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Citizen Journalist Foghorn

The impact of the protests?

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[quote user="rainbow"]thanks rankin for reminding me once more why i should avoid this website. please, please, do me a big favour and keep your drivel exclusivley on this site. like i said before you are deluded if you think that you have a iota of influence on decisions that are made in the boardroom, or maybe its me thats deluded and it was you and your fellow worthy outers that were responsible for signing lee croft? nah i think not[/quote]

Where did I say a lot, I don''t think any of the above decisions count as a lot of influence, but I think the protests have had an effect.  Yes hopefully Lee Croft will be a good signing, It has taken 2 years to sign a right winger and hopefully he will come good.  I like the way you take offence from my posting,  when many others choose to either agree or disagree and argue the point respectively.

So please avoid this website all you like, but I will still be posting my drivel on all the sites I like to visit.

And just as much as we didnt sign croft whom hopefully will be decent, we didnt sign the awful Andy Hooves, Jurgen colin without ever seeing him play!!  and the worst loanee we have had since Trevor Benjamin.

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[quote user="rainbow"]thanks rankin for reminding me once more why i should avoid this website. please, please, do me a big favour and keep your drivel exclusivley on this site. like i said before you are deluded if you think that you have a iota of influence on decisions that are made in the boardroom, or maybe its me thats deluded and it was you and your fellow worthy outers that were responsible for signing lee croft? nah i think not[/quote]

Now come on Rainbow, surely you realise by now that the only way we will become a top flight football club is to moan at every opportunity, boo the opposition and generally badmouth our club to all and sundry.  You are way off the mark if you think football is about getting behind the team, being optimistic and actually enjoying supporting the club. Some people, eh?  

Worthington''s Green and Yellow Army....

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[quote user="Dicky"]

Worthington''s Green and Yellow Army....

[/quote]

long time since I have heard a chorus of that.....    apparantly 5 people in the upper river end sang it during our poor defeat at home to Wolves...

What''s the betting the appalliing Andy Hooves starts against Leeds....  You never know, he may even score, guaranteeing him a game all season.

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CJF - it seems you have let yourself down after such a reasoned and well balanced initial question and argument.

You question someone else who disagrees with you because you don''t BELIEVE that these things would have happened had it not been for the protests. I think that you are just as naive as those that feel they would have happened anyway.

To be honest I think some of the decisions were concreated by the protests - the board may have had plans already but the protests just confirmed them and backed them up - as has already been said it doesnt take a football genius like "Big Ron" to see that the football wasnt pretty last season.

However I think you overstep the mark when you suggest that Worthy has given five youngsters contracts just to get the heat of the protests off his back. For a start do you think that he is dissolousioned enough to think that if we go on a loosing streak like last season having four youngsters starting or not will make an iota of a difference? You see it is foolish to think that it was done to please the 500 or so protestors.

Yes there were more people unhappy with the football but as they did not protest why call them protestors? I am sure that most fans like me were unhappy with the outcome of last season - I should point out that I know a few Palace fans and let me tell you they are just as dissapointed as we are especially considering that they had held onto most of their stars. The point that you are missing old chap is that your opinion can not be proven to be correct without actual evidence from the people that make the decisions. And considering there has been no one person to step forward to represent the protestors I think it will be difficult to ever get those answers for you.

As for McVeigh - as I have said in a previous post, coincidence no. If you want alien abductions or people walking on water you are looking in the wrong place. Worthington said should McVeigh play well this season and prove his ability and desire to stay he would get a new contract which he did. Couple that with the fact that we were still struggling to play somebody down the right hand side and McVeigh can at least provide back up there then there is more than simple "coincidence" behind it. Where is your evidence to suggest that it was going to be left untill the end of the season?

To add to that how do you know that a couple of other clubs had had a sniff around and rather than wait to see if he took their bait he offered a new contract? You see there are so many factors that believing that a decision like that has just one factor behind it is farcicle. What you suggest is that out of a squad of 25 players 6 were given a contract just to keep the fans happy!

If that were true then why hasnt there been another contract signed and extended? I mean to be honest McVeigh wouldnt bother me going as much as Huckerby who only has a year left on his contract. If the fans would celebrate anything wouldnt it be him signing on for at least another season?

As for the youngsters that you are so eager to obviously dissmiss as not being worth their contracts - go speak to the accademy staff. Williams who some people have suggested as a possible successor to Worthington. I don''t think it is simply down to Worthington. And if it was simply down to him do you really think that he would give five youngsters contracts on the back of his comments at the end of last season? The very comments that you yourself got upset with because you thought that he suggested that you were not a true fan - or at least so you thought.

Sometimes to be in touch with reality you have to be able to accept that there are more shades to life than just black and white. There are just as many believable opinions that can be weighed against your own which suggests that the truth is more likely to lie inbetween.

For example - you suggest that Worthington has instructed Colin to hoof the ball upfield as people behind the dugout can verify. Firstly are you one of these people? If not perhaps you would be so kind as to point one out who can verify this. Seccondly I am sure he has said it once or twice - having been a manager of a team last season I said it about once or twice a game when under pressure from the opponent and I wanted the ball played far upfield down the flanks to give the team time to re-shape or as some would say re-dress the lines.

You see saying things like that don''t actually hold any weight. If Worthington said it every time we got the ball then I would be worried but I know that he doesnt and I also know that when he says he wants the team to pass the ball and that is what they have been told that he hasnt said that just to make him look good on TV for example.

Now we can go about this like a bunch of paranoid Witch Hunters but I suggest that people try not to use aggressive language and maybe we can all come to some sort of agreement on things because one thing for sure is that should some of these views be obvious at the beggining of the season I don''t think next season will bode well under Worthington or anyone else who takes the job on.

 

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[quote user="Rudolph Hucker"]Dicky, Why are you always so negative towards most of your fellow posters?[/quote]

Ah, that was a joke!  C''mon, keep up Rudolph. 

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ok rankin lets see just how much of an influence that you and your pals have on our board of directors and NW. If we sign chis sutton within the next 48 hrs i will be converted to your little club, if you don''t manage this easy quest (sutton has said he wants to play for us and has moved back to norfolk) then you concede that you worthy outers have had absolutly no influence over any decisions the club has made whatsoever. put up or shut up

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[quote user="Rudolph Hucker"]Dicky, Why are you always so negative towards most of your fellow posters?[/quote]

Thats what most KTF do.

They wont attack the manager so "obviously" everything that goes wrong should be blamed on the fans.

 

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chicken your post about rankin was spot on, i just wish that i could be arsed to give such a balanced opinion as you did!

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CJF !! I won''t paste your remarks once again it has already become boring.  Thanks for your explanation regarding your use of veiled expletives.  I had realised how and why, if I might venture a reason of my own.  I would direct your attempt in print, to explore your description of Worthy in relationship to his attempts at the game of management and his inept gestures and verbal remonstrations towards some of our players.   I won''t use your method or description of the man, but I would happily equate your use of language to your description of him in print,etc.  Is it possible that you may be trying to emulate him.  I might say that, its also refreshing to know (and expected) that you don''t give a monkees about the forces, or I suppose the lives given by them to enable the younger generation to be free of what might have been oppression under the Nazi heel.  Yes!! and you have the nerve to call Worthy ignorant and appoint yourself as a spokesman for the Worthy out movement.  With someone as inept as you leading the cause iv''e no doubt that it deserves to fail.  Even if it does''nt.

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great post beelsie, its good to know that i am not on my lonesome in dissin all this freekin negativity from the self destuctive worthyout movement. maybe i will stay around here foe a while :-)

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[quote user="USAcanary"]

If Sutton only scored 10 goals in a season but Earnie ended up with 30 because of chances created.

[/quote]Hahah! If Sutton scored 10 goals in a season, I''d run naked through Norwich Cathedral shouting "There IS a God!!!"Ain''t gonna happen though.

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Chicken and Rainbow both good reasoned posts, good that you are on board ship!!!!

As regards CJF, I wish I had replied in the same vein as did Chicken. I could not believe he could have been serious.

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Chicken,

No offence but your posts are so long I never read them.

Is there any chance of a precis of the main points at the end of them, perhaps in a bolder print or proceeded by: In Summary?

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[quote user="beelsie"]

Chicken and Rainbow both good reasoned posts, good that you are on board ship!!!!

As regards CJF, I wish I had replied in the same vein as did Chicken. I could not believe he could have been serious.

[/quote]

I will say it again the only 2 youngsters whom have been given a go are Shackell belatedly and Rob Green (cos Chrichton was utter cack).  So why are 5 now worthy of a contract??  Mcveigh''s contract WAS extended at that time due to the protests, and the board are NOT willing to pay over the odds anymore  - whereas a few years ago if he wanted to come we would have forked out 850,000 for Alan Lee.....

Any way  crisis! what crisis........

Chicken Out!!! deluding himself, Beelsie obeying orders....

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And I thought the moderators had cut out all this bitching and name calling.

Within this thread, all the old site problems are still there.

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[quote user="1st Wizard"]

And I thought the moderators had cut out all this bitching and name calling.

Within this thread, all the old site problems are still there.

[/quote]

this site suffers because it is the only city message board with more than 2 regular posters whom are KTFers.  Therefore intense debate often turns to a bit of namecalling!!

You write something to rile them as I tried to do - (god forbid, the protests may have had some influence on what has been going on at the football club) and they all go ape.

Just like their refusal to beleive the chanting of HOOF every time the ball was launched forwards may have got the players to play it on the deck!!  It was just by chance in that game, after the hoof chanting we played it on the deck for the first time alll season!!  lol

I don''t see any problems on this site at all...this site most mirrors fans actual views at the moment, and the situation of the fans in the football club. Those that support the manager  and those that think he is limited overrated, and so as not to hurt the many of you whom are offended by swears, a plonker.

Good work Moderators, for letting the debates and arguments continue.

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The mistake that Chicken, Dicky, Ralph Trite and their ilk make is that they think that the criticism of NW is limited to the protests etc. I truly believe that the club received a shed load of letters with the season ticket renewals, from people that did not attend any form of protest, post on any message boards, write to the local press etc, but were very unhappy about last season, any business would want to respond to that level of complaint. The board know that this is a pivotal season for Norwich City, the parachute money runs out and couple that with another  poor season and they are staring down the barrel of a mass exodus of fans, and a huge loss in revenue.

And before those of you who seem not to want to read what people post but just have a go because they dare to speak out against the club, I am not a WO, I am not suggesting that we will have a poor season - I am an ordinary fan who has sunk a lot of time, effort money, and emotion in supporting Norwich City FC over that last 30 years or so, I want us to succeed, I always get behind the team, but horror of horrors I have my doubts about whether long term NW is the man for the job, but to use a phrase from the man himself "I would be absolutely delighted" if he proves me wrong.

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While I both agree and disagree with them I do respect the KTF''ers for having the courage of their convictions and for providing important opposition for a debate.

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CJF Wrote!!

[quote]this site suffers because it is the only city message board with more than 2 regular posters whom are KTFers.  Therefore intense debate often turns to a bit of namecalling!!

You write something to rile them as I tried to do - (god forbid, the protests may have had some influence on what has been going on at the football club) and they all go ape.

Just like their refusal to beleive the chanting of HOOF every time the ball was launched forwards may have got the players to play it on the deck!!  It was just by chance in that game, after the hoof chanting we played it on the deck for the first time alll season!!  lol

I don''t see any problems on this site at all...this site most mirrors fans actual views at the moment, and the situation of the fans in the football club. Those that support the manager  and those that think he is limited overrated, and so as not to hurt the many of you whom are offended by swears, a plonker.

[/quote]

CJF you still do not get it, do you?  I would say to you again, that many KTF''s do not reckon that Worthy is a brilliant Manager, me included. He is a man who is employed as a football manager at NCFC, I think he is doing the best he can on what I believe are difficult conditions. There are not many managers out there that are likely to be better, nor are there many who would relish the sort of silly juvenile mismanaged demonstrations that are evolving at present.   A new manager that we could afford, that may want to come here would be subject to the same constraints form this board, as does Worthy.  If you and the outs group are contemplating a complete removal of the board and management etc. then there may be a new ethos that will surround the club, there is a possibility that someone as knowledgeable as you pretend to be may be given a honorary position on the board as a liaison officer for the manager out group, if we don''t agree with his methods and above all if he is unfortunate enough to have a military pedigree.  That is assuming that he is not carrying a burden of indecision on his shoulders.   Do you remember Bruce Rio-ch CJF!!

There are in your posts, as Chicken said, assumptions made that are grossly inaccurate and lack a factual basis and cannot be proved one way or another. Why make them? as they are inaccurate, and just a figment of your overactive imagination.  They really contribute nothing to the Worthy out cause that could possibility be construed as factual evidence;  he has made his football and media decisions purely on facts and happenings in real time as they present themselves to him, they are not made by someone like you who is short on facts and rich on assumptions.  Over the past three seasons I have often had this debate with Yankee Canary and we can be on different sides of the fence for perfectly good reasons , not invented ones.  While we agree to differ about the reasons, we have both come to a conclusion, and that is that Worthy is not a brilliant manager, he is not happy in a pressurised media situation and therefore does not come across well.  Where I say that most of NCFC''s problems, stem from the board downwards, and they impact on Worthy at the sharp end.  I will also say that the situation is not solvable by sacking the manager.  Much more drastic measures are needed to get to where the Worthy Outs will be happy with whats happening on the football field.  I for one am hoping for a better season where the games are fought out with genuine endeavour from the players with a thirst for competitive football that shows.  We have individual players that have not been performing as a team.  They know how they can improve on their last two seasons performances.  The younger readers of these boards are unlikely to agree with this but, Andy Boothroyd has brought his lads in for three fitness sessions a day in order to prepare them for stopping in the Prem, and just surviving is a poor target, in Adrians eyes just surviving is failure in his books.

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Point 1: I have nothing to do with Worthy Out, I attended 2 protests, after Brighton and the large one, I personally feel only chanting in the ground will get rid of him.  Then again I have never known a Norwich manager to be disliked by such a sizeable proportion of support before.

Point 2: why do you think I am trying to contribute anything to the worthy out cause here??  I am just stating MY OPINIONS.  You can agree with them or disagree with them as you like, I am open minded enough to change my views if challenged with good arguments.

I would love Worthington to prove me wrong, because that would mean he had sorted out the problems at our club. Bruice Rioch was never a bad manager, he had no money to spend and a very poor side...  he also signed Mulryne, Ancelin and Mackay along with Paul Dalglish[:S] it has to be said

As for chicken, he comes up with loads of innacurate facts which I just trawl soccerbase to refute - such as his Helveg and Safri did get a chance view - just tripe.  To be honest I didnt read his post on this thread, it just looked like an essay.

As I keep on saying - If we fail to make 6th place this season the board will have made a terrible and irreversible mistake...... 

While he is still manager I hope Worthless gets it right, as his is a simpleton I doubt it....

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[quote user="Sons of Boadicea"]

The mistake that Chicken, Dicky, Ralph Trite and their ilk make is that they think that the criticism of NW is limited to the protests etc. I truly believe that the club received a shed load of letters with the season ticket renewals, from people that did not attend any form of protest, post on any message boards, write to the local press etc, but were very unhappy about last season, any business would want to respond to that level of complaint. The board know that this is a pivotal season for Norwich City, the parachute money runs out and couple that with another  poor season and they are staring down the barrel of a mass exodus of fans, and a huge loss in revenue.

And before those of you who seem not to want to read what people post but just have a go because they dare to speak out against the club, I am not a WO, I am not suggesting that we will have a poor season - I am an ordinary fan who has sunk a lot of time, effort money, and emotion in supporting Norwich City FC over that last 30 years or so, I want us to succeed, I always get behind the team, but horror of horrors I have my doubts about whether long term NW is the man for the job, but to use a phrase from the man himself "I would be absolutely delighted" if he proves me wrong.

[/quote]

I would argue here that I am not suggesting that criticism of NW or the club for that matter is limited to the protestors - in fact what I am arguing is that if the likes of CJF are typical of the people involved in the protest I would argue they do not represent the views of the fans as a whole.

I think you are right - its fact that a lot of season ticket holders wrote in to complain about the way last season panned out. Personaly I do not feel that the protests and the general feel of the fans should be lumped into the same box.

I am not a KTF''er as people keep suggesting. I would agree with you that in the long term I have doubts whether Nigel Worthington is the man to take us onwards and upwards once more. The thing is Worthington has already been here the long term, and he has brought the club as a whole forward with results on the pitch - something some people here seem to refuse to accept even though it is FACT!

At the same time I recognise that at the moment there is a shortage of managers available that could be considered to have a better reccord than Worthington. So ok Martin O''Neil is still available but its a bit of a gamble isnt it? Would he really want to come here when he was interviewed for the England job and when Villa are now supposedly courting him? Other names bandid around at the beggining of the summer were also less than impressive - Mick McCarthy similar reccord to NW although struggled a hell of a lot more in the prem.

What really angers me is that CJF is suggesting that "his" protests got McVeigh a new contract and five youth players contracts. He argues this again and again even though there is NO FACT to back this up. He chooses to only answer the questions which he has a hope of beating back with useless conjecture.

I did not even disagree with him in the first instance - I merely suggested that the reason that these choices were made would not be souly down to the protests but that the protests may have been one of the factors involved in making the choices.

To think that six players have been given contracts because 500 people chanted Worthington out is extremely rediculous. The protests I would imagine were insignificant to the people who chose to write to the board. But these are seperate - many people chose to write because they did not agree with the protests and did not want to partake in them and therefore wished to express their opinions in a different manor.

Even with this considered those players would have been given new contracts based on footballing ability and nothing more. Spillain has already shown that he is more than capable of playing at this level and has Under-21 caps. I mean there is more arguments suggesting why we should have given these guys contracts than simply because some whinging fools had to be satisfied.

As I have said before - CJF do you really think that the board and NW are stupid enough to believe that giving these players a contract will stop the criticism?

Or do you think that it could be more to do with that without them we would now only have a squad of 20 Croft included?

I am sorry to Rudolph for making this yet another long post but I hope that he sees the sence in this.

Summed up:

CJF has suggested that giving six players new contracts is down to the pressure created by the protests put on the board.

I have argued that although I am sure the protests had an effect in their own way it cannot be argued that 5 accademy players and one senior player quoted by the manager as having a great natural footballing ability, would be given contracts just to keep the protestors off  the clubs back and entirely down to the protests themselves.

I argued that the lack of players 19 before Croft signed and without those given contracts may have been more of a desicive reason for them being given contracts.

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[quote user="We need a Manager"]You are right Foghorn this is the only site with any Worthington supporters and even on here they are a pathetic tiny minority .[/quote]

Sorry to interupt your cosy little circle, but there are people who don''t particularly like the manager who still feel supporting the team is better than cheering opposition goals.
I know you like to keep things black and white to make your witch hunt easier, but the world isn''t like that I''m afraid.


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[quote user="1st Wizard"]

And I thought the moderators had cut out all this bitching and name calling.

Within this thread, all the old site problems are still there.

[/quote]

Quite so Wiz.

One thing that strikes me also is that generally the name calling starts just after a KTF''er tries and insinuates that those that dare to scratch deeper than the CR spin machine are not real fans.

Thats the biggest insult of all - and shows how short of evidence there is one one particular side of the debate. A debate that they try and turn into an argument to detract from the real issues.

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[quote user="Herb"][quote user="We need a Manager"]You are right Foghorn this is the only site with any Worthington supporters and even on here they are a pathetic tiny minority .[/quote]

Sorry to interupt your cosy little circle, but there are people who don''t particularly like the manager who still feel supporting the team is better than cheering opposition goals.
I know you like to keep things black and white to make your witch hunt easier, but the world isn''t like that I''m afraid.


[/quote]

Hmm thats very starnge?

If genuinely don`t like the manager then why do you spend so much time defending him amnd trying to bolster support for him while at the same time attacking the fans

who want Worthy Out?

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[quote user="chicken"]

CJF has suggested that giving six players new contracts is down to the pressure created by the protests put on the board.

I have argued that although I am sure the protests had an effect in their own way it cannot be argued that 5 accademy players and one senior player quoted by the manager as having a great natural footballing ability, would be given contracts just to keep the protestors off  the clubs back and entirely down to the protests themselves.

I argued that the lack of players 19 before Croft signed and without those given contracts may have been more of a desicive reason for them being given contracts.

[/quote]

I think perhaps my view was that the protests, letters, meetings, arguments on message boards and directly with the board itself have perhaps seen a new direction in which the club is heading.  It is not ENTIRELY down to the protests and the above, but I really do beleive there has been a change in attitude and perhaps direction in the boardroom and on the football pitch of which the protests and the arguments they have put across have influenced.

Personally I wouldnt take anything from the manager saying a player had great footballing ability.... 

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