nutty about McVeigh.  He should be getting more time on the pitch at the moment not just because he has always been one of my favourite players but because he is the best footballer at the club.  McVeigh''s main problem though is himself and I find myself both loving and hating him at the same time.  We see some wonderful football from him and clever play that no one else in our squad is capable of but then we see displays like Southend away and it''s easy to understand why he gets overlooked.  It had nothing to do with effort etc at Southend, it was the showboating that made him end up being a liability that was the problem.

I think has done OK, is he better than Worthy?  Time will tell.  I do think people need to take a step back and look at why they are jumping on him a bit.  I think it''s more to do with what we convinced ourselves would happen rather than what is happening.  I am sure we all had hopes of a new manager giving players like McVeigh, Jarvis and the other youngsters a run in the team and blocking out the likes of Hughes and Thorne.  I think the simple truth is though that the youngsters are simply not ready or good enough and that McVeigh and Jarvis need to pull their finger out.  They were given a clean slate with a new man and neither of them have done nothing to endear themselves to PG.

A question for CJF.  Considering you were critical of Worthington for not being honest in post match interviews, I''m suprised you have suggested PG will alienate players, do you not prefer PG''s honesty to Worthy''s denial?  Let''s face it, if any player can be alienated becuase someone told them the truth, then maybe they should quit football?

[mbncfc 1]

[quote user="Saint Canary"]

I think has done OK, is he better than Worthy?  Time will tell.  I do think people need to take a step back and look at why they are jumping on him a bit.  I think it''s more to do with what we convinced ourselves would happen rather than what is happening.

[/quote]

This, along with the rest of your post SC is excellent. Some great points.

My opinion? You can''t possibly answer the question yet. Worthy won 5 games on the trot, and then lost five games on the trot, both in the first November-May he took charge, and with the flexibility of cancelling contracts and bringing players in.

It is only natural to judge optimistically after a good result, or pessimistically after a bad. Of course, Sunday hurt a lot. We all knew that this season would have to involve some rebuilding after changing manager. Anything achievement-wise would be a bonus. As for where the Board fits into that, I think we have plenty of threads covering that already...

[Unlucky Fried Kitten 0]

There is no way we can make a judgement on Peter Grant''s ability as the manager of this football club after so few games in charge. It''s simply unfair and unreasonable to do so. I think Worthy has left him with an unholy mess to sort out, and it could take two or more transfer windows before we start to see real progress in performances and results. Having said that, we have to hope he has some kind of transfer budget to work with (if not, why not??) and that he brings in the right players of course, and also that he can ship out those who are surplus to requirements. Not at all easy!

[nutty nigel 7,531]

Saint

I agree entirely that us fans convince ourselves about what''s going to happen and then get frustrated and/or disappointed because it doesn''t turn out that way. We all think we are knowledgable about football, we can spot a good player, we can tell if a player is being lazy, we know better than all the referees we see at Carrow Road or on our travels and yet time and time again things happen to dispute this.

Andy Hughes : Is he absolutely useless? If so why does Grant play him in front of paul McVeigh? Grant didn''t sign him.

Carl Robinson : If he is as bad as we say then how has he played so many games at this level and why is he an automatic choice for his country? Worthington, Grant and Toshack must know less about players than us obviously.

Ryan Jarvis : Are Worthy and Granty both blind to the fact he is good enough to be starting for us or could us fans be wrong?

Gary Doherty : Does he really foul players all the time and we are just lucky that the referees don''t see what we see?

Of course we shouldn''t be judging Grant on what he does with Worthy''s players, his test will be when he brings in some of his own. However, his selections put huge question marks over the fans judgements!

 

[Citizen Journalist Foghorn 0]

[quote user="nutty nigel"]

Andy Hughes : Is he absolutely useless? If so why does Grant play him in front of paul McVeigh? Grant didn''t sign him.

[/quote]

Yes.  I have watched him play innumerable times and would always rather have Gary "Top of Division 1 and still doing a job" Holt in my team every time.

[quote user="nutty nigel"]

Carl Robinson : If he is as bad as we say then how has he played so many games at this level and why is he an automatic choice for his country? Worthington, Grant and Toshack must know less about players than us obviously.

[/quote]

No idea - he never does anything... 

[quote user="nutty nigel"]

Ryan Jarvis : Are Worthy and Granty both blind to the fact he is good enough to be starting for us or could us fans be wrong?

[/quote]

maybe he is rubbish - most fans don''t know cos they have never seen him play.

[quote user="nutty nigel"]

Gary Doherty : Does he really foul players all the time and we are just lucky that the referees don''t see what we see?

[/quote]

We concede loads of goals - the doc is poor in the air and not strong enough, he is no organiser or leader.  Good at last ditch tackles though.

[quote user="nutty nigel"]

Of course we shouldn''t be judging Grant on what he does with Worthy''s players, his test will be when he brings in some of his own. However, his selections put huge question marks over the fans judgements!

[/quote]

no abysmal results show the fans have been right - unless you consider 12th a good showing, maybe you do - you do have a bit of waghorn about you?? Surely this proves how good these players are? or is it just Huckerby, Croft creating and 3.5 million pound Ernys goals?  Don''t forget we have a 3.5 million pound striker in this division.

And remember - we have conceded 30 goals - very poor so far and on for being a worse tally than last year.  We are on for 64 points at the currrent rate - that is not play-off form - and we arent playing like play-off contenders

[Cluck 0]

I didn''t like the cynical ''good to be home'' spin....or the ''cometh the hour cometh the man'' war cry......but he is here now and doing as well as anyone could given the circumstances.

He picked up Chadwick, who I think will be a cracking buy long term.......so maybe he has a good eye for sleeping talent. It is early doors.....so in no way can he be blamed for anything yet. There have been jibes about selection issues which is fair enough....but given the shower of s**t to choose from......who could possibly expect miracles?

[nutty nigel 7,531]

CJF

I would prefer Gary Holt to any of our present midfield but I have always been a Gary Holt fan. Still doesn''t explain why Grant prefered Hughes to McVeigh though.

If Robinson "never does anything" then I am amazed 3 different managers have played himat every opportunity for the whole of this season.

If most fans have never seen Ryan Jarvis play then most fans don''t go to games.

We concede lost of goals but not so many when Doherty plays. It''s probably 14 in 12 now. You used to be good at stats [8-|] I agree entirely with your organiser/leadership comments.

I see you still quote stats when it suits you but under grant we are 13 points from 7 which over a season would bring in 85 points. We have concede 9 in 7 which would be on for being 59 over a season under Grant. (Which is still too many but slightly better than last season)

I''ve been called loads of things on here, a bit like Waggy is a new one [:D]

 

[nutty nigel 7,531]

[quote user="cluckaduck"].

He picked up Chadwick, who I think will be a cracking buy long term.......so maybe he has a good eye for sleeping talent. [/quote]

Surely it was Chadwick who picked up Norwich?

 

[Mook 0]

[quote user="nutty nigel"][quote user="cluckaduck"].

He picked up Chadwick, who I think will be a cracking buy long term.......so maybe he has a good eye for sleeping talent. [/quote]

Surely it was Chadwick who picked up Norwich?

 

[/quote]

I''m pretty sure Worthington agreed a deal with Chadders in the summer.

Ooops, sorry I forgot, Worthington didn''t know what he was doing anyway. He probably thought it was former Everton striker Nick Chadwick, and was going to play him as a left-back...

[Cluck 0]

[quote user="Mook"][quote user="nutty nigel"][quote user="cluckaduck"].

He picked up Chadwick, who I think will be a cracking buy long term.......so maybe he has a good eye for sleeping talent. [/quote]

Surely it was Chadwick who picked up Norwich?

 

[/quote]

I''m pretty sure Worthington agreed a deal with Chadders in the summer.

Ooops, sorry I forgot, Worthington didn''t know what he was doing anyway. He probably thought it was former Everton striker Nick Chadwick, and was going to play him as a left-back...

[/quote]

Blimey....it''s like a Bond movie with all of this intrigue! Whatever we all think of Worthington now....he did do a few things right....and under DS and Co that in itself is a quite remarkable achievement! If it was NW....then he did well!.............[Y]

[nutty nigel 7,531]

[quote user="cluckaduck"][quote user="Mook"][quote user="nutty nigel"][quote user="cluckaduck"].

He picked up Chadwick, who I think will be a cracking buy long term.......so maybe he has a good eye for sleeping talent. [/quote]

Surely it was Chadwick who picked up Norwich?

 

[/quote]

I''m pretty sure Worthington agreed a deal with Chadders in the summer.

Ooops, sorry I forgot, Worthington didn''t know what he was doing anyway. He probably thought it was former Everton striker Nick Chadwick, and was going to play him as a left-back...

[/quote]

Blimey....it''s like a Bond movie with all of this intrigue! Whatever we all think of Worthington now....he did do a few things right....and under DS and Co that in itself is a quite remarkable achievement! If it was NW....then he did well!.............[Y]

[/quote]

Not wanting to take any credit away from Granty or Worthy I think it was probably Chadwick or his agent who contacted Norwich on both occasions and both managers could see he would be a good addition to our squad.

Of course I could be wrong..... [;)]