We Are All But Broke!.

[First Wizard 0]

No, don''t laugh, I really believe this to be the case.

Have you read Worthy''s comments today, that even Davenport at £1 million is too exepensive!.

All I can see is sub standard,  free and loan players coming in, because we don''t have any cash left to splash.

But what worries me as well is, where has the Ashton money gone?. I tell you the City board know we''re close to being broke, NW has just hinted at that today.

And the board haven''t even got the guts or honesty, in my opinion, to come clean about it................or why?.

[blahblahblah 2]

sssssssssshhhh.  You''ll push the transfer prices up.

As for the Ashton money, Crewe made 5 million out of his moves.  We made approx 2 million on the West Ham move, because Crewe had a 25% sell-on clause.  We paid 3 million for Earnshaw, or was it 3.5 million ?  So that''s the Ashton money plus some.

[morty 0]

[quote user="1st Wizard"]

No, don''t laugh, I really believe this to be the case.

Have you read Worthy''s comments today, that even Davenport at £1 million is too exepensive!.

All I can see is sub standard,  free and loan players coming in, because we don''t have any cash left to splash.

But what worries me as well is, where has the Ashton money gone?. I tell you the City board know we''re close to being broke, NW has just hinted at that today.

And the board haven''t even got the guts or honesty, in my opinion, to come clean about it................or why?.

[/quote]

Let me explain. If you go to a salesman and tell him you have a tenner to spend then he''ll sell you something for a tenner, following so far? It suits us and improves our ability to negotiate a fair deal if the whole world thinks we''re potless.

 I would adopt a "wait and see" on this one if I were you Wiz, or alternatively you could use this smokescreen as an excuse for some board/worthy/delia/tea lady bashing, your choice.

[ronbol ronbol 0]

why not read the club accounts, we are as wiz said broke, any other business would have gone bust long ago.............

[johnny 0]

where has all the money gone ? thats an easy question to answer. its all gone on loan players dont forget these players that come from prem clubs are on big money, wages we have to pay. as well in some case a loan fee. zesh rahman for instance.and the other 8 or so we had last year.

[mystic megson 0]

Just for once I''m with Wiz on this one, more or less.

I don''t buy the "pretend we''re broke and we''ll get players on the cheap" line.  I don''t believe we''re nearly broke either.

Leaving aside the issue of whether or not we were a "selling" club last season, there''s the little matter of £12m parachute money. 

I know for a fact that some of last season''s was spent on the Community Stand.  I wouldn''t be a bit surprised if a good deal of this season''s has been earmarked for adding a second tier to the City Stand.  Watch this space . . .

Did the Premiership in their generosity allocate this money to relegated clubs so that they could spend it on bricks and mortar?  I don''t think so.

IMO the days of parachute payments are strictly numbered.  Most clubs now have a wage structure in place which means that there is no longer a need to bridge the gap between Prem wages and Champ income.

Even some fans'' organisations are against it.  At the Football Supporters Federation conference being held this weekend, they will be voting on a motion to scrap parachute payments.

[Branston Pickle 4,149]

[quote user="ronbol ronbol"]why not read the club accounts, we are as wiz said broke, any other business would have gone bust long ago.............
[/quote]

As an accountant I read our accounts with interest - and have to say we are in a much better position than most sides in the Championship in general terms.

With regard to the Davenport, the quote from worthy was: "The figure we were quoted by Spurs last year was £3m but we haven''t got that sort of money. It isn''t a huge amount of money that we have to work with.”  This is rather different than him saying £1m is out of range, though of course it might be!  

[chicken 0]

Well it depends on how much people want to look into it. Megson is on the right tracks though.When we were promoted I remember something about the club not having to worry about debts in the near future now. I took that as meaning we had more or less paid off the large majority of it and were now living within reasonable realms of debt once more rather than the £20million plus before promotion.One thing I am angry with the FA about is the way they have dealt with the new TV rights deals. They should keep the money the same in the prem and allocate more to the lower leagues starting with the championship.The premiership is rumoured to be going to be worth double what we got when we went up! Its ludicrous when you consider this league and the leagues bellow it are going to get little in return when you consider that a lot of players plying their trade in the premiership have either come from a lower league club or been sent on loan their.The game needs to be kept proportional otherwise you may as well just have a seperate league altogether for the high flyers.It has already been highlighted over the last two seasons that unless you go into the premiership with at least £10million to spend then you not likely to stay up without a struggle. What is the average spend in the championship in comparison? I would say between £600k and £1.5million. The FA to me is going down the wrong path and it could cost football everything if they are not careful.Wage capping is a start although I think this can only be done once they have figured out a way of monitering the way agents work. I think this is a big time for the English FA and its time for them to put everything back on the straight and narrow.

[Ken Aries 0]

I was interested to read that a substantial amount of the parachute payment has been earmarked for building a second tier on the City Stand, Mystic Megson. Do you have a reliable source for this information, or is it just a rumour you have heard?

[YankeeCanary 0]

Morty, using the same tone you used with Wizard, let me explain things to you. If you go to a salesman to buy chickens when he has already sold his capacity, he will likely tell you that he has a great price for chickens but, unfortunately, he has no chickens. He then consoles you by selling you his sparrows ( which nobody else wants ) at a great price ( he says ). You end up paying over the odds for the sparrows because you are desperate to show those you are accountable to ( read the paying customers ) that you have bought something. However, the customers are not wanting see sparrows, they want to see chickens. Are you following the logic here Morty, and applying it to what has been transpiring for some time. 

[Mook 0]

Honestly.

You fall for this one every time Wiz.

[Herb 0]

[quote user="1st Wizard"]

Have you read Worthy''s comments today, that even Davenport at £1 million is too exepensive!.

[/quote]Where did you read that? Because I read this:http://new.pinkun.com/content/ncfc/story.aspx?brand=PINKUNOnline&category=Norwich&tBrand=PinkUnOnline&tCategory=Norwich&itemid=NOED02%20Jun%202006%2012%3A40%3A59%3A727“The figure we were quoted by Spurs last year was £3m but

we haven''t got that sort of money,” said Worthington. “It

isn''t a huge amount of money that we have to work with.”Far be it from me to suggest you might be just making stuff up....

[Mr_Chimp 0]

To be fair Herb, 1m is the figure I''ve seen bandied about recently.

[First Wizard 0]

[quote user="Mook"]

Honestly.

You fall for this one every time Wiz.

[/quote]

As you no doubt fell for buying your season ticket this year Mook!.

Another factor in all this I believe, is Rob Green.

I am convinced, and led to believe by a very reliable source, that City had all but sold him to a lower Premiership team for £2 million quid.

Of course that''s all gone out of the window now, hence no transfer activity.

And there will be precious little activity right up to the big kick off, other than free and loan signings.

Remember where you heard it first.

[chicken 0]

[quote user="1st Wizard"][quote user="Mook"]

Honestly.

You fall for this one every time Wiz.

[/quote]

As you no doubt fell for buying your season ticket this year Mook!.

Another factor in all this I believe, is Rob Green.

I am convinced, and led to believe by a very reliable source, that City had all but sold him to a lower Premiership team for £2 million quid.

Of course that''s all gone out of the window now, hence no transfer activity.

And there will be precious little activity right up to the big kick off, other than free and loan signings.

Remember where you heard it first.

[/quote]Wiz are you a decendant of Nostrodamus?

[chicken 0]

[quote user="Mr_Chimp"]To be fair Herb, 1m is the figure I''ve seen bandied about recently.[/quote]This is interesting. I think Maybe it is that we dont have £3million which may be a signal to say that we cant throw that money at players now. Not only that but we have been and possibly still are interested in Davenport but just not at the money Tottenham are banding about.

[Getting off the fence 0]

Ist Wizard - have you renewed your season ticket?

[mystic megson 0]

[quote user="stephen nobbs"]I was interested to read that a substantial amount of the parachute payment has been earmarked for building a second tier on the City Stand, Mystic Megson. Do you have a reliable source for this information, or is it just a rumour you have heard?[/quote]

I didn''t say it "has been earmarked", but "I wouldn''t be at all surprised if it has".

It''s not a rumour or a "reliable source" (amounts to the same thing really).  It''s an educated guess, an opinion. 

In January ND and Andy Cullen went on Radio Norfolk to announce plans to redevelop the City Stand.  They did not give a start date, but why announce it so publicly if it''s not fairly definite?  The money has to come from somewhere.  It''s the last year of the parachute payments.  Looking at it from their point of view, what would you do?    

Wouldn''t it be ironic if the club has been waiting to gauge the level of season ticket renewals before deciding whether to go ahead with this project?  Is that the sort of reward for "loyalty" we''re really looking for?  If, on the other hand, it has been shelved for the foreseeable future, it would be helpful if they tied up that particular loose end by saying so.

[First Wizard 0]

[quote user="Getting off the fence"]Ist Wizard - have you renewed your season ticket?[/quote]

Irrelevent! ''Getting off the fence'', as I asked the question first , and not to you either. And no, I don''t give a damn if you think I haven''t!.

[Getting off the fence 0]

[quote user="1st Wizard"]

[quote user="Getting off the fence"]Ist Wizard - have you renewed your season ticket?[/quote]

Irrelevent! ''Getting off the fence'', as I asked the question first , and not to you either. And no, I don''t give a damn if you think I haven''t!.

[/quote]

It was simply that I was rather hoping you hadn''t.

[beelsie 0]

Wiz, howcome you''re surprised?  The board and the accounts have been telling us that for the last three years.

[streakey 0]

The old saying is "if  it''s  not broke then don''t  fix it." At the moment the board don''t appear to be doing a lot of  fixing .So does this mean they are not broke or just plain mean ?

[A Load of Squit 6,260]

[quote user="1st Wizard"][quote user="Mook"]

Honestly.

You fall for this one every time Wiz.

[/quote]

As you no doubt fell for buying your season ticket this year Mook!.

Another factor in all this I believe, is Rob Green.

I am convinced, and led to believe by a very reliable source, that City had all but sold him to a lower Premiership team for £2 million quid.

Of course that''s all gone out of the window now, hence no transfer activity.

And there will be precious little activity right up to the big kick off, other than free and loan signings.

Remember where you heard it first.

[/quote]

Can you all judge this statement in context, it comes from the person who said we wouldn''t buy anyone during the last transfer window.

 

[First Wizard 0]

[quote user="Getting off the fence"][quote user="1st Wizard"]

[quote user="Getting off the fence"]Ist Wizard - have you renewed your season ticket?[/quote]

Irrelevent! ''Getting off the fence'', as I asked the question first , and not to you either. And no, I don''t give a damn if you think I haven''t!.

[/quote]

It was simply that I was rather hoping you hadn''t.

[/quote]

Getting Off The Fence:

Firstly, may I in the future refer to you as GOTF please?.

Secondly, why?.

Thirdly, why is it that when I ask difficult and uncomfortable questions, a sudden outbreak of ''wizard bashing'' seems to occur, do the ''bashers'' actually think that the ''problem'' will lessen or go away if they do this?.

I don''t include you as a ''basher'' GOTF, but for your future reference, I point out the NCFC world as I see it, thats all.

[Getting off the fence 0]

[quote user="1st Wizard"][quote user="Getting off the fence"][quote user="1st Wizard"]

[quote user="Getting off the fence"]Ist Wizard - have you renewed your season ticket?[/quote]

Irrelevent! ''Getting off the fence'', as I asked the question first , and not to you either. And no, I don''t give a damn if you think I haven''t!.

[/quote]

It was simply that I was rather hoping you hadn''t.

[/quote]

Getting Off The Fence:

Firstly, may I in the future refer to you as GOTF please?.

Secondly, why?.

Thirdly, why is it that when I ask difficult and uncomfortable questions, a sudden outbreak of ''wizard bashing'' seems to occur, do the ''bashers'' actually think that the ''problem'' will lessen or go away if they do this?.

I don''t include you as a ''basher'' GOTF, but for your future reference, I point out the NCFC world as I see it, thats all.

[/quote]

1. Yes you can call me GOTF. I have been called far worse.

2. Because the overwhelming negativity of some of the fans who attend matches actually makes things worse and certainly reduces my enjoyment. I (possibly wrongly) assume that you are one of the crowd who thinks it amusing to persistently boo a player or to "ironically" celebrate opposition goals. I just don''t hink this should be part of what any fan does and welcome the absence of as many of them (you?) possible.

3. It is not a difficult question although an uncomfortable situation. ie we all know that we are broke. We know that we have very heavy debts - I forget the exact amount but it is in the audited accounts. To finance these we have to ensure that we have money available to pay, otherwise we would have to go into administration. Fees received from transfers are rarely available to go "straight back into the transfer kitty." Finally, given the prudent nature of the club, I would be amazed if there is not some sort of provision for dismissing the manager, which also reduces the amount of money for transfers.

[Bury Yellow 2]

Sorry to have to debate with you again GOTF but where do you get the impression we are broke? Where have you read in the accounts that would justify your statement?

If the two majority shareholders walked away tomorrow and just took with them the money they loaned to the club plus an agreed interest rate - the club would be in a healthy state assets wise mainly because of the land we own and potentially going to sell less what we own in loans. Of course that wouldn''t happen as they would only sell their shares to a high bidder. Anyone got a few million to spare?

Now we know that no ongoing business gets to that position because it continues to invest and trade but to say the club is broke is rather like me saying I have a mortgage of £250,000.00 on a house worth £500,000.00 and stating that I am broke because I owe £250,000.00.

Apologies for simplistic example, but I hope you get my drift.

Finally I do agree that there would be a provison to rid us of Worthy if the board so wished but why would they when he is so highly rated within football and constantly mentioned when managerial vacanies that arise.....not!

[beelsie 0]

Those who live by the sword shall perish by the swotd!!!

[rieg77 0]

[quote user="1st Wizard"][quote user="Mook"]

Honestly.

You fall for this one every time Wiz.

[/quote]

As you no doubt fell for buying your season ticket this year Mook!.

Another factor in all this I believe, is Rob Green.

I am convinced, and led to believe by a very reliable source, that City had all but sold him to a lower Premiership team for £2 million quid.

Of course that''s all gone out of the window now, hence no transfer activity.

And there will be precious little activity right up to the big kick off, other than free and loan signings.

Remember where you heard it first.

[/quote]

But surely if that were true then the club would be better admitting it. It would reduce the pressure on the board and management team. I think we''d all assumed Greeno was off this summer and £2 million plus is a lot of money for us to not have to spend.

[Getting off the fence 0]

[quote user="Bury Yellow"]

Sorry to have to debate with you again GOTF but where do you get the impression we are broke? Where have you read in the accounts that would justify your statement?

If the two majority shareholders walked away tomorrow and just took with them the money they loaned to the club plus an agreed interest rate - the club would be in a healthy state assets wise mainly because of the land we own and potentially going to sell less what we own in loans. Of course that wouldn''t happen as they would only sell their shares to a high bidder. Anyone got a few million to spare?

Now we know that no ongoing business gets to that position because it continues to invest and trade but to say the club is broke is rather like me saying I have a mortgage of £250,000.00 on a house worth £500,000.00 and stating that I am broke because I owe £250,000.00.

Apologies for simplistic example, but I hope you get my drift.

Finally I do agree that there would be a provison to rid us of Worthy if the board so wished but why would they when he is so highly rated within football and constantly mentioned when managerial vacanies that arise.....not!

[/quote]

I think I am right in saying that the last accounts showed debts of around £19 million. You are right that we have assets to cover this - ie the ground- but it is not like a mortgage at all -  we are not in debt because we are buying something, like a house, but because we have spent to much in the past.

If you want an equally simplistic example, we are using our house as security for a prolonged credit card frenzy lasting years - because we own our home we are not bankrupt but we do stand on the verge of losing our home if we are not very careful!

We are having to use this asset (the ground) as security for debts - we will pay interest at over£1 million a year, just to finance the debt (without repaying it) - at the end of it we do not "get anything." If we failed to make the payments, we would be at risk of losing the ground. Although some form of sale and leaseback may be possible, this is likely to be even more expensive than paying the interest and of course, there is no guarantee that whoever bought the ground might decide to turn it into flats etc.

But I take your point, we are not technically bankrupt or "broke" - perhaps "skint" would be a better word for it!

[First Wizard 0]

I''ll stay with the word ''broke'', if its all the same to you G OTF.

The Premier League is worth  nearly £35-40 million this year some sources say, and yet still this damn board of ours pussyfoots around with an an odd £100 grand offer for a ''hoofer'' footballer, and backs a sub standard manager at the helm of our floundering ship.

We had this same arguement during the Huckerby saga, was he worth the gamble etc?, and we all know how that panned out, don''t we.

I say stuff the ''prudence with ambition'' cry, lets hear ''ambition first and second'' instead. If the money isn''t there, which I believe it isn''t, then borrow it and go for broke.

Hell, we''re already there in my honest opinion!.