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First Wizard

We Are All But Broke!.

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As a shareholder with a single share I recently received a divi of over £4, am I correct in saying Delia and hubby have over 500,000 shares? if so not a bad payout of over £2 million to them!

Can n''t be too broke can we?

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[quote user="Rustyboy"]

As a shareholder with a single share I recently received a divi of over £4, am I correct in saying Delia and hubby have over 500,000 shares? if so not a bad payout of over £2 million to them!

Can n''t be too broke can we?

[/quote]

Show me the new players Rustyboy, show me the new players.

Mind you, I can point out some very expensive concrete for you!.

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Good post, I wrote something to the same effect two seasons ago,  why do some people think that because we have an asset to the value of the loan, that we are safe.  If we are called on to repay the debt, we lose the asset, to repay the outstanding debt. thus no asset no debt.  In this case no NCFC.  Thats why we have to be cautious and prudent.  Thats why we can''t by big money stars, and we cant pay the wages out of the income generated, which is why we have to have more fans  through the gates and why we have to make the ground capacity greater,and so on, it''s simple economics.  You can call up money against assets but like Leeds etc when the bank wants settlement then you have problems cos the cash generated from gates etc is spent on wages with a three million deficit to boot.

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The dividend paid to shareholders is money that depletes the wealth of the club i.e money borrowed against a share issue at alow rate of interest.  Also if the club becomes broke as a result of bad management then the share value falls and Delia and co have shares worth the market price of ? whatever the market will pay, look at Leeds and Ipswich

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But how many are like me (including perhaps Michael and Delia) and don''t actually cash their divi cheques - I figure that since I don''t get to see my team and spend money in the club shop that is my little contribution to the clubs finances.

Mark .Y.

 

  

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GOTF it depends on what type of shares you went for, A or B. I am sorry I am not sure which one pays out as I have got both

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I''ve brought this thread back because posters need reminding of it, we are all but broke!.

Don''t expect too many good signings because the money simply isn''t there in my opinion, you could try asking the board where its gone, but I wouldn''t hold your breath waiting for the reply!.

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The club is not ''broke'' as you claim.

What might be broke is the mechanism on that old gramophone that appears stuck on the same record.

Still, fair play for sticking with posting up the same old rubbish on the principle that one day something you post might be right.

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[quote user="Ralph Wright"]The club is not ''broke'' as you claim. What might be broke is the mechanism on that old gramophone that appears stuck on the same record. Still, fair play for sticking with posting up the same old rubbish on the principle that one day something you post might be right.[/quote]

I''m not normally a great defender of Wizard but I think he raises an important issue. We may not be broke but we are heavily in debt (about 18 million) and have to pay large amounts of interest each year, which limits our freedom in the transfer market.

We do have the ground to offset against the debts, so we are not technically broke but who would want to sell the ground. Then you really are in trouble!

There is not potloads of cash. The trouble is that Delia et al are far poorer than many chairs + board members. I think Gold and Sullivan at Birmingham are both worth over £500 million each.

Someone did a really good explanation of this in another thread about the samer time, with detailed reference to the company accounts.

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Delia needs to dump the cookery books, and start to produce rudie bare belly button - ''top of the shelf magazines'' - if we want to aspire to what Sullivan at ''Brum brum'' has achieved. They''ve had their ''knockers''.....but it''s financed the Blue''s squad, and no doubt will return them to the Prem this coming season. 

Porno pays! ...........allegedly.[:P]   

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I have reviewed the accounts - it is true we are asset rich and cash poor - we could cash in on the assets to pay the debts off - but then the assets would be gone (stadium/players).  I am sure that we can all appreciate where this would leave us.  The good news is that our debt is secured (partly) and authorized and regulated as well as paying down - rather than spiralling out of control like other clubs I could claim to mention.  However what capital we do raise the board are sinking into the wrong asset section (stadium not players).

Due to my location and the sheer logistics of attending home games (away games are no problem) I have taken to watching Bournemouth - who are in a similar situation but with a smaller fan base.  there situation is so bad they have had to enter into a sale and lease back of there ground to pay a portion of their debt.  However some aspiring fans have realised they need to help there club and have set up a Ltd company called playershare.  This is funded by donations to the company in exchange for shares (Minumum pledge is £1000).  They then give money to the club to contribute towards wages/transfer fees/sigining on fees - in repayment they take a share of any transfer fees generated  - a % of this goes back into the fund and a % to the shareholders - however the majority reinvest - so it is not for profit or return essentially.  We all know what we can do when we need to raise money for players (I have shares and put a good sum in the Huckerby buckets) and an option like this would give us the fans more control.  It is something I have been thinking about taking forward for a while now - however I guess before I get started i would need to garner local opinion - what do you folks think??

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[quote user="Getting off the fence"]I am a shareholder but I haven''t received any dividends? Is this genuine?[/quote]

I did receive a divi for my solitary B share at the end of the season.  £4.05.  I sent it back with a note saying I didn''t buy shares to make money.  Not sure what they made of that, but I had a letter from K Platt thanking me for returning it.  

Not sure what the position is regarding divis for A shares and Ordinary.

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So in fact we are not broke, we just don''t have the possible access to money that Birmingham may or may not have.

We are not broke in the sense that we are not in a position that we had not budgeted for.

 

 

 

 

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[quote user="Ralph Wright"]The club is not ''broke'' as you claim. What might be broke is the mechanism on that old gramophone that appears stuck on the same record. Still, fair play for sticking with posting up the same old rubbish on the principle that one day something you post might be right.[/quote]

That "rubbish" you refer to is quoted directly from the last two Annual Reports.  We borrowed £15m in 03/04, not for player transfers or wages (the financiers won''t lend money for that) but for capital projects.  In 03/04 we paid £1.5m interest on that loan.  In  04/05 we paid another £1.75m.  In 05/06 I believe that the first capital repayment was due.  It was only £300,000, so interest payments won''t have been far off the same amount again last season.  The rate of interest on this loan appears to be around 10%.  Prudence?

If we are paying off the loan at £300,000 a year, how long will it take to pay off £15m?  Correct.  Fifty years.  I''ll be dead long before that happens.  If there''s anyone out there who can do sums, try and work out how much interest we will have paid by then. 

Even a wildly optimistic scenario whereby the capital repayments gradually increase and the term is only 25 years, say, that''s still a serious amount of money that could and should be spent on making Norwich City the best football club it can possibly be, instead of making the rich even richer.

After Chase went, the new regime traded heavily on the notion that they understood what we had been through, and that they would make sure it never happened again.  That''s what upsets me more than anything. 

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Since the inception of the Premiership era football has been the worst run industry in this country. The legacy of financial mismanagement has left many clubs crippled by debt. ITV digital is still blamed and they certainly contributed to pushing the clubs over the edge. However the simple fact is that the massive sums of cash available to any club that claws it''s way up into the promised land of the premiership creates a gamblers mentality amongst clubs. They spend cash they don''t have trying to win one of those three elusive lucky golden tickets. Elsewhere on the message board I''ve read a post stating that we msut gamble given the enormous rewards on offer and the fact that so many other clubs are throwing cash (they don''t have) at the problem. This attitude scares me as it suggests we''re moving away from the idea of running clubs as viable long term businesses and instead taking up roulette. It reminds me of those lottery rollovers in which the massive prize on offer leads to ticket sales tripling, but nobody really has a better pound for pund chance of winning anything.

I appreciate the sentiment behind not cashing your dividend cheque but all you do is contribute to the mismanagement of the football industry. We have one of the better run clubs in this division with a stated aim of living within our means. Season ticket sales, hatrick plans, casual tickets, sponsorship, hospitality and merchandising generate the revenue but it should not be up to the charity of fans to constantly make up the shortfall. If a club becomes reliant on this idea of fans returning dividends, not cashing in their preference shares then this in the long run is more damaging to the club than the short term ''loss'' of revenue. Football should not be a charity, the English FA and the Premiership have ruthlessly run it as a revenue generating machine and failed to look after clubs below the top 20 the ordinary fan should not be asked to make up the difference. If you want to give to charity cash your dividend and give the cash to Shelter, to charities working in Darfour, the earthquake area of Pakistan, those providing clean drinking water in drought areas of Africa or   Cancer research. Football has set its stall out as an industry so let it live within its means, we already pay more for tickets than the rest of europe as it is.

 

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" If we are paying off the loan at £300,000 a year, how long will it take to pay off £15m?  Correct.  Fifty years.  I''ll be dead long before that happens.  If there''s anyone out there who can do sums, try and work out how much interest we will have paid by then "

The repayment is usually fixed at a level amount. As the amount owed decreases so does the interest due decrease. More of the repayment  is then allocated towards capital payment.

You don''t seem to be too bright, are you from suffolk by any chance ?

 

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My reference to ''all but broke'' was meant in transfer terms, I thought that was clear!.

One way out of this league is ambition!, you can make the signings to get us back to the premiership or stay for years (The boards choice in my opinion) in the Chumpionship.

Yes, that means risk taking and borrowing.

Remember Huckerby?.

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Mystic Meg -

"We borrowed £15m in 03/04, not for player transfers or wages (the financiers won''t lend money for that) but for capital projects"

1st Wizard -

"you can make the signings to get us back to the premiership or stay for years (The boards choice in my opinion) in the Chumpionship.

Yes, that means risk taking and borrowing."

 

 Even those who disagree with the club cannot agree

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I have no knowledge whatsoever of financial matters, but I can''t believe our board would be so naive as to take on a loan lasting up to 50 years, Mystic Megson. In fact, I can vaguely remember a time scale for the repayment of the loan being mentioned in the EDP. I''m pretty sure it wasn''t too much more than 10 years. Why do posters insist on dreaming up "facts" and "figures" and then try to pass them off as the truth? By all means surmise and speculate, but when you do so, please make it clear that what you''ve said is just your opinion, and not the gospel according to Saint Delia and Saint Michael.

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So you''d rather put us in league 1 by taking a risk buying our way into Premiership football  ?

Reading got promoted AND balanced the books.

Remember Notts Forest ?

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[quote user="stephen nobbs"]I have no knowledge whatsoever of financial matters, but I can''t believe our board would be so naive as to take on a loan lasting up to 50 years, Mystic Megson. In fact, I can vaguely remember a time scale for the repayment of the loan being mentioned in the EDP. I''m pretty sure it wasn''t too much more than 10 years. Why do posters insist on dreaming up "facts" and "figures" and then try to pass them off as the truth? By all means surmise and speculate, but when you do so, please make it clear that what you''ve said is just your opinion, and not the gospel according to Saint Delia and Saint Michael.[/quote]

I agree and I''m pretty certain that when the loan was announced it was £15m over 15 years as the club made a big fuss about it as we were (at the time) the first club out of the top division to be granted a long-term loan to ''securitise'' (if thats a word!) existing debt which I believe was around the £8m mark and to use the left over for the South Stand Redevelopment.

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Most people would disagree with this I expect but i would rather see the club take some financial risks to get back in the Premiership rather than have a financially sound club that finishes mid table in the Championship every season.

[quote user="blahblahblah"]

So you''d rather put us in league 1 by taking a risk buying our way into Premiership football  ?

Reading got promoted AND balanced the books.

Remember Notts Forest ?

[/quote]

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[quote user="stephen nobbs"]I have no knowledge whatsoever of financial matters, but I can''t believe our board would be so naive as to take on a loan lasting up to 50 years, Mystic Megson. In fact, I can vaguely remember a time scale for the repayment of the loan being mentioned in the EDP. I''m pretty sure it wasn''t too much more than 10 years. Why do posters insist on dreaming up "facts" and "figures" and then try to pass them off as the truth? By all means surmise and speculate, but when you do so, please make it clear that what you''ve said is just your opinion, and not the gospel according to Saint Delia and Saint Michael.[/quote]

The £300,000 repayment and £15m loan are facts taken from the Annual Report.  The rest was speculation.  A bit OTT I agree.  In mitigation m''lud, I got back last night from a fantastic holiday to find I had been burgled.  RW spouting his usual guff (I think that''s the word he would choose) was the final straw. 

Do we still shoot burglars?

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[quote user="mystic megson"]

Do we still shoot burglars?

[/quote]

Nope, far too humane. And fast. :)

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[quote user="Ralph Wright"]" The rest was speculation. A bit OTT I agree. " So no real substance to it at all. Quelle suprise[/quote]

"RW spouting his usual guff"

Quelle surprise

(With apologies to the rest of you who log on to this board for some reasonably serious debate)

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Oh dear, poor old mystic posts up stuff that even he admits was speculation then throws his toys out of the pram when someone has the cheek to point out those self same errors..

" reasonably serious debate " eh

Can''t remember when anyone who had to give evidence was asked to tell half the truth, not the whole truth and speculate on the rest.

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I offer no apologies for bringing this back...........everyone needs reminding!.

We''re now loaning out players left, right, and centre to save wages, the club is tying to get rid of ''sick note'' for the same reasons and today Grant has said no one new will be brought in before the Wolves game.

Of course they won''t, because we''re all but broke!.

In fact, I predict, that we will sign NO ONE before the transfer window slams shut.

Please tell me that you didn''t actually believe Grant did you?.

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