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streakey

WEST HAM AND WIGAN GO WHERE NORWICH FEARED TO TREAD.

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Both teams are heading for that all important second year in the premiership and never looked much like struggling all last season.Why then did Norwich find it such a daunting task and constantly choked in each game.Just like Norwich they both have a young manager and squads with little premiership experience in them.Both spent wisely and did''nt buy a large number of ex premiership players.It must be in the managerial approach they have then,which  installs spirit in the team ,the ability  to win and be very hard to beat in every game .  Looking back on our flirtation with the big time and  recalling the comments ,match approach ,preparation ,body lanuage of the players and managerial style of one of the brightest young managers in the game it is obvious where the buck stops.All we can do now is look back in anger at one hell of a fine mess youre got us in Stanley.

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Wigan spent an absolute shedload of cash last season, bringing in recognised Premiership performers such as Stephane Henchoz, David Thompson, Neil Mellor.  The charman is one of the richest men in the country, and could afford to bankroll a team that would survive.  Admittedly they did better than survive, but they were never going to struggle with the financial support available.

West Ham have a young team that has improved as a unit together over 2 or 3 seasons.  Matty Etherington, Marlon Harewood, Anton Ferdinand and others know eahc other''s games inside and out.  We didn''t have the luxury of either of these situations.  We had to wheel and deal with what we had, which was an ageing defence, and not much money available.

I really should have ignored this post, no good can come of it as it''s just another excuse for Worthy bashing.

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Blah blah - haven''t we done this to death now? It''s like your parents

asking when you were a kid why you coudn''t be like the class swat and

be top of the class! Well, mine did anyway! The difference being that

we did try at least this season, but failed - i just sat at the back

looking out the window! Maybe some of our players did that too.

But Pardew and Jewell are, for now at least, top of the class of

promoted teams. They clearly had something that our manager and the

countless others that have managed teams relegated after one season

didn''t. But there are other members of the class that got it right when

given the chance and a stable environment to work in - Curbishley and

Allardyce in particular. Worthy could still emulate them. Yes, i''m an

optimist, even if i am concerned that the trials and tribulations of

this last season might have adversely affected him. I think he has

become more stubborn and probably a little resentful, maybe resulting

in a loss of willingness to learn and adapt.

But as for your subject line, try "West Ham and Wigan go where ***** fear to tread"

In the space, you can put any of the following: Norwich, Sunderland,

West Brom, Crystal Palace, Wolves, Leicester, Bolton, Charlton,

Barnsley, Watford, Swindon...

All were relegated after one season in the Premiership. Ipswich and

Bradford could be added to the list if you included those coming down

after two seasons, and, interestingly, apart from Swindon, those two

are probably as far away as any in the list from a return to the top

flight.

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Its not even "another" excuse - its one of the sames ones that has dropped off the front page so has to be posted new again to get fresh impetous.

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Wigan did spend a reasonable amount of money however the players you have quoted above were either loan players or on free transfers. The only players we spent a lot of money on were Conolly (waste of money), Camara and Francis (complete waste of money). In total, I don''t think we actually spent that much more  then Norwich did when they got promoted. Jewell had some good existing players and bought a couple of cheap players who came good, such as Chimbonda. I think the real difference is the manager.

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[quote user="blahblahblah"]

West Ham have a young team that has improved as a unit together over 2 or 3 seasons.  Matty Etherington, Marlon Harewood, Anton Ferdinand and others know eahc other''s games inside and out.  We didn''t have the luxury of either of these situations.  We had to wheel and deal with what we had, which was an ageing defence, and not much money available.

[/quote]

I''m sorry blahblahblah, but I thought we had the basis of a team that had gelled together over a few seasons.  The team you mention West Ham actually only blended together over 1 and a half season''s.

As for an ageing defense I don''t think Drury Edworthy Fleming and Mackay were too old for the premiership, not good enough perhaps, but certainly a well organised unit.  And if the problem was as you say ''an ageing defense'' then why were Simon Charlton and Thomas Helveg signed?  Why wasnt young Shackell given a chance sooner.  To be fair our worst Defender in our premiership season was probably Gary Doherty.

I still beleive that we had a squad capable enough to survive, but that some of the better players were underused, and some players whom were obviously not up to the job were replaced at far too late a stage.  I also think we had an extremely negative outlook to our premiership experience and that a lack of belief was eminating from the top throuoghout the squad (and I don''t just mean the manager but the board as well).  I also think that the fans gave far too much slack to poor decisions being made by the management (for example the quiet Drury as captain).

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Wiganer - Whats the story with Jason Roberts? Is his pay offer really that bad? Or is he just trying to jump ship like Jimmy and Pascal?

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I am no hardcore Worthy Outer but to say that Worthington could still emulate Allardyce or Curbishly is probably the most optomistic thing I have ever read on this forum!

Nigel has spent two season''s during which time he has made poor decision after poor decision.  Another poster was saying last season we had our worst defensive record since 1997/1998! I found that fact unbeleivable, we are supposed to be building a team to stay in the premiership not a side that can''t even defend in the championship.  This isnt building a team, there is no forethought or planning going on, its management on the fly.

The number of underused loans backs this up, positions remaining unfilled for years, players reguarly out of position!! Where are the youth players??  the young and hungry signings that are always spoken of?

It all rings of the supposed passing tactics they do up at colney, all talk and no action...  There has been a lot of that from the club these last two seasons.

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Afternoon Gentlemen

There is a previous post about Roberts, Mackay etc and the leadership that is now missing on the pitch and it is my belief that we lacked strong leadership and desire when we were promoted, we were too content as a club (and I don''t include the fans in that) the Board and Management to settle for "doing a Bolton, Charlton or even West Brom", to go up, accept that we might come back down, spend another season in the Champioship and then return stronger, both on and off the pitch.

Compare Watford, ambitious to the level where we could all have a good chuckle at them, Watford aiming for Europe, wake up and smell the coffee.But wait, that target demonstrates that the Manager and Board have belief in the players, no talk of bouncing back up should they get relegated.Good structure too, Assistant manager is Keith Burkinshaw (anyone remember him?) now 70, been in the game for years, managed at a very senior level, won trophies with Tottenham, been mentoring Boothroyd for years, even when he was at Norwich. anyone hear the interview with him on Radio 5 before the play-off final?

Lawrenson said it  a few times, we NCFC are too nice.We need to be stronger, stronger leadership from the Board, down through the management and coaching through to the players on the field.In hindsight, a wonderful thing, I think that we were happy to be the little club playing with the big boys without really having the belief that we belonged.

 

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[quote user="Wonder Wiganer"]

I think the real difference is the manager.

[/quote]

But some guy on here thinks Worthy could still be the next Curbishly or Allardyce?!?!?!  Andy HOOOOOZZZZZZZEEEEEE is a player I have admired for some time..........

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Apologies to all, I really shouldn''t have replied to the first post.

 

Foghorn standard reply 328 : HOOOOOOZZZZEEEE.  Do you ever think for yourself, or do you just recycle other peoples'' negativity ?

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[quote user="Citizen Journalist Foghorn"][quote user="Wonder Wiganer"]

I think the real difference is the manager.

[/quote]

But some guy on here thinks Worthy could still be the next Curbishly

or Allardyce?!?!?!  Andy HOOOOOZZZZZZZEEEEEE is a player I have

admired for some time..........

[/quote]

My apologies Boghorn Hack, "some guy" just meant emulate as far as to

get us up next season and stay there for a second season. Still, if he managed

that, who''s to say what could be achieved? We''d have a better chance of

staying up than last time with all that everyone learnt from the first

time. It''s not so impossible. It may look it now, but west ham fans

thought the same when they lost the play offs.

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[quote user="Trent Canary"]Wiganer - Whats the story with Jason Roberts? Is his pay offer really that bad? Or is he just trying to jump ship like Jimmy and Pascal?[/quote]

Although Wigan as a club has money, they try and run a fairly tight wage structure. I think many of these palyers will get bigger wages elsewhere. I have to admit it is a bit worrying however I do trust PJ to bring in some good replacements. As long as we try and stop the rubbish one''s coming like Francis....

 

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From what I read/saw/heard worthless was working to the plan of getting relegated and bouncing back instead of staying there once we had finaly got to the premiership.Wigan and West Ham never planned for relegation at all,Wigan were even talking for their next target being europe,which most people laughed at.  

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I guess Wigan are getting the flip-side of what  is traditional for newly-relegated clubs. Rather than players wanting to remain in the Premiership, their overachievement (certainly above what was expected of them) has lead to some players getting a bit ''big-for-their-boots'' (see Chimbonda), and feeling like they could cut it at clubs like Bolton and Tottenham?  I''d be mighty irritated with them if I was a Latics fan.

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A1canary, what you comment on is my issue with the Norwich Board and Nigel Worthington. You state "with all that we have learned from our last attempt in the Premiership". Please show me where there is a clear article from Nigel Worthington or Delia/Munby etc., outlining very clearly what we learned from our Premiership experience and what we, perhaps, should have done differently. I am not just being critical for the sake of it. If there is such a clear statement from the club I would like to read it. I have seen all kinds of expressions from the fans of what we did/should have learned, but we are not the ones calling the shots, are we?

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[quote user="Wonder Wiganer"]

Wigan did spend a reasonable amount of money however the players you have quoted above were either loan players or on free transfers. The only players we spent a lot of money on were Conolly (waste of money), Camara and Francis (complete waste of money). In total, I don''t think we actually spent that much more  then Norwich did when they got promoted. Jewell had some good existing players and bought a couple of cheap players who came good, such as Chimbonda. I think the real difference is the manager.

[/quote]

Connolly - £2M

Taylor - £750-£1M

Francis - £1.75M

Camara - £3M

Chimbonda - £500k

Scharner - £2.5M

Pollit - £200k

Plus the wages of experienced premiership players in Henchoz and De Zueew

Over £10M on fees alone in one season for a club that is (no offence) smaller than a lot of Championship clubs is a lot of money that couldn''t have been spent unless it was bankrolled.

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Ok, so we are not a big club. We have only been in the league for the past 20 years or so. We sold Ellington for 3 million so that reduced the amount of money we spent. It really makes no difference attacking Wigan for having someone bankroll them. Delia has done that for Norwich on a number of occasions, paying for transfers and wages. It''s just that Mr Whelan has more money than her. I am sure if she had a bit more money then she would be doing more for Norwich in the transfer market.

I still maintain the difference in us staying up and Norwich going down is the manager !!!!

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[quote user="Wonder Wiganer"]

Ok, so we are not a big club. We have only been in the league for the past 20 years or so. We sold Ellington for 3 million so that reduced the amount of money we spent. It really makes no difference attacking Wigan for having someone bankroll them. Delia has done that for Norwich on a number of occasions, paying for transfers and wages. It''s just that Mr Whelan has more money than her. I am sure if she had a bit more money then she would be doing more for Norwich in the transfer market.

I still maintain the difference in us staying up and Norwich going down is the manager !!!!

[/quote]wigan did well becuase they shored their defence up - getting 2 experienced tall centre backs in and unearthing  a gem at right back was enough to stem the goals.  w.ham did the same, buying gabidon to play alongside ferdinand, and getting in luke young from charlton at left back.  having read the papers this weekend, it seems warnock is going the same route - looking for quality defenders.what did city do?  we ditched makay, and imported simon charlton to play alongside flemming in the middle - the shortest central defence pairing in the prem?  many agreed  makay was too slow, but so was flem as he''d proved  against quality attackers in the past -  standing off players rather than getting close to them.  so yeah wiganer - perhaps it is down to the manager and the personnel they select.

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