So why did we not sign Steve Howard?

[Dionysus 0]

1. £1m was considered to much money for a player of his age and quality.

Fine and I probably agree but I hope this doesn''t mean that we will have to make do with Peter Thorne who is clearly no longer good enough.

2. Howard did not want to join us.

Not a lot can be done about that but I hope it was for geographical reasons and not because he considers Derby a bigger, more ambitious club than we are.

3. We couldn''t afford the £1m asking price.

Very worrying. When we were relegated we were told that we didn''t need to sell anyone and that the money raised from any transfers would be put back into the playing budget. This simply hasn''t happened. So where is the cash? About time the board coughed up or at least came clean about any financial mismanagement.

4. Money is being saved for a new manager.

I hope so!

[Syteanric 1]

[quote user="Dionysus"]

 This simply hasn''t happened. So where is the cash? About time the board coughed up or at least came clean about any financial mismanagement.

[/quote]

I have been saying that on here for months...

 when the current regime took over we were just 6 million in debt.. last season financial report reveals a debt of over 18 million with countless loans we need to pay back.

 dont forget this involves the Playoff final, Promotion, Premiership money and high profile sales of Bellamy and Ashton in the past few seasons.... Sell out crowds for the past 5 or so years, we have sold Land to the Hoteliers, and other land around carrow road has been sold off... generating funds into the club

and yet we get told that the club is in huge debt. i dont buy this ITV digital rubbish as the cause.. plenty of other clubs have turned their finances around and reaped the rewards.. Sheffield United, Cardiff City to name but 2....  what it boils down to is Mismanagement.. the club havent spent on players beyond their mena sbut have entered into other business deals and poorly timed decisions.

 The south stand needed relacing, theres no doubt about it and there probably would never have been a perfect time to do it.. so to do it when we did was probably ok. however, the NU corner... was that really needed at the time? or was it just tacked on to make the ground look more enclosed and louder?

 the business deals with Fly Be etc... and Protons garage in the South stand... how much in rent are the tennants paying us? how much do we have to pay for keeping them at carrow road with rent and rates etc?

 would holding something like a concert generate more funds for the club? i dont know.. im guessing not due to the fact that the organisers of the event rent the stadium from the owners, then recoup their money through ticket sales... event staff and refreshments can be laid on i guess...

Delias resturant must surely be the cause of some of this debt as well... how much money does it make? its not cheap to eat there and only a certain clientele are going to afford it... this limits the number of customers and the amount of money coming into the club surely?

 Also, those Ktchens on the barclay.. how much did they cost to set up? were they financed by one of the loans...

the loans themsleves accrue interest which needs to be repaid, i dont know what the interest rate is or how its worked out but im guessing we owe into the hundred thousands to the banks etc.. this will just increase ourt financial hardship even more.

Surely the board must take some blame?!  Will the board take some of the blame should we spiral even more into debt..

Administration and a 10 point deduction is not an option... but with too many heads in the sand in the corridors at Carrow Road its just another worry the fans dont need.

jas :)

 

[mystic megson 0]

Excellent post, Jas, nothing I can really add except to reinforce the point about ITV Digital.  It went belly up so quickly that we didn''t so much lose money as never get it in the first place. 

If the club borrowed such a huge sum without waiting to see whether Digital would deliver (which I suspect they did), IMO that shows not simply a lack of prudence but something bordering on financial mismanagement.

[My spoon is too big! 21]

Or maybe:

5. We didn''t offer him a long enough contract. He signed a three year deal with Derby. Maybe we only offered one or two. *If* we achieve our aim of returning to the Prem within a season or two, would a 33-year-old Howard be any use to us? Maybe with at least two big earners already at the club, Huckerby and Earnshaw, we didn''t want to commit to paying the wages Derby offered for the period they were offering.

[Saint Canary 0]

[quote user="jas the barclay king"]

 the business deals with Fly Be etc... and Protons garage in the South stand... how much in rent are the tennants paying us? how much do we have to pay for keeping them at carrow road with rent and rates etc?

 [/quote]

I don''t get the question Jas.  You are asking how much tenants are paying us in rent then ask how much it''s costing us for rent and rates?

 

[Branston Pickle 3,657]

There are several fundamental problems with your post, jas, in that you seem to have made a number of assumptions about the Club''s finances, several of which are probably untrue.  It does seem to me that you do need to be an Accountant to understand all the Club''s finances and I now wish I had my set of Accounts handy so I could check what I''m about to say, but to answer your main points from what I thought was the position last year:

- we all know that the club is in debt, but off the top of my head I am sure it is all manageable debt of the sort that many businesses would carry (particularly footy clubs): there are income streams in place to service any loans;

- as I recall, Delia''s catering venture showed a clear profit last year, it may be expensive and not everyone''s cup of tea [no pun intended!] but it does seem to do well;

- I can''t imagine the Proton site was put there at any cost to the club, surely it is an income generator rather than a source of further expense (unless we own the franchise, but then we would assume a revenue stream from it). 

 

[mystic megson 0]

[quote user="Branston Pickle"]

There are several fundamental problems with your post, jas, in that you seem to have made a number of assumptions about the Club''s finances, several of which are probably untrue.  It does seem to me that you do need to be an Accountant to understand all the Club''s finances and I now wish I had my set of Accounts handy so I could check what I''m about to say, but to answer your main points from what I thought was the position last year:

- we all know that the club is in debt, but off the top of my head I am sure it is all manageable debt of the sort that many businesses would carry (particularly footy clubs): there are income streams in place to service any loans;

- as I recall, Delia''s catering venture showed a clear profit last year, it may be expensive and not everyone''s cup of tea [no pun intended!] but it does seem to do well;

- I can''t imagine the Proton site was put there at any cost to the club, surely it is an income generator rather than a source of further expense (unless we own the franchise, but then we would assume a revenue stream from it). 

 

[/quote]

With respect, Branston, several of your points about the club''s finances are based on assumptions.  I agree, however, that the accounts are not easy to interpret. 

For example, I am not sure how you arrived at the conclusion that the catering side made a profit.  It may well have done, but the accounts do not show it as a separate item.  The accounts state that catering income increased in 2004/05 by about £750,000 to approx £3.5 million.  In another place it states that the operating costs of catering and retail increased by about £200,000, but the total operating costs are not shown.  These accounts cover the Prem season, and it will be interesting to see what happened to catering income after we were relegated.

The point about "income streams to service any loans" is surely that this is money down the drain.  In 2004/05 there was a net cash outflow under "Returns on investments and servicing of finance" of £1,931,755. 

Interestingly, during the Prem season the "Average monthly number of regular employees" on the football side (including Academy and football support staff)  increased by 1 from 73 to 74.  The average number of "Other" staff increased by 15 from 112 to 127. It''s not clear what they mean by "regular", but I assume it does not apply to casual staff employed on matchdays.  Wages and salaries are shown as a single item and not broken down according to the various groups of staff.

 

 

 

 

 

[0peteddMMyyyy0Falseen-USTrue 0]

BP you are taking NCFC spin at face value look at the evidence no new players no offers of interest, what does that tell you?

[John Travolta is back 0]

[quote user="NorCal Canary"]Or maybe: 5. We didn''t offer him a long enough contract. He signed a three year deal with Derby. Maybe we only offered one or two. *If* we achieve our aim of returning to the Prem within a season or two, would a 33-year-old Howard be any use to us? Maybe with at least two big earners already at the club, Huckerby and Earnshaw, we didn''t want to commit to paying the wages Derby offered for the period they were offering.[/quote]

or

6. he didn''t fancy the presure of not getting off to a good start and getting booooed and slated left right and centre.

[Branston Pickle 3,657]

I''m no apologist for the Club, but people do need to make sure they know what they are talking about before they make assumptions on the finances.  I am not taken in any NCFC spin about the finances, nor was I making assumptions in what I said, these are how I recall the Accounts last year.   It is not enough to just look at the figures, you need to look at the text, the Notes, and the Reports.  As an Accountant it is part of my job to analyse accounts, and they have to, by law, give a "true and fair view" about how things are going: Norwich''s accounts will be no different - if you wish to raise an allegation that anything in them that is untrue, perhaps you should take it up with the auditors! 

RE: our transfer budget etc, that is something completely different and also something I disagree with - we should make as many funds available as possible, and take calculated risks.

[nh_ncfc 0]

I really do not know what to believe anymore, especially with this money problem!

I understand we have debt, but we were told blatantly by the board that would not affect us, and our money would be put in the kitty.

Something is really wrong here.

Come on board.. speak to us, that''s all we ask. It probably wouldn''t even ''''waste'''' a frigment of your time... (even tho we should be first priority.)

[Citizen Journalist Foghorn 0]

[quote user="John Travolta is back"]

[quote user="NorCal Canary"]Or maybe: 5. We didn''t offer him a long enough contract. He signed a three year deal with Derby. Maybe we only offered one or two. *If* we achieve our aim of returning to the Prem within a season or two, would a 33-year-old Howard be any use to us? Maybe with at least two big earners already at the club, Huckerby and Earnshaw, we didn''t want to commit to paying the wages Derby offered for the period they were offering.[/quote]

or

6. he didn''t fancy the presure of not getting off to a good start and getting booooed and slated left right and centre.

[/quote]

why are our fans any different to any other club??  Hughes was booed at reading??  Preston fans accused Etuhu of being lethargic..  as his Preston nicknames Dickson Whereareyou and Dickson Ebooboo bear out...

[Saint Canary 0]

[quote user="Branston Pickle"]

I''m no apologist for the Club, but people do need to make sure they know what they are talking about before they make assumptions on the finances.  I am not taken in any NCFC spin about the finances, nor was I making assumptions in what I said, these are how I recall the Accounts last year.   It is not enough to just look at the figures, you need to look at the text, the Notes, and the Reports.  As an Accountant it is part of my job to analyse accounts, and they have to, by law, give a "true and fair view" about how things are going: Norwich''s accounts will be no different - if you wish to raise an allegation that anything in them that is untrue, perhaps you should take it up with the auditors! 

RE: our transfer budget etc, that is something completely different and also something I disagree with - we should make as many funds available as possible, and take calculated risks.

[/quote]

I agree Branston - I said on here a few weeks ago that if anyone has serious concerns over the financial management of the club then maybe they should consider contacting the relevant authorities.

As for the original question, I would imagine the answer is number 1 and fully agree.  Howard is not worth £1m for his age and experience at this level.  He also only had 1 year left on his contract - I can''t help feeling that we would all have been upset had Worthy spent £1m on Howard.

[chicken 0]

[quote user="Paul Rankin"][quote user="John Travolta is back"]

[quote user="NorCal Canary"]Or maybe: 5. We didn''t offer him a long enough contract. He signed a three year deal with Derby. Maybe we only offered one or two. *If* we achieve our aim of returning to the Prem within a season or two, would a 33-year-old Howard be any use to us? Maybe with at least two big earners already at the club, Huckerby and Earnshaw, we didn''t want to commit to paying the wages Derby offered for the period they were offering.[/quote]

or

6. he didn''t fancy the presure of not getting off to a good start and getting booooed and slated left right and centre.

[/quote]

why are our fans any different to any other club??  Hughes was booed at reading??  Preston fans accused Etuhu of being lethargic..  as his Preston nicknames Dickson Whereareyou and Dickson Ebooboo bear out...

[/quote]

Here we go. Its great isnt it? I don''t think it is that our fans are any different to any club now, but as I highlighted in another post a couple of seasons ago and for several seasons in a row our supporters were recognised for being different to other clubs - in a possitive way.

Now I would say that at least sections of the support are negative and different to other clubs in that way. Why would a player want to come to a hostile environment?

As for Hughes and Etuhu being booed by their own fans at their previous clubs - I think you will find that that is pure speculation unless you are now going to tell me that you were present at a game where they were.

You found a couple of emails about the players on fan sites which we know as to be quite unreliable. For example if you went through the posts on these forums I think you will find that there has been a negative comment about every single player in the squad at the moment including the likes of Huckerby.

As we all know this does not translate to them all being booed on the pitch come match days.

I don''t know what you are trying to obtain by spreading rumours and comments such as these but you should at least attempt to back up you comments with more than your hell bent attitude to bring down the structure at Carrow Road.

[mystic megson 0]

[quote user="Branston Pickle"]

I''m no apologist for the Club, but people do need to make sure they know what they are talking about before they make assumptions on the finances.  I am not taken in any NCFC spin about the finances, nor was I making assumptions in what I said, these are how I recall the Accounts last year.   It is not enough to just look at the figures, you need to look at the text, the Notes, and the Reports.  As an Accountant it is part of my job to analyse accounts, and they have to, by law, give a "true and fair view" about how things are going: Norwich''s accounts will be no different - if you wish to raise an allegation that anything in them that is untrue, perhaps you should take it up with the auditors! 

RE: our transfer budget etc, that is something completely different and also something I disagree with - we should make as many funds available as possible, and take calculated risks.

[/quote]

Branston, I don''t recall anyone suggesting that the accounts are untrue.  They are not as transparent as perhaps they could be, but no doubt the same applies to company accounts in general. 

Facts are facts, however, and nearly £2 million down the drain in one season on servicing debts is not something that, as a shareholder, I am at all happy about.  I can see that in purely financial terms it''s not a major problem provided we can raise the money to pay it.  But for the club to then plead poverty when it comes to the transfer budget makes me sick, quite honestly.  This is a FOOTBALL club.  I accept that a certain level of debt is inevitable, but IMO the club has bitten off far more than it can chew.   

By the way, I have of course read the Notes and the Reports.  I''m not completely stupid.  Are shareholders not entitled to ask questions?  If we don''t, who will?  Not the local press, that''s for sure.